Equality For Thai Wives

[mrbojangles]

As the wife and i aren't in the country, we can't offer support. But can give you our best wishes. It'll be a long haul but may benefit husbands in the future.

Am i right in thinking that Farang wives don't have to jump through the same hoops? If so. it is clearly discrimination and hopefully the new PM who was educated outside of Thailand, will be well aware of this.

Edited December 26, 2008 by mrbojangles

[Kharzi]

Immigration rules develop according to trends and reflect govt policy in protecting what they perceive to be in the national interest.

The popularity of Thai women among farang men needs no comment and leads to a migratory trend which is perhaps unique in the world. Coupled with the relative low cost of living it has given rise to a significant presence of immigrant men numbered in the thousands. Many are doubtless well intentioned individuals with reasonable incomes but anecdotal evidence suggests many are not whose presence could be considered as undesirable but they nevertheless seek to remain in Thailand on the only basis available to them, as foreign spouses. The ratio of male to female foreign spouses in Thailand is so overwhelmingly in favour of the former that consideration of the latter is utterly irrelevant.

Therefore, to treat them equally under the law would be naive at best and at worst perhaps just plain stupid. To relax current legislation and allow parity with indigenous spouses would simply open the floodgates to the less desirable falang who otherwise could not hope to meet the immigration requirements - marriages of convenience would increase exponentially.

Whilst some may regard this as undue discrimination it is in fact no more selective than many other countries who also exclude simply on the basis of failure to meet economic criteria.

The status quo is quite sensible and defensible and should not be altered just to accommodate impecunious farang who have no pot to piss in either here in Thailand or elsewhere.

[oceano]

Immigration rules develop according to trends and reflect govt policy in protecting what they perceive to be in the national interest.

The popularity of Thai women among farang men needs no comment and leads to a migratory trend which is perhaps unique in the world. Coupled with the relative low cost of living it has given rise to a significant presence of immigrant men numbered in the thousands. Many are doubtless well intentioned individuals with reasonable incomes but anecdotal evidence suggests many are not whose presence could be considered as undesirable but they nevertheless seek to remain in Thailand on the only basis available to them, as foreign spouses. The ratio of male to female foreign spouses in Thailand is so overwhelmingly in favour of the former that consideration of the latter is utterly irrelevant.

Therefore, to treat them equally under the law would be naive at best and at worst perhaps just plain stupid. To relax current legislation and allow parity with indigenous spouses would simply open the floodgates to the less desirable falang who otherwise could not hope to meet the immigration requirements - marriages of convenience would increase exponentially.

Whilst some may regard this as undue discrimination it is in fact no more selective than many other countries who also exclude simply on the basis of failure to meet economic criteria.

The status quo is quite sensible and defensible and should not be altered just to accommodate impecunious farang who have no pot to piss in either here in Thailand or elsewhere.

Every time at the end this:

You must be rich for stay in thailand: pls tell me how much money have an impecunious farang( that you write like an insult for people have not a lot of money), because i know very bad guy that they can piss everywere in the world and i know very good guy that they have 40.000 bath per month.

So one time we can decide who can live in thailand and who cannot live in thailand, give us from whic income, for you, someone is not an impecunious farang.

Then if someone is an impecunious farang we make action against him for send him away from thailand.

Then again is important make something all as group...

OPS you talk like you are a very rich man...why dont buy some house in Dubai i have many whit my agent, the price is from 700.000 us $, im sure you can buy many and piss in the desert.

ciao

Edited December 26, 2008 by oceano

[opalhort]

I do have a problem with the topic title "equality for Thai wives".

Thai wives married to foreigners have now exactly the same rights as any other Thai citizen.

In the past, I think until 15 or so years ago, a Thai wife of a foreigner had no land rights and a child of a mixed marriage had to take the nationality of the father, but all this has changed.

The only discrimination I see is that a foreign woman married to a Thai husband has less visa problems compared to a foreign husband married to a Thai wife.

