Tv Members And Political Correctness

[fred2007]

What is the true meaning of Christmas?

Is it to indulge yourself in Christmas gifts and eating all day long?

Having some kind of tree in the house lighted up and underneath have some present's?

Having a good time with all the family together in one place?

I am asking you all to explain to me the true meaning of Christmas.

my view:

true Christmas is when the five inhabitants of my home (one dog and four humans) enjoy decorating a Christmas tree in our front garden and later on sharing a nice dinner.

for the record: none of us are Christians and four of us belong to three different faiths. can't speak for my dog though as he is very secretive concerning this matter. the only evidence i have is that he is neither a Muslim, nor a Jew nor a Hindu because because he loves pork and beef.

This is for your dog

[Ulysses G.]

Anyone who models himself after Huey P. Newton and the Black Panther Party would be pretty certain to agree with Garro. I'm sure that you two have a lot in common!

...

Huey P. Newton, I remember the day he was gunned down in West Oakland, about 200 meters from my parked car. I also remember being the recipient of the free breakfast program for kids with skint parents. Great hot chocolate!

TheWalkingMan

LOL , Actually I don't model myself after anyone. While I respect Huey P. Newton and his work, My avatar is comedic in origin. It's Huey Freeman from the Boondocks

, one of my favorite comedies

It is impossible to search one's old posts right now, but I seem to remember quite a bit of Huey Newton type rhetoric in some of your golden oldies.

[Super Hans]

An example of this would be the Northern Ireland (or Ulster or whatever word for this part of the world that you prefer); for years crucial discussion could not take place because either side could not tolerate the use of certain words. Even place names could cause trouble as in the case of Derry/Londonderry. Meanwhile the bombing continued. A new vocabulary needed to be implemented so the discussion could begin and the terrorists/freedom fighters could stop blowing up babies and innocent people just trying to do their jobs. They actually found that once the vocabulary was made less-provoking these people actually had much in common. Some of these words actually sounded quite harmless by themselves, but there mere removal really made the difference. This example of the North of Ireland/Ulster is not unique, but can be applied to many conflicts in society. Remove the contentious words and many of the problems which were preventing dialogue are removed.

It's just so sweet that people actually believe this. Bless.

My difficulty is why people are anti-PC.

Because it is a tool used by the rich to make the gullible do their dirty work for them.

Because no good ever comes from trying to impose an ideology on others.

Because it's a magnet for marginalised groups to bandwaggon.

Because it's patronising toss.

Because it leads to paranoia and suspicion.

Because it leads to censorship.

Because it is a form of social control.

Because it will lead to war.

Finally, because it is utterly, utterly unnecessary. And boring. Really, really boring. My god PC types are dull.

Do not try and impose your will on me, bub. Despite what you think you DO NOT know best.

The worst thing is though that despite all the fear about PC I have never seen it stop any of these people spout their hateful <deleted>.

Then why bore us all to tears with it then? You are pissing people off - this will only serve to increase antagonism.

[garro]

An example of this would be the Northern Ireland (or Ulster or whatever word for this part of the world that you prefer); for years crucial discussion could not take place because either side could not tolerate the use of certain words. Even place names could cause trouble as in the case of Derry/Londonderry. Meanwhile the bombing continued. A new vocabulary needed to be implemented so the discussion could begin and the terrorists/freedom fighters could stop blowing up babies and innocent people just trying to do their jobs. They actually found that once the vocabulary was made less-provoking these people actually had much in common. Some of these words actually sounded quite harmless by themselves, but there mere removal really made the difference. This example of the North of Ireland/Ulster is not unique, but can be applied to many conflicts in society. Remove the contentious words and many of the problems which were preventing dialogue are removed.

It's just so sweet that people actually believe this. Bless.

My difficulty is why people are anti-PC.

Because it is a tool used by the rich to make the gullible do their dirty work for them.

Because no good ever comes from trying to impose an ideology on others.

Because it's a magnet for marginalised groups to bandwaggon.

Because it's patronising toss.

Because it leads to paranoia and suspicion.

Because it leads to censorship.

Because it is a form of social control.

Because it will lead to war.

Finally, because it is utterly, utterly unnecessary. And boring. Really, really boring. My god PC types are dull.

Do not try and impose your will on me, bub. Despite what you think you DO NOT know best.

The worst thing is though that despite all the fear about PC I have never seen it stop any of these people spout their hateful <deleted>.

Then why bore us all to tears with it then? You are pissing people off - this will only serve to increase antagonism.

Who is us?

Have you been elected the spokesperson for something?

The accusations that you make against PC are baseless, and the the reasons why have been repeated more than once on this thread. I doubt another explanation is going to benefit. The comments you made in regards to Ireland show just how out of touch your post is.

As for boring you. I hate to break it to you (us), but I do not post for your entertainment.

Edited December 18, 2008 by garro

[Super Hans]

And while I simply love Canada, the PC environment there can actually be repressive at times.

I was born in Canada and at one time would have loved to have emigrated there. Not now. It is truly frightening what some countries are doing. New Zealand have all but abolished their armed forces - absolute, unadulterated insanity. There is a variety of fundamentalism within certain stratas of society that is worrying.

The world is undoubtedly better off because of the PC movement. There is no doubt about it.

