The Unkindest Cut

[egg6447]

snip,snip bobs ur aunty. not a funny statement but with the fool doing the surgery. how lucky he didnt circumcise his lips as that was the gereral area of the opperation. enough to put the wind up me and i'm not a nervouse type person.

[JuniorExPat]

What do you expect for 30 Baht?

Errm . . . at the very the least a doctor who can tell the difference between growths on a mouth and a foreskin on a penis perhaps?!

JxP

[bruceboy]

I am shocked at this story.

[Gravelrash]

Rather odd story as circumcisions aren't performed by your typical general surgeon or GP. There are several training programs starting up to provide the training. Old saying about practice making perfect.

This wouldn't by any chance be a story planted with the media by those foreign based wackos that have been harassing the HIV prevention program that intends to facilitate access and subsidize the cost of the procedure would it?

Then again, anything goes in a Thai clinic.

Hey Buddy (geriatrickid),

I live in the USA...I guess I am a foreign-based wacko. I am a medical doctor and a virologist based in LA. I happen to know one of the people involved in the study you are referring to.

There no credible evidence that men with whole penises have a greater chance of contracting HIV than men who are unwhole. The African study you refer to is extremely flawed and deceptive. Have you read the study and do you know the complete details of the study? I have and I do. I also have some inside information. There are lower HIV RATES in European men (most of whom are intact) than in men from the USA (most of whom are partial). That is fact. Also, men that are intact do not have any higher rate of penile cancer than men who are not intact. That is a fact. Penile cancer rates among all men are very low anyway...below 1%. Compare that to breast cancer rates in women. Should the breast buds of baby girls be removed? Should the foreskins (prepuce) and labia minoras of baby girls be removed so they have a lower cancer rate, HIV rate, and HPV rate? You know those areas contain smegma and remain moist. Are they a breeding ground for all the diseases you seem to think are caused by foreskins. I think not. Although, you would probably say yes. You are an ill-informed person. Why are you obssessed and in support of male genital mutilation? Circumcision removes the most important pleasure areas of the penis.....the frenulum, banded ridges, and the inner mucosa. There are many advatages to having a foreskin. Those that were circed as children will never know because they have no before and after to compare. It is analogous to a person born color-blind not knowing what a color-visioned person experiences. Unfortunately, I was circed at age 18, so I know what I am missing. It was the biggest mistake of my life. I know how circumcision handicaps pleasure,sex, etc. Now, as a doctor, I do my best to dissuade all expecting mothers from having their babies sexually mutilated and thus depriving them of the most pleasureable parts of their genitals and future sex lives.

"Last fall, the first rigorous trial on the subject conducted in South Africa found that circumcised men are 60% less likely to contract HIV. Researchers, who halted the study early because the results were so convincing, suspect that the foreskin contains a concentration of cells that are easily infected by the virus."

This information is inaccurate, especially the part pertaining to the reason why the study was ended early.

The study was done on grown men, these were all men who were intact and clean of the AIDS virus. When the study began 1500 of the men (out of 3000) underwent a Circumcision removing the forskin from the glans. That was the day the study began.

For the first 3 months there was a 0% ratio of the circumsized men contracting the aids virus while a large number of the intact men contracted the virus. What you need to understand is that the first 3 months of the study the men who underwent the circumcision had ZERO sexual activity due to the fact that their penis was healing from the recent trauma.

That makes the study faulty right there, but the reason the study was discontinued was not due to overwhelming evidance. It was due to the fact that after the circumsized men finally got around to being able to have sexual relations, they were actually contracting the virus at a rate much larger than those who remained intact. This worried the people conducting the study because the study was backed by an organization known for promoting circumcision as a way to prevent aids. They did not want their own study to come out and prove them wrong so they discontinued the study and reported the findings as fact instead of letting the study continue for its pre-determined 3 year period and letting the averages equal out and overcome the fact that the intact men were actually contracting it at a slower rate.

They falsified the findings by ending the study early, and by you posting the study as fact helps them in their agenda to push circumcision vs educating the public about the facts.

