Journalist Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion...nd-fair-is-foul A crucial year, when foul is fair and fair is foul <H3></H3>By: THITINAN PONGSUDHIRAK Published: 9/01/2009 at 12:00 AM Newspaper section: NewsWhat has transpired in Thai politics during 2001-2005 is being undone and redone during 2005-2009 and beyond. Whether the new Democrat party-led government of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva can maintain old-style Thai politics that prevailed prior to the rise of deposed former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in 2001, will be the overarching theme of 2009. The pro-status quo coalition that expelled Thaksin from power in September 2006, when the People's Alliance for Democracy came into being, have so far succeeded beyond expectations in its restoration of pre-Thaksin Thailand, contrary to the forces and dynamics that were unleashed during his rule. As Thailand's political clock has been wound back by a decade, the pressing question for the coming year is whether it can be kept there in the face of rising expectations and growing political consciousness previously unseen, underpinned by the inexorable drive of democratisation. The writer is Director of the Institute of Security and International Studies, Faculty of Political Science, Chulalongkorn University. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Absolutely right on. Excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumnien Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 A rare glimpse of truth in the otherwise vacuous Bangkok Post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 The force of history would suggest that rising expectations and growing political consciousness, once unleashed, cannot be easily subdued and reversed. I don't see any evidence of rising expectations or growing political consciousness among Thitinan's beloved reds. What I see is obstructing rival's election campaign, shouting at dying people in the hospital and threatening political opponents with shit bags, and that's just in a couple of days. They don't have a single, credible reason for their existence. Every report about their rallies mentions their worship of Thaksin. They should move past his sorry ass to become a real democratic force. How can Thitinan talk about democratic movement led by people like Chalerm?!? What kind of growing political consciousness does he rerpesent? I'm afraid recent red activities will render Thitinan's leftist theories bankrupt very very soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilM Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I don't think there's much sign of a rising political consciousness in the way suggested here either. Giles Ungpakorn's analysis of the situation a year or two ago was refreshing because of the balance it provided to the accepted mantra of 'rural types are too stupid to think and vote for themselves.' But to say that Thaksin's rise and support was evidence of a rising rural consciousness is just as simplistic in its own right. There have always been people in the villages who have followed and had a keen awareness of politics. I don't know why people expect reds/Thaksin supporters to be big on democratic principles. The "rural masses" (whoever they may be) were voting for someone who was giving them more than anyone else. They weren't voting for Thaksin because he promised greater democracy but because he was giving 30-baht healthcare, giving them loans, killing off drugdealers etc. Fair enough, people were voting for the one they thought would bring the most benefit to them. That's what we all do. That's the way it's been rural areas for a long time anyway. But though Thaksin now styles himself as a champion of democracy, I don't think he ever suggested or initiated any type of democratic reform which would allow ordinary people a greater role or say in things and the running of their own commnunities and lives? Not any serious attempts at education reform - the Democrats have always had an edge in that policy area. One of Chuan's few achievements as PM was to preside over a period of real development for press freedom which Thaksin squeezed the life out of. And when in power Thaksin had goons beating up elderly protesters at shopping malls with the police looking on, long before the PAD idiocy emerged. Thaksin's lasting achievement has been to put issues like healthcare on the political agenda. It's funny that the reds are complaining that this government is copying their policies. That's the way it goes in politics - other parties coming to take your ground and your voters (I don't know if the Conservatives in the UK ever cried foul over a Labout government looking like a bunch of Tories). It should be seen as a compliment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricardo Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 The pro-status quo coalition that expelled Thaksin from power in September 2006, when the People's Alliance for Democracy came into being, have so far succeeded beyond expectations in its restoration of pre-Thaksin Thailand, contrary to the forces and dynamics that were unleashed during his rule. my highlight above. It's no big deal, but I would expect an academic to get his facts right, or the editor to spot this sort of boo-boo. The PAD were already active in 2005. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johpa Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 As Thailand's political clock has been wound back by a decade,.... I might be tempted to make the argument that the clock has been wound back several decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetsetBkk Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion...nd-fair-is-foul A crucial year, when foul is fair and fair is foul By: THITINAN PONGSUDHIRAK ...Representing Establishment forces, the holy trinity of military, bureaucracy and monarchy have returned to the apex of Thai society at the expense of parliament, parties and politicians, as democratic rule is subsumed under Establishment preferences.... The writer is Director of the Institute of Security and International Studies, Faculty of Political Science, Chulalongkorn University. Sums it up nicely, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baht&sold Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 (edited) Just curious, what exactly would the Mr Bean/Journalist's etc wish for Thailand now? (as in right now) Me (and probably the majority) 'smply' wish Thailand to move forward finally (as in any time now...already) Of course recognising this would run counter to the 'stop the world evolving dammit' vested crowd. Good luck with your obvious agendas (possible opportunities as stringers for 'The Economist' spring to mind- despite the fact they missed a global economic downturn) EDIT: PS, sad to hear a pro-Thaksin journalist can't get a pay rise these days... Edited January 9, 2009 by baht&sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maizefarmer Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 A good read...... lets see how Mark turns out(?