Covering One's Hair

[pampal]

Why stop there? How about a burqa? Heck, let's go all the way. Wear a chador. You'll feel even more 'empowered'. 

Actually, the Chador is more revealing than the burqa

Try to get your facts right

[bina]

got some pics of wigs etc but cant get them off cell phone...

just really funny it was super windy today so many women getting on the busses were re straigtthening their wigs... couldnt photo them as religious women dont really like strangers taking pics... but took pic of friend from class with her 2000$ wig...

will work on uploading them later this week..

bina

israel

[Nampeung]

Sunspun well said Your personal experience is similar to mine. You and I don't take it seriously!!! I used to have a lot of fun choosing new scarves and ... between you and I, my husband found it hot too I'm in Britain currently and I often use a scarf in the same way if it's a blustery day at the beach. I don't care what onlookers think

[laceyjane]

Why because someone covers their hair does it make them unnattractive? I often change flights in the middle east and see these beaaaaauuuutiful women wearing hijab with more make up on than I have ever worn in my life- how are they then less attractive to men than I am with my make up less face and my dirty hair?

My boyfriend and I used to live in the South of Thailand, in quite a Muslim area, and we both agreed that many of the women wearing headscarves were REALLY attractive when dressed that way. I think that headscarves don't diminish the beauty of already attractive women, and that they even add an element of mystery which can be very attractive in itself.

[sbk]

Indeed, that may be true. For me, personally, I find the entire premise behind the need to wear a scarf, chador or even burqha to be fundamentally disturbing to values I cherish.

To each their own, as they say.

[laceyjane]

...

There is so much stigma about Islam, especially women in Islam, that perhaps we in the west are "brainwashed from birth".

I don't know what it is like in the Middle East, I have never been there. But with my experience in Thailand and my home country - women run the show. There is no oppression in my house, or my in-laws (except maybe the father-in-law getting told what to do by mom and the sisters!)

I like the scarf. I like not doing my hair in the morning, I like not getting stared at when I go to the market, I like matching my scarf to my shoes and sarong. Really, I like the scarf for all the same reasons I like wearing a shirt when i go out in public!

Again, well said! I think it's silly to call culture brainwashing. Every society has certain things that people, sometimes just men and sometimes just women, "just do". In most cases it's the cultural norm, not a terrible mark of oppression.

As for some earlier post about how wearing a headscarf/veil (or even just dressing conservatively!) makes it easier to talk to men, I think this makes sense. It's not because men are pigs and only care about women's looks, though this is true in some cases, or because there is a cultural assumption that women who dress provocatively are sluts, but because attractive and somewhat revealed females are distracting! It's hard not to pay attention to something so appealing staring you in the face. I say this from a woman's point of view and don't think it says anything negative about either sex

[Boo]

again, each to their own but if a woman feels she can't go out around (some) men for fear of being treated like an object or worse (& really, it has nothing to do with her attractiveness, ugly women get attacked too) then where are these men learning that it is ok to do so?

I haven't said wearing a head scarf/burkha/wig etc is unattractive, on the contrary, I see many nice designs & attractive women wearing them, only that many many more women than not are "forced/told/expected or feel they should" to wear one due to (certain) men being taught that those who don't are open to abuse (in one form or another). For that reason alone I would not wear one even if I really wanted to & no matter how good I think they may look

[sylviex]

Understand Boo's point about male attitudes. In Thailand, general male attitudes will have local men staring at foreign women's chests, whether small or large, due to learnt expecations.

Same goes for blondes or reheads, or any youngish foreign woman, really. So long as you fulfill certains conditions, you can meet a Thai man's fantasy.

Women who cultivate exceptionally long/thick hair -- and tend to flick or stroke it in public --are often sending out a message of availabilty. Google on any number of key words for more infiomation. Such women tend to be insecure with their personal and sexual identity, very eager for male approval & often have body image problems. (Sorry, if any of you fit the description .)

Covering your hair can indeed be liberating. I often wear a hat to protect my fair skin and enjoy the anonymity it also provides.

I have seen and worked with "drop dead gorgeous" professional Muslim women all over the world. They are as elegant, sensual and liberated as can be.

