Bma Boost Security Measures In Buildings After Night Club Fire

[pjallittle]

Guys - dont be too hard on Thailand.

Shutting the door after the horse has bolted? Ok, yep, sure. But to be honest, most of OUR western health and safety rules are in place under precisely those circumstances.

It unfortunately takes a terrible tragedy for people to learn from their mistakes, identify the problems and try to do something about it.

On the face of it, Thailand is doing something. Yeah, it may be too little too late, but at least it appears to be a step in the right direction.

Frankly, it's better then doing nothing isnt it?

I entirely agree, these same kinds of tragic accidents have occurred in nightclubs in the USA despite having ordinances, laws, experienced investigators and responsible personnel. Accidents happen and will obviously happen more often when the level of activity is heightened such as when celebrations are likely to to take place.

Just recently, a store employee was trampled to death by eager shoppers who, in their frenzy, knowingly ignored the prone body to get to their bargain goods.

Officialdom is responding appropriate to the circumstance, it isn't a case of too little too late. what should they do, stay silent?

[hardy1943]

Guys - dont be too hard on Thailand.

Shutting the door after the horse has bolted? Ok, yep, sure. But to be honest, most of OUR western health and safety rules are in place under precisely those circumstances.

It unfortunately takes a terrible tragedy for people to learn from their mistakes, identify the problems and try to do something about it.

On the face of it, Thailand is doing something. Yeah, it may be too little too late, but at least it appears to be a step in the right direction.

Frankly, it's better then doing nothing isnt it?

I hope it is more then just talk and no action. Did you noticed the changed the electrical building code last year to 3

wires and 1 is actually a ground wire. Well it is a start.

[Veazer]

i think that one measure of how long one has lived in thailand is how many times they have heard the expression 'crackdown'... or possibly the true measure is their reaction to hearing it.

[gosmond]

Were you around when many lives were lost in a Pattaya hotel fire some years ago - fire exits locked etc etc. Same promises made then as now. I am sorry, but your optimism for a safer Thailand in thenear future is ill founded.

Edited January 6, 2009 by gosmond

[username36]

I noticed this sentence in particular: "Mr. Pongsakti said if the committee finds.....".

And the price for not being found is......

Which was also my first thoughts!

[Zombienation]

Sprinkler systems are what is needed most of all in such large venues. I didn't see that on the list.

For condos/apartment blocks/hotels external fire escapes would be nice. Don't see many of those! If a fire started downstairs in my block, everyone would die.

[markg]

i think that one measure of how long one has lived in thailand is how many times they have heard the expression 'crackdown'... or possibly the true measure is their reaction to hearing it.

Yes it's a fair point Veazer. We have to remember that Thailand is a 'developing' country.

It's developing y'see. Albeit slowly, but still developing.

When i first came to Phuket, just about no one wore motorcycle helmets. Now, a reasonable percentage wear them.

Drink-driving used to be rampant. Now they have breathalyzer machines and education campaigns.

Change wont happen overnight. It's a DEVELOPING country. It needs time, education and help.

Slating the BMA for just talking and doing nothing may be a bit early and a bit unfair.

Yes - we all know about corruption. Have a dodgy nightclub, pay the money and the MIB look the other way. We all know the clubs in our areas of Thailand that are somehow able to flout the 1am closing time............5, 6 or 7am is all possible if you know where to go.

Corruption needs addressing.

How?

Pay the cops a decent salary for starters!

If you are over about 40 years of age, you may remember what it was like in YOUR own country when you were a kid. We too had quite a lot of endemic corruption. Cops earned a pittance and so had to be on the take to make a decent living. England doubled the cops wages, and threatened them with COMPLETE loss of pension, plus a long stretch in solitary confinement if they were caught on the take. By and large, corruption died out. It certainly isnt endemic anymore.

Give them time. Give them encouragement to change things. Dont just stand by and say 'this wont work'

Tell em what the <deleted> WILL work !

[Erich]

the feelings of (false) superiority oozing from most of the posters so far in this thread makes me nauseous.

Seeing is believing, can the corruption be cut off ?

