Ex Has Gone Abroad Leaving My Son With Various Family

[samvimes]

I have lived here for 12 years. I raised my son on my own from the age of 3 until he was 5. When the tsunami came my ex virtually kidnapped him and disappeared for 9 months, no telephone calls were made or answered. Eventually she needed money I guess so she got back in touch and allowed me limited access to him, based on me paying for it.

My son desperately wants to live with me and I feel the same way too.

She has now gone to Austria on a one year visa and has a job and boyfriend there. She promised she would let me take care of him but reneged on this and has left him with a variety of family members since, not her mother as they don't get on. (She's been gone two months).

My question is...

What will happen if I simply go up to Udon and take him from school and bring him back to Phuket with me?

Surely as the next of kin and his mother having de facto abandoned him I have every right to do this.

Your advice is greatly appreciated as I am about to buy my ticket up there. I am named as his father on his birth certificate by the way.

[PattayaParent]

I have lived here for 12 years. I raised my son on my own from the age of 3 until he was 5. When the tsunami came my ex virtually kidnapped him and disappeared for 9 months, no telephone calls were made or answered. Eventually she needed money I guess so she got back in touch and allowed me limited access to him, based on me paying for it.

My son desperately wants to live with me and I feel the same way too.

She has now gone to Austria on a one year visa and has a job and boyfriend there. She promised she would let me take care of him but reneged on this and has left him with a variety of family members since, not her mother as they don't get on. (She's been gone two months).

My question is...

What will happen if I simply go up to Udon and take him from school and bring him back to Phuket with me?

Surely as the next of kin and his mother having de facto abandoned him I have every right to do this.

Your advice is greatly appreciated as I am about to buy my ticket up there. I am named as his father on his birth certificate by the way.

I think you'd best ask a lawyer.

I would hope that being the father you have more rights to be his guardian than anyone else if the mother has abandoned him and not set up a legal guardianship with another family member.

[Pakeha]

Sorry to hear about your situation. If you know any Thais who are connected I'd get them to go with you and / or put in a call to the local police chief. Be careful and take your time so that the decisions you make don't put you in danger.

Good luck.

[torrenova]

I would question what you did when she kidnapped the baby in 2004 ? Surely you made a report with the police - perhaps not.

I say it is going to be very difficult. Now if she is sending money back already then the family might not need your help but if she is not, then most likely they see your son as a burden which you could remove. In any case, money will likely win over.

Presuming you want to remain in Thailand then you've got 10 months to get to a position where you have her accused of abandonment or similar and you get custody of your son. If she comes back then this will never get resolved. You are going to need some legal assistance.

[Mario2008]

Being named on the BC is important. But what you ned to find out is if you are the legal father, in essence did you yourself registered the birth at the amphur or did someone else did this. If you did this yourself you are in all likely hood the legal father and have the right to decide the childs place of residence and can just take your son with you.

If you are not the legal father I would advise seeing a lawyer for proper legal advice about how to get legal guardianship of the child. In the mean time keep all the evidence you have of you having taken care of your son for so long and the mother dissapearing etc to build your case.

[philo]

Being named on the BC is important. But what you ned to find out is if you are the legal father, in essence did you yourself registered the birth at the amphur or did someone else did this. If you did this yourself you are in all likely hood the legal father and have the right to decide the childs place of residence and can just take your son with you.

If you are not the legal father I would advise seeing a lawyer for proper legal advice about how to get legal guardianship of the child. In the mean time keep all the evidence you have of you having taken care of your son for so long and the mother dissapearing etc to build your case.

Sorry for the OP's situation.

Mario:

If the ex was his wife (amphur), then he is the legal father. Right?

Is it some law that says that the legal father 'have the right to decide the childs place of residence'?

[Mario2008]

Sorry for the OP's situation.

Mario:

If the ex was his wife (amphur), then he is the legal father. Right?