Actually, the jury is still out and there is room for significant doubt. What we have seen over the last couple of generations or so is an experiment. It will be many years yet before it's overall effectiveness can be assessed. World events can change startlingly quickly, so what is deemed 'conventional wisdom' today can be seen as major policy errors tomorrow. Someone earlier said words to the effective that multiculturalism is a success and must be increased. There are plenty that see the 'great multicultural experiment' as an absolute, dangerous failure. Go spend some time in Bradford, Oldham, Halifax, Burnley and many other northern UK towns, and you may well feel differently about the issue. And that applies equally to whites AND Asians.

My point here is, of course, these issues are NOT clear cut, and NOT being able to discuss them openly is EXTREMELY dangerous.

[Super Hans]

An example of this would be the Northern Ireland (or Ulster or whatever word for this part of the world that you prefer); for years crucial discussion could not take place because either side could not tolerate the use of certain words. Even place names could cause trouble as in the case of Derry/Londonderry. Meanwhile the bombing continued. A new vocabulary needed to be implemented so the discussion could begin and the terrorists/freedom fighters could stop blowing up babies and innocent people just trying to do their jobs. They actually found that once the vocabulary was made less-provoking these people actually had much in common. Some of these words actually sounded quite harmless by themselves, but there mere removal really made the difference. This example of the North of Ireland/Ulster is not unique, but can be applied to many conflicts in society. Remove the contentious words and many of the problems which were preventing dialogue are removed.

It's just so sweet that people actually believe this. Bless.

My difficulty is why people are anti-PC.

Because it is a tool used by the rich to make the gullible do their dirty work for them.

Because no good ever comes from trying to impose an ideology on others.

Because it's a magnet for marginalised groups to bandwaggon.

Because it's patronising toss.

Because it leads to paranoia and suspicion.

Because it leads to censorship.

Because it is a form of social control.

Because it will lead to war.

Finally, because it is utterly, utterly unnecessary. And boring. Really, really boring. My god PC types are dull.

Do not try and impose your will on me, bub. Despite what you think you DO NOT know best.

The worst thing is though that despite all the fear about PC I have never seen it stop any of these people spout their hateful <deleted>.

Then why bore us all to tears with it then? You are pissing people off - this will only serve to increase antagonism.

Who is us?

Have you been elected the spokesperson for something?

The accusations that you make against PC are baseless, and the the reasons why have been repeated more than once on this thread. I doubt another explanation is going to benefit. The comments you made in regards to Ireland show just how out of touch your post is.

As for boring you. I hate to break it to you (us), but I do not post for your entertainment.

Point proven I believe...

[rgs2001uk]

3. It seems to me that the "pro-PC" posters here, and I use that term reluctantly as I think most posters are "pro-PC," just not pro excessive or ridiculous PC, keep trying to equate PC with racism with a little sexism and religion thrown in.

Read the posts above again and you'll find that Racism and Sexism + unwarranted attacks on female posters came, not from those who are pro-Political Correctness, but from those who are Anti-Political Correctness. As I commented early in the thread, it is clear that many members are unable to give their views on Political Correctness without launching into a rant exposing their 'Women' and 'Immigrtation/Race' issues.

You are absolutely correct in your statement, but that does not really respond to mine. I would be extremely surprised to hear a racist remark from someone who has taken the PC movement to heart. This is why all else being equal, I would tend to associate with PC-ophiles rather than anti-PC folks who are in fact racist.

My point in my quote is that is seems that a few adamently PC posters here are pretty much limiting themselves to racism and sexism. Those are two low-hanging fruits, easy to attack with few people disagreeing. PC has much more scope than just those two issues, and I think it is on those other issues that most people would have their problems with excessive PC.

--

Is Obama being given an easy ride because of his race, or is it simply the general feeling of relief at having got rid of the current incumbant.

A 'honeymoon' period is quite normal. GWB enjoyed one (spending his time playing golf etc), why should not a President Elect who was voted in with such a wide margin of aproval also enjoy a honeymoon period.

Race is an issue in the US and in time we'll hear how the President Elect is not above racits attacks.

The main context of this was not concerning the honeymoon period, but rather the primary and general election process (This interview was taken the day after the election). There was a study made about jokes told on the major candidates, and Obama had far fewer told on him despite him being the poll leader. Maher quoted those statistics, but I don't remember the exact numbers.

Don't get me wrong. I voted for Obama, and I fervently hope that there are far fewer reasons to lambast him than his predecessor, but if he does misstep, I hope the media treats him the same as they would have treated McCain had he won.

Khun Bonobo,

thats a rather bold statement you have made, would you be prepared to back it up with some facts.

I dont consider myself a racist, in fact I subscribe to the school of thought that all men were created equal, friend to a pauper companion to a prince etc etc etc, I also believe that no man has the right to impose his views on another, but thats another topic.

Can one of the pc brigade please inform me of the pc point of view with regards to the following,

abortion, divorce, contraception, euthanasia.

The reason I ask is, I have my own views and would hate to be acuseed of being anti pc just because my views do not agree with the current en vogue line of thinking.

My own problems with the pc brigade stems from the fact that for pc, substitute self interest, not anything to do with actually creating a better society for all.

On top of that we could also throw in the hypocrosiy of some of the more vocal champions of the pc cause.

I choose to live in Thailand as a guest, I take the country warts and all, lets be honest, probably one of the most anti pc countries one could live in (sexist, ageist, racist, xenophobic etc etc), if it bothered me I would leave, yet others choose to live in this sort of enviorment.