The facts are that America has one of the larger populations of AIDS infected citizens and we are also the largest country advocating circumcision. How could it be possible if by their findings we should have 60% less chance of contracting the aids virus vs a european who is intact?

The findings are false and if you had done the research required to post it as 'truth' or 'fact' you would have come to that conclusion also instead of blindly allowing yourselves to be manipulated by an organization with an agenda.

You geriatrickid are the wacko and need to mind your own business when it comes to Thais and all Asians (except some moslems, South Koreans, and some Filipinos) not mutilating their children.

Yeah, well all that statistical stuff is all well and good showoff, but you forget the important point, circumcised looks better. That kid will be the envy of all his mates, and chased by lustful women, 30 baht well spent. Wonder how the mouth problem turned out?

[Dakhar]

This doesn't just happen in Thailand.

No kidding Sherlock, but what does happen in Thailand, is that a doctor screws of royally, feels a little bad...

then relocates, and all is forgotten....

No revocation of license no heavy law suits etc etc...

That is pretty unique....

[henryalleman]

IIRC, the US Army required all recruits who were not circumcised to have it done early in training, back in the WWI days. It had to do with hygiene, and the plain and simple lack of adequate sanitation for the poor guys in the trenches. So once such a large percentage of US men were circumcised, the sons all had it done, with the idea that they would "look like Daddy." Not long after that, it was done to make the boys "not look different" in the locker room. So it was firmly entrenched in the US in just one or two generations, really.

It prevents cervical cancer in the sexual partner of a circumcised man, believe it or not. Until the HPV vaccine for women recently became available that was a sound medical reason for circumcision. Now, the reduced transmission to the man of HIV is a sound medical reason for it. They don't stop a study halfway through and offer the treatment being tested to the control group unless the evidence of efficacy is overwhelming... and they did do that. You'd be surprised at how many adult men chose circumcision.

First of all Circumsision is not necessary if you have apersonal hygiene.

Secondly any man who choose voluntary fir an circumsision is an idiot, because he mis most of the pleasure while making love.

[katana]

...Unfortunately, I was circed at age 18, so I know what I am missing. It was the biggest mistake of my life...

Yeah, I know someone like that who was circumcised. Still to this day he bears anger and resentment that it was done to him as a baby without his consent.

[Sabum]

Meh.... as a cut man, I cant tell you how many times a woman has told me its a pleasure to use her mouth on me because of no bad taste and smell...... I am not saying everyone should be cut or that not cut is bad whatever, Im just saying that women say these things to me which leads me to believe it is more pleasurable for them if the man is cut, if that grates on some of your nerves well its just what Ive been told by the recievers of our cut and uncut members. End of my input.

Wait wait... this stuff about missing pleasure... what kind of proof are we talking about here? Sex is awesome, cant imagine it feeling better... sounds like propaganda.

Edited January 23, 2009 by Sabum

[dotcom]

Polecat. I like your avatar. I will try to get one of obama eating a krap pie. Watermelon.

[TAWP]

Yeah, well all that statistical stuff is all well and good showoff, but you forget the important point, circumcised looks better. That kid will be the envy of all his mates, and chased by lustful women, 30 baht well spent. Wonder how the mouth problem turned out?

According to You perhaps, but not the women I associate[d] with in life. Not everyone's taste is the same.

Meh.... as a cut man, I cant tell you how many times a woman has told me its a pleasure to use her mouth on me because of no bad taste and smell...... I am not saying everyone should be cut or that not cut is bad whatever, Im just saying that women say these things to me which leads me to believe it is more pleasurable for them if the man is cut, if that grates on some of your nerves well its just what Ive been told by the recievers of our cut and uncut members. End of my input.

Wait wait... this stuff about missing pleasure... what kind of proof are we talking about here? Sex is awesome, cant imagine it feeling better... sounds like propaganda.

Errr...to silly to respond to...

[Sabum]

Yeah, well all that statistical stuff is all well and good showoff, but you forget the important point, circumcised looks better. That kid will be the envy of all his mates, and chased by lustful women, 30 baht well spent. Wonder how the mouth problem turned out?