This is somehow understandable if you understand the Thai mindset:

The husband is the head of the household and he is supposed to provide for his family.

opalhort

[CosmicSurfer]

To relax current legislation and allow parity with indigenous spouses would simply open the floodgates to the less desirable falang who otherwise could not hope to meet the immigration requirements - marriages of convenience would increase exponentially.

Whilst some may regard this as undue discrimination it is in fact no more selective than many other countries who also exclude simply on the basis of failure to meet economic criteria.

In other countries they don't dictate what is love, or how a family chooses to constitute itself, or ascribe gender roles to family support.

Also, in other countries, the Immigration authorities actually verify that marriages are real, and not strictly for convenience....

But after 3-5 years of Temporary "Residency Status", the spouse would qualify automatically for permanent status.

None of this One Year Maximum Non-residency BullSh-T.

CS

Edited December 26, 2008 by CosmicSurfer

[CosmicSurfer]

This is somehow understandable if you understand the Thai mindset:

The husband is the head of the household and he is supposed to provide for his family.

opalhort

And the Taliban mindset is to beat their wives and deny them any education at all.

Or the Mindset of those that practise Female cirumcision...

Or the Saudi mindset that denies their woman the right to Vote... or Drive a car... or leave their homes... or talk to a male that is not one of their family members...

Or Forced arranged marriages...

Or the father in the USA who killed his 2 daughters for dressing in western clothes and wanting to date boys.

Are we suppossed to sit back and accept these "mindsets" also?

Bad is bad.. Cultures Must change... Time Changes... People change.

The only negative mindset is that Thai Women are NOT Equal to men in deciding how to organize their families... and who would be the "Bread Winner"...

Is a Thai Woman any less capable to take care of her family than a farang woman in the west?

Or are they only capable, after their husbands are forced to leave the country, leaving no one to help around the house and take care of the kids, while the Woman is following her chosen career.. that she spent years educating herself for....

But now.. she must still work and still take care of her family, but without any help from her Stay-at-Home Husband.. who pulled his weight, just as a Stay-at-Home Wife (housewife) pulls her weight ... but now, more of her income must go to a care-giver.. who doesn't have the same motivation to provide adequate loving care that her husband had.

I don't believe it... 2009 is around the corner, and we are still fighting the same battle about the equality of genders... of People....

and not doing it with Thais... but other Westerners....

Some things never change

CS

Edited December 26, 2008 by CosmicSurfer

[mommysboy]

Great idea.

So when Do I get the 50% rebate?

[opalhort]

CS

I think you should take your issue (cause?) to an international forum devoted to gender equality and I don't think that the Thai Visa forum is the right place.

Thailand does have gender equality as far as Thai citizens are concerned. This is, as far as I know, manifested in the current and previous two or three constitutions.

opalhort

[garyh]

This is somehow understandable if you understand the Thai mindset:

The husband is the head of the household and he is supposed to provide for his family.

opalhort

And the Taliban mindset is to beat their wives and deny them any education at all.

Or the Mindset of those that practise Female cirumcision...

Or the Saudi mindset that denies their woman the right to Vote... or Drive a car... or leave their homes... or talk to a male that is not one of their family members...

Or Forced arranged marriages...

Or the father in the USA who killed his 2 daughters for dressing in western clothes and wanting to date boys.

Are we suppossed to sit back and accept these "mindsets" also?

Bad is bad.. Cultures Must change... Time Changes... People change.

The only negative mindset is that Thai Women are NOT Equal to men in deciding how to organize their families... and who would be the "Bread Winner"...

Is a Thai Woman any less capable to take care of her family than a farang woman in the west?

Or are they only capable, after their husbands are forced to leave the country, leaving no one to help around the house and take care of the kids, while the Woman is following her chosen career.. that she spent years educating herself for....

But now.. she must still work and still take care of her family, but without any help from her Stay-at-Home Husband.. who pulled his weight, just as a Stay-at-Home Wife (housewife) pulls her weight ... but now, more of her income must go to a care-giver.. who doesn't have the same motivation to provide adequate loving care that her husband had.