[Zombienation]

Inspecting buildings is only one element... I see no mention of controlling the number of people allowed in clubs. I visit a Bangkok club designed for 400-500 yet they routinely cram in 3 times that number on weekends and probably 2000 on New Years Eve. If there was a fire there is no way a large crowd could get out of the building and the soi outside is very narrow. Where I come from the Building Inspector or city establishes an occupancy permit for a safe number of people and there are waiting lines outside clubs when they are "full".

Very true! I went to Curve along Ekamai, not far from Santika. It was so packed it was impossible to make it to the toilets. Had the whole crowd surge effect, where you get lifted off your feet and moved involuntarily. A huge seething mass of humanity, no room to dance and difficult to even lift a drink to your face without knocking someone. I left quickly. A fire there and the death toll would've been higher than Santika. The doormen just let everyone in, no count, no limit. Money, money, money!

[FRK]

"... will inspect security measures of the buildings of cinemas, hotels, department stores, apartments, markets and other structures which can affect lives and property of the public."

Nightclubs are not in the list.

[markg]

"... will inspect security measures of the buildings of cinemas, hotels, department stores, apartments, markets and other structures which can affect lives and property of the public."

Nightclubs are not in the list.

Wouldnt they be counted as 'other structures which can affect lives and property of the public' ?

[TJAN]

First of all: when the premise is of one of the "ruling" class, no police will ever dare too enter.

Second: the Thais have to know to what they have to look. Probably a farang has to instruct them for a couple of years, showing again and again and .. again.. and ... again.

Last: even when anything is found... handfull of THB and eyes are closed

laten wij nu even ons mond houden Volendam ligt nog vers in ons geheugen,wij farangs denken dat we alles weten.

We dutchmen better keep our mouth shut some years ago we lost a lot of young people in a bar in Volendam when the christmas decorations got on fire.We from the western world think we no it all but I rather been in Thailand then in any other country,and I have been in a lot of places all around the world and not on holliday's.

[wrecker]

so... this means they're going to close the entire city????

Not even PAD could do that!!!

In the real world... ya... right.... special committee...

Yes not only closing the entire city, but we are also helped by the fact that ALL Bangkok Policemen and all people responsible in the fire department and all city councillors as well as most judges who have given temporary permits will be prosecuted and end up behind bars. Unless.... This is just another political ploy to please voters and mislead them and foreigners reporting about it.

The chap who came up with this plan must have really using too much prozac.

[thetravellingcat]

Inclined to believe them, they lost ALOT of face in this fiasco as foreign tourists and hi-so's alike were hurt and killed.

[jamora]

I think that using the excuse that Thailand is a "developing" country is kind of lame.

True that you have to learn from your mistakes, but the really wise once can learn from the mistakes of others. All of Scandinavia and a lot of Northern Europe learned their lesson in the 1998 disco fire in Goteborg that killed 63. We did not need a fire in each country to tell us something was really wrong, all we had to know is that clubs burn just as well in Denmark as they do in Sweden (or Thailand for that sake). I think Thailand sometimes need to be better at learning from the rest of the world, instead of being "a bit to" nationalistic and self proud. But I truly hope they will learn from this one! Else it will surely happen again!

Jakob

[gbswales]

Plenty of Farang obviously didn't know what to look for when they decided to spent their time in Santika

Farang or not, the fact is that if you really looked at safety issues wherever you went, then you simply would never go anywhere. I dont incidentally think Thailand is alone in this I have seen apalling risks taken in clubs and other venues, even in the UK. The fact is that we are all pretty complacent and rarely bother to act or report anything. How many of us even bother to check the basic escape routes when visiting a club, theatre or restaurant? Most people dont even read the safety notices on the back of their hotel room door! What a sad beginning to 2009 for the relatives and friends of those who died.

[mrtoad]

I think it is to early to be judgemental. Yes, we all know that this tragedy could have been avoided if there was proper enforcement of laws, but at least they are trying to look at doing somethihng. It appears to many, that they are dammed if they do, and dammed if they dont.

If the tea money element for officials can b e clamped down on, then there might be some development.

[meelousee]

"Yeah, it may be too little too late, but at least it appears to be a step in the right direction.

Frankly, it's better then doing nothing isnt it? "

No it isn't! Because this is just talk. For a start how can a committee inspect buildings? The rules and inspection systems are already in place, but never enforced.