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadman Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion...nd-fair-is-foul A crucial year, when foul is fair and fair is foul By: THITINAN PONGSUDHIRAK ...Representing Establishment forces, the holy trinity of military, bureaucracy and monarchy have returned to the apex of Thai society at the expense of parliament, parties and politicians, as democratic rule is subsumed under Establishment preferences.... The writer is Director of the Institute of Security and International Studies, Faculty of Political Science, Chulalongkorn University. Sums it up nicely, unfortunately. Agree. And well described..."the holy trinity". Must remember that. This current PM needs to get it right and the UDD rudderless or not needs to gnaw at his arse to ensure Parliaments, parties and politicians do get to rule again above the establishment (Holy Trinity). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmsally Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Just curious, what exactly would the Mr Bean/Journalist's etc wish for Thailand now? (as in right now)Me (and probably the majority) 'smply' wish Thailand to move forward finally (as in any time now...already) Of course recognising this would run counter to the 'stop the world evolving dammit' vested crowd. Good luck with your obvious agendas (possible opportunities as stringers for 'The Economist' spring to mind- despite the fact they missed a global economic downturn) EDIT: PS, sad to hear a pro-Thaksin journalist can't get a pay rise these days... The whole point of this article is to point out that the present situation is very much part of "stop the world evolving". The raison d'etre for the past approx. 2yrs of events has been to turn the clock back to a period where the bureaucracy et al were at the centre stage and writing the rules as they trundled and lurched along. One must be careful not to take the glossed over appearance of consensus, which is so common here, as progress and advancement. Even a group of orangutans can have a tea party if well trained and practiced enough. But behind the scenes when the cups are put away it can be a very different story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 The pro-status quo coalition that expelled Thaksin from power in September 2006, when the People's Alliance for Democracy came into being, have so far succeeded beyond expectations in its restoration of pre-Thaksin Thailand, contrary to the forces and dynamics that were unleashed during his rule. my highlight above. It's no big deal, but I would expect an academic to get his facts right, or the editor to spot this sort of boo-boo. The PAD were already active in 2005. Well spotted, Ricardo. In September 2006 People Alliance for Democracy STOPPED its protests, after the coup. Sondhi started it all in August/September 2005, PAD was formed several months later and its height was in February. They suspended protests during election period. >>> Two years ago when Giles gave that interview about rural mass awakening it was at least puzzling - "maybe he has a point". Now, however, it is clear that they failed to build themselves into any kind of politically coherent force with any coherent ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otherstuff1957 Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 If I were Thai, I would ruefully shake my head & vote for 'none of the above'. On one hand you have elitists whose ultimate goal seems to be the establishment of a benevolent dictatorship. On the other hand you have an opposition whose leaders are corrupt, violent and dishonest, but who pay lip service to democratic ideals and social reform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravelrash Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 The force of history would suggest that rising expectations and growing political consciousness, once unleashed, cannot be easily subdued and reversed. I don't see any evidence of rising expectations or growing political consciousness among Thitinan's beloved reds. What I see is obstructing rival's election campaign, shouting at dying people in the hospital and threatening political opponents with shit bags, and that's just in a couple of days. They don't have a single, credible reason for their existence. Every report about their rallies mentions their worship of Thaksin. They should move past his sorry ass to become a real democratic force. How can Thitinan talk about democratic movement led by people like Chalerm?!? What kind of growing political consciousness does he rerpesent? I'm afraid recent red activities will render Thitinan's leftist theories bankrupt very very soon. So now even articles from a pro-PAD, pro-Democrat paper like this is no longer right wing enough now? Your violent hatred of Taksin has led to a closed mind with no objective reasoning. But hey, the ends justify the means, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombienation Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 I thought the article simplistic and dishonest, skirting around some painful issues. Nice use of "behoove" though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parryhandy Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 If I were Thai, I would ruefully shake my head & vote for 'none of the above'. On one hand you have elitists whose ultimate goal seems to be the establishment of a benevolent dictatorship. On the other hand you have an opposition whose leaders are corrupt, violent and dishonest, but who pay lip service to democratic ideals and social reform. IMO more important in any society is the rule of law and the fair implementation of the law. Democracy is just a word and is not necessarily the right way of government because it turns into politicians having to promise to give away more and more perks to the voters which in turn means they have to lie as said perks are unsustainable or undeliverable. The only difference between Thaskin and current /post politicians is how he spent heavily on PR and threatened to sue anybody who spoke bad about him. Cant remember which famous person said it but it was words to the effect , that any ruler should be killed after serving one term in office because they will never give up power voluntarily.A bit drastic but the message rings true. Now that the global money supply is drying up , just what do pro Thaskin people think he would be doing now to stay in power if he had never been removed ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briggsy Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 The Guardian (UK) is reporting today that Chulalongkorn professor, Giles Ungphakorn, has fled to the UK prior to his arranged charging at