For several years I lived in a Muslim area of south Thailand and I found it easier - because I am married to a man from there - to cover my hair when I went to the village to buy food. Sometimes I almost enjoyed the annonimity that covering my hair gave me.

My question here is not about what compromises you might make whilst marrying but more that have you ever really thought about who invented the idea of covering a woman's hair? And what significance does covering hair have in relation to male attraction to females etc? I am trying to piece it together thinking of the more or less fact that men like long hair (steriotype) and covering one's hair probably makes a woman less attractive in a man's eye???

I must say that some times I experimented and went to the mainland with a covered head and it was quite fun.

Of course if I was brought up in a culture that forced it upon me I guess I'd rebel.

Have any of you other TV women worn traditional Thai/Muslim dress to fit in with family or to experiment ?

no, and i never would. i simply stay out of those areas because i don't agree with the way they control their women.

I think the covering of hair is for the same reason that women in more strict muslim areas must wear chadors. Because women are considered a 'temptation" and therefor must cover themselves so as not to force men into weakness.

still stupid i think. as if men can't control themselves, it's all the women's fault.

I'll try to find a link to an interesting site where I read some varied stories all by women who wore the veil at some point. Some of them very positively identified with it and some didn't. Reckon SBK and girlX are right though it was probably invented to reduce the temptation of men.

Editing as just did a quick search - Don't forget that the veil is not limited to Islam (in case this debate goes pear shaped) it has been used thoughout history in most religions, weddings and places of work/worship etc. The Virgin Mary is shown veiled... Western nuns... it's just an interesting topic

Edited December 18, 200817 yr by Nampeung

IMO it is just another form of control. Telling women to make themselves less suggestive to men otherwise they will responsible for any attack or abused etc.

Also if I were a man I would find it highly offensive that certain beleifs suggest that I am unable to control my urges so must be protected from myself. All unacceptable to me so no, I wouldn't wear it & therefore probably wouldn't be able to form a realtionship with someone who expected me to do so either. I will also never visit countries where covering ones head is mandatory as I just find that kind of oppression unacceptable too.

I am very tolerant of peoples religions & beliefs but only if their reasons for beleiving or doing something are totally free from any kind of social/religious or family pressure.

My view is, if a muslim women (or any women) chooses to cover herself (fully or just head) then that is her choice but the social stigma within those religions & any laws forcing them to do so, has to be removed first, for it to really be her choice.

So if she decides not to, it has to be as accepted as if she does.

Heh, a bunch of typical Western attitudes toward hijab, the headscarf. I lived in an area of the US with a LARGE Muslim population. Women wear the scarf for two main reasons. One is because it is the cultural expectation -this is typical of Pakistanis in particular, and places like Iran which is a country being run by the Muslim equivalent of the Religious Right fanatics in the US. Most of the time, in most Muslim countries, it is a choice a woman makes. She chooses to obey the words of Mohammed (saw). Above and beyond all else, it is an expression of submission to Allah.

The non-religious benefit of wearing a headscarf is that men treat you differently. You suddenly become a real person, with your brain and personality your defining features instead of your looks. It's empowering, and the West is determined to paint it as oppression.

http://forum.netmuslims.com/showthread.php?t=5552

Sorry for butting into the ladies forum.

I’ve spent 2 decades working in a Wahabi Sunni country, made friends and interact with the locals on a daily basis.

The common reply to my questions to Mutawas on why women should wear the hijab is “Think of a woman as a piece of meat on display in the market. If the meat is uncovered it attracts flies and goes rotten. The hijab protects the meat and keeps it pure.”

Nampeung do some searching for a tribe near Riyadh. The women by choice keep their faces totally covered all their life. The children have never seen their mothers face and husbands have been divorced for trying to catch a glimpse of their wife’s face.

Think of a woman as a piece of meat on display in the market. If the meat is uncovered it attracts flies and goes rotten. The hijab protects the meat and keeps it pure.”

So basically, a women is an object & that if she doens't follow a specific rule created by men int he name of god (in this instance, covering her head), then she is dirty & less than a women who does. Hmmm, think a better anaolgy is needed imo!!

The non-religious benefit of wearing a headscarf is that men treat you differently. You suddenly become a real person, with your brain and personality your defining features instead of your looks. It's empowering, and the West is determined to paint it as oppression.