[sbk]

Women who cultivate exceptionally long/thick hair -- and tend to flick or stroke it in public --are often sending out a message of availabilty. Google on any number of key words for more infiomation. Such women tend to be insecure with their personal and sexual identity, very eager for male approval & often have body image problems. (Sorry, if any of you fit the description .)

Well, guess I am not so good with the google because such studies are not popping up on my searches. Do you have sources for this claim?

I'l be honest, to me, I don't see an equation in your above hypothesis and Muslim restrictions on women whatsoever. And neither can I see how certain (and lets be honest here) barbaric practices done in the name of Islam and perpetuated upon women have anything to do with it either.

Also, I have to point out that while you may find it liberating you are afforded that choice. Suggest you try reading that really marvelous book My Forbidden Face by the Afghan girl growing up under the Taliban before coming to that decision for women who don't have a choice.

[sylviex]

Sampson and Delilah and associated legends should get you started.

Early feminists cut their hair for a number of reasons ...

If you have ever been dragged along a street by your (long) hair into a dark alley, for a beating and rape, one reason might make sense to you.

[sbk]

Sorry sylviex, but I still don't see the correlation between that and women having poor body image/sexual insecurity.

I dont' have thick long hair, so no, its not me being defensive. I am just asking where you found these conclusions.

And as for rape,men rape little old grannies in their bedrooms as well, so it can't necessarily be about long hair or appearance, can it?

[sylviex]

Many Muslim women do make the choice.

I don't completely agree with the restrictions in some parts of the Arabic world, but have had numerous conversations with many Muslim women who like and agree with the way their cultures deal with life.

To be perfectly honest, I think the citizens of certain "western" countries are far more brainwashed .

[LadyHeather]

Perhaps you should read this interesing article regarding veiling. http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1108/p01s04-wome.html

I think that as long as women have to choice to cover or not cover their hair it is not an issue and to equate wearing a sunhat with an often culturally required head covering is not the same thing. I am not suggesting that Muslim women are being brainwashed, as you appear to be saying about western women whose viewpoints you don't agree with, but I think we can all agree that not all cultural norms, behaviors and attitudes are necessarily healthy or in a woman's best interest. Just because its is a standard cultural behavior doesn't make it right. Just as not every standard cultural behavior is wrong.

But I see nothing wrong with questioning the reason behind these behaviors and think that encouraging women to make these decisions based on their own personal beliefs is far better than suggesting that just because its a cultural norm its ok.

It used to be a cultural norm that women were owned by their husbands as well.

Edited December 25, 2008 by LadyHeather

[sylviex]

Thnk you misread me somewhat, Lady Heather.

I am an unabashed feminist.

[Boo]

if western countries are brainwashing their women then I would much prefer to be brainwashed so as to not justify the need to pander to the silly idea that men are unable to control themselves unless I cover my head or that making myself less desirable means a man will treat me as a person deserving of good manners & decent treatment is the right idea. I will happily allow any daughters I have to be brainwashed by that

Merry Christmas ladies

[Nampeung]

''Anyone whose sole source of knowledge about Islam has been the Western media, "knows" that Islam "oppresses" women. The hijab or veil, is the symbol of such "oppression." To "liberate" Muslim women from such "oppression" has been the cherished goal of media pundits, Western "experts" on Islam, and the feminists.''

''Should not we listen to the woman who was raised and educated in the west, had first hand experience of the status of women in this society, then studied Islam and observed the life behind the veil, decided to cross the fence against all the propaganda about immediate doom, and has enjoyed life ever since? That woman does not exist in the propaganda world. She is never allowed to speak on the pages of "prestigious" publications. She has no rights! She is the one you should be listening to, to find the truth. She speaks on these pages. Listen to her.''

http://www.albalagh.net/women/hijab.shtml

Very interesting article on the subject here girls

Edited December 26, 2008 by Nampeung

[Boo]

not really showing me anything to change my mind tbh. no more enlightened than I presume you think I am. Just another biased point of view & one I still don't agree with;

My hijab is not a part of my racial or traditional identity; it has no social or political significance; it is, purely and simply, my religious identity.

