Democrats To Form New Coalition Government

[jasreeve17]

One of the participants advised us to read an article in a British weekly. I did, and if this article is correct and if I understood this article correct, there is much bigger power struggle going on behind the scenes than we know and realise. But like the same member mentioned we can not discus it. And that's a shame.

So maybe we better inform ourself by the foreign press.

There was nothing new in that article (I believe that CMSally kindly linked it), which is why I can't understand the really heavy pro PAD supporters viewpoint and pro-democracy pretence (though their liking for a new 'voting' system is telling).

Ultimately, they look to have got their wish and Abhisit will be PM. Beyond that? The big question is still unclear; how will Thai politics be allowed to evolve? The only certainty is personnel change. I really hope that Abhisit is as good as they tell me, and he is strong too - he'll need to be. He may turn out to be the answer.

[Plus]

Dems looks like they are going to lose this one but they put up quite a show nevertheless, scared bejesus out of Thaksin folks, if only for a day.

The faster they dissolve the house the better, it looks inevitable whoever forms the government, especially when Const Court reviews party list MP/interim PM status.

Unfortunately it's not simply about forming the government. It's also a last ditch effort to save Thaksin's ass one way or another, even if the govt can do very little for him at the moment he can't let it go yet.

Otherwise the govt seat is too hot for anyone to handle - it will get blamed for mishandling the economy and there's little chance of getting the hands on the budget before the elections that are just around the corner.

Phue Thai would be wise to sit it out and run on "we can save you asses" platform, Dems won't have anything to show in two-three months anyway. Same holds true for Democrats - PT is going to commit political suicide through its own incompetence and lack of support among the businesses and bureacrats.

[animatic]

termsak Posted Today, 2008-12-08 19:47:21

Even more incredible, we have a couple of Farang in here that support this criminal and his puppets. Even believing that he is innocent and the victim of all this...

I do not think that Thaksin is innocent. I think that he is pretty much the same as every other politician in Thailand when it comes to graft and corruption, but is being singled out because of his popularity with the poor.

He is not a good guy, but neither are the people who are out to ruin him. Fair is fair.

Since you put it this way, we seem to share the same view.

But he is not being singled out because of his popularity with the poor. He is being singled out because of his extraordinary greed and the thought of being above anything and anybody...I repeat, anybody. Power just made him change. I knew him and his family before he became PM, as did Chamlong and Sonthi. As another poster pointed out, he really had the opportunity to become one of the finest PM's ever. Even I voted for him! Look what happened? Never in Thai politics has one single person managed to split the country in two as he did. I am a patriot, and I cannot accept this. This is what makes him "special" and thus singled out. Taking him down is going to take a long time and a lot have to be sacrificed, but I believe it's worth it. Some of the stuff going on against him is not fair I agree, but I have to say that he brought it on himself. He has nobody else to blame.

Well put post. And one with a true before after perspective.

It really is a shame about him.

I was able to view the tail end of his transition, and it was clear,

the pressure was too much for him and he bent badly.

Comparing many of his public pronouncements you can see a transition period,

and then a rapid decent. yes he had such potential.

But a graphic case of Lord Acton's axiom:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Great men are almost always bad men."

John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton (1834–1902).

leave us not forget also William Pitt, the Elder,

The Earl of Chatham and British Prime Minister from 1766 to 1778,

in a speech to the UK House of Lords in 1770:

"Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it"

Those aspiring to power never seem to remember this.

A hair shirt often comes in handy for those at the top.

Edited December 8, 2008 by animatic

[ThaiPauly]

Personally, (not that I have any influence obviously)...I would LOVE to see the Dems get a chance to run the country.

My only fear is that they will be hostages to the Newin Group....but what else can they do but welcome them with open arms?

The Dems will probably not get another chance like this for a long time ,,but in which time they will have to convince everyone outside of BK that they DO CARE about the rural poor and they are NOT JUST the party for the BK elite.

I rate Abhist as a smart guy...much smarter than the last 2 PM's......he looks and acts the part of a PM.....I hope they give him a shot at it.

Watching the various parties over the last few days I have been very impressed by the Dems...and equally unimpressed with the other side.

I read in the BK Post today that Business Leaders favour the Dems.

I hope that they get their chance to shine and bring unity to this land

[cmsally]

termsak Posted Today, 2008-12-08 19:47:21

Even more incredible, we have a couple of Farang in here that support this criminal and his puppets. Even believing that he is innocent and the victim of all this...