After this tragedy a few farang owned bars/gogo's/guesthouses may get fleeced for a few thousand baht but then that will be the end of it. Till the next tragedy.

Chris

Yep I agree 100%

I wonder if anyone remembers the fire many years ago in Chang Mai, 20 German tourists fried. They setup rules and inspection system then, along with the fire in Pattaya again setup rules and inspection system.

So now they call for inspections that were never done in the first place.

[Africanteacher]

Good job! ('',)

Now wait till Chatuchak Market burns and lives are lost then they'll start installing fire equipment and emergency exits....

But good job, still there!

[Jai Dee]

laten wij nu even ons mond houden Volendam ligt nog vers in ons geheugen,wij farangs denken dat we alles weten.

We dutchmen better keep our mouth shut some years ago...

Without understanding what you have responded here, I will ask you to respect the Forum Rules in replying in English please.

13) English language is the only acceptable language on thaivisa.com, except of course in the Thai Language Forum where Thai is encouraged.

Thank you for your understanding.

[snuffleupagus]

To all those that are piling on the criticism, what do you propose they do? nothing? As another poster said, "damned if they do, damned if they don't".

I too am pessimistic that anything will change as a result of this tragedy but at least give them some time to try and rectify the situation. The fire safety issues aren't going to get fixed overnight but hopefully in the coming months we'll all be pleasantly surprised and start to see some progress.

[MobileContent]

This would mean the hundreds of small guesthouses on Khaosan and Samsen have to all shut down.

[STEELINOX]

Yeah right; the lack of oversight alone will condemn this futile effort to make any places where people amass safe ~ LOL, "lipstick on a pig, anyone ! We've got cherry, pink, gareen, red, purple (500B note) "

Thanks,

Randy

[Scott]

I would propose that they do nothing. If they do nothing, then we all know that nothing has been done and we can do things at our own risk. When we think and believe that gov'ts do enforce laws and regulations, but in fact they aren't, then we get into real trouble.

I was in a shopping mall when a fire broke out. People in restaurants weren't allowed to leave. They hadn't paid their bills! There was little assistance or guidance in where to exit. Lots of guards, but they didn't seem to know what to do. Fortunately, it was a small electrical fire with only some smoke . About 15 minutes later they reopened and about 1/2 after that the fire started again. On the good side, they did have fire alarms and you could hear them. There were also plenty of exits--including to the parking structure.

Thailand has had way too many big fires and things never seem to really change.

[shiatsuman]

It's a disgrace that it takes a tragedy like this for the people incharge to sit up and actually do something. That night club shouldn't have been operating with no fire exits and so many people. It seems that the place was an accident waiting to happen.

I like the note, ' ...strong legal action will be taken against the operators or owners even if they are influential persons.' Nah...I don't think so. I think they will be allowed to continue to run their deathtraps until the next fatal accident.

but only "little influential "

not "big influencial" nah?

[MEGALITHIC]

Safety in Thailand: A Short Term Mindset

The fire at the Santika night club was tragic but it reinforces the point that safety standards, in Thailand, are sadly lacking or, in many situations, nonexistent.

Before going on I’d like to mention that I work in an industry that lives and breathes safety. The thing is though that it wasn’t always this way. Twenty to thirty years ago, workers were being killed, or seriously injured, on a regular basis. After the Piper-Alpha disaster, there was a serious rethink of how things were done and one thing that became apparent was that the mind set, of all involved in the industry, needed to change. The emphasis became one of developing a safety culture where long term thinking was the key to putting sound, reliable safety systems in place. Therein lays the problem for Thailand and the Thai mentality. Thais, by and large, are not long term thinkers. Their tendency, from what I’ve seen from living here for fifteen years, is to always look at the short term gain.

Care and regard for the safety and welfare of others is not something that can be instilled in people easily whose mindset is one of short term gain. If it’s taken twenty years to get to the point, in the industry I work in, where a culture has developed where you not only continually look for hazards, in the work place, but you also understand that you have a duty of care towards your staff and workmates, what chance is there that there’s going to be a fast change in the mindset of people in this country. The fact is that it’s going to take a very long time, if it even happens at all.