According to You perhaps, but not the women I associate[d] with in life. Not everyone's taste is the same.

Meh.... as a cut man, I cant tell you how many times a woman has told me its a pleasure to use her mouth on me because of no bad taste and smell...... I am not saying everyone should be cut or that not cut is bad whatever, Im just saying that women say these things to me which leads me to believe it is more pleasurable for them if the man is cut, if that grates on some of your nerves well its just what Ive been told by the recievers of our cut and uncut members. End of my input.

Wait wait... this stuff about missing pleasure... what kind of proof are we talking about here? Sex is awesome, cant imagine it feeling better... sounds like propaganda.

Errr...to silly to respond to...

Too silly eh? I just stated what has been told to me countless times, sorry if it seems silly but its the full truth. As for the losing pleasure thing, I seriously want to know where that information comes from, how would I know if Im missing out? I cant test it out can I?

[TAWP]

Yeah, well all that statistical stuff is all well and good showoff, but you forget the important point, circumcised looks better. That kid will be the envy of all his mates, and chased by lustful women, 30 baht well spent. Wonder how the mouth problem turned out?

According to You perhaps, but not the women I associate[d] with in life. Not everyone's taste is the same.

Meh.... as a cut man, I cant tell you how many times a woman has told me its a pleasure to use her mouth on me because of no bad taste and smell...... I am not saying everyone should be cut or that not cut is bad whatever, Im just saying that women say these things to me which leads me to believe it is more pleasurable for them if the man is cut, if that grates on some of your nerves well its just what Ive been told by the recievers of our cut and uncut members. End of my input.

Wait wait... this stuff about missing pleasure... what kind of proof are we talking about here? Sex is awesome, cant imagine it feeling better... sounds like propaganda.

Errr...to silly to respond to...

Too silly eh? I just stated what has been told to me countless times, sorry if it seems silly but its the full truth. As for the losing pleasure thing, I seriously want to know where that information comes from, how would I know if Im missing out? I cant test it out can I?

There is atleast one poster in this thread that performed the procedure as an adult and therefor can tell you about the difference.

Read this last page again.

And yes, it IS too silly to respond to. First of all, most adults know how to use soap and water. But using smell as some form of reason as to why one should mutilate a child, heck, as an experienced man I think you probably know that women have their own fragrance that partially can adjusted and partially not. Do you advocate full removal of outer parts on a woman over fear that she might or might not know how to use soap and water?

And secondly, I find that most peoples breath are far worse when it comes to smell and I don't call for decapitation...well, in most cases I don't.

[Scott]

I think this isn't about a forced circumcision, it's about a medical error. It's on the front page of the BKK post today and in their infinite stupidity, a Dr. from the Health Ministry (I think) said "....looking on the bright side, the accidental circumcision would help the boy keep his genitals clean and lower the risk of cancer."

What rubbish from an organization! What an unprofessional response to a potential traumatic event. Meanwhile....I wonder if he has received treatment for the absess. Poor kid, both ends are hurting!

[geriatrickid]

That was one very disturbing post you made MUYTHAI date='2009-01-23 19:37:12' post='2484120'. This is one of the reasons I do not share the same enthusiasm for outpatient mental health care as western health departments.

Hey Buddy (geriatrickid), I am not your buddy.

I live in the USA...I guess I am a foreign-based wacko. I am a medical doctor and a virologist based in LA.

As this site does not verify academic credentials, making a claim to some sort of diploma and position is useless. I can trot out my diplomas too, but in the absence of a verification process, it serves no purpose. However, you made a few errors that strongly indicate that you are neither a qualified physician nor a virologist.

I happen to know one of the people involved in the study you are referring to.

Oh so you know some of the researchers, I will be sure to let them know. They'll be thrilled. Please note though, that there is a visible security presence at all research facilities.

There no credible evidence that men with whole penises have a greater chance of contracting HIV than men who are unwhole. The African study you refer to is extremely flawed and deceptive. Have you read the study and do you know the complete details of the study? I have and I do.

