Our Builder/us Accused Of Poisoning Pond Fish With Paint/thinner Dumping Across Road

[MJP]

Seems like your neighbour is out for some farang cash. If you don't want to move I suggest you negotiate a settlement, guilty or not.

For the love of God DO NOT DO THIS!

Contaminated land remediation is my business in the UK and elsewhere. I don't know the clean up costs in Thailand, but you are looking at HUGE money.

Do not accept liability.

Get the water tested yourself, independently. You need to get it tested for chlorinated solvents as well as getting a GC-FID fingerprint and/or a GCMS Broadscan analysis as soon as possible.

Then, using a sample of the 'paint thinners' get a GC-FID fingerprint and GCMS Broadscan done of that, to compare the two samples and establish whether there may be a link.

Do not tell anyone you are doing this.

These guys look ideal for it.

http://www.ncalabs.co.th/services.html

PM me if you need any other help.

Thanks much appreciated MJP. will first see how it develops.

I have NO intention of accepting liability or guilt on something I do not believe.

I could not access their land without permission or not being seen immediately by one of their family.

In the first instance I expect them to make a seemingly valid case with reasonable suggestion for proof. Not some local friend testing but a certified body capable of such testing.

This is not a dumping or company dumping situation the photos show a tiny level of material (not damaging) just overflowing inside their fence from the road side .

They gave the builder permission (and said to my wife he could put stuff near their fence - obviously a little would go across.

If they want us to listen they first have the burden of reasonable proof to substantiate their wild (in my view) accusations. Fish dying is not proof - just a possibility.

Dave

Yes, best to see how it develops. I doubt it will.

Keep a sample and a tin of thinners used at the site in any case.

[Crushdepth]

These guys are just looking for someone to blame. Fish kills are not unusual at all - disease, low (or high!) temperatures (often leading to disease), oxygen depletion at night (particularly if the pond is overly green with algae or has had a large amount of organic matter added). Around my work we quite sometimes get fish kills immediately after rain, which is thought to be from weed killer sprayed around the ponds getting washed in.

I suggest ignoring your neighbours and try not to get dragged into seeing the headman or you might be forced to offer a deal to keep the peace. If you are forced to offer something, try offering to buy some young fish as token compensation!

Do you have any knowledge of risk of cement mix. I understand that is tiny as it will only really affect (maybe) PH alkalinity only if in large amounts)

A small amount of cement mix shouldn't harm the fish since its mainly lime anyway. If you added enough it might cause mechanical damage to the gills, but there are cheaper, more effective and less obvious ways to poison fish. Like bleach.

[geriatrickid]

There are some excellent comments in here, so I will try not to repeat the science part again. However, there are 2 points that stick out;

1. The paint thinners as the alleged agent of death and

2. Adults dying and not fry.

If there was a toxic spill we would see an indiscriminate kill off of the population and more importantly, the fry going first since they are more susceptible to such contaminants. I didn't see the chemical composition of the paint thinners mentioned. But, as was previously mentioned, the aromatics found in paints vaporize quickly and don't mix well with water over time. Besides, if you were using an acrylic paint, the paint brushes would have been washed with water, right? The other jobs you mentioned, wouldn't produce enough paint thinner dumping to do the damage described.

It just doesn't add up to see such an instantaneous kill off for such a small quantity of paint thinner.

I think what you may need is an autopsy done on the fish. OK, not what people think, but a verification of the cause of death. As was stated by others, it would seem that there is a chance there is either a bacteria, parasite or virus source of death. The source of water is questionable as well, what with it coming as run off and drainage originally. For all you know, the toxins may have already been present in the water, but as the water levels decreased, the toxins became concentrated.

As an aside, I agree strongly with the observation about proper testing and the time it takes to get results. It isn;'t instantaneous, unless someone is bringing a high tech lab on wheels. Outside of a few national health agencies, they don't exist. You might get indications of a chemical or heavy metal presence from a rapid test, but verifying ppm etc. will take some time.

I think someone is in trouble with his business and needs a handout. Don't give in. Your view that next year will bring the same scenario, is correct. Sooner or later you will be forced to make a stand, so best to do it now.

[JustinCredible]

Could I suggest that in addition to getting the water tested yourself, you get your wife to ask for 2 or 3 of the dead fish so that you can take them for testing as well.

I understand that there is a vetenary section within Khon Kaen University - sorry I don't know where, but I am sure that they would welcome the challenge of identifying the cause of death

I hope that this gets resolved amicably and quickly. It must be a real worry to you.

Justin

[gdhm]

Thanks a million Everybody. An incredible response that I never expected and also some real high level science and details as well.

All quiet today (hope not lull before the storm) but I understand a little extra from my wife having spoken to her Uncle (builder) and a neighbour of ours.