From the most basic things in life, like driving safely, to the construction of buildings which have/will have a high human traffic flow, the mindset must be one of doing things correctly every time. Sadly, and catastrophically, the lack of that mindset was not in place on New Year’s Eve at the Santika night club. Live flame in a confined area, without adequate controls in place, is never a good idea. I haven’t read anything yet indicating the size of the crowd that was in there but one could almost guarantee that the exit points were completely inadequate for the numbers that were trying to get out. As far as any type of deluge system is concerned, the lack there of was, more than likely, overlooked by the licensing authorities once the correct amount of tea money had been paid.

For the families of the deceased, and those who suffered injury, unfortunately there’s little likely hood of any real compensation. Compensation would mean that somebody would be held accountable and being accountable, and paying compensation, is something that the Thai ruling elite/business class find distasteful. It actually means that someone made a mistake and, as we all know, being shown to have made a mistake means, god forbid, loss of face.

And, just as with all the other disasters which occur because of this short term mindset, lessons won’t be learnt and the same mistakes will be repeated. The opportunity to make a fist full of cash will always outweigh the idea of doing something correctly. We will continue to see ferries that are overloaded and capsize in rough seas. We’ll continue to see poorly constructed buildings with no proper fire and emergency exits in place; or exits that are locked because the owners want to prevent thieves from entering. We’ll see waterslides that collapse due to poor, or no, maintenance. We’ll continue to see ridiculously high fatalities on the roads because people won’t obey road rules or learn to drive safely.

So there it is. To change the way things are, there’s got to be a change in the mindset. A change from ‘How much can I skim off the top’ or ‘what short cuts can I take to be able to make more money’ to one of providing a genuine duty of care to customers/patrons/participants to ensure their complete health and safety in all premises and facilities in this country.

Don’t hold your breath.

[shiatsuman]

It's a disgrace that it takes a tragedy like this for the people incharge to sit up and actually do something. That night club shouldn't have been operating with no fire exits and so many people. It seems that the place was an accident waiting to happen.

I like the note, ' ...strong legal action will be taken against the operators or owners even if they are influential persons.' Nah...I don't think so. I think they will be allowed to continue to run their deathtraps until the next fatal accident.

but only "little influential "

not "big influencial" nah?

[noelani]

BMA boost security measures in buildings after night club fire

Santika Club after the fire on January 1, 2009. Photo: MCOT

BANGKOK: -- Responding to the fire at the Santika Club which left 64 people dead on New Year's Day, the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration (BMA) has set up a committee to inspect and improve the safety of buildings in the Thai capital.

Permanent Secretary of the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration Pongsakti Saemsan said after a meeting with BMA's senior officials that the special committee will inspect security measures of the buildings of cinemas, hotels, department stores, apartments, markets and other structures which can affect lives and property of the public.

The inspection criteria include installation of fire extinguishers, emergency alarms and fire exits.

Mr. Pongsakti said if the committee finds any building to be substandard, it will be closed immediately and strong legal action will be taken against the operators or the owners even if they are influential persons.

The BMA assigned the Disaster Prevention and Mitigation Department to convene a meeting with building owners next week to instruct them on building security measures.

BMA deputy permanent secretary Pongsakti will work with officials of the the capital's district offices to build understanding with the public and to distribute handbooks on safety measures in case of emergency.

-- TNA 2009-01-06

[drbrit]

I am confident the majority of cinemas, department stores, hotels will be in general compliant (at least those more modern structures). I note that nightclubs was not specifically listed however, and we all know the overwhelming majority will not comply with regulations.

What they should really investigate is the Police. Because it is they that overlook illegalities, do not provide any enforcement as they are on the regular payroll for allowing this to happen. Until the Police are held accountable for enforcement, and for failures, nothing will change.

It must be later than I thought. I am dreaming

[carbine1125]

i wonder why all you " farang" living here in this "dangerous" country don't stop bitching and accept that yeah maybe it is a bit like closing the stable door after the horse has gone but maybe instead think, ok well maybe some good will come out of the tragedy and stop this happening again! maybe you should go back to your safe expensive big brother controlled countries and live happely ever after. give the Thais a break. if it was not so of the cuff in Thailand you would not be living here in the first place......