So you are saying that in muslim beleif men are taught that women who do not cover themselves are not deserving of common respect or hold a valid opinion?. Sorry catthy but I do not see that as empowering, imo it is the basic definition of demeaning. That a women with looks or even one who CHOSES to dress provocatively is not deemed to have a brain, personality or be a real person!! Again. not a great example imo & neither have done anything to change my mind that until the women herself choses, without the stigma expressed in both these examples or the rule of religion or law to cover herslef will it truely be a 100% free choice to do so or not.

I dont' think you can put this down to only a western point of view, my view is that of a women who thinks any women should be free to choose without fear of persecution or being treated as sub or less than human to wear what she wants.

Farma thanks, fascinating

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&sectio...;m=9&y=2003

Couldn't resist this one... cheer up guys/gals

I live in a Muslim village and many of the local Muslim women do not wear a headscarf and they are certainly not treated worse because they choose not to, neither are the ones who wear a scarf treated better because they do

Respect of other human beings is just that, respect and has very little to do with scarves, chadors or miniskirts.

sbk, exactly right, why a women should be treated differently because they wear a this or a that is the thing is most object to. If a women choses to wear the scarf, burkha or a full suit of armour is irrelivant, that she wont be treated badly or less than human for it is the important thing.

yes, exactly... if the woman chooses to wear it as a submission to allah, up to her... i pretty much despise religious dogma but i respect other peoples' freedom to have it. what i don't respect is treating a woman as a man's (or anyone's including her parents') property, or treating her like she is dirty and a temptation for weak men (buddhism actually has some aspects of this as well). there is far too much violence and injustice against women in the world in the name of tradition and religion. i boycott those countries and areas where this is prevalent and would never submit to their expectations.

Edited December 18, 200817 yr by girlx

i live in a country, and in the jerusalem area even more so, that a majority of married women wear head coverings/andor wigs plus certain forms of attire that identifies them as belonging to a particular sect of judaism (or islam) depending on the colours, lenghts, styles materials they are wearing. i can tell the women from different arab villages often by the type of head covering (scarf/ wrapped around, covering hteir faces, just like the jewish women's head coverings/snoods, pants, chador, beduin long dress, etc...)

www.modestclothes.com/jewish

or

http://www.headcoverings-by-devorah.com/

i put in the blurb cause i thought it would interest u all; not as an andvert to something (i go without a head covering although for a while i did wear a 'mitpachat' (scarf tied around all my hair... it was a phase like wearing more modest clothing... i still wear three quarter or so lenght sleeves etc.. its just from habit of living in the jerusalem area)...

read what the lady here writes: the word 'tzniut' means modesty and is used everyday and everywhere in israel: for style of dressing, of ways of behaving, talking, etc...

some of the head ties and ways the women wear them are amazingly beautiful.. some of the women dress in a way that u dont notice that they are 'tzniut'... they are gorgeous and glowing and attractive. others, like the super orthodox, are totally frumpy and horrible especially those that wear cheap wigs at the required lenght (yes there is a lenght requirment and half the women look the same: dark skirts and shirts with jackets, dark stockings, frumpy black flat shoes, and horrible cheap wigs )...

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hope this was interesting to u all to read/ puts a different perspective on things... i have many friends that wear wigs and u would never know it... others wear wigs that look like wigs cause they are more 'orthodox'... others just wear head coverings: some have some hair sticking out, others make sure of 100% hair covered... those that wear wigs shave their heads, some that wear head scarves do, but not all... some women cover their hair partially but wear their hair short, others keep their hair in a long braid and cover the braid also...

non of them find it demeaning, rather they find it as a way to say they are married, only their husbands see them with '' their hair down (a sort of intimate way of seeing a woman is when she is in bed, with ehr hair down), it identifies them as 'mothers', not single, anyway...

to most women growing up in a society that doesnt have this, it may seem wierd. to those of us (i've lived here 22 yrs) surrounded by it, it is just one more way of living your life/nothing forced or bad about it.

bina

israel

another site , dont need to read teh article just look at the pics of the different dresses and head coverings (also the group of girls wearing their skirts etc in a specific style, they are like the girl scouts of the less orthodox sects). and one soldier girl wearing a religous girl's uniform (long skirt and not pants).

was looking for other pics but have to go make food for sick daughter... so no time...

will try to find osme pics of some of the women i see every day... maybe next week i will photo some (cell phone sneaky style).

bina

http://www.peopleil.org/details.aspx?itemID=7646&index=2

http://www.peopleil.org/details.aspx?itemID=7646&index=2

bina what is the deal with the wigs? i lived in an orthodox hasidic neighborhood in brooklyn for a couple of years. i found those people to be very strange to say the least! the women dress very very conservatively, with long skirts, very thick pantyhose, and they have shaved heads! (though they wear the wigs in public). the men of course all wear those long black trenchcoats, with top hats and the long curled sideburns and beards. they are not allowed to look directly at or speak to women to whom they are not related or married (quite difficult and annoying when you are a woman and your landlord is hasidic). anyway, i wondered why the women shave their heads and wear the wigs? any idea?

oh p.s. according to a good male friend of mine, porn and sex shops in NY are full of hasidic customers!