Another champion of the pc brigade chooses to work and live in probably one of the most totalitarian countries in the world, a country where to this day society is being ethnically modified.

Maybe some dont actually have the courage of their convictions, is the lure of the dollar enough to have them look the other way?

Talk is cheap as they say.

[bonobo]

3. It seems to me that the "pro-PC" posters here, and I use that term reluctantly as I think most posters are "pro-PC," just not pro excessive or ridiculous PC, keep trying to equate PC with racism with a little sexism and religion thrown in.

Read the posts above again and you'll find that Racism and Sexism + unwarranted attacks on female posters came, not from those who are pro-Political Correctness, but from those who are Anti-Political Correctness. As I commented early in the thread, it is clear that many members are unable to give their views on Political Correctness without launching into a rant exposing their 'Women' and 'Immigrtation/Race' issues.

You are absolutely correct in your statement, but that does not really respond to mine. I would be extremely surprised to hear a racist remark from someone who has taken the PC movement to heart. This is why all else being equal, I would tend to associate with PC-ophiles rather than anti-PC folks who are in fact racist.

My point in my quote is that is seems that a few adamently PC posters here are pretty much limiting themselves to racism and sexism. Those are two low-hanging fruits, easy to attack with few people disagreeing. PC has much more scope than just those two issues, and I think it is on those other issues that most people would have their problems with excessive PC.

--

Is Obama being given an easy ride because of his race, or is it simply the general feeling of relief at having got rid of the current incumbant.

A 'honeymoon' period is quite normal. GWB enjoyed one (spending his time playing golf etc), why should not a President Elect who was voted in with such a wide margin of aproval also enjoy a honeymoon period.

Race is an issue in the US and in time we'll hear how the President Elect is not above racits attacks.

The main context of this was not concerning the honeymoon period, but rather the primary and general election process (This interview was taken the day after the election). There was a study made about jokes told on the major candidates, and Obama had far fewer told on him despite him being the poll leader. Maher quoted those statistics, but I don't remember the exact numbers.

Don't get me wrong. I voted for Obama, and I fervently hope that there are far fewer reasons to lambast him than his predecessor, but if he does misstep, I hope the media treats him the same as they would have treated McCain had he won.

Khun Bonobo,

thats a rather bold statement you have made, would you be prepared to back it up with some facts.

I dont consider myself a racist, in fact I subscribe to the school of thought that all men were created equal, friend to a pauper companion to a prince etc etc etc, I also believe that no man has the right to impose his views on another, but thats another topic.

Can one of the pc brigade please inform me of the pc point of view with regards to the following,

abortion, divorce, contraception, euthanasia.

The reason I ask is, I have my own views and would hate to be acuseed of being anti pc just because my views do not agree with the current en vogue line of thinking.

My own problems with the pc brigade stems from the fact that for pc, substitute self interest, not anything to do with actually creating a better society for all.

On top of that we could also throw in the hypocrosiy of some of the more vocal champions of the pc cause.

I choose to live in Thailand as a guest, I take the country warts and all, lets be honest, probably one of the most anti pc countries one could live in (sexist, ageist, racist, xenophobic etc etc), if it bothered me I would leave, yet others choose to live in this sort of enviorment.

Another champion of the pc brigade chooses to work and live in probably one of the most totalitarian countries in the world, a country where to this day society is being ethnically modified.

Maybe some dont actually have the courage of their convictions, is the lure of the dollar enough to have them look the other way?

Talk is cheap as they say.

You have taken that small quote out of context with the rest of my posts on the subject, but I guess I should have been clearer in my writing. Perhaps I should have written it more like this:

"This is why all else being equal, I would tend to associate with PC-ophiles rather than those few extreme anti-PC folks who are in fact as racist as some posters accuse all anti-PC people to be.

Of course, I don't know if the number is really "few" or not, but I would hope so. But I know for a fact that not all anti-PC people are racists or bigots.

[garro]

rgs2001uk said;

On top of that we could also throw in the hypocrosiy of some of the more vocal champions of the pc cause.

I choose to live in Thailand as a guest, I take the country warts and all, lets be honest, probably one of the most anti pc countries one could live in (sexist, ageist, racist, xenophobic etc etc), if it bothered me I would leave, yet others choose to live in this sort of enviorment.

Another champion of the pc brigade chooses to work and live in probably one of the most totalitarian countries in the world, a country where to this day society is being ethnically modified.

So let me get this straight. If somebody moves to a country whose government does things which they may not agree with then they are being a hypocrite? This does not seem like clear thinking to me. I doubt that there is any government in the world which I would agree with about everything. So where should I live? This is the anti-PC argument which I dislike the most; if you don't like it or if you don't want to act like us then you should leave. I have never heard a politically correct person saying where people should and shouldn't live .

Luckily for me though, Thailand is not as bad as you make out. There are plenty of liberal thinkers here. Even in the most totalitarian Middle-East states have liberal thinkers.

I did not come to Thailand to change anything. I never criticise Thailand on this or any forum, because I believe that I'm a guest here, and that it is always better to look at the good in my life - and for me Thailand has been very good. I do however also believe in respect and a one of the best ways of showing respect is through not using insulting vocabulary. I applaud any government that attempts to increase harmony among its citizens.

