Moo Baan Wants Us To Pay Them For Them Not Building A House!

[DavidOxon]

Hi guys . . .

We bought a plot of land in the moo baan where we currently rent (Chinag Mai).

We went to their office to discuss what their building company could do for us.

Their attitude was so 'couldn't care less' that we looked elsewhere for a builder

and found an independent contractor whith whom we are very happy.

The moo baan would now like us to pay them 30,000 baht for them Not building our house.

There was no mention of this on the paperwork we recived on purchasing the land,

or when we went to see them about building.

Seems a bit steep for 'free' water (which is metered!)

Anyone else come up against this and got round it without paying?

They've phoned a couple of times asking for the money, I've asked for a bill first

as it would be interesting to see how they itemise themselves NOT doing something!

No bill forthcoming as of yet, but I know Thai people have paid in the past.

Thanks for any help

David

(PS I thought I'd send them a bill for me not doing something for them, see if they like it )

Edited December 30, 2008 by DavidOxon

[slapout]

Most moo baans in the CM area have vacant lots which people have bought on speculation that lot prices would increase. As this did not occur in many cases the lots were sold to people who used a private contractor such as you did. I do not know of anyone who has been asked for this type of payment but TIT so I am not real surprised. As you say the water is metered, paving etc are in lot cost. Is it a gated moo baan? Maybe they want the security fee paid up front, but that would pay for a lot of security, depending on number of houses involved, and this is normally a monthly fee, which can be paid yearly for a discount. Keep us posted as to what the fee is for etc, and good luck. What moo baan is this?

[DavidOxon]

This is just a fee for building the house

Moo Baan fees will be payable once we move in.

David

[Deke]

Are you sure that the 30K is not a deposit to cover any damages that might be done to the roads or other common infrastructure by your contractor? I think this type of deposit is a normal requirement.

[DavidOxon]

No, it's not a deposit! It seems to be a tax, but not sure if it's legal. I've never signed anything

that agrees to this charge in principal!

david

[Pib]

You sure this ain't the fee for life time (of the home) garbage pickup/community area maintenance (not including your personal water usage) which might apply to any homes built in the Moo Baan/housing development. If so, the fee is probably based on the square WAH of the land....bigger/smaller the land...bigger/smaller the fee. That's how they do it in my Moo Baan here in Bangkok and all of the dozen or so Moo Baan's I scoped out in Bangkok before finally buying our house here in Bangkok. Recommend you set down with the building company and ask them "exactly" what the fee is for, what the fee provides you, etc. Take the Thai wife/GF/good friend along to help minimize any communications disconnects.

[Thompo]

Recommend you set down with the building company and ask them "exactly" what the fee is for,

And bring a lawyer.

Or, the next time they contact you, just tell them to send the itemized bill directly to your lawyer, and give them the address of of the highest ranking one in town.

Chances are you won't hear from them again, and if you do, just tell them that he's yet to recieve it so send another copy. then repeat.

Do it Thai style.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Thompo

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Recommend you set down with the building company and ask them "exactly" what the fee is for,

And bring a lawyer.

Or, the next time they contact you, just tell them to send the itemized bill directly to your lawyer, and give them the address of of the highest ranking one in town.

Chances are you won't hear from them again, and if you do, just tell them that he's yet to recieve it so send another copy. then repeat.

Do it Thai style.

Potential problem with doing it "Thai style" is that after the house is built and the OP is living in it, the "Thai style" solution to the earlier problem might turn around and bite him in the a.....

There can be long memories on the Thai side in getting bested in a financial deal, especially if you're close at hand.

Sorry, but I have no real solution to the problem except to perhaps negotiate down the fee a bit.

Mac

[torrenova]

I think this is brown bag money which equates to loss of profit or thereabouts. Basically total crap but loss of expected profit can be incorporated into a contact so be careful.

I'd hazard a guess it is illegal and that it represents their kickbacks which they will now no longer receive.

I would not pay it though one would need to be familiar with the situation to know exactly what course of action to take.

[noise]

You sure this ain't the fee for life time (of the home) garbage pickup/community area maintenance (not including your personal water usage) which might apply to any homes built in the Moo Baan/housing development. If so, the fee is probably based on the square WAH of the land....bigger/smaller the land...bigger/smaller the fee. That's how they do it in my Moo Baan here in Bangkok and all of the dozen or so Moo Baan's I scoped out in Bangkok before finally buying our house here in Bangkok. Recommend you set down with the building company and ask them "exactly" what the fee is for, what the fee provides you, etc. Take the Thai wife/GF/good friend along to help minimize any communications disconnects.

As Slapout said earlier and Pib says here, this is the same as in my Chiangmai Moo Baan. Garbage, guards, common ground maintenance, etc., all get paid by the home owner. And I know several people who are paying 30,000 baht per year for that because of the size of their lots. So it seems like it might be reasonable; didn't charge it as long as you were not living there, but now....???? But, as they say, the devil is in the details and it all depends on your particular circumstances and location.