Oki doki. I was not referencing the Ugandan and Kenyan clinical trials. I was referring to the activities in Thailand. The published African studies which you question underwent peer review. They were repeated. Vigorous analysis and review of the methodology and results took place. The approach now has the full support of the WHO. Multiple professional bodies have rewritten their positions on the subject. Do you think it was a great conspiracy launched over some pizza and a few beers and we fooled everyone?

I also have some inside information.

Sure you do. I bet you can get me some cheap land in New Orleans too.

SNIP (No need to bother with someone's edited cut and paste job from an anti circumcision website)

Should the foreskins (prepuce) and labia minoras of baby girls be removed s

You gave yourself away with this slip up. No competent physician or health professional would ever link the removal of a prepuce with the removal of the labia. This is the common ploy of anti circumcision foes that seeks to link the two. The term female circumcision was tossed out by these foes to blur the distinction between the procedures. There is absolutely no connection between the two.

Although, you would probably say yes. You are an ill-informed person.

You think? According to my employers I seem to be sufficiently well informed to hold my job. Considering your obvious lack of academic qualification, as evidenced by your multiple errors, I don't think you are in a position to judge me let alone my professors, colleagues or others.

Why are you obssessed and in support of male genital mutilation?

Obsessed? My original post does not demonstrate anything of that nature. I merely stated that there are some nutters opposed to the circumcision training underway. It seems that it is you that is obsessed enough to regurgitate nonsense and false claims. A rational academic would not engage in cut and paste antics, nor would he launch a tirade on a subject without giving one citation. You have heard of a citation right? It's the process that occurs when you present a "fact" , you then substantiate that fact by citing a peer reviewed published statement. As a self proclaimed qualified virologist, surely you have published and can appreciate that aspect. I don't know about you, but in my graduate school we had to take a course on academic writing and data presentation before we were even allowed to enter the thesis stage.

Unfortunately, I was circed at age 18, so I know what I am missing. It was the biggest mistake of my life. I know how circumcision handicaps pleasure,sex, etc. Now, as a doctor, I do my best to dissuade all expecting mothers from having their babies sexually mutilated and thus depriving them of the most pleasureable parts of their genitals and future sex lives.

And therein we see the motivation for your post. I appreciate that you obviously have some emotional trauma. However, I suggest that you consider another avenue for dealing with the situation. Using an innocuous forum and claiming to be a qualified health professional is pushing it over the edge. As an aside, if you are a virologist, you must be very special, as a medical virologist rarely if ever has contact with pregnant females and with newborns unless there is a patient presenting with a specific illness. I guess they do things differently at your hospital. But hey, it'sthe internet and you are a physician and a virologist. Amazing coincidence.

They falsified the findings by ending the study early, and by you posting the study as fact helps them in their agenda to push circumcision vs educating the public about the facts.

You really crossed the line with that statement. You have accused several dozen well regarded, honourable researchers of a criminal act. That is another unsubstantiated allegation. Can you prove that there was fabrication? No you can't.

There is no agenda except to prevent an incurable and costly disease. There is absolutely no motive for anyone to falsify data. Do you think Dr. Bautista was getting a kickback from scalpel manufacturers? Maybe Dr. Bailey gets a free trip to Disneyland from Mac?

You geriatrickid are the wacko and need to mind your own business when it comes to Thais and all Asians (except some moslems, South Koreans, and some Filipinos) not mutilating their children.

In consideration of your false accusations and unsubstantiated statements, I think you should refrain from calling anyone a wacko. After reading your posts, I anticipate that people will have their own questions about your own state of mind. If you believe that the positions adopted by multiple health organizations are incorrect, you are free to publish a rebuttal in any scientific journal, providing your evidence. Until then, refrain from badmouthing people that have given up the opportunity to make a fortune to instead work on projects that serve the public. For you to accuse Dr. Bailey and the dozens of other scientists involved in multiple studies of falsifying data isn't just offensive, it is sick. You can't back up any of your claims.

I suppose it would be cruel to say that I was harvesting little prepuces with which to make some gloves, as it would only provoke a more entertaining demonstration of disjointed rubbish from you.