[dee123]

,...another Guesthouse masterpiece,. ......only read OP's piece but here's how I see it,.......political correctness is OK but ignoring it is when the resentment sets in,....it has many guises but mainly is about using mischeivous tactics to be-little certain groups,.....for instance ,.......in a guide book of Thailand ....(no names mentioned,but it was "Rough"reading)...there was a page or two about "Sin City"Pattaya,....and in one page there were two bits of info,.....(1),..about the "Gay" area, ...then (2) about the "Beer Bar"/Nightlife area and whereas the guide to local "Gay" area was helpful and curteus,....when it came to describing the "Beer Bar" scenario it went something like this;........ " the Shopping Mall is within spiting distance of a large cluster of hostess Beer Bars,where you'll find middle aged men and their much younger hostesses sitting around and basically doing nothing",.............now that is probably accurate ,....but the same thing occurs in the gay area,.....and I ask you this question,..........would the journalist say "within spitting distance" of the Gay area?,......I think not!!,..so am I saying it would be OK to say this to Gay's?.........NO!! I most certainly am not,.......but I also believe it should strecth to ALL groups,....."Working girls",...and their punters, and all,.....politcal correctness should not discriminate!!....P.S, and yes obviously it was written by a white female journalist!!

Edited December 18, 2008 by dee123

[PhilHarries]

dee123 I think I know where you are coming from but I'll have to have some more caffeine and get back on that one if necessary.

Anyhow PC hs gone a step too far.

A woman Dr Who! :-

Writer and executive producer Russell T Davies suggested a female Timelord to replace David Tennant when he leaves at the end of next year.

The end of the world as we know it is upon us. But:-

"Catherine Zeta Jones would be great," Davies said of the 39-year-old Oscar-winner, adding that her Welsh heritage - she is Swansea-born - was in her favour. The show is filmed in Cardiff and Davies himself is Welsh.

Oh well, that's okay then

A bit of "jobs for the boyo's (girls-o's?)" there but hel_l that's show business.

Signing her up would make television history because women have been relegated to the role of the Doctor's companion since the BBC One sci-fi show began in 1963. Joanna Lumley was once tipped to take over from Tom Baker in the 1980s, but the part went to Peter Davison instead.

But the important question is would she be Doctor Who or Matron Who?

The times they are-a-changin'. And more:-

Davies also supported the idea of a black Doctor Who, whether male or female. "The more it's talked about, the more likely it is to happen," he said. Colin Salmon and Paterson Joseph are names in the frame.

I wonder how the traditionalists would view either of those possibilities?

The world of stereotypes is gradually being eroded, there has even been talk of a black or Chinese James Bond.

Please note the above post is, whilst totally factual, presented in a light hearted manner in order to break up the heavy weight philosophical discussions.

Serious subjects often benefit from some light hearted analysis. If we all learnt to laugh at ourselves as much as we do at others we are a step closer to tolerance and understanding.

[Huey]

A black friend remarks;

"I am NOT an African American, I'm an American I was born here and have nothing to do with Africa. If you want to be more descriptive, call me a black American".

Well that the goverments fault isnt it for...

Please tick the appropraite box for example... british asian???????? WFT?

If i got a residence or even thai passport would i be Thai british? Not at all i would be british.

Jeez to much nonsense.

Yeah Black works great for me. I figure, white Americans don't have to go around calling each other Euro-American, so why the heck do I need a Hyphen? The importation of Slaves into the US was formally outlawed in 1786 (though some snuck in after that anyway) thus the Majority of Black people in America have had ancestry there for over 200+ years. Which is longer than many of the whites there that came over during the last 120 or so.

That combined with the blood, free labor, and sweat we bore for this country more than earned us that noble right to be called American.

Like Gary's friend said , if you need to be more descriptive Black American is fine. However I'm just as happy to simply be American for all intents and purposes. And that is certainly PC. What's not PC is the N-word, or any other derogatory descriptor that the Anti-PC types like enjoy.

[bonobo]

A black friend remarks;

"I am NOT an African American, I'm an American I was born here and have nothing to do with Africa. If you want to be more descriptive, call me a black American".

Well that the goverments fault isnt it for...

Please tick the appropraite box for example... british asian???????? WFT?

If i got a residence or even thai passport would i be Thai british? Not at all i would be british.

Jeez to much nonsense.

Yeah Black works great for me. I figure, white Americans don't have to go around calling each other Euro-American, so why the heck do I need a Hyphen? The importation of Slaves into the US was formally outlawed in 1786 (though some snuck in after that anyway) thus the Majority of Black people in America have had ancestry there for over 200+ years. Which is longer than many of the whites there that came over during the last 120 or so.

That combined with the blood, free labor, and sweat we bore for this country more than earned us that noble right to be called American.

Like Gary's friend said , if you need to be more descriptive Black American is fine. However I'm just as happy to simply be American for all intents and purposes. And that is certainly PC. What's not PC is the N-word, or any other derogatory descriptor that the Anti-PC types like enjoy.

I have a friend of mine who is tall, blonde, and white (and quite attractive, by-the-way.)  She was born in the RSA but married a visiting American rugger. Now she is a US citizen.  Whenever she is asked her race on some form or if her background comes up in converstation, she proudly states that she is an African-American.

I have to laugh when  see the look of confusion on people's faces when she says that.  