[DavidOxon]

No, this has Nothing to do with routine maintainence, plot size etc, etc, it's just to compensate them

for loss of earnings for us not choosing them to build the house - which they could have done if they'd shown a bit more intrset in doing so. Our monthly bill will be 500 bht which is fine. I'm waiting for an invoice...

I'm guessing they'd rather not send one, having them send it to a lawyer might be a good plan

but... the moo baan owner lives just around the corner and has 5 VERY large dogs!

david

[DavidOxon]

Bump! They've been on the phone again. Apparently it's for wear and tear to the

private moo baan infrastructure! and 'free' water.

There's nothing about it mentioned in the paperwork supplied when we

bought the land off them, and they seem reluctant to invoice me, rather

they want me to pay and they'll give me a receipt ... the 'normal' way.

I was talking to our builder and he said that other moo baans (such as Club World) charge

40,ooo baht to use outside builders.

Is this legal? How can I resist. If I (or the wife) don't pay, can they enforce it thorugh the courts?

david

[Lizard]

Tell them to fly a kite - get your private contractor. Have them so you the legal print for this type of Thai-Frang robbery.

[DavidOxon]

Nothing to do with me being non Thai. Our new Thai neighbours had to pay, but as they

bought the land 18 years ago, they managed to negotiate it down a bit. I'm just not used to

paying bills with no notice, no contract, and no agreement.

David

[dave111223]

Your definitely doing the right thing by holding out for the bill/invoice.

No one in their right mind (thai or foreign) would make such a payment without receiving some kind of invoice/receipt in print (including official company name/address etc..).

So just put it out of your mind until the bill arrives (if ever). If there is anything dodgy about the payment (which it seems like there could be) they may not want to put down all the details in an official invoice and the payment request may just disappear....

Once the bill comes just try and negotiate it down a lot...

Edited January 13, 2009 by dave111223

[sabaijai]

Not enough information. Await invoice.

[mackayae]

Go to the Land office and show them the deed to the land. Ask them if there are any restrictions on building a house on your land. Also go to the Tesaban and ask them the same.

A lot of moobans have that clause in their contract. However, if it is not in your contract, you could negotiate a settlement.

[RAZZELL]

All that grief and stress over 30k or £600???

You're talking about your house and where you're going to live...

Pay them half...then if they insist pay the other half...not quite so painful that way

RAZZ

[Khun Jean]

RAZZ, can you give me your address?

I have a cousin that needs some money so i guess he can aks you some money and give you a receipt.

It is only 20.000 baht, so just 400 pounds.

Not too much to go argue about, right.

And when he gets the money he has some friends that would like to do the same, not for 20.000 baht but for only 5.000 baht, just 100 pounds. That is almost nothing!

[dsfbrit]

Its an unpleasant situation isn't it.

Its all very well people quoting the law at you, but YOU have to live there amongst all the unpleasantness. I had a similar situation relating to money.

The new housing commmittee wanted me to pay 38000 Baht, it has now been agreed at 12000 Baht per year. I was being asked to pay an annual fee that was totally unrealistic. It is on another thread in TV and related to maintenance payments in my gated community.

This got to the stage where I was 'eye balling' one cocky grinning Thai and 4 other committe members at my front gate. I decided that I would rather sell the house (no one would buy it I expect in this market) and suffer my hospital bills than live here knowing they had 'bullied' me into making this unfair payment. They backed down, but I was lucky!

It was a depressing 6 weeks and I am glad its now sorted out.

I was lucky though, as unknown to me it turned out I had the support of some others in my communtiy. They too had refused to pay. I did not find this out until afterwards and I suspect had it been just me holding out, then it could have got really 'messy'.

So, TIT, I would suggest you find a way to 'save face' for yourself and the Thai management as well.

It may not be so 'macho', but you have to live and walk around your village in a relaxed manner for many years to come. 'Winning' against these people and saving 30000 Baht is really not worth the long term hassle IMHO.

Good luck

Edited January 13, 2009 by dsfbrit

[quiksilva]

dfsbrit makes a good point.

I expect that this payment is there to partially recoup the loss profits that could have been made on the construction of the house, usually in the region of 15-20%.

Sure they will say that seeing as you have external contractors coming in, your guys can't be trusted not to break anything, so perhaps they are seeking this as a security deposit? If so, offer a bankers guarantee, as doubt you'd get a cash deposit returned.

[Pib]

Your definitely doing the right thing by holding out for the bill/invoice.

No one in their right mind (thai or foreign) would make such a payment without receiving some kind of invoice/receipt in print (including official company name/address etc..).