1) This of course is hearsay. She says the termite treatment lady originally also accused who offered IF proved to pay something and it was SHE who was told about the village loan of 10,000 Baht to stock the pond .

The non involved neighbour told my wife that she believes the pond owners wife (the only one saying anything - husband has said nothing) has backed off the Termite lady because somebody told her that the ladies husband in quite senior in the local prison service and she is nervous of his position. I repeat this is hearsay.

2) I asked my wife yesterday if her Uncle was on good terms with the Village Head/ chairman as the pond owner wished a meeting with him and my wife's Uncle and whether the Pond Lady was or not. My wife said she did not know. Today my wife found out that the Man in question told the pond owner (once again hearsay) that fish are dying everywhere locally (this IS a fact) and that he is sure she is experiencing the same which is much more certain than her accusations.

I am told they expected him to visit them and the pond earlier today and he did not turn up. No idea why not, if he did later or will another day. I do not know if true, or if so whether a sign he thinks his time is being wasted. I do know no meeting has been set up with him the pond owner and our builder yet that she was trying to arrange (our builder has not been the cause - he is ready)

I understand that the Lady is dismissing the increasing overwhelming build up of views that she is just unlucky like many others locally. I suppose she is worried about her loan but that does not give her the right to go after others and worry them with accusations with no supporting evidence. She has not even been confronted with many of the views and info provided here in this Forum.

3) My wife's Uncle spoke to his cousin who said don't worry there is no evidence and the ability of the pond owner to identify and connect any pollution if present in the pond with him (had it been true would be very difficult and probably costly. Even if they found contamination they would need to prove it was HIS beyond reasonable doubt, not on the land before, not theirs or others etc. etc. Just having some cement mix inside their boundary is not proof.

The cousin appears on KTV (Cable TV) a lot my wife says (I learn something every day even 2½ years into our marriage) as he is a senior police officer in the criminal records dept (or something like that ) covering I understand KK and Bangkok (think that is the gist of what my wife said ).

This news made me very happy NOT for intimidation reasons. I do not believe in that sort of thing. Equally had the pond owner been correct they are entitled to lawful redress. But as I do not know what friends the pond lady has (which she implied loosely to my wife yesterday if my wife, I and the Builder did not address their concerns) or her honesty (which at present seems dubious) she may be much more careful of false evidence or unfounded accusations if she knows the Builder has a senior police officer as a relative who knows the law. I would not hesitate to refer out of order behaviour to the police anyway (relative in the police or not).

I am convinced our builder is innocent. There is no sign of suggestion he has contaminated their land (except the tiny superficial patch in the photos near the road under a square metre, and no sign of bottles of thinners, smells at that site. I have never seen more than a few bottles of thinner in the house which we have been living here for 2 months (as he was still IS late finishing) and we had to move in. I would have seen dumping or large numbers of thinners and there is no way I would have allowed such a thing and neither would the POND OWNER either had it been happening BUT IT NEVER HAPPENED. The pictures you see are ALL the "pollution" he has caused - minute by any building standards.

--

Justin thanks for your good wishes (and others) YES it is a real worry.

The truth is we are NOT worried about the builders guilt, but the fact this is Thailand and "tea money", friends with influence, corruption sometimes override truth, proof and justice. That is our ONLY fear and the fact many Thais think Farangs are always rich (we certainly are not the house building has absorbed nearly everything) and that we should and will pay for a quiet life guilty or not. I am a principled and honest man and do not easily subscribe to paying for no guilt.

Once again thanks to all.

Dave

[gdhm]

Yes, best to see how it develops. I doubt it will.

Keep a sample and a tin of thinners used at the site in any case.

Well it actually comes in small brown bottles with very tight bright canary yellow plastic tops (small beer bottle size One has "AAA" Thinner on it and the other "Fish something (poor name in the circumstances " all other words are in Thai).

I think several bottle brands have been used (all in the same style brown bottles and we only have contents of one type. They buy a bottle a at a time as and when needed. Only seen very few in total.

regards

Dave

[MJP]

Yes, best to see how it develops. I doubt it will.

Keep a sample and a tin of thinners used at the site in any case.

Well it actually comes in small brown bottles with very tight bright canary yellow plastic tops (small beer bottle size One has "AAA" Thinner on it and the other "Fish something (poor name in the circumstances " all other words are in Thai).

I think several bottle brands have been used (all in the same style brown bottles and we only have contents of one type. They buy a bottle a at a time as and when needed. Only seen very few in total.

regards

Dave

Dave,

Fear not. The burden of proof is on them. Just make sure you retain some ammunition.

[candoman89]

MJP Contaminated land liability??? In Thailand??