Edited December 18, 200817 yr by girlx

girlx read what the blurb says:

they are not to show their 'womanhood' to anyone but their husbands; and 'tzniut'. however, they took it one step further like the moslems and the chador : they shave their hair so as not to be attractive since they are not attractive to their husbands for physical looks but for behavior as becomeing a woman: tzniut, keeping a good religous house, blablabla... and in the house they wear a head cloth over their shaved heads (in the hospital when i went to give birth, both othe women with me in the room wore wigs so when they slept or showered, they would put the wigs on the liter and a half cola bottles as wig stands and put a scarf on their head... it was very wierd... and the other times, i had rooms with young married girls who had given birth, they all had long beautiful hair but any time a guy ( a father, brother, whomever) came in the room, they had to pull the bed cover over themselves and their bare heads and arms until they got organized and put their head scarves on. as for looking at women: i got used to it a long time ago; we are a temptation to them so they are not to look upon us.

that is why the married women and all the girls sit separately in the temples/weddings/activities... and boys over age of 3 (the age of knowing the difference between a man and a woman) sit with the men/

btw, a woman i go to class with now bought a new modern real hair wig for 2000$!!! thats a few months salary for some of us so that is her way of showing what class status she has in the religious world (like gucci handbags)...

anon thinks its crazy and thinks the religous are nut cases (probably right) but has no religous tolerance either... rather surprising for thai.. but then non of the thai guys here understand the religous aspects here; the fasting, the praying four times a day , the clothing with all the stuff attatched to the praying (the little box the men put on their heads etc) , its all so alien to them they cant even begin to understand. they all think that muslem and jewish are the same!!! which i think is a riot.... ) he also didnt belieive that the women were wearing wigs until one day on the bus some old lady's cheapy wig slipped sideways. it made the whole bus hyterical with laughter, poor old lady (her tzniut was imposed upon).

finally anon has learned to differentiate between muslem and jewish women wearing headdresses etc; now he has to sort out the men.

bina

israel

Edited December 18, 200817 yr by bina

Thank you Bina darling as usual for a decent debate. Exactly the type of discussion I hoped to generate with the OP

Great thread!

Last month I had a complete post-menopause ob/gyn physical at Bumrungrad. That was a first for me, since a cardiac-related ultrasound found some uterine fibroids. I've had cardiac work-ups at Bumrungrad and been very pleased, but found the "female" area not as well organized or "customer-friendly".

My husband and I showed up for the day of tests at 8 am in the female area and found the waiting room full of many Muslim women and their husbands. After an initial consultation with a doctor, I was ushered into another area for the tests. Nothing was mentioned about my husband coming with me and the implication was that he was to wait in the initial intake area. At least, we thought that was the norm since I don't see family groups waiting with cardiac patients for tests in the area with other cardiac patients in hospital clothes.

The first thing they did was ask me to remove all my clothing (including underwear) and change into a pygama type garment. In the dressing room, I noted that the Muslim women seemed to follow the instructions to remove their clothing and put on the pygamas, but they also put their burkas or whatever over the hospital-issued clothing.

I had to wait for upwards of an hour between the various tests -- mammogram, ultrasound, xrays, etc. I was surprised to find that many of the Muslim husbands waited with their wives between the tests. I felt very naked -- sitting in a cold plastic chair, wearing pygamas with no underwear surrounded by women with more clothing and men who were eyeing me.

I think the next time I go to Bumrungrad I'm going to ask to be issued a burka when they want me to remove my clothing and wait. I now understand the attraction of wearing a burka to cover oneself from prying eyes. I also will ask that my husband come with me. It really seemed that a double standard was applied to western women vs. Muslim women. I wasn't the only western woman who noted this. One sitting next to me noted she felt very naked and had no idea that men would be allowed in the waiting area for mammograms.