Really, then why say;

As a foreigner in Paris, I sometimes felt uneasy about being stared at by men. In my hijab I went unnoticed, protected from impolite stares.

This is clearly a social issue imo.

I heard one girl telling her friend that I was a Buddhist nun; how similar a Muslimah, a Buddhist nun and a Christian nun are!

In her opinion only, imo to be a nun is a lifelong commitment to god & not anything to do with men, wearing a veil has a lot to do with men, from what she has written. Nuns also don't' get married, have kids or make themselves sexually available to any man, she married so has not dedicated herself to her god in the same way a nun has, has she?

Once, on a train, the elderly man next to me asked why I was dressed in such unusual fashion. When I explained that I was a Muslimah and that Islam commands women to cover their bodies so as not to trouble men who are weak and unable to resist temptation, he seemed impressed.

Again, what is noble or liberated about perpetuating & pandering to these kinds of views?. And what is so wrong about objecting to them? I asked it earlier but it was never answered; Who is telling these men that if a women isn't covered up then she is fair game to abuse? Is this really a teaching we (as human beings) want to encourage?

Muslims are accused of being over-sensitive about the human body but the degree of sexual harassment which occurs these days justifies modest dress. Just as a short skirt can send the signal that the wearer is available to men, so the hijab signals, loud and clear: "I am forbidden for you."

The Prophet, Allah's blessings and peace on him, once asked his daughter Fatima, May Allah be pleased with her, "What is the best for a woman?" And she replied: "Not to see men and not to be seen by them." The Prophet, Allah' s blessings and peace on him, was pleased and said: "You are truly my daughter." This shows that it is preferable for a woman to stay at home and avoid contact with male strangers as much as possible. Observing the hijab, when one goes outside, has the same effect.

lol, just what i want my kids believing...not!!! I said in earlier posts, the covering of oneself can be for various reasons and that is up to the women doing so but whilst there are still people who support & perpetuate these idiotic assumptions that women have to cover up so that men can be protected from themselves then it is not a practice I will support or agree with. For every women who says she can chose to wear or not there are thousands of women who do not have a choice in very much at all.

It is an error of judgment to think that a Muslim woman covers herself because she is a private possession of her husband. In fact, she preserves her dignity and refuses to be possessed by strangers. It is non-Muslim (and "liberated" Muslim) women who are to be pitied for displaying their private self for all to see.

Here she shows her own true prejudices clearly imo, coupled with another quote about her embarrassment at seeing her sisters wearing shorts, is even more telling. She sounds to me like a prude. That she uses the word Pitied is also very telling. Why pity someone who is neither restricted by religion or family about what they can or can't wear. If I chose to go out in a bikini or a burkha, the choice will be mine alone. And it is my choice also whether the reaction of strangers will bother me or not. She also suggests that by showing some flesh a woman has no dignity & is putting their priavte self on display. So in her eyes, women are only the physical, the private self is only the body? Not particularly enlightened is she?

[Boo]

I appreciate the attempt here to explain personal feeling towards covering up ones hair but that article has just reinforced my own view of the practice specifically within Islam.

If I go out with a hat on for example I don't' think one way or another that I am becoming anonymous or that men (or anyone) is treating me differently. I usually would wear a hat cause it was cold/hot/bad hair day only. No other connotation attached.

Now, if I were to go out in a burkha or a head scarf then I am sure I would get a totally different reaction but as I already said, I wouldn't due to my own personal belief that there is still too much an element of control & female restriction associated with them.

[sbk]

Again, let me suggest to you to read the book My Forbidden Face written by an Afghan woman forced to wear the burqa under the Taliban. It is a Muslim woman's perspective, written by a Muslim woman who had no choice in whether or not to cover up.

[Nampeung]

Sorry SBK who are you meaning to suggest reads ' let me suggest to you to read the book My Forbidden Face ' ?

[sbk]

Plural you. Suggesting to everyone. Its an insightful and disturbing story this woman has to tell.

[sunspun]

I like not getting stared at when I go to the market,

What reason would you get stared at in the market if you didn't wear one?

