Financial Crisis

[Chaimai]

UK unemployment rose by a record 281,000 to 2.38 million in the three months to May, the Office for National Statistics has said.

In 1992 Unemployment in UK was 3 million

The record was in the 3 month rise.

Regards.

I don't dispute that - I am just trying to maintain some perspective - unemployment has been forecast to rise to 3.25m. Given that it was at a low of under 1m it was likely to create a record at some point on the way to that forecast. MY point being that the 2.38m (who gives a shi-ite about the monthly rise - that is just a line in the sand) is within expected levels and is therefore not "new news" or terribly exciting.

What WILL be exciting is to see if that 3.25m figure is reached or breached AND what the numbers are like when businesses start to re-employ people.

[midas]

Well, none of those things are revelations to me. My general view is that when markets are being manipulated get on the side of the manipulators.

" Manipulation " to me implies something which maybe occurs occasionally such as insider trading for example.

but nowhere near as insidious as what has happened over the past few months - a mentality that trading conditions and even laws

are changed - anything to make money.( e.g. GM and Chrysler bondholders being ruled against ) I can't see how so much corruption

in the markets can lead to long term economic stability. Its like watching a like a group of junkies desperate for their next fix

and to hel_l with the long term consequences..........

[lannarebirth]

If you want to go along with the manipulators you need to know how it is being done.

You cannot beat those super computers and the army of mathematicians they have.

You need to know what goes in, and how they calculate.

You know that Lana?

Who said anything about beating them?

[lannarebirth]

Well, none of those things are revelations to me. My general view is that when markets are being manipulated get on the side of the manipulators.

" Manipulation " to me implies something which maybe occurs occasionally such as insider trading for example.

but nowhere near as insidious as what has happened over the past few months - a mentality that trading conditions and even laws

are changed - anything to make money.( e.g. GM and Chrysler bondholders being ruled against ) I can't see how so much corruption

in the markets can lead to long term economic stability. Its like watching a like a group of junkies desperate for their next fix

and to hel_l with the long term consequences..........

Manipulation covers a whole lot more area than that. Say margin requirements being raised and lowered. Talks from bully pulpits. Trashing all other havens for cash. Lots of things can be done.

Anyhow, if the short term consequences are dire enough one needn't dwell on the long term for too long.

[flying]

Well, none of those things are revelations to me. My general view is that when markets are being manipulated get on the side of the manipulators.

Its true & at some levels terribly wrong..... But that is not a revelation either.

[jcon]

The word 'manipulation' as it pertains to trading markets covers all manner of sins/activities... hundreds of categories which are of no consequence to your 'average investor.' Events like screwing over bondholders, etc. is IMO not really a 'manipulation' of the market per se, but outright bullying/favoritism/fraud.

Also, to Plarex, 'program trading' doesn't necessarily mean supercomputers and quants in some evil backroom, it could be a trading desk, a few traders, etc...

There are plenty of ways to 'move markets,' some ways very temporarily, some for a longer period of time. Heck, I could move a market in 2000-01, on a light volume day in the summer - just hammering away hitting bids or offers until somebody else thought it was a move..... it happened, I did it - and my boss certainly did in the S&P Futures pit with his partner 'ghosting' the Globex futures... now this was just with a 'game-controller' from a Playstation (re-programmed), I'm sure technology is now more advanced for trading but the idea is the same as it has been since the dawn of trading - somebody can move markets to make a profit at somebody else's loss. 'Manipulation'? I dunno, it's just part of the game - but yes, it can go too far when it's not just you and your pals that are screwing each other over.... (because that's what it usually is, I used to know exactly who I was screwing over/getting screwed by, either by their broker/dealer ID or by their face). Now that it has affected 'The World,' well, it's more difficult to judge and the 'slippery slope' can come into effect re: 'manipulation.' Which is right about where we are now.

But the idea that you have to 'beat' the 'supercomputers' isn't the point. If you trade certain markets for long enough, you get to know the behavior of the market participants. And you trade it. Then once the behavior changes, for whatever reason (new traders, better 'programs', etc.) you get burned once or twice trying to trade the old way, then you adapt to the new way... Now things change at a very fast pace, which makes it much more difficult than the old days, but that doesn't mean the game has 'changed.' It's still, at it's core, the same game it has always been - a game, a farce - the point of which is to make money - that's it. Traders know this, to deny this fact would be to deny the reality of the markets.

[flying]

Now that it has affected 'The World,' well, it's more difficult to judge

Many think the opposite

Edited July 15, 2009 by flying

[cloudhopper]

Anyhow, if the short term consequences are dire enough one needn't dwell on the long term for too long.

[midas]

'Manipulation'? I dunno, it's just part of the game - but yes, it can go too far when it's not just you and your pals that are screwing each other over.... (because that's what it usually is, I used to know exactly who I was screwing over/getting screwed by, either by their broker/dealer ID or by their face). Now that it has affected 'The World,' well, it's more difficult to judge and the 'slippery slope' can come into effect re: 'manipulation.' Which is right about where we are now.

I agree with this. so my next question is why so many continue to participate in this casino that

doesnt seem to have any meaningful standards or rules any longer?

I know the obvious response will be " to make money " -we know that. But if this mentality of " keep the

markets up at all cost " continues, what use would money be if lack

of trust and ' dog eat dog ' mentality is so pervasive in the financial markets that down the track

it degenerates beyond all recognition ? It's already permeating through every level - it has now been revealed by a US judge that because of the

unique nature of how the Czar's were appointed directly by Obama, actually there are no regulatory

responsibilities for these Czar's at all to declare any personal interests they may have in any company even when that company is engaged in

activities that directly falls under that Czar's responsibility-very cosy indeed.