Regarding other kinds of head coverings: wedding veils for example, they are an old tradition & like marrying in white is suppose to represent the brides virginity/modesty but not being one (a virgin) will not result in a women being persecuted, abused or threatened & if the bride doesn't wear a veil it wont create any issue at all either.

Nuns too: the habit is a uniform, one of a women who has chosen to dedicate her life to god excluding all others. The religion itself has not forced her to become a nun, neither has she been forced to become one by a 3rd party (husband, parent etc or society). She wouldn't be treated as a lesser human or potentially get attacked for not being a nun by her religious group. Priests too have uniform & head coverings so not an example of women being held to a different standard to men in their dress.

Again just my thoughts on it. It isn't the act of covering the head that I have a problem with but rather the implications behind why it is needed & who decides it is needed.

In most Islamic countries (as has already been pointed out) not wearing a veil wouldn't result in persicution. It's only the few 'bad' Muslim fundamentalist countries that enforce women covering. Many well educated women choose to cover their hair. I say well educated because there is an insinuation here that all women who wear the veil are forced into it by men. Not the case.

Just as wedding veils are old traditions, so is covering the hair in many many cultures.

Anyway, the topic was about the history of hair covering - not religion or female oppression

Why because someone covers their hair does it make them unnattractive? I often change flights in the middle east and see these beaaaaauuuutiful women wearing hijab with more make up on than I have ever worn in my life- how are they then less attractive to men than I am with my make up less face and my dirty hair?

Being a proper anthropologist, I now see the wearing of it, in most instances, as a cultural construct. The religious purpose has been lost. It is just 'what you do'. It connects you with your peers and labels you as being part of a certain social system. Think of the women in the 60s burning their bras. We don't see wearing a bra as something religious, however many of us would still feel pretty uncomfortable with her bubbas flying all over the place as that is just not what is 'done'. We all adhear in our own schema. To criticise is to be hypocrytical. And also to attach your own social experiences onto someone else.

What is not right, and never is, is for someone else to forcibly insist on a certain form of dress. We are born with free will. Most of the time we choose to adhere to our own social groups codes of conduct. Whatever they may be. But this should always be through choice and not force.

Edited December 18, 200817 yr by mssabai

Mssabai

Most of the time, in most Muslim countries, it is a choice a woman makes. She chooses to obey the words of Mohammed (saw). Above and beyond all else, it is an expression of submission to Allah.

That's not quite true, is it? Hardly their own choice when they've been brainwashed from childhood.

The non-religious benefit of wearing a headscarf is that men treat you differently. You suddenly become a real person, with your brain and personality your defining features instead of your looks. It's empowering, and the West is determined to paint it as oppression.

http://forum.netmuslims.com/showthread.php?t=5552

Jesus! Can you believe this liberal, feminazi bull? Wearing a veil is 'empowering'. 

Why stop there? How about a burqa? Heck, let's go all the way. Wear a chador. You'll feel even more 'empowered'. 

Here's islam (I refuse to honor that word with a capital 'I') in a nutshell-

I havent read each of the longer posts in details, so if this has been said elsewhere...oops

but we must put into context where Islam orginated/dominated. the customs started in the middle east, where theres blazing hot sun, and strong desert storm.

wearing clothes covered from head to toe is the customs for both male and female....for very practical purposes.

ofcourse since then customs and interpretations of the Quran has been used by various groups (quite often men) to their own benefit - citing the Quran (Holy Scriptures) and Allah (God) to make women do things that the men want

(as an aside example - the practice of having 4 wives - how many men Imams tell women and men that yes, the Quran says you can have 4 wives, BUT you can only do so if and only if your wives agree, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY that you must be able to provide for each of them equally - an impossible task)

of course in many Muslim countries women these days are subject to all sorts of abuse for every possible reason. wearing the head dress and covering up their bodies or not, is just one other excuse to legitimise violence against women.