Is it some law that says that the legal father 'have the right to decide the childs place of residence'?

Good point. OP talks about his ex, it is unclear if he means ex-wife or ex-girlfriend. If she is his ex-wife then the father will be the legal father.

Under Thai law parents hold joint costudy over the child and can thus decide the residence of the child. That is also in the case when perents divorce, unless agreed otherwise (or a court decision) parents keep joint costudy and have an equal right to decide where the child stays. Legaly the mother can take the child from the father and the father can take the child away from the mother. They can ask the court to award sole costudy over the children to one of the parents.

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/images/CCCT%20...%20marriage.pdf

See articles 1520 and following.

[torrenova]

Being named on the BC is important. But what you ned to find out is if you are the legal father, in essence did you yourself registered the birth at the amphur or did someone else did this. If you did this yourself you are in all likely hood the legal father and have the right to decide the childs place of residence and can just take your son with you.

If you are not the legal father I would advise seeing a lawyer for proper legal advice about how to get legal guardianship of the child. In the mean time keep all the evidence you have of you having taken care of your son for so long and the mother dissapearing etc to build your case.

I know we have been around this before but your wording here is different to before. Please tell me just how you think it matters who registers the birth with the Amphur ? Surely in most cases, the hospital checks details with both parents and then does it for them, providing the birth certificate from the Amphur to the couple before they leave the hospital.

Are you actually trying to say that the physical person who delivers a form to the Amphur can have a bearing on whether a parent is considered to be legally the parent or not ?

I think this issue is as clear as mud.

[Mario2008]

In the case the parents are not married the physical person who delivers the form to the Amphur is indeed relevant as to the question if the fahter will be considered the legal fahter of the child.

I come to that conclusion based on the fact that the Dutch embassy will not recognise such a birth cerificate as to the question who the legal father is. Apperently in case the parents are not married the father will only be the legal father if he registers the child himself, otherwise there is no legalisation of the child by the father. At least not one that is recognised by the Dutch government.

I can only advise to inquire about this with a Thai lawfirm if you want to be 100% sure.

[geriatrickid]

If you are concerned about the welfare of the child, then aside from seeking the advice of a lawyer experienced in family law, there is the Thai Family Services unit. (There is an office in Phuket town and comes under the MoH). That's the unit that can authorize your taking custody. You would have to demonstrate that the child would be taken care of and not be traumatized by a change of living locations. Does the grandmother live close to the child? If so, if and when you are authorized to get the child, it would be a good idea to take her along for the simple reason, that it is difficult for anyone to argue with the father about a child's best interests when the granny/ mother in law of is backing him up. As well, the presence of grandmother would calm things down. It won't be the "evil" farang coming to grab a child, but the immediate family coming to care for the child.

[JimmyTheMook]

Your name is on the birth certificate ?

If you have a copy , what are you waiting for ?

GO GET YOUR SON

[SomNamNah]

please be careful. The German loog krung opposite me was 'kidnapped' by the grandparents/mother with help from within the police from a German father in Thailand. The boy was 4? at the time. High ranking police were paid off. The German father has not been able to see the boy for 5 years now ( and they live in the huge house paid for by him)

If the thai's family have money and connections, you must go through a lawyer. If they are poor, you may have a better chance. I wish you the very best of luck.

Can you try and go through the Austrian boyfriend? reason with him? Might be worth a trip to Austria?

IF you go and get him. Please get some high police links. It may involve large sums.

Edited December 17, 2008 by SomNamNah

[barky]

Your name is on the birth certificate ?

If you have a copy , what are you waiting for ?

GO GET YOUR SON

I tend to agree with Jimmy. You are either the legal father or you are not? If not, then through the courts you must go. If you are, and you really want him, get him now!

Be prepared to pay off a few scummy cops and officials, but you'll get what is rightly yours one way or another. You may however need to consider escaping abroad with your child to live in the safety of your network of friends/family, (you have got a passport for him I expect) and maybe coming back later when the child has grown a little.