When we bought our new house here in Bangkok, our "lifetime/one time" community mx/security fee was based on square wah of the land and listed as a sub-component cost of the total cost to buy the house. The fee was 400 Baht per square WAH. Other listed items were water meter, electric meter, etc., initial procurement/account setup at very nominal prices. We almost bought a used house (16 yrs old) a year earlier in the same MooBan and when we asked the owner how much the annual/monthly community area mx/security fee(s) were the owner said zero as she had already made the lifetime fee payment when she originally bought the house 16 years earlier...and she said she has never paid (or been asked/billed to pay) a fee since, and any new/future owners don't have to either as only the first/original buyer pays the fee to the MooBan.

[RAZZELL]

RAZZ, can you give me your address?

I have a cousin that needs some money so i guess he can aks you some money and give you a receipt.

It is only 20.000 baht, so just 400 pounds.

Not too much to go argue about, right.

And when he gets the money he has some friends that would like to do the same, not for 20.000 baht but for only 5.000 baht, just 100 pounds. That is almost nothing!

Very funny...Some people can't see the wood for the trees

The point I was trying to make is that the OP stated the guy in question was his neighbour.

Is it worth upsetting him with the subsequent "loss of face" when you intend to live there? 30k is rather a small percentage of the total build cost considering nearly any house will cost in excess of 2m+ to build plus land...

Is it worth all the subsequent grief and hassle? Just put it down as an "additional expense" and move on...

RAZZ

[Khun Jean]

So are you a man or a mouse. Crawling in the dust now (losing all of your face) will set a precedence for the future. If he wants money, make him give a specified bill.

If you give in this time, the next time it will be something else. If it is a true amount a bill would not be a problem. If he does not want to give a bill, then it is a scam.

Some fall for it, others not. Would you do it in your own country? Or is Thailand some mystical country where people loose their common sense and give in to everything just to maintain a good relationship? In my opinion the relationship is damaged from the start by him asking for money without anything to back it up.

No bill, no money. Easy as that.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Khun Jean

[UncleFrank]

Tell him the bill should be sent to your book keeper.

Next.

[mouse]

So are you a man or a mouse. Crawling in the dust now (losing all of your face) will set a precedence for the future. If he wants money, make him give a specified bill.

If you give in this time, the next time it will be something else. If it is a true amount a bill would not be a problem. If he does not want to give a bill, then it is a scam.

Some fall for it, others not. Would you do it in your own country? Or is Thailand some mystical country where people loose their common sense and give in to everything just to maintain a good relationship? In my opinion the relationship is damaged from the start by him asking for money without anything to back it up.

No bill, no money. Easy as that.

I take exception to that. I am the "MOUSE" and I also would not pay without a invoice.

[RAZZELL]

So are you a man or a mouse. Crawling in the dust now (losing all of your face) will set a precedence for the future. If he wants money, make him give a specified bill.

If you give in this time, the next time it will be something else. If it is a true amount a bill would not be a problem. If he does not want to give a bill, then it is a scam.

Some fall for it, others not. Would you do it in your own country? Or is Thailand some mystical country where people loose their common sense and give in to everything just to maintain a good relationship? In my opinion the relationship is damaged from the start by him asking for money without anything to back it up.

No bill, no money. Easy as that.

Another cyber warior...

RAZZ

[dsfbrit]

Although I would urge you make a 'face saving' compromise, I too would not pay without a bill being presented.

In fact, at last there would be an advantage to the house/land being owned via the 'company route'. I would say the accountant would need the bill for the annual company accounts.

So no bill, no pay is quite a reasonable and sensible approach in IMHO.

In fact the 12000 Baht I mentioned above I agreed to pay, has still not been paid as they have not presented anyone with a bill yet.

If your house/land is not owned via this route then you can still say it is I guess, or that you have to prove this payment to a 'third party' who has lent you some money as part of a mortgage.

Good Luck with all this...

Edited January 17, 2009 by dsfbrit

[mgjackson69]

There are some good points made here.

I would certainly insist on an invoice. Just state, "I need an invoice for my taxes". It is a bullshit line, but Somchai is not going to know that, especially since he has no idea what your tax requirements might be for your home country...whether there are any or not is immaterial.

Whether you pay, do not pay, or try to negotiate it down...up to you.

[Khun Jean]

So are you a man or a mouse. Crawling in the dust now (losing all of your face) will set a precedence for the future. If he wants money, make him give a specified bill.

If you give in this time, the next time it will be something else. If it is a true amount a bill would not be a problem. If he does not want to give a bill, then it is a scam.

Some fall for it, others not. Would you do it in your own country? Or is Thailand some mystical country where people loose their common sense and give in to everything just to maintain a good relationship? In my opinion the relationship is damaged from the start by him asking for money without anything to back it up.

No bill, no money. Easy as that.

Another cyber warior...

RAZZ

Indeed a mouse. I hope you survive.