[PhilHarries]

When confronted with "Race?" on a form I'm always tempted to put something like "2 o'clock, Newmarket" a bit like "International playboy and racconteur" for profession. But as these types of questions predominantly appear on immigration forms I stick with "British" and "Engineer". Immigration officers are like security guys, they have zero sense of humour.

However they, questions of ethnicity, are creeping in on employment paperwork although with the notation that an answer is not essential. If it's not essential why have the question on the form? What happens to those applications where the aplicee (?) declines to answer?

If a boy named Sue applied for a job as a gunslinger would he get an interview if he declined to tick the M box on the form?

How do you remove all possibility of predujice from things like job applications? It's all very well applying the race/gender/religion discrimination stuff to advertisements but if the employer wants to hire a young,white, christian, male there's little you can do about it.

[GuestHouse]

Another champion of the pc brigade chooses to work and live in probably one of the most totalitarian countries in the world, a country where to this day society is being ethnically modified.

Maybe some dont actually have the courage of their convictions, is the lure of the dollar enough to have them look the other way?

Talk is cheap as they say.

Here's a curious thing, on a number of occasions (I mean numerous) respondents to various posts I have made bring up the fact that I am working in Saudi Arabia, as if doing so denies me the right to an opinion or, as here, as if working in Saudi Arabia is a statement of acceptance and support for any number of problems in this society. These comments often come from people who have in the past worked and lived in Saudi Arabia (Do they/Did they support all these things?). And when they come from people who have never lived or worked in Saudi Arabia I have to wonder do they understand enough about this place to give any meaningful comment? Is their argument that I should not hold liberal views because they have a prejudicial view of where I work?

I have this observation on working here.

Firstly, and this is also relevant to Thailand, living and working here has given me an understanding of a place which previously had, in my mind, been shrouded in all manner of misconceptions and prejudicial views. Much of what I had heard of Saudi Arabia has been correct, very much of what I had heard has been very very wrong. For me the Saudi Bogie Man is back in its box and my own prejudices have been removed by personal experience of having the privilege to meet and work with some extremely fine people.

An open mind and a starting point of respect allows us to see the good that is in all humanity, this is as true here in Saudi as it is in Thailand.

I've witnessed the grace and dignity of a Saudi colleague and his family dealing with the their 8 year old daughter's cancer, a man and his wife throwing everything they have at doing the best for their daughter. The importance to Saudis of family, the importance of all the same concerns as the rest has cleared my mind of the negative stereotypes so often bandied about when referring to Saudis and Muslims in general.

Nobody has tried to convert me, I'm treated well and with respect. My Saudi opposite number is a man I have frequent arguments with, we are at opposite ends of a contract his needs are my costs so conflict is expected. We argue frequently and in many respects I find him a pain the primary, but in one respect he has my admiration .. His insistence that we all of us treat other with mutual respect, from the project leader to the day labourer.

Open your mind, the rewards are huge.... and I'm not just referring to my compensation package

[bonobo]

Another champion of the pc brigade chooses to work and live in probably one of the most totalitarian countries in the world, a country where to this day society is being ethnically modified.

Maybe some dont actually have the courage of their convictions, is the lure of the dollar enough to have them look the other way?

Talk is cheap as they say.

Here's a curious thing, on a number of occasions (I mean numerous) respondents to various posts I have made bring up the fact that I am working in Saudi Arabia, as if doing so denies me the right to an opinion or, as here, as if working in Saudi Arabia is a statement of acceptance and support for any number of problems in this society. These comments often come from people who have in the past worked and lived in Saudi Arabia (Do they/Did they support all these things?). And when they come from people who have never lived or worked in Saudi Arabia I have to wonder do they understand enough about this place to give any meaningful comment? Is their argument that I should not hold liberal views because they have a prejudicial view of where I work?

I have this observation on working here.

Firstly, and this is also relevant to Thailand, living and working here has given me an understanding of a place which previously had, in my mind, been shrouded in all manner of misconceptions and prejudicial views. Much of what I had heard of Saudi Arabia has been correct, very much of what I had heard has been very very wrong. For me the Saudi Bogie Man is back in its box and my own prejudices have been removed by personal experience of having the privilege to meet and work with some extremely fine people.

An open mind and a starting point of respect allows us to see the good that is in all humanity, this is as true here in Saudi as it is in Thailand.

I've witnessed the grace and dignity of a Saudi colleague and his family dealing with the their 8 year old daughter's cancer, a man and his wife throwing everything they have at doing the best for their daughter. The importance to Saudis of family, the importance of all the same concerns as the rest has cleared my mind of the negative stereotypes so often bandied about when referring to Saudis and Muslims in general.

Nobody has tried to convert me, I'm treated well and with respect. My Saudi opposite number is a man I have frequent arguments with, we are at opposite ends of a contract his needs are my costs so conflict is expected. We argue frequently and in many respects I find him a pain the primary, but in one respect he has my admiration .. His insistence that we all of us treat other with mutual respect, from the project leader to the day labourer.

Open your mind, the rewards are huge.... and I'm not just referring to my compensation package

Maybe I am trying to put the best face as possible on people's motives. And while the above quote about you living in Saudi Arabia may be a little pointed, my recollection of other posts is that they have been a little more ironic rather than damning.