I do not think that Thaksin is innocent. I think that he is pretty much the same as every other politician in Thailand when it comes to graft and corruption, but is being singled out because of his popularity with the poor.

He is not a good guy, but neither are the people who are out to ruin him. Fair is fair.

Since you put it this way, we seem to share the same view.

But he is not being singled out because of his popularity with the poor. He is being singled out because of his extraordinary greed and the thought of being above anything and anybody...I repeat, anybody. Power just made him change. I knew him and his family before he became PM, as did Chamlong and Sonthi. As another poster pointed out, he really had the opportunity to become one of the finest PM's ever. Even I voted for him! Look what happened? Never in Thai politics has one single person managed to split the country in two as he did. I am a patriot, and I cannot accept this. This is what makes him "special" and thus singled out. Taking him down is going to take a long time and a lot have to be sacrificed, but I believe it's worth it. Some of the stuff going on against him is not fair I agree, but I have to say that he brought it on himself. He has nobody else to blame.

Although partly right , that is by no means the whole story.

Unfortunately, if the removal of Thaksin occurs I don't exactly see the future as particularly bright. It will just result in the placing of obstacles to make sure no one such as him rises again.

The question is when those obstacles are in place what type of society and political system does this result in.

[Jingthing]

OK, so its a bad thing to have a constitution that prevents a total dictator from ever emerging again in Thailand. That's real interesting.

Edited December 8, 2008 by Jingthing

[henryalleman]

If the old prophesy is true( and we all know that Thai people believe fortune telling). Than its very easy to understand why Thaksin will do everything to grab power again, and he will never give up his ambitions to become Numero Uno whatever the costs.

We may never forget THIS IS THAILAND.

[henryalleman]

Personally, (not that I have any influence obviously)...I would LOVE to see the Dems get a chance to run the country.

My only fear is that they will be hostages to the Newin Group....but what else can they do but welcome them with open arms?

The Dems will probably not get another chance like this for a long time ,,but in which time they will have to convince everyone outside of BK that they DO CARE about the rural poor and they are NOT JUST the party for the BK elite.

I rate Abhist as a smart guy...much smarter than the last 2 PM's......he looks and acts the part of a PM.....I hope they give him a shot at it.

Watching the various parties over the last few days I have been very impressed by the Dems...and equally unimpressed with the other side.

I read in the BK Post today that Business Leaders favour the Dems.

I hope that they get their chance to shine and bring unity to this land

maybe thats why the SET had an excellent day today, green numbers all over.

[Wiresok]

I hope the one-eyed thai judiciary can realise the problems they are causing, hopefully before any more violence.

In the Uk the green party have hijacked stanstead airport with a sit in on the runway.

The police soon cleared them out, supportive of the democratically elected government.

The talksport radio presenter described them as terrorists,.

Lets now see if the english courts overthrow the democratically elected goverment.

There where in total 30 protesters in Standsted, and they protest against an extension of the airport. Those 30 protesters did not demonstrate against an corrupt government.

30 protesters not thousands, so its a peace of cake to pick them up.

you compare apples with egs

Cut through airport perimiter fence.

Occupied runway thus closing airport.

Protesting against a policy of the democratically elected government.

57 people arrested and in custody.

Hijackers are hijackers whatever their driver.

Democratically elected government remains in power.

The place for debate is in the elected house by the elected representatives of the people.

By the way, many people would argue the government is corrupt, but anarchy not acceptable.

[sriracha john]

to make sure no one such as him rises again.

That would be a supreme blessing to this Nation.

Edited December 8, 2008 by sriracha john

[Wiresok]

Forget Abhisit, he's a draft dodger !

Just remember the screw up caused by the last "elected" draft dodger George W Bush.

Technically, Bush wasn't a draft dodger. Bill Clinton however was...

GWB escaped by going to the national guard where he was more absent than present, there where even took disciplinary action against him. This I call dodging.

BTW what serving in the military has to do with being a good politician and ruling the country. Maggie never served in the army.

maggie thatcher wasn't expected to serve in the forces.

she was happy kids milk snatching.

george bush was a draft dodger, but all the sons and daughters of the american people, without connections, got called up.

[henryalleman]

Forget Abhisit, he's a draft dodger !