I don't believe it... 2009 is around the corner, and we are still fighting the same battle about the equality of genders... of People....

and not doing it with Thais... but other Westerners....

Some things never change

CS

So are are you suggestion Farang husbands are doing this to their Thai wives in Thailand?

What you may be better to focus your energy on is how Thai husbands can beat there Thai wives and the police won't act on it in most cases.

[MJP]

My apologies, I get it now.

So, if they win, does this mean I won't have to go across the border every three months and worse still fly to Blighty once a year (the border trips are okay by me, but being forced to go to Blighty is an unreasonably cruel punishment and should be against my human rights).

If you are married to a Thai you can do that now. If you can meet the income of 40,000 baht per month or 400,000 baht in the bank for 60 days requirement you can apply at immigration.

Hey Joe,

That's great. Does this mean I don't have to fly to Blighty once a year or a don't have to do the border jump every three months or both?

Thanks in advance.

[TJAN]

My apologies, I get it now.

So, if they win, does this mean I won't have to go across the border every three months and worse still fly to Blighty once a year (the border trips are okay by me, but being forced to go to Blighty is an unreasonably cruel punishment and should be against my human rights).

I am married to a Thai wife,and I only have to report to Immigration every 3 months no bordercrossing,and once a year I apply for a 1 year visa and I dont have to leave Thailand.

I fly back to my country every year to keep my medicalinsurance alive not because of my visa.

[CosmicSurfer]

Well,

I Started a new Thread > 'equality For Thai Wives' Organizing Meeting, RSVP here

and so Far NOBODY has RSVPed....

Maybe because some Mod moved it into the Main "General" forum....

Maybe my mistake that I didn't think of linking the invite to this thread before, so I'm doing it now....

But if I haven't received any RSVPs by 7am tommorow (Sunday), I'm afraid the meeting will be cancelled.

I'm out of the house all day, and no way to check for answers.

Up2U

CS

[CosmicSurfer]

Well,

I Started a new Thread > 'equality For Thai Wives' Organizing Meeting, RSVP here

and so Far NOBODY has RSVPed....

Maybe because some Mod moved it into the Main "General" forum....

Maybe my mistake that I didn't think of linking the invite to this thread before, so I'm doing it now....

But if I haven't received any RSVPs by 7am tomorrow (Sunday), I'm afraid the meeting will be cancelled.

I'm out of the house all day, and no way to check for answers.

Up2U

CS

[Martian]

#1 - This forum isn't only for Thai Visas, it is about all subjects, hence the different sections and this post is properly poistioned in my opinion.

#2 - CS is merely looking for help and support in the pursuit of seeing to it that Thai women who have foreign husbands are afforded equal opportunity (rights) to live together with their husband/family in Thailand just as a Thai man with a foreign wife.

Even if they apply the same new rules (Thai women with a foreign husband) for the Thai man with a foreign wife instead of vice-versa, it will be equality under the law.

If you aren't intelligent enough to recognize the specific intention and grounds for the action, then butt out and go play your games on some other thread...or even better on some other forum.

Regards,

Martian

[MJP]

My apologies, I get it now.

So, if they win, does this mean I won't have to go across the border every three months and worse still fly to Blighty once a year (the border trips are okay by me, but being forced to go to Blighty is an unreasonably cruel punishment and should be against my human rights).

I am married to a Thai wife,and I only have to report to Immigration every 3 months no bordercrossing,and once a year I apply for a 1 year visa and I dont have to leave Thailand.

I fly back to my country every year to keep my medicalinsurance alive not because of my visa.

I've got to get my head around this, thanks.

If you're British, you lose free NHS (National Health Service) after 3 months of being out of the country.

This is good news to me. Do you have to enter Thailand on a specific visa? I have a Non-immigration 'O' category.

[ubonjoe]

My apologies, I get it now.

So, if they win, does this mean I won't have to go across the border every three months and worse still fly to Blighty once a year (the border trips are okay by me, but being forced to go to Blighty is an unreasonably cruel punishment and should be against my human rights).