And you do have to admit that it is a little ironic, at least on one issue. Despite many, many admirable traits such as the importance of family (and extended family) of teh Saudi people, women's rights are not what most of the rest of the world would consider very well advanced in Saudi Arabia. I know Saudi women who like it that way, but still, the laws concerning divorce, accusations of rape, freedom to travel, the Mutawas caning them (OK, the Mutawas punish men, too) point to a lack of freedom and a large degree of inequality in the country. And since your posts have taken a pretty gender-equality stand, it is ironic that you work there.

Ironic does not mean critical, though. And that does not mean that anyone with liberal, conservative, or whatever views should only live or work in a place which matches his or her views. To take it to an extreme, I don't think many of the foreigners now working in Darfur really agree with the Sudanese government or the Janjaweed.

[GuestHouse]

Irony, well perhaps.. if we want to put the best face on it.

But an argumentum ad hominem for sure, intellectually weak in that it argues against an individual's circumstance not against their statement of view.

Would my views have a different weight, if for example I'm were in Rome, does that indicate I agree with all the Pope has to say, and what about when I move once more to my next assignment post?.... Watch this space and see.

Travel, it is said, broadens the mind.

[bonobo]

Irony, well perhaps.. if we want to put the best face on it.

But an argumentum ad hominem for sure, intellectually weak in that it argues against an individual's circumstance not against their statement of view.

Would my views have a different weight, if for example I'm were in Rome, does that indicate I agree with all the Pope has to say, and what about when I move once more to my next assignment post?.... Watch this space and see.

Travel, it is said, broadens the mind.

I would say irony just as I would think it ironic is you were posting about your favorite BBQ Pork Ribs in the food forum. Not that you can't have a good recipe, but rather that you are in a country where most people would not eat pork. I love to cook, so I think it is ironic that I live in a country where most condos have no or marginally effective kitchens.

Your opinions are you opinions and just as valid or invalid despite where you live. But, on second thought, maybe even more considering your views and where you live.

Going back to my lily-white Iowa high school class. It would be easy to say then that there were no racial problems. There were none, because only one race attended the school.

But assume for a minute that Saudi Arabia oppresses women (just for arguement's sake.) So if you were able to observe this, and this struck you as just wrong, then perhaps your views would carry a little more weight on this issue that if you lived somewhere where sexism is not a major problem or issue.

Where you happen to reside may affect your view on things, but that does not mean you have to be in agreement with the pervailing notions.

[rgs2001uk]

rgs2001uk said;

On top of that we could also throw in the hypocrosiy of some of the more vocal champions of the pc cause.

I choose to live in Thailand as a guest, I take the country warts and all, lets be honest, probably one of the most anti pc countries one could live in (sexist, ageist, racist, xenophobic etc etc), if it bothered me I would leave, yet others choose to live in this sort of enviorment.

Another champion of the pc brigade chooses to work and live in probably one of the most totalitarian countries in the world, a country where to this day society is being ethnically modified.

So let me get this straight. If somebody moves to a country whose government does things which they may not agree with then they are being a hypocrite?Sorry English isnt my first language neither am I a teacher , perhaps you could let me know what word I should have used so I can add it to my vocabularyThis does not seem like clear thinking to me. I doubt that there is any government in the world which I would agree with about everything. So where should I live? Sorry cant help you on that one, I dont know your circumstances This is the anti-PC argument which I dislike the most; if you don't like it or if you don't want to act like us then you should leave.I have heard this from Thai people so many times its starting to sound like a broken record, next time a Thai mentions this to me I will be sure to pass on your concerns. I am sure the Thai people will not take kindly to a farang telling them what they should and shouldnt think in their own country Personally it doesnt bother me and I feel sure it wont bother a Thai to know that you consider them to be un pc.I have never heard a politically correct person saying where people should and shouldn't live .Probably because most pc people belong to some sort of minority

Luckily for me though, Thailand is not as bad as you make out.I wasnt saying Thailand is bad if however thats your interpretation that your perogative, I in fact applaud the Thai way of doing things and I am heartened that the cultural imperialists have not as yet made inroads in the kingdom.There are plenty of liberal thinkers here. Even in the most totalitarian Middle-East states have liberal thinkers. I dont doubt what you say and I feel sure the liberal thinkers that are incarcerated or being re educated in the totalitarian states may agree with you as well.

I did not come to Thailand to change anything.Neither did I why would I want to?I never criticise Thailand on this or any forum,Please let me know what part of my post you consider to be critical of Thailand, it certainly isnt my intention to criticize, I was making an observation not a judgement, as i said above I applaud the Thai way of doing things. because I believe that I'm a guest here, and that it is always better to look at the good in my life - and for me Thailand has been very good. I do however also believe in respect and a one of the best ways of showing respect is through not using insulting vocabulary.Please let me know what part of my post you consider to be insulting, just because you dont agree with it doesnt make it insulting, I may or may not agree with your posts, I however dont feel insulted just because i dont agree with you. I applaud any government that attempts to increase harmony among its citizens.So do I, I also support any government thats puts the will of the majority before the will of the minority, whatever that minority may be.

[sbk]

Please do not post inside a quoted post, even with different colored type, it could be confusing and is considered poor netiquette. Instead, quote the relevant sections and then follow that section with a comment such as Phil Harries did in an above post

[rgs2001uk]

Another champion of the pc brigade chooses to work and live in probably one of the most totalitarian countries in the world, a country where to this day society is being ethnically modified.

Maybe some dont actually have the courage of their convictions, is the lure of the dollar enough to have them look the other way?

Talk is cheap as they say.