Just remember the screw up caused by the last "elected" draft dodger George W Bush.

Technically, Bush wasn't a draft dodger. Bill Clinton however was...

GWB escaped by going to the national guard where he was more absent than present, there where even took disciplinary action against him. This I call dodging.

BTW what serving in the military has to do with being a good politician and ruling the country. Maggie never served in the army.

maggie thatcher wasn't expected to serve in the forces.

she was happy kids milk snatching.

george bush was a draft dodger, but all the sons and daughters of the american people, without connections, got called up.

Proving that the US is not such great democracy as they pretend to be, basicly not so much different than Thailand. Both nations are ruled by greed and corruption? Isn't Mr. Vice president.

[Wiresok]

The corrupt Thai courts are demanding assurances from the militant, armed Paramilitary, terrorist ,fascist PAD ; and their Democrat Party instrument, that the reported 40m baht per head for the MP's to switch, will not be sourced from the their slush fund.

And again, do you have any evidence for your repeated claim, on this and other threads, that the PAD are the militant arm of the Democrats, or that the Democratic Party is an instrument of the PAD, as above. I think not ... or you would surely have posted it ? You damage the IMO-justifiable claim, that the two have some similar aims, and also your own credibility, by extending it further than justified by the facts available.

Any evidence of 40m Baht bribes, should perhaps better be sent to the E.C. or media, as it would be evidence of corruption, but where is the TRT-equivalent of the PAD, to blow the whistle when needed, on this and on corruption during the military-appointed government ?

. If you are so eductaed have you read the latest edition of the Economist, or better still read bangkok Pundit or Thai crisis or even better Absolutely bangkok and many others good websites

Has the Economist been canned in Thailand this week due to its cover story?

If so, you're not missing much, there's little new information in that story.

I thought the news, announced in the Economist article, that "police were suspected of hundreds of extra-judicial killings" in the war on drugs, was unusually sloppy reporting of what are generally accepted to have been 3,000 deaths ! But then it was in a paragraph which claimed that this was "his gravest abuse", talking about Thaksin, and "not entirely his fault". How many deaths would have been necessary, before the Economist condemned it outright, one wonders ?

The article also failed entirely to mention Thaksin's having dissolved parliament himself, then rigged the 2006-election & had it annulled by the E.C., prior to the 2006-coup, so it was hardly a full analysis of recent political-events.

But it was good, in that it said much which can't be said here, and called for increased freedom-of-information as a necessary part of any solution to the current situation.

Well done on responding.

You may not realise it but in doing so you have served democracy and free speech.Well done.

Sadly it seems I have a cross thread stalker, but as a seeker of truth and justice so be it.

Is it not true that for years now PAD/Dems have decried the thai courts as corrupt.

As you will know from my previous posts, I agree, the thai courts are corrupt.

Now I am intrigued, as a seeker of truth and justice, how , following the replacement of elected judges with appointed judges, thePAD/Dems now consider the judiciary lilly white, after they have been saying for years the courts are corrupt..

All I have seen is a barrage of one-eyed,unilateral,judgements against the democratically elected government.

So will the PAD/Dems please tell us after years of saying the courts are corrupt, why they are not corrupt.

Credibility on the line.

faschist PAD,militant PAD, armed PAD paramilitaries, anti-government terrorists!...all reported here on tv, and by the international media.

Are you denying the PAD are not armed, or hijackers, or terrorist!!

The dems know what they have got into.

[wayfarer108]

For years now the PAD faschists and their Democrat instrument have been saying the thai coiurts are corrupt.

All the time, everyday, day in day out the thai courts are corrupt.

Now after the greatest judicial onslought to 3 times bring down the democratically elected government , the faschist PAD and their democratic instrument suddenly flip 180 degrees and all of a sudden the thai courts , the faschist PAD, and their democratic instrument are clean.

LOL

You have claimed for years the thai courts are corrupt, the burden of proof is with you, the militant, armed paramilitary, unelected, anti-government terrorist, fashist PAD, to prove they are not.

For years you have caimed the thai courts to be corrupt, now prove they are clean of face the charge of hypocites!!

One could also demonstrate the reverse. When the courts didn't convict Thaksin of concealing wealth and other charges, the TRT/PPP/Thaksinistas said this proved Thaksin was legal and spotless. Then when he does get a conviction, suddenly the court isn't legal. You can't have it both ways.