However, in respect to my activities, it seems that you know who I am and what I am up to in Thailand and object to that activity. If you have an objection, you may file a complaint with the Ministry of Health, NIH, WHO or the local police department. I am sure they will give it the attention it deserves. (Here's a hint; bring a garbage bag.)

And who says Thai Visa can't be entertaining?

Edited January 24, 2009 by geriatrickid

[Scott]

It's an interesting discussion between the pros and cons of circumcision. I hope it can stay as a civil discussion because some of us lay people can gain some knowledge and information from it.

Meanwhile there's a 12 year old boy running around saying "Mommy, mommy, I can't find my foreskin"!

[geriatrickid]

Well once we make that pair of gloves, we can sell it back to him..........

Scott, this isn't the thread to have a discussion of pros or cons. It's about an alleged medical error.

The procedure's a personal choice for some, and I respect that. The health forums have flogged this subject to death. No one needs to read a rehash of the same arguments or imaginary arguments. The procedure is not being forced on anyone as it seems that this incident was physician error. Perhaps if the attending had been a physician and a virologist, it could have been prevented

I think tomorrow I will claim to be an accomplished accordion player and give a dissertation on the poor polka skills of Thai accordion players..............

[TAWP]

As long as the procedure is a choice by an adult, go for it. Otherwise, no.

[Tyree D.]

This doesn't just happen in Thailand.

Really, where else has a boy had his foreskin removed instead of a mouth problem, ?... i could sort of relate to it if it had been a translation mix up, but this is all thais involved from what i can see,.im off for an op on my back soon, im having signs in thai written and tieing on my pecker saying " not here ,my back you fool ")

happened on Married With Children. Al Bundy went in for a circular incision but instead got a circumcision.

Other than that, Thailand is stranger than fiction.

[Scott]

Geriatrickid: As I said in my previous post, it's not about forced circumcision, it's about a medical error (#43).

I think the remarks from the Acting Medical Council president are really quite unprofessional.

[polecat]

To the uncut guy who said circumcised men miss out on the full pleasure of sex... how would you know?

To the guys who keep writing long posts... please stop it. Please stick to short, mildly distasteful jokes.

Cheers... keep your pecker up.

[redscouse]

Bangkok Post

The Medical Council of Thailand has come to the defence of a male nurse at a clinic who mistakenly circumcised a boy who wanted to have an abscess in his mouth removed.

On Thursday, Rattanaporn Manaschuen, the mother of the 12-year-old boy, complained to the Public Health Ministry after her son was circumcised at a clinic in Samut Prakan's Phra Pradaeng district on Monday. She said the boy actually went there for treatment of an abscess in his mouth.

Acting Medical Council president Somsak Lohlekha said it was a case of miscommunication.

Dr Somsak said the doctor at the clinic correctly diagnosed the boy with a mouth abscess and did nothing wrong. The doctor wrote "excision" on an order assigning the nurse to perform the operation.

But the male nurse confused "excision" with "circumcision" and proceeded to cut off the boy's foreskin.

Dr Somsak said the mistake was unintentional.

He said the doctor was not to blame, although the matter would go before a council panel on medical ethics.

"Usually, a circumcision is a minor operation and a doctor can assign a nurse to do it," Dr Somsak said. He said looking on the bright side, the accidental circumcision would help the boy keep his genitalia clean and lower the risk of cancer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

looking on the dark side, a young boy has been mutilated because some fuc_ktard can not read, what a stupid comment to make from the Acting Medical Council president.

on another note, i have my foreskin and my nob is clean (its called soap and water and are we to believe that circumcised guys have no need to use soap and water, is a circumcised nob self cleaning ), oh and it is free from cancer

lets just hope this clown doesn't confuse 'blood test' with 'amputation' next time

[Sabum]

Glad to hear some of you know how to stay clean, trust me when I say many DO NOT, otherwise why would I hear so many complaints about it? Just for the sake of entertainment? Its probably cultural.... some cultures just dont bathe as much, you know what Im talking about, youve smelled them.