I am married to a Thai wife,and I only have to report to Immigration every 3 months no bordercrossing,and once a year I apply for a 1 year visa and I dont have to leave Thailand.

I fly back to my country every year to keep my medicalinsurance alive not because of my visa.

I've got to get my head around this, thanks.

If you're British, you lose free NHS (National Health Service) after 3 months of being out of the country.

This is good news to me. Do you have to enter Thailand on a specific visa? I have a Non-immigration 'O' category.

Your non-o is the perfect visa to get the extension but any non immigrant can be extended.

It can even be done with a tourist visa or a visa exempt entry that has 21 days remaing by doing a change of visa status at immigraion.

See 2.18 of this police order for information.

LinK: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/post-a70477-New-Immigration-Rules-November-2008.html

[mrtoad]

CS

I think you should take your issue (cause?) to an international forum devoted to gender equality and I don't think that the Thai Visa forum is the right place.

Thailand does have gender equality as far as Thai citizens are concerned. This is, as far as I know, manifested in the current and previous two or three constitutions.

opalhort

Are you sure? And regardless of what is written in the constitution, it is more about how it is upheld in society.

I amy be wrong, but if a Farang female marries a Thai male then the Visa issues are pretty easy, but it's not the same for a Farang male marrying a Thai female. I may be off topic though, but that would clearly be gender discrimination.

[junkofdavid2]

If it's true (?) that a lot of the Isaan and/or northeast region's economy is dependent on farang husbands, maybe it'd be a good idea to bring this up with the new Democrat government who painfully lacks support in that region... maybe they'll implement it as a strategy to win over the said voters.

.

[CosmicSurfer]

Are you sure? And regardless of what is written in the constitution, it is more about how it is upheld in society.

I amy be wrong, but if a Farang female marries a Thai male then the Visa issues are pretty easy, but it's not the same for a Farang male marrying a Thai female. I may be off topic though, but that would clearly be gender discrimination.

No, you're not wrong...

You have it Exactly Right.

CS

Edited December 27, 2008 by CosmicSurfer

[mrtoad]

Are you sure? And regardless of what is written in the constitution, it is more about how it is upheld in society.

I amy be wrong, but if a Farang female marries a Thai male then the Visa issues are pretty easy, but it's not the same for a Farang male marrying a Thai female. I may be off topic though, but that would clearly be gender discrimination.

No, you're not wrong...

You have it Exactly Right.

CS

Well, I think other than Opalhort who is a fully paid up member of the saffron tinted glasses and yellow shirt brigade, most people would see this as a justified cause.

Hope it goes well.

[tijnebijn]

I try...everybody are interested in different problem whit different visa or different situation but IMPORTANT is that someone try to put all together for make something better for us. So if all us we don’t think about our personal problem now and we support this idea, later all together we can make different action for other problem that many of us we have. PLS see this like a 1st step, many big community of expat in the world can talk whit the government because they are all together and they ask like a big group of people. In Thailand we are all "alone" and nobody listen us. So cosmic and Joe, if you understand what I mean pls make this and write in good English this: A big group of expat farang whit good manner and good idea for better living have a big powerful! I hope we can make this because is the first time I see someone make something "all together" and I see in south America and in Africa Italian community very powerful because they are a group.

ciao

I agree with your statement . It is obvious there is no farang power base in Thailand like

almost all foreigners have in the West and elsewhere ( except the business community ) . The Italians come from the same

country , farang in Thailand are from all over the globe , so I'm not sure if you can compare those .

But this could be the main reason why there is not such a thing in Thailand , farang are too diverse ,

can't compare it with Italians , Turks or Poles .

Not that it could't be achieved , but it will take time .

For the arguments in this thread I think it will take time foreign husbands and their Thai wifes will support this cause .

There should be set up something for the long period , short period I doubt the OP will get enough support ,

and doubt it will work towards its goal .