[wayfarer108]

If the old prophesy is true( and we all know that Thai people believe fortune telling). Than its very easy to understand why Thaksin will do everything to grab power again, and he will never give up his ambitions to become Numero Uno whatever the costs.

We may never forget THIS IS THAILAND.

Stating the obvious, with the corollary question: So what? I don't think you really understand your last statement.

[sriracha john]

An MP source in the faction headed by Newin Chidchob said Puea Thai Party, backed by ousted PM Thaksin Shinawatra, had also re-sorted to new tactics to pressure MPs to leave the Democrat-led coalition.

"In some constituencies in northeastern provinces, villagers were asked to seal off the houses of MPs which have defected to the other camp [following the disbanding of ruling PPP]," the source said.

- The Nation / 2008-12-09

[sriracha john]

^ New tactic, but same old Thaksin intimidation.

[Wiresok]

For years now the PAD faschists and their Democrat instrument have been saying the thai coiurts are corrupt.

All the time, everyday, day in day out the thai courts are corrupt.

Now after the greatest judicial onslought to 3 times bring down the democratically elected government , the faschist PAD and their democratic instrument suddenly flip 180 degrees and all of a sudden the thai courts , the faschist PAD, and their democratic instrument are clean.

LOL

You have claimed for years the thai courts are corrupt, the burden of proof is with you, the militant, armed paramilitary, unelected, anti-government terrorist, fashist PAD, to prove they are not.

For years you have caimed the thai courts to be corrupt, now prove they are clean of face the charge of hypocites!!

Your hero Mr Thaksin seemed to have faith in the court ruling in his favour on share concealment... (turns out the maid was unusually rich, not him;)

He also liked the previous EC rulings (before they were rightfully tossed in jail for being in his pocket)... The democratic dictator and his cronies don't seem to like other rulings tho.. (go figure)

Anyone supporting a 'democratic' Govt who's top priority is to REMOVE vote-fraud rules needs to get their head out of the Economist (the printed version of FOX/Faux news)

You are mistaken.

As a seeker of truth and justice I have to remove all the emmotive stuff, and the personalities, and deal with the issues in an immotive fair and impartial way.

All you do is demonstrate your view that the thai courts have been corrupt for years.

So tell us all why we should believe the courts are clean now.

One person one vote, or do you subscribe to its removal in line with PAD/Dems views of the poor?

[sriracha john]

An MP source in the faction headed by Newin Chidchob said Puea Thai Party, backed by ousted PM Thaksin Shinawatra, had also re-sorted to new tactics to pressure MPs to leave the Democrat-led coalition.

"In some constituencies in northeastern provinces, villagers were asked to seal off the houses of MPs which have defected to the other camp [following the disbanding of ruling PPP]," the source said.

Apparently, it's worked.... for the next Shinawatra gang....and other assorted dubious cast members of the long-running play...

^ New tactic, but same old Thaksin intimidation.

Pheu Thai Party say they're not out of the race yet

The Pheu Thai Party yesterday expressed confidence it had the majority votes to form a government.

Leaders of the Party - including Yaowapa Wongsawat, wife of former Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat and Yingluck Shinawatra, a sister of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra - met at the party headquarters on Rama 4 road to discuss forming a government.

Former People Power Party Ubon Ratchathani MP Chuwit Pitakpornpallop said villagers in the Northeast had criticised some MPs in the Friends of Newin group who had decided to back the Democrat Party. And, he said, other MPs who did not publicly show support for the Democrats for fear of public opposition are accused of lying to villagers that they had not defected from the government.

"If the villagers find out [about this], these MPs will not be able to visit their constituents. Some villagers have thrown excrement into these MPs' homes. Next week they will face more opposition,'' he said.

Former People Power Party Party-list MP Thavon Triratnarong dismissed Democrat claims they had 240 MPs backing the Party saying, "the dust is yet to settle and every thing will be clear on the day the House elects a PM."

Chalerm Yoobamrung announced that nine members of the Friends of Newin group are sticking with the Pheu Thai Party and seven others, whom he refused to identify, would also throw in their support for the Party. He said it now has 220 MPs under its wing and more would be joining.

Chalerm said the MPs attracted by the Democrats would come back to Puea Thai Party soon. Asked if he was confident the Party would have the majority votes, he replied "Wait and see the day MPs vote to elect a PM.''