Here's a curious thing, on a number of occasions (I mean numerous) respondents to various posts I have made bring up the fact that I am working in Saudi Arabia, as if doing so denies me the right to an opinion or, as here, as if working in Saudi Arabia is a statement of acceptance and support for any number of problems in this society. These comments often come from people who have in the past worked and lived in Saudi Arabia (Do they/Did they support all these things?). And when they come from people who have never lived or worked in Saudi Arabia I have to wonder do they understand enough about this place to give any meaningful comment? Is their argument that I should not hold liberal views because they have a prejudicial view of where I work?

I have this observation on working here.

Firstly, and this is also relevant to Thailand, living and working here has given me an understanding of a place which previously had, in my mind, been shrouded in all manner of misconceptions and prejudicial views. Much of what I had heard of Saudi Arabia has been correct, very much of what I had heard has been very very wrong. For me the Saudi Bogie Man is back in its box and my own prejudices have been removed by personal experience of having the privilege to meet and work with some extremely fine people.

An open mind and a starting point of respect allows us to see the good that is in all humanity, this is as true here in Saudi as it is in Thailand.

I've witnessed the grace and dignity of a Saudi colleague and his family dealing with the their 8 year old daughter's cancer, a man and his wife throwing everything they have at doing the best for their daughter. The importance to Saudis of family, the importance of all the same concerns as the rest has cleared my mind of the negative stereotypes so often bandied about when referring to Saudis and Muslims in general.

Nobody has tried to convert me, I'm treated well and with respect. My Saudi opposite number is a man I have frequent arguments with, we are at opposite ends of a contract his needs are my costs so conflict is expected. We argue frequently and in many respects I find him a pain the primary, but in one respect he has my admiration .. His insistence that we all of us treat other with mutual respect, from the project leader to the day labourer.

Open your mind, the rewards are huge.... and I'm not just referring to my compensation package

Believe me my mind was opened a long time ago, I have nothing but respect for the way certain things are done in Saudi.

I used to ponder as to how the minorities in the west would react if they were treated the same way as they would be treated in Saudi.

I believe the west could learn a great deal from the Saudi way of doing things, and look forward to the day when some of the best practices are incorporated in the west.

Whatever views you hold are no concern of mine, I am heartened to hear you are treated with dignity and respect, I hope this sort of trust and respect is also afforded to the many tcns resident in the kingdom, in some cases against their will.

I also hope the same trust and respect has also been afforded to the shia minority or to the tihami people.

[garro]

rgs2001uk

I am not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or you are just didn't understand what I was saying. The method you have used to answer post is not only confusing, but also misleading; through doing do so you are taking things out of context.

For example; I make a point about the anti-PC crowd telling people where they should and shouldn't live. You reply by saying that you will pass on my concerns to the Thais. The problem is that I was not referring to the Thais and this would be obvious to anyone who read the OP. I spend most of my time with Thais and have never heard anyone express any opinion on PC. The only people I have ever heard give a negative opinion on this issue have been westerners with a grudge.

Edited December 19, 2008 by garro

[GuestHouse]

Whatever views you hold are no concern of mine, I am heartened to hear you are treated with dignity and respect, I hope this sort of trust and respect is also afforded to the many tcns resident in the kingdom, in some cases against their will.

I agree, I would hope so too, as I would hope Thailand's stateless minorities would be afforded the rights of citizenship they have for so long been denied, and that migrant workers from Burma and Cambodia are treated with respect and dignity. These things are of course not under our control, but we do each of us have the opportunity to treat those around us with dignity and respect - lead by example so to speak. I'm proud to say that the organization I work for has a very rigorous respect and diversity policy, our Third Country Nationals enjoy the same assignment terms and conditions, the same housing, the same leave, the same company car rights as do I or any member of the core organization.

The word moves on, that any prejudiced treatment exists is not an excuse to perpetuate it.

--

Going on from what Garro says. I have never ever heard a Thai suggest that foreigners who have any kind of an issue with Thailand should go home - I mean I have never ever heard that. To suggest that anyone hears this from Thais to the point that its getting to sound like a broken record beggars belief. I'm not saying the claim is 'imagined' but it does seem to be an argument of convenience lacking substantiation.

[Ulysses G.]

Please do not post inside a quoted post, even with different colored type, it could be confusing and is considered poor netiquette. Instead, quote the relevant sections and then follow that section with a comment such as Phil Harries did in an above post

I did notice that Mr. Harris did not quote properly as the poster is not listed. I can do multiple quotes in the same manner that he did, but not correctly. The point is that it is not easy.

I still can not do a poll properly unless I get very lucky.

[mc2]

Please do not post inside a quoted post, even with different colored type, it could be confusing and is considered poor netiquette. Instead, quote the relevant sections and then follow that section with a comment such as Phil Harries did in an above post

I did notice that Mr. Harris did not quote properly as the poster is not listed. I can do multiple quotes in the same manner that he did, but not correctly. The point is that it is not easy.

I still can not do a poll properly unless I get very lucky.

self pity aside, you are right.

mr harris did not quote properly. we dont know who he is referring to.

the problem is, if one is responding to a large series of points, unless one does a mass cut paste edit (huge time waster) job with the quotes, perfect quoting is not possible.

posting inside a quoted post with different colour may be bad ettiquite but it's a hel_l of a lot easier than the mass cut paste edit routine one has to go through.