(I see in some part of Muslim area where women still wear clothes that cover themselves from head to toe - but through tight fitting jeans and long sleeve tshirt, and wear a head dress. If the purpose is really to reduce male temptation...I think they need another interpretation of the Quran to serve this purpose)

miggy and all...

check out my thread then...

since i live in an area where u do see beautiful women wearing a head covering; also, among friends of mine, the mother may wear an head covering and a burka and one daughter may wear just a head covering and one might not wear anything at all... often it is the woman who decides and not the man in the family... a friend of mine who is half jewish and half muslem married a religious male friend of mine (muslem); he doesnt ask her to to wear anything different but she decided on her own that she wants to wear a head covering (raised with non strict moslem father and jewish mother; her brother wears a kippa and goes to a jewish religious school- ok its not a commong thing by far, but just to point out that generalities are just that-- but we often cant know what a person does in their own home, or why they decide to do what they do... its not from brain washing either, its from what they personally decide upon doing... whithin many families that i know of, (jewish religoius) the mother and daughters may dress slightly differently in lenghth of sleeves or skirt... it depends upon the communitiy in which they live and the peer pressure around them... which is why the sites i listed are interesting to look at

http://www.datilin.co.il/files_media/48dfd...90ae91eff9e.jpg

check out the pic of the different women. one has her hair showing, but it is short hair, the other has a beautiful 'mitpahat' (head scarf) in a wrap meaning that she is 'modern' and wants to look attractive with the head covering.

http://ofna.project.org.il/info/ofmuz-teachers/shula/s1.htm

this site is in hebrew but it is actually about the same things we are discussing here about muslem jewish and other groups that use head coverings, and also body coverings... just press on the links to see the photos never mind what is written; basically it is just explaining the parts of the body a woman may cover....

i just found a fantastic article written by an israeli woman who wanted to understand more about the 'head covering' thing among jewish women and she went and interviewed lots of women from the different sects. i didnt have the patience to translate but alot of the women liked covering their hair and revealing it only to their husbands; it gave them a kind of sexual /sensual power over their husband (not seeing the woman's hair makes it an erotic part of her body when it is covering or the most part. other women said they wanted their husband to see them as the 'inner self' w/o putting importance on external beauty. yet others just said that was the way they were raised and so they feel 'naked' w/o ... in other words, we who dont cover our hair see it as some sort of coercion from the men but those that do it dont always feel that way.

i always feel somewhat shocked when i go to the big city of sin (tel aviv) after being in jerusalem area all these years and i see women dressed with much less material on their bodies. i always have to do a switch in my head and even anon notices the different style (much more 'exposure').

we have tons of stores here that sell head coverings, and any woman that covers her hair knows what brands/hat makers/scarf brands are 'in' and waht ones are 'hi/so and what ones are from the shuuk (cheapy style). having a hat or a scarf head covering made by certain fashion houses are equivalent of wearing chanel or gucci . a new hat or new way of doing up the scarf is noticed by all your friends (even those of us who dont wear them, we do notice a new or different way of tying the scarf, or its in layers, or made up of beautiful colours... it is fashion, even high fashion, for us here.)

among the muslems it is the same. i see women wearinng many different styles, and many also buy their coverings in the same high fashion scarf stores as the religous jewish women... and the sales ladies dont blink an eye at a muslem woman walking in to a scarf store...

burkas and chadors can only be found in the muslem areas of the city, but the arab girls do buy their skirts and shirts from the same stores that cater to the female jewish religous consumer as the lenghths are the same.

i will try to photo some head coverings with my cell phone on sunday when i go to study, and up load...

by the way, i always do a double take when i see a muslem woman with a thai face. it doesnt file in my head ...

bina

israel

I have some very interesting events to share about my time working as Cabin Crew in Saudia Arabia...but I am sure you won't believe me!

Beautiful post Bina. Jingjing - tell us... go on

I can't help but notice some of these posts are made in clear ignorance. Islam is not one religion. There are fundametalists in every corner of the Earth, and even in the more relaxed sects (of every religion) there are the extremists. I converted to Islam when I got married. It has not changed my life much. I wear a scarf when I go home to the village, not because I am forced to or because I fear for my safety, but because it's a part of the culture I've been assimilated into, beacuse I like being covered up and I feel naked when everyone else is and I am not, because my mother-in-law gets a big smile on her face when she see's me, and (I'm not going to lie) because my husband thinks its hot!

There is so much stigma about Islam, especially women in Islam, that perhaps we in the west are "brainwashed from birth".

I don't know what it is like in the Middle East, I have never been there. But with my experience in Thailand and my home country - women run the show. There is no oppression in my house, or my in-laws (except maybe the father-in-law getting told what to do by mom and the sisters!)

I like the scarf. I like not doing my hair in the morning, I like not getting stared at when I go to the market, I like matching my scarf to my shoes and sarong. Really, I like the scarf for all the same reasons I like wearing a shirt when i go out in public!

I like not getting stared at when I go to the market,

What reason would you get stared at in the market if you didn't wear one?