Seeking for senior legal advise should be the first step , and if enough people unite it will gain strength

in the process , when its gaining ground in this bureaucracy you can be sure more and more farang are going

out and give their support to keep it going .

Most prefer to look the cat out of the tree , because there is no expertise on a personal matter and fear thing

could get even worse , so trust is the word what comes in mind if the OP or anyone wants to get a support base .

Like Thaivisa itself , it takes some time for people to trust this forum its members and policies before they

get involved a little deeper .

The topic of this thread could be massive if the owners of many Thai forums unite and ask their members

to support such a goal instead of the OP ( with the best intensions ) , that in some way is the online farang commutiny,

which reaches everywhere to everyone , but are they willing to support something thats perhaps not in their

personal interest or a negative plus for their brand name , I serieusly doubt they will be .... But it will be the best bet

to get anywhere .....( and perfect way to ask for signatures for example to support )

Guess many are more willing to supprt something that is already an established community or institution , I will .

Clearly some more influential people need to get involved , or support it and get those in touch with people

who actually know more , or are those contacts available already ?

Edited December 27, 2008 by tijnebijn

[MiG16]

moving this to the visa section

(as requested)

I know some of the discussion is not strictly visa related, but since it is linked to other threads being discussed in that sub-forum, hopefully it serves the purpose.

[mrbojangles]

#1 - This forum isn't only for Thai Visas, it is about all subjects, hence the different sections and this post is properly poistioned in my opinion.

#2 - CS is merely looking for help and support in the pursuit of seeing to it that Thai women who have foreign husbands are afforded equal opportunity (rights) to live together with their husband/family in Thailand just as a Thai man with a foreign wife.

Even if they apply the same new rules (Thai women with a foreign husband) for the Thai man with a foreign wife instead of vice-versa, it will be equality under the law.

If you aren't intelligent enough to recognize the specific intention and grounds for the action, then butt out and go play your games on some other thread...or even better on some other forum.

Regards,

Martian

Well said Martian

[mrtoad]

moving this to the visa section

(as requested)

I know some of the discussion is not strictly visa related, but since it is linked to other threads being discussed in that sub-forum, hopefully it serves the purpose.

Mmm, the only problem is, that this is an important subject, and it may get lost in this sub forum. At least in General it will get more attention, which it deserves.

[ubonjoe]

Well,

I Started a new Thread > 'equality For Thai Wives' Organizing Meeting, RSVP here

and so Far NOBODY has RSVPed....

Maybe because some Mod moved it into the Main "General" forum....

Maybe my mistake that I didn't think of linking the invite to this thread before, so I'm doing it now....

But if I haven't received any RSVPs by 7am tomorrow (Sunday), I'm afraid the meeting will be cancelled.

I'm out of the house all day, and no way to check for answers.

Up2U

CS

It has been move back to this forum.

[ubonjoe]

Well,

I Started a new Thread > 'equality For Thai Wives' Organizing Meeting, RSVP here

and so Far NOBODY has RSVPed....

Maybe because some Mod moved it into the Main "General" forum....

Maybe my mistake that I didn't think of linking the invite to this thread before, so I'm doing it now....

But if I haven't received any RSVPs by 7am tommorow (Sunday), I'm afraid the meeting will be cancelled.

I'm out of the house all day, and no way to check for answers.

Up2U

CS

It has been moved back to this forum.

[opalhort]

I amy be wrong, but if a Farang female marries a Thai male then the Visa issues are pretty easy, but it's not the same for a Farang male marrying a Thai female. I may be off topic though, but that would clearly be gender discrimination.

You are correct. It is gender discrimination, but it is directed at the farangs married to Thai spouses.

This is the reason why I had problems with the topic title.

Let's be realistic: A petition as suggested (if it succeeds) would more likely than not make life more difficult for foreign females married to Thai husbands, rather than improve our situation.