[Ulysses G.]

self pity aside, you are right.

mr harris did not quote properly. we dont know who he is referring to.

the problem is, if one is responding to a large series of points, unless one does a mass cut paste edit (huge time waster) job with the quotes, perfect quoting is not possible.

posting inside a quoted post with different colour may be bad ettiquite but it's a hel_l of a lot easier than the mass cut paste edit routine one has to go through.

We are both saying the same thing, but I don't see where I am being"self pitying". I am just trying to point out that sometimes instructions are lousy (putting together a poll) and other times, the software does not make it possible to use a function correctly (multiple quotes).

Edited December 19, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[PhilHarries]

You're one up on me there UG, I can't do a poll period. Not that I've particularly wanted to there's no shortage here on TV.

We've now swung onto a side track along the lines of "If you live and work in a country do you condone it's record on citizen's rights and equalities?"

A reasonable question on the face of it. Some of us here work in the oil and gas business and our work often takes us to countries with dubious backgrounds, regimes and human rights records. By working in these places are we implicitly supporting the encumbent regimes irrespective of our ethical posturing? Are those of us with symbolic blood on our hands allowed to preach such subjects to others that, whilst maybe not as pure of thought, are clear of any such shadows of guilt?

What do the non O&G folks, or those who've never worked on the dark side, amongst you think? (Now I wish I could do polls )

[garro]

You're one up on me there UG, I can't do a poll period. Not that I've particularly wanted to there's no shortage here on TV.

We've now swung onto a side track along the lines of "If you live and work in a country do you condone it's record on citizen's rights and equalities?"

A reasonable question on the face of it. Some of us here work in the oil and gas business and our work often takes us to countries with dubious backgrounds, regimes and human rights records. By working in these places are we implicitly supporting the encumbent regimes irrespective of our ethical posturing? Are those of us with symbolic blood on our hands allowed to preach such subjects to others that, whilst maybe not as pure of thought, are clear of any such shadows of guilt?

What do the non O&G folks, or those who've never worked on the dark side, amongst you think? (Now I wish I could do polls )

I worked in Saudi as a nurse which is a bit different. The money wasn't that big a deal for me, because I actually made more as an agency nurse in Ireland and in the UK; I went there for the experience and change in environment. I didn't really like it so I left.

I have friends that worked as nurses in Iraq who had been accused of helping the regime there. I didn't agree with this at all. Why should sick people be punished for their governments? Even people in the worst regime deserve healthcare; it is like people want to punish them twice.

As for people working with oil and making big bucks. I think that is a matter of conscience. I suppose some of the wealth created must drip down to the poor. I do think though that it is sometimes worth reminding posters who are particularly critical of Thailand that where they live could be even more worthy of these criticisms.

My beliefs in regards to PC are personal, but I think it is a good thing and remain suspicious of the motives people have for being anti-pc - this thread has not changed that. In fact it has made me examine my values more and strengtened them.

Edited December 19, 2008 by garro

[rgs2001uk]

rgs2001uk

I am not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or you are just didn't understand what I was saying. The method you have used to answer post is not only confusing, but also misleading; through doing do so you are taking things out of context.

For example; I make a point about the anti-PC crowd telling people where they should and shouldn't live. You reply by saying that you will pass on my concerns to the Thais. The problem is that I was not referring to the Thais and this would be obvious to anyone who read the OP. I spend most of my time with Thais and have never heard anyone express any opinion on PC. The only people I have ever heard give a negative opinion on this issue have been westerners with a grudge.

Garro,

it certainly wasnt my intention to be obtuse, if thats how you perceive it thats your perogative.

I certainly understood what you said.

"This is the anti-PC argument which I dislike the most; if you don't like it or if you don't want to act like us then you should leave."

I am sorry but I fail to comprehend what part of my answer is confusing or missleading you, and its only my opinion but I fail to see where I have taken things out of context.

I read the above quote as referring to an anti pc arguement, irrespective of who has passed the remark, Thai or otherwise.

If you cannot accept the fact that some of my Thai friends have passed a remark about farangs staying in Thailand whilst they are obviously so unhappy that perhaps they should leave, thats as they say up to you.

As I said before I will be sure to pass on your remarks about people who say, if you dont like it here then leave.

I can assure you I have no grudge, but like my Thai friends mentioned above I am somewhat perplexed as to why a farang would bitch and moan about a country, yet choose to live in it.

A Thai friend passed the remark the other week, you are lucky you can leave here, he certainly wasnt being derogatory or anti pc, he was concerned about the state of his country.

As to what you disscuss with you Thai friends, I have no idea, so am unable to form an opinion or pass a comment.

[garro]

rgs2001

To be a bit frank with you, I am not really that interested in what your Thai friends are saying. I tend to go a bit glaze-eyed when posters start talking about what their Thai partners or friends say about westerners on this forum. It always comes across to me as a bit childish. I am more interested in what the poster thinks. I am sure that your Thai friends are big enough to represent themselves, and I am perfectly capable of getting opinions from the Thais I know without the need of you to pass on the information as a representative of the people of Thailand. I'm afraid 'my Thai friends said..' doesn't really carry much weight with me, especially when it is used to bolster a poster's argument. This form of evidence is too open to abuse.

I have repeatedly stated that I do not criticise Thailand. If you are not going to read my posts please refrain from quoting them.

Edited December 19, 2008 by garro