Oh, and if you have to resort to clandestine tactics, tell no one about your plans, plan it maticulously and never let your ex (as you call her) see the child ever again.

[Mario2008]

Your name is on the birth certificate ?

If you have a copy , what are you waiting for ?

GO GET YOUR SON

Bad advise, as merely being named on the BC means nothing. He has to hold costudy over the child to be able to take it away, otherwise it would be kidnapping.

[JacknDanny]

Your name is on the birth certificate ?

If you have a copy , what are you waiting for ?

GO GET YOUR SON

Bad advise, as merely being named on the BC means nothing. He has to hold costudy over the child to be able to take it away, otherwise it would be kidnapping.

I am NOT a lawyer,but have myself been through a custody battle in Thailand several years ago.

First point Mario, re the birth certificate, you are wrong. The fathers name on the Birth Certificate is the first thing that any lawyer or court official or judge will look at, therefore it is of prime importance that your name is on the Birth Certificate.

Secondly, I do not believe that it would constitute kidnapping if father removed child from school and took him to live in Phuket. He could quite easily claim that he believed it to be in the childs own interest. Possession being 9/10ths of the law

Thirdly I would suggest you seek the advice of a GOOD lawyer.

The questions I would ask the OP are these....

Where was your child between birth and 3 yrs old?

What did you do when your wife took the child?

What steps did you take to ensure your child was safe?

Why have you not already sought legal advice?

If you have financial independance, and depending on your answers to the above questions, I would say that you would have a good chance of winning custody over your ex wife/GF.

But as I said, I am a layman and you should seek legal advice immediately

[Mario2008]

I said, merely being named on the birth certificate means nothing. You can be the father all you want, socialy, biologicaly and legaly. In the ends what matters is if you have custody over the child. Take the child away without having custody and you are guilty of kidnapping, risk imprissonment and deportation and severely damage your chanche to ever get custody or even visitation rights.

I noticed OP hasn't reported back, so further reactions is senseless as to help him one needs to know more details. Best he can do is indeed get a good lawyer.

[JacknDanny]

. Take the child away without having custody and you are guilty of kidnapping, risk imprissonment and deportation

Thai Law does NOT recognise Parental Kidnapping as a crime in Thailand........ Immaterial of who has custody

But as you say since the OP hasnt been back, its a moot point

[Geekfreaklover]

You have the same legal rights as the mother in Thailand. And if the legal mother is not on the scene (in your case she has gone to Austira) then you are the next of kin. Not a string of relatives.

Go get him.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Geekfreaklover

[Geekfreaklover]

I said, merely being named on the birth certificate means nothing. You can be the father all you want, socialy, biologicaly and legaly. In the ends what matters is if you have custody over the child. Take the child away without having custody and you are guilty of kidnapping, risk imprissonment and deportation and severely damage your chanche to ever get custody or even visitation rights.

I noticed OP hasn't reported back, so further reactions is senseless as to help him one needs to know more details. Best he can do is indeed get a good lawyer.

Both parents on the birth certificate are legal custodians.

If she is not on the secne, or not in the country then he is the legal custodian.

Sole custody is only applied after divorce, if they have married. I can't see how they are still married if she has a visa to go to Austria. Unless she is on holiday.

More info needed.

[Mario2008]

Both parents on the birth certificate are legal custodians.

If she is not on the secne, or not in the country then he is the legal custodian.

Sole custody is only applied after divorce, if they have married. I can't see how they are still married if she has a visa to go to Austria. Unless she is on holiday.

More info needed.

Incorrect. Both names on the Birth Certificate doesn't mean both parents have custody over the child. The name of the father on the birht certificate means nothing without the parents being married or, if not married, the father having legalised the child. An unmarried mother can just name someone as the father, without that person knowing that. That's why the father has to confirm he is the father (legalise the child). No confirmation is no legal fatherhood. Only when the mother is married the law will asume that the husband is the father and no legalisation is necesarry.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Mario2008

[Geekfreaklover]

Both parents on the birth certificate are legal custodians.