Is there gender equality in the west? Who has it easier to obtain a visa for EU/US - a Thai husband of a foreign wife or a Thai wife of a foreign husband?

opalhort

[Mario2008]

You are correct. It is gender discrimination, but it is directed at the farangs married to Thai spouses.

opalhort

There are more ways to look at this. One human right is the right to family live, that one is violated in combination with gender discrimination. The Thai womans right on family live are not equal to the Thai mans right to family live.

[mrtoad]

I amy be wrong, but if a Farang female marries a Thai male then the Visa issues are pretty easy, but it's not the same for a Farang male marrying a Thai female. I may be off topic though, but that would clearly be gender discrimination.

You are correct. It is gender discrimination, but it is directed at the farangs married to Thai spouses.

This is the reason why I had problems with the topic title.

Let's be realistic: A petition as suggested (if it succeeds) would more likely than not make life more difficult for foreign females married to Thai husbands, rather than improve our situation.

Is there gender equality in the west? Who has it easier to obtain a visa for EU/US - a Thai husband of a foreign wife or a Thai wife of a foreign husband?

opalhort

I think there is a lot less gender discrimination in the EU and the US, because the laws regarding discrimination are that much tougher.

The reason that the title is the way it is, is because the people who are actually being discriminated against are in fact the Thai wives with foreign husbands. It is irrelevant about the Farang being discriminated against.

As I'm feeling rather helpful today, there does seem to be a little bit of irony in your discomfort regrading this issue, so I will quote this

Today I sent a message to him as follows:

"Dear Khun Abhisit,

First please kindly allow me to congratulate you for becoming the new prime minister of Thailand. I dare say the vast majority of the foreign community including myself, living in Thailand very much welcomes your appointment as prime minister.

As a foreigner (German) who has been living legally here for the past 23 years, now married for 15 years and have a 14 year old son, I do have some questions / requests for you to consider helping us make our life easier, more secure and more predictable.

1) Why do I still have to go through the process of annual visa renewals after all those years (I do not qualify for permanent residence status because of the very tough income requirements)?

2) The requirements for visa renewals keep changing frequently and I am never sure if I will still qualify for a renewal the next year, which makes me and my Thai family feel very insecure. Case in point being the recent Police order 777/2551 which was issued on 25.11.2551 and came into force on the same day. Though it did not affect me directly, the new rules caused hardship for many Thai families with a foreign husband / father.

3) I do understand that Thailand has to promote tourism and at the same time prevent foreigners from abusing the visa system and working in Thailand illegally (sad to say, but many foreigners have and still do abuse the system), but for long term staying foreigners with a Thai family, life should be made easier and more secure. Other countries can do it, so why not Thailand as well?

Note: we do have a small family run plant export company (I do have a work permit) which provides us with an income to live in Thailand comfortably but does not meet my personal income requirements as stipulated by immigration laws.

I hope, Khun Abhisit that in the near future you will be able to address issues which are of concern for the foreign community living in Thailand.

For now of course your first priority should be to re-unite the population of Thailand and get the economy back up and running.

Best regards

(Opalhort)"

Surely, you should be a sign up for this meeting? If you think it will cause more problems for foreigner wives married to Thais, why did you have the conviction to right to Abahsit regarding effectively the same thing?

[ubonjoe]

I amy be wrong, but if a Farang female marries a Thai male then the Visa issues are pretty easy, but it's not the same for a Farang male marrying a Thai female. I may be off topic though, but that would clearly be gender discrimination.

You are correct. It is gender discrimination, but it is directed at the farangs married to Thai spouses.

This is the reason why I had problems with the topic title.

Let's be realistic: A petition as suggested (if it succeeds) would more likely than not make life more difficult for foreign females married to Thai husbands, rather than improve our situation.

Is there gender equality in the west? Who has it easier to obtain a visa for EU/US - a Thai husband of a foreign wife or a Thai wife of a foreign husband?

opalhort

The topic titile is not quite what it should of been after it was moved to the general forum. That is why I quickley made a post telling what it was all about with a link.

All this has been covered in the other topics mentioned.

In the example you gave about a visa to EU/US. They are both the same. But to get a tourist visa to the States very very hard for both.