Puea Thai Party Leader Yongyuth Wichaidit and other party leaders visited Pracharat Party Leader Snoh Thienthong at his residence in Muang Thong Thani in a move to ensure Snoh would not change his mind and back the Democrats.

A source said the Puea Thai Party offered the PM post to Snoh in return for his Party support. The Puea Thai Party had earlier allowed smaller parties to nominate their party leaders as PM, and the Puea Thai Party would not nominate anyone.

- The Nation / 2008-12-09

[animatic]

An MP source in the faction headed by Newin Chidchob said Puea Thai Party, backed by ousted PM Thaksin Shinawatra, had also re-sorted to new tactics to pressure MPs to leave the Democrat-led coalition.

"In some constituencies in northeastern provinces, villagers were asked to seal off the houses of MPs which have defected to the other camp [following the disbanding of ruling PPP]," the source said.

- The Nation / 2008-12-09

Which begs the question:

Would you even consider going into business with someone

who would have villagers seal of your home to make you side with them???

This would be both gangster madness and acts of utter desperation rolled into one.

Where is that thread about Thaksin warning about bloodshed from Dubai?

[henryalleman]

If the old prophesy is true( and we all know that Thai people believe fortune telling). Than its very easy to understand why Thaksin will do everything to grab power again, and he will never give up his ambitions to become Numero Uno whatever the costs.

We may never forget THIS IS THAILAND.

Stating the obvious, with the corollary question: So what? I don't think you really understand your last statement.

I can only with your last sentence

[Wiresok]

The corrupt Thai courts are demanding assurances from the militant, armed Paramilitary, terrorist ,fascist PAD ; and their Democrat Party instrument, that the reported 40m baht per head for the MP's to switch, will not be sourced from the their slush fund.

And again, do you have any evidence for your repeated claim, on this and other threads, that the PAD are the militant arm of the Democrats, or that the Democratic Party is an instrument of the PAD, as above. I think not ... or you would surely have posted it ? You damage the IMO-justifiable claim, that the two have some similar aims, and also your own credibility, by extending it further than justified by the facts available.

For years now the PAD faschists and their Democrat instrument have been saying the thai coiurts are corrupt.

What are the faschist PAD and their democrat instruments views on

Wiresok, you have plenty of time to keep repeating your allegation, but no time to produce any evidence ?

What's the weather like, under your bridge ? ? ?

Thats exactly what the seeker of truth and justice is about.

He repeats the allegations of the PAD/Dems , made over many years now ,"that the thai courts are corrupt",

Maybe you were taking the weather under your bridge at the time.

But now the PAD/dems say the thai courts are squeaky clean and impartial, so lets see the PAD/dems put up their evidence of this, especially after the replacement of elected judges with appointed judges having an agenda.

The seeker of truth and justice stands to be convinced, but thus far no evidence.

[Wiresok]

For years now the PAD faschists and their Democrat instrument have been saying the thai coiurts are corrupt.

All the time, everyday, day in day out the thai courts are corrupt.

Now after the greatest judicial onslought to 3 times bring down the democratically elected government , the faschist PAD and their democratic instrument suddenly flip 180 degrees and all of a sudden the thai courts , the faschist PAD, and their democratic instrument are clean.

LOL

You have claimed for years the thai courts are corrupt, the burden of proof is with you, the militant, armed paramilitary, unelected, anti-government terrorist, fashist PAD, to prove they are not.

For years you have caimed the thai courts to be corrupt, now prove they are clean of face the charge of hypocites!!

hear hear WiresOK

Its taken them years to get to where we are today.

They had to have a coup and then the Junta replacing publicly elected judges with their choices

This fight is going to get dirty and NOT over by a long shot

LOL

Strangely the PAD and the Democrats have always respected the legal process here in Thailand. Even when the PAD leaders got in trouble they went to jail and then were released. When there was a court order they appealed. They in fact turned to the courts hoping that the courts would solve things legally on a suggestion

The Democrats are not allied with the PAD though they have had common cause in many instances when dealing with the TRT/PPP etc

I wonder which 'publicly elected judges' were replaced by the Junta? Can you name them?

LOL,

You said you were not reading my posts anymore, is this post a mirage, can it be believed, or have you just sobered up a bit?