I agree what happened to this child is horrible, but as usual in Thailand there is no accountability and mysteriously no one to blame, its the usual "tragic event" that no one seems to realise is completely avoidable. The "nurse" wasnt even trained well enough to know the difference FULLY without even having to think about it (as it should be) between circumcision and excision, its like they handed the duty to a 3rd week student. Bloody unprofessional morons.

[TAWP]

Glad to hear some of you know how to stay clean, trust me when I say many DO NOT,

Do tell us how many times you have performed fellatio.

[henryalleman]

Meh.... as a cut man, I cant tell you how many times a woman has told me its a pleasure to use her mouth on me because of no bad taste and smell...... I am not saying everyone should be cut or that not cut is bad whatever, Im just saying that women say these things to me which leads me to believe it is more pleasurable for them if the man is cut, if that grates on some of your nerves well its just what Ive been told by the recievers of our cut and uncut members. End of my input.

Wait wait... this stuff about missing pleasure... what kind of proof are we talking about here? Sex is awesome, cant imagine it feeling better... sounds like propaganda.

Just give you some information

http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/loss.html

http://www.noharmm.org/separated.htm

Meh.... as a cut man, I cant tell you how many times a woman has told me its a pleasure to use her mouth on me because of no bad taste and smell......

A normal man take a bath and clean himself before he make love.

[Sabum]

Sounds like a whole lot of denial going on here, surely you accept that although YOU stay clean, others do not? Not to mention spontaneity? Absolutely NO hesitation here lads, when insta sex erupts I dont have to even wonder for a second... hmmmm, am I daisy fresh at the moment? Im just giving you guys a hard time, simply because none of you want to admit that there IS a difference and that women DO talk about this with other women, and sometimes men. No woman DARES comment on this thread hehe. Little bit of a secret here I guess.

[TAWP]

I didn't know that being cut made the penis the one piece of the body that is completely void of smell, germs, dirt or anything.

It's like magic.

[sassienie]

4 years ago I was involved in an accident with a hamster.

It took 2 inchs off, now I`m left with a 9 inch stump.

[Sabum]

I didn't know that being cut made the penis the one piece of the body that is completely void of smell, germs, dirt or anything.

It's like magic.

and YOU wouldnt know.... it really is quite wonderful, its like a magic wand

[Scott]

Some people are apparently very clean and others are..well....a little cheesy!

[yabaaaa]

Bangkok Post

The Medical Council of Thailand has come to the defence of a male nurse at a clinic who mistakenly circumcised a boy who wanted to have an abscess in his mouth removed.

On Thursday, Rattanaporn Manaschuen, the mother of the 12-year-old boy, complained to the Public Health Ministry after her son was circumcised at a clinic in Samut Prakan's Phra Pradaeng district on Monday. She said the boy actually went there for treatment of an abscess in his mouth.

Acting Medical Council president Somsak Lohlekha said it was a case of miscommunication.

Dr Somsak said the doctor at the clinic correctly diagnosed the boy with a mouth abscess and did nothing wrong. The doctor wrote "excision" on an order assigning the nurse to perform the operation.

But the male nurse confused "excision" with "circumcision" and proceeded to cut off the boy's foreskin.

Dr Somsak said the mistake was unintentional.

He said the doctor was not to blame, although the matter would go before a council panel on medical ethics.

"Usually, a circumcision is a minor operation and a doctor can assign a nurse to do it," Dr Somsak said. He said looking on the bright side, the accidental circumcision would help the boy keep his genitalia clean and lower the risk of cancer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

looking on the dark side, a young boy has been mutilated because some fuc_ktard can not read, what a stupid comment to make from the Acting Medical Council president.

on another note, i have my foreskin and my nob is clean (its called soap and water and are we to believe that circumcised guys have no need to use soap and water, is a circumcised nob self cleaning ), oh and it is free from cancer

lets just hope this clown doesn't confuse 'blood test' with 'amputation' next time

Yep happens everywhere even to presidents what Clinton actually said was "Monica sack my cook" good job he didnt lie about afterwards though!!