Pathumwan Police Station on lese-majeste charges. He is quoted saying he felt he would not receive a fair trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marquess Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 The Guardian (UK) is reporting today that Chulalongkorn professor, Giles Ungphakorn, has fled to the UK prior to his arranged charging at Pathumwan Police Station on lese-majeste charges. He is quoted saying he felt he would not receive a fair trial. Yes I have just read the article! Doesn't make Thailand look good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangyai Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 A rare glimpse of truth in the otherwise vacuous Bangkok Post! Agreed. Still, there are a lot of posters on TV who think turning the clock back 10 years is a good thing, although most of them were'nt here 10 years ago.?? As for the Democrats ' sufficiency economy ', not sure how borrowing money from Japan fits in with that philosophy . Maybe they should have asked the friends of Newin for their money back first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerontion Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Manifesto from Giles Ungpakorn He's got some balls, that man, and I hope I'm wrong but I don't think there's anyway he's coming back to Thailand again. A shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaihome Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) So the author of article believes that the upcountry political bosses did not exist before Thaksin? All Thaksin did was take an existing system, and using the 1997 Constitution and his huge personal fortune, put together a bought and paid for coalition of existing factions into a phony political party which had no agenda other then get as much money out of the government and to the rural political bosses as possible and keep Thaksin in power. Was that a new Thai Politics? Not hardly. TH Edited February 10, 2009 by thaihome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citizen33 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Careful chaps, the other thread on a similar topical story to the one covered here has been censored! This is rather bizarre given that the Nation which has joined the recent TV joint venture itself belatedly carried that story. Unsurprisingly there is nothing in the news section of a forum that is starting to look very unbalanced. I think this may be my last post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuian Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) The force of history would suggest that rising expectations and growing political consciousness, once unleashed, cannot be easily subdued and reversed. I don't see any evidence of rising expectations or growing political consciousness among Thitinan's beloved reds. What I see is obstructing rival's election campaign, shouting at dying people in the hospital and threatening political opponents with shit bags, and that's just in a couple of days. They don't have a single, credible reason for their existence. Every report about their rallies mentions their worship of Thaksin. They should move past his sorry ass to become a real democratic force. How can Thitinan talk about democratic movement led by people like Chalerm?!? What kind of growing political consciousness does he rerpesent? I'm afraid recent red activities will render Thitinan's leftist theories bankrupt very very soon. Well they have attained an amazing high degree of professionalism in outing themselves as genuine duds! So the author of article believes that the upcountry political bosses did not exist before Thaksin? All Thaksin did was take an existing system, and using the 1997 Constitution and his huge personal fortune, put together a bought and paid for coalition of existing factions into a phony political party which had no agenda other then get as much money out of the government and to the rural political bosses as possible and keep Thaksin in power.Was that a new Thai Politics? Not hardly. TH "New" was the never seen grade of corruption, nepotism, abuse of authority, manipulation of the SET, Judicial System, influencing court decisions, combined with the "white lies" and "honest mistakes"! It never been worse! Edited February 10, 2009 by Samuian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerontion Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Reason for edit: Link Removed as per forum Rules. Lite Beer. I'm confused. Which rule? I looked through those at http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/boardrules.html and couldn't see what my offence was. If you're going to edit my post, you could at least give a somewhat less cryptic explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lite Beer Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Reason for edit: Link Removed as per forum Rules. Lite Beer. I'm confused. Which rule? I looked through those at http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/boardrules.html and couldn't see what my offence was. If you're going to edit my post, you could at least give a somewhat less cryptic explanation. No disrespect of the King of Thailand or The Thai Royal Family! Discussion of topics concerning the King or other current or deceased members of the Thai Royal Family is forbidden. 10) Please do not post links to pages that contain objectionable material Also a Topic regarding this subject has already been deleted. Please do not start it up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubonjoe Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Reason for edit: Link Removed as per forum Rules. Lite Beer. I'm confused. Which rule? I looked through those at http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/boardrules.html and couldn't see what my offence was. If you're going to edit my post, you could at least give a somewhat less cryptic explanation. Article that link leads to contains comments and statements that break the following rule. No disrespect of the King of Thailand or The Thai Royal Family! Discussion of topics concerning the King or other current or deceased members of the Thai Royal Family is forbidden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaihome Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 "New" was the never seen grade of corruption, nepotism, abuse of authority, manipulation of the SET, Judicial System, influencing court decisions, combined with the "white lies" and "honest mistakes"!It never been worse! That is too funny to respond to. I think you need to read a few newspapers from 2002 or so to see how bad things were under Thaksin. Every thing you say was going on, but even worse. That is not counting the war on drugs that killed some 2,000 people, which was done under direct order of Police Cpt Thaksin himself. TH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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