They don't have a land registry / land use info going back more than the present time so you can always say ("ITS NOT MY FAULT")

Been doing Phase 1 and Phase 2's here for almost 10 years. Seen TONS of issues but never ONCE has anything come of it. In fact one multinational oil company contaminated a whole village's water supply in Phuket (near the roundabout thingy between the airport and downtown) and nothing happened other than suppply the locals with water.

For the cement issue all it will do is theoretically raise the pH (cement has calcium hydroxide) but the water is well buffered so nothing will happen.

DON'T waste your time with water analyses at KK university....bad results are worse than no results at all.

Fish autopsy..okay sort of. Are the gills flared out and the back arched? If yes this is typical symptom of oxygen deficiency.

I must comment that this topic has stirred a lot more interest than I thought it would. Bars must be closed or something.

[JustinCredible]

I must comment that this topic has stirred a lot more interest than I thought it would. Bars must be closed or something.

Maybe we do not like to see other "Aliens" being "Ripped off" by the locals!! Some people do care ou know.....

[gdhm]

UPDATE to all who have so kindly taken an interest and been so supportive with Info

Today my wife has been told by another neighbour (once again hearsay) that she was told by the wife they have probably decided to back off and let it lie.

Sure hope so and if so that we can get back to normal relations. Maybe our house warming in hopefully a month (when the builder finishes -IF ever) may present an "Olive branch" "face" saving situation IF the accusations have been dropped.

I am a very honest man and would never do harm, nor try to avoid genuine responsibilities - but we and our builder are not guilty of this one, even if the pond Owner is guessing we may be.

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OFF TOPIC I KNOW

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More unassociated trouble last night (Never rains, it pours )

My wife, stepson and I were all in bed 9pm. I was watching TV and the others asleep (still sharing a bed due to builder not finishing stairs and upstairs yet after 10½ months).

I heard a couple of metallic sounding clangs and peered out of the window. There was a drug or drunk crazed young man on a motor bike across the soi from our front gate, throwing builders builders rubble onto the land of our (pond) neighbours land opposite (hope she does not blame us for that as well ) .

He was really REALLY angry about something and muttering at times. He then paced up and down and picked up a bamboo pole and started hitting hel_l out of the electric cables concrete pole across the road (luckily he did not hit any meters at the same level). After 10 mins he drove off.

I went outside and found several fist sized cement rocks near our car and on our driveway. Luckily I cannot find any damage or dents to the automatic gate or car. Seems we were very lucky the rocks did nto quite make it to the car (one was only ½ metre away must have been slowed/deflected when passing through the gate grills).

Am sure we were not a target just wrong place at wrong time, otherwise he would have only concentrated on our house. Nevertheless it is a reminder our house is big, better than many around here. Although we have little spare savings people may thin us rich and be jealous, To many it suggests rich Farang (who some Thais hate due to jealousy of our buying power and ability tempt their young ladies purely coz the ladies are materialist (In all honesty I sympathise very much with the young men on this one).

We are potentially a target for thieves or farang dislikers and as we are only 0.8km from Bung Kaen Nakhorn amphitheatre and fountain. As many youngsters gather every night in the several 89 Baht buffet restaurants and bars areas we are likely to occasionally get drunk yobbos down our road.

Told my wife not to call police as we have no help for them on identification of person or bike as too dark and we would just waste their time. Equally unless very serious or ongoing we do not want future revenge visits and I think it was an isolated not to be repeated visit.

Our NEXT DOOR door neighbour this morning warned us about going out after 7pm to 8pm as drunks do increasing get belligerent down near the bars at the lake at night. Last night he told us he thinks there there was a fight at the lakeside fountain and some lad was killed or badly injured with knife wounds. He suspects the lad I saw may have been connected in some way (but of course maybe not). I have no idea but he seemed crazed, out of control and clearly upset and angry (not just drunk/drugged). If police ask for info I will of course come forward and say what I saw but doubt it will be of help.

Sure glad we have 2-3 meter walls, with barbed wire in top and solid grill son all windows and doors, alarms system and PIRs. If a crazy did try to get in at night that may slow him until the police could get here. (MAIN Police station is only 2-3 kms away).

We will remove the builders small amount of concrete rubble from the other side of the road. Told my wife we MUST BE CAREFUL that it is not interpreted by our Pond neighbour as trying to remove evidence should they wish to pursue the matter(even though it is roadside and NOT on their land). Luckily, I think they saw the incident last night so they will be happy ammunition is being removed from drunks reach if any more wander down our soi.

Also told my wife to make sure where it is dumped is OK to dump. We want no more problems. Why she does not tell her Uncle to remove it I do not know (its his rubble). I think I will never understand ladies and especially Thai Ladies thinking in this life time.

As I said earlier "Never Rains, it pours" TIT.

Some Land of Smiles. Soon Imm. and Visa control will be paying tourists and guests to come/stay here with all the troubles at present.

Take care all and thanks again

Dave

Edited December 30, 2008 by gdhm