Because I am blonde, blue eyed and tall. I don't exactly fit in!

"Again, well said! I think it's silly to call culture brainwashing. Every society has certain things that people, sometimes just men and sometimes just women, "just do". In most cases it's the cultural norm, not a terrible mark of oppression."

About 10 years ago, in my city (in Canada), there were 2 women who decided it was unfair that men were allowed to go topless in public and women were not. So, they drove around in a open air jeep with nothing covering their breasts, then went to a public swimming pool where the police arrested them and they were charged for indecent exposure. Please tell me how that is different? It is what your society or culture deems normal. I'm sure a women deep in the jungles of africa who has never worn a shirt to cover her breasts would find it oppressing too!

And on a side note, I have never met a muslim man on the beaches of Southern Thailand who has a problem with women sunbathing topless (police included). If you did that anywhere in Canada on a public beach, you would be arrested.

[Boo]

Because I am blonde, blue eyed and tall. I don't exactly fit in!

As I am, I never felt the need to cover my head cause of it though. You have presumably been tall & blonde (maybe ) your whole adult life. Did you wear a scarf when you first came to Thailand, before meeting your husband?

And on a side note, I have never met a muslim man on the beaches of Southern Thailand who has a problem with women sunbathing topless (police included).

LOL of course not. But would they have a problem if it were a women from their family?

[mssabai]

I know plenty of non-muslim Thais who have a lot of issues with people sunbathing topless in the south of Thailand. I have seen people getting quite angry about it, however the strength of the western money along with the non-confrontational attitude of the Thais means nothing is said. They really don't like it, however they are embarassed about how to broach it. I have been asked to go and talk to a girl who was walking around a restaurant topless. It is certainly much more culturally offensive to sunbathe topless here than in the UK, it's just many people chose to ignore that.

[Boo]

My LOL, was about thai men not having a problem, most young thai men with a pulse, like seeing a partially clad women as much as the next man. Muslim or not. It does offend many though I agree.

I have seen too many examples like that mssabai. I lived in Hua Thanon for years, a predominantly muslim part of Samui & on more than one occasion stopped tourists walking around in Speedos & Bikini to let them know they would cause offense. On the main beaches though, you are right, the tourist dollar excuses & creates tolerance for most any behaviour.

Mayeb they need to crack down on it more but it isn't (afaik) illegal to sunbath topless in Thailand. (It maybe but like everything else, is not enforced, see sunspuns example above where police don't stop it either!!)

[sbk]

Living in a Muslim village and being quite close with my Muslim neighbors and understanding everything they say, yes, they find topless women on the beach offensive. And Koh Phangan Muslims are a very laid back bunch of people. But no, in fact, I can't say that there isn't a traditionally living Thai person on this island (Buddhist or Muslim) who doesn't mind topless and inappropriately dressed people. Like its been said, they just don't say anything.

I guess I fail to see the similarity between going topless against normal cultural conventions in large swathes of the world compares to a religious requirement to cover ones hair imposed upon people whose cultures are not similar to the one that invented the idea in the first place. So, while it may be a cultural norm in Saudi Arabia, it was not a cultural norm in SE Asia until it was imposed by a religion.

[girlx]

I know plenty of non-muslim Thais who have a lot of issues with people sunbathing topless in the south of Thailand. I have seen people getting quite angry about it, however the strength of the western money along with the non-confrontational attitude of the Thais means nothing is said.

i was just going to reinforce mssabai's point but SBK beat me to it. the thais definitely are offended by topless bathers, and girls who come in to dinner and shops in their bikinis, walk into the village without covering up etc. even the less traditional thai guys are happy to look and make lewd comments, but they would never respect someone so immodest. modesty is a very big priority in thailand.

[Nampeung]

GAWD! May as well join in since everyone's digressing from the OP. I think topless sunbathing is unacceptable in any culture. Men, on the whole, much as some of them don't want to, think with their nether regions when they see naked women. You tell me about one heterosexual man who doesn't get turned on by the sight of women's bare boobs? It's not polite to display ones body like that in public and these social 'laws' were made for a reason