[termsak]

An MP source in the faction headed by Newin Chidchob said Puea Thai Party, backed by ousted PM Thaksin Shinawatra, had also re-sorted to new tactics to pressure MPs to leave the Democrat-led coalition.

"In some constituencies in northeastern provinces, villagers were asked to seal off the houses of MPs which have defected to the other camp [following the disbanding of ruling PPP]," the source said.

- The Nation / 2008-12-09

Which begs the question:

Would you even consider going into business with someone

who would have villagers seal of your home to make you side with them???

This would be both gangster madness and acts of utter desperation rolled into one.

Where is that thread about Thaksin warning about bloodshed from Dubai?

No worries, all the Friends of Newin is staying at a certain hotel in BKK...23rd floor. His little brother is at a G-Club in Ekamai with 10 body guards around him. Actually, he has always been like this. One would think the PM was visiting the place!

[Jingthing]

That was quite a persuasive editorial and I hope people get a chance to read it. However, there is something fishy about how they gloss over the specific flaws of the man (Thaksin) that represents the leadership of the red shirt movement. That is I think a more serious flaw than they let on. There is not the feeling of a morally superior people's power movement in Thailand with the red shirts that we have seen in other parts of the world where there have been pro democratic people's power movements. Something does not add up. Something spoiling the stew. The people's power in Thailand seems to translate into Thaksin power. Not the same thing.

So if you want to boil it down, picking yellow or red is a typical choice of choosing the lesser of two evils and that is a very subjective judgment. Its silly to demonize supporters of either side, as both sides are clearly very flawed.

Edited December 8, 2008 by Jingthing

[DP25]

The majority of the Thai population, who are poor, face a Double Whammy. First, the elite Royalist are doing everything possible to take away their basic democratic rights.

The majority? The fact is that the vast majority of Thai voters voted for anti-Thaksin parties. The Thaksin PPP proxy party got a bit over 1/3rd the vote. Thaksin can keep on claiming he had some kind of electoral majority but it simply isn't true, the vast majority of people are now against him.

Althought I don't expect his propoganda campaign to let up.

[JetsetBkk]

..."In some constituencies in northeastern provinces, villagers were asked to seal off the houses of MPs which have defected to the other camp [following the disbanding of ruling PPP]," the source said.

- The Nation / 2008-12-09

They are clearly taking their lead from the PAD.

[Wiresok]

Never mind draft dodging, the guy's brain damaged!

Quick reoccupy the airports!!!

STOP PRESS

ENGLISH FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION ANNOUNCES NEW TWIST IN "BUNGS" ENQUIREY.

[Plus]

Dems better hope the signature verification doesn't take too long and they can vote on the PM before Sunday sermon by Thaksin.

They had 240 MPs signing up on their petition, about 17 friends of Newin abstained. Suthep says it's because they are afraid to come out at the moment.

In another article they said that people were throwing shit at houses of MPs who defected to Dem led coalition. The question is - do they really represent the voters or are they just trouble makers paid by mainstream Pheu Thai? It could be either way - Newin didn't have time to convince his people that the switch is necessary, there will be resentment among the voters. On the other hand MPs know their consituents better, they know if they'd really throw shit at them or not. For the moment some talk about "dirty tactics" and they might be right. They would need only a couple of days to test the real voter reaction to their defections.

The whole barganing process is just another reason why political reform is necessary - politicians openly display complete lack of any ideology or convictions.

[Wiresok]

Dems better hope the signature verification doesn't take too long and they can vote on the PM before Sunday sermon by Thaksin.

They had 240 MPs signing up on their petition, about 17 friends of Newin abstained. Suthep says it's because they are afraid to come out at the moment.

In another article they said that people were throwing shit at houses of MPs who defected to Dem led coalition. The question is - do they really represent the voters or are they just trouble makers paid by mainstream Pheu Thai? It could be either way - Newin didn't have time to convince his people that the switch is necessary, there will be resentment among the voters. On the other hand MPs know their consituents better, they know if they'd really throw shit at them or not. For the moment some talk about "dirty tactics" and they might be right. They would need only a couple of days to test the real voter reaction to their defections.

The whole barganing process is just another reason why political reform is necessary - politicians openly display complete lack of any ideology or convictions.

Whats your rush, youve only just got off your orange box accusing the democratically elected government of rushing things through.

The guys in the north arn't the only ones throwing shit about.

Careful which way the wind is blowing.