If she is not on the secne, or not in the country then he is the legal custodian.

Sole custody is only applied after divorce, if they have married. I can't see how they are still married if she has a visa to go to Austria. Unless she is on holiday.

More info needed.

Incorrect. Both names on the Birth Certificate doesn't mean both parents have custody over the child. The name of the father on the birht certificate means nothing without the parents being married or, if not married, the father having legalised the child. An unmarried mother can just name someone as the father, without that person knowing that. That's why the father has to confirm he is the father (legalise the child). No confirmation is no legal fatherhood. Only when the mother is married the law will asume that the husband is the father and no legalisation is necesarry.

Yes, I can see that now.

Would help if we knew whether they were married or not.

[torrenova]

Strange then that the British government recognises a name on a birth certificate as being sufficient grounds to issue a UK passport ?

[Mario2008]

Indeed strange, if the parents are not married. In that case the person named as the father has to be the person registering the birth to confirm fatherhood.

That is the Thai law, but I don't know about UK law on this. Might be a wrong interpretation of the Thai law or simply UK law that is being applied. Can also be the case that the UK embassy accept a BC becouse the named father does the application and in that way confirsm his fatherhood.

[torrenova]

Indeed strange, if the parents are not married. In that case the person named as the father has to be the person registering the birth to confirm fatherhood.

That is the Thai law, but I don't know about UK law on this. Might be a wrong interpretation of the Thai law or simply UK law that is being applied. Can also be the case that the UK embassy accept a BC becouse the named father does the application and in that way confirsm his fatherhood.

I did think about that technicality that when the father applies for the UK passport he has to sign it and presumably that makes it legally binding stating that he is the father.

As for the Thai confirmation, I just remembered another thing. When I was in the hospital, the nurses in administration needed me to sign a copy of my passport before they could register the birth and get the birth certificate in my name. If that process has no validity as we are not married, then why would we have to go through that process ? Presumably the local amphur where the birth was registered and the certificate obtained retained these documents ?

[Mario2008]

Perhaps they retained the documents. But I understand that a Thai BC registers 4 things:

1. details of the child

2. details of the mother

3. details of the father

4. details of the person registering the child

If not married and the person named onder 3 and 4 is not the same there is no legalisation of the child. Legalisation happens also if the mother gets married with the named father at a later date. In other cases a court rulling will be necesarry to have the child recognised. The papers from the hospital might be helpfull in this.

About the question why you needed to sign papers at the hospital I can only speculate.

[torrenova]

Perhaps they retained the documents. But I understand that a Thai BC registers 4 things:

1. details of the child

2. details of the mother

3. details of the father

4. details of the person registering the child

If not married and the person named onder 3 and 4 is not the same there is no legalisation of the child. Legalisation happens also if the mother gets married with the named father at a later date. In other cases a court rulling will be necesarry to have the child recognised. The papers from the hospital might be helpfull in this.

About the question why you needed to sign papers at the hospital I can only speculate.

I'm going to try and get to the real bottom of this even if we have to go to the amphur where the baby was registered as, even under the sometimes potty Thai law, it cannot be so detrimental that the quasi taxi driver who goes and pays the Bt20 or whatever it is to get the birth certificate, effectively negates the official registration of the child as belonging to the father.

I also fail to see why a well established private hospital (in my case PIH) would even offer a service which creates so may problems.

I will report back with clarification but whilst I accept that almost anything is possible in Thailand, I really think there is a strong likelihood that whatever official forms were needed to be signed to make registration and legitimisation valid were actually signed and that the hospital merely acted as courier. That could explain the need for signed photocopies of our relative identity documents.

If it proves otherwise, then even the top hospitals need a serious kick up the behind.