And you may as well say there is no bona fide regulator of the market anymore because with the

very self-serving Federal Reserve in charge of all these activities its like having Dracula in charge of the blood bank.

[AlexLah]

Maybe a bit more of this?

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090715/NA...blow-up-factory

If you do a bit of searching you will find out what the company is really doing (not only closing the factory, they sort of moved it).

And yes Jcon, what to call it, manipulation, screwing buddies, fraud or simply call it: "The Game" Makes it sound less bad doesn't it?

Something similar was happening at the company I worked for and I could just not accept it. And the people that played "The Game" justifying their actions by saying it was all to please the shareholders. Using some very toxic raw materials instead of a bit more expensive but non toxic products knowing the end users health could be negatively affected, very much the same "Game"as all those toxic assets ooops sorry legacy assets.

What happened to this world that we can no longer leave the front door of our house unlocked or our bicycle on the street without lock?

Recently it was said that the UK is one of the most violent countries in EU, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics...-of-Europe.html <deleted> is going on? When I talk with others about such things many times the reply is something like, times have changed. I agree, but ask why?

Edited July 16, 2009 by AlexLah

[midas]

Recently it was said that the UK is one of the most violent countries in EU, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics...-of-Europe.html <deleted> is going on? When I talk with others about such things many times the reply is something like, times have changed. I agree, but ask why?

Crickey its higher on the list than South Africa - and we know how bad the car jacking is in Johannesburg

So what do they do............they cut £366 million over the next three years from the police budgets

despite having to prepare for the 2012 Olympic Games.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/c...icle6597434.ece

[chuenjit]

Crime Statistics > Gun violence > Homicides > % homicides

with firearms (most recent) by country

VIEW DATA: Totals

Definition Source Printable version

Bar Graph Map

Showing latest available data. Rank Countries Amount

# 1 Thailand: 79.5805

# 2 South Africa: 59.2028

# 3 Colombia: 45.2092

# 4 Slovakia: 45

# 5 Guatemala: 42.0706

# 6 Zimbabwe: 39.6026

# 7 United States: 39.5604

# 8 Paraguay: 37.8987

# 9 Macedonia, Republic of: 35.6164

# 10 Uruguay: 35.2941

# 11 Côte d'Ivoire: 33.6982

= 12 Germany: 28.5714

= 12 Barbados: 28.5714

# 14 Portugal: 25.3776

# 15 Slovenia: 25

# 16 Belarus: 24.628

# 17 Mexico: 20.6051

# 18 Lithuania: 18.3223

# 19 Hungary: 17.6707

# 20 Spain: 16.4129

# 21 Australia: 16.3435

# 22 Bulgaria: 15.9494

# 23 New Zealand: 13.4615

# 24 Czech Republic: 13.4432

# 25 Estonia: 12.8049

# 26 Latvia: 11.194

# 27 Chile: 10.3053

# 28 Azerbaijan: 7.377

# 29 Poland: 7.1062

# 30 Moldova: 5.4348

# 31 Ukraine: 3.7682

# 32 Singapore: 2.6316

Weighted average: 25.6

DEFINITION:

SOURCE: Wikipedia: Gun violence

See also

[AlexLah]

Can you please quote from a more reliable source?

Statistics is playing with numbers, it all depends what you include and exclude.

There are plenty sites that break down these numbers.

For example: http://www.statistics.gov.uk

[flying]

Good News for the Bulls?

U.S. Stocks Rise as Roubini Reiterates That Recession Is Ending

uly 16 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. stocks rose for a fourth day, the longest streak in six weeks, as economist Nouriel Roubini said the worst of the financial crisis is over and reiterated that the recession may end this year, while takeover speculation lifted commodity shares.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=az9k8d_f_xn8

Edited July 16, 2009 by flying

[LaoPo]

Good News for the Bulls?

U.S. Stocks Rise as Roubini Reiterates That Recession Is Ending

uly 16 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. stocks rose for a fourth day, the longest streak in six weeks, as economist Nouriel Roubini said the worst of the financial crisis is over and reiterated that the recession may end this year, while takeover speculation lifted commodity shares.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=az9k8d_f_xn8

Nahhh, don't think so; not yet.

Nouriel Roubini says comments taken out of context

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/nouriel-r...-out-of-context

LaoPo

[flying]

Nahhh, don't think so; not yet.

Nouriel Roubini says comments taken out of context

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/nouriel-r...-out-of-context

LaoPo

Yes I just saw that right now too.

I must admit I did think it odd when I saw the first report

[midas]

Nahhh, don't think so; not yet.

Nouriel Roubini says comments taken out of context

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/nouriel-r...-out-of-context

LaoPo

Yes I just saw that right now too.

I must admit I did think it odd when I saw the first report

I pay attention to what Roubini says but ultimately in a country where 70% of GDP is

based on spending.......unitil these trends are reversed I take what he says with a huge pinch of salt.

RealtyTrac: Q2 Foreclosure Activity Highest On Record

Look elsewhere for green shoots... and CNBC's favorite commodity - hope. 1.9 Million foreclosure filings in the first half, 889,829 in the second quarter, with 336,173 in June alone, bringing the second quarter total to the highest number since RealtyTrac has been following these data. And this all is happening while various foreclosure moratoria and other national and state mitigation efforts are still in play. One can just imagine the bottom really falling out of the market once California and others stop pretending they can control this accelerating train wreck.

http://www.tradercurrencies.com/currency-t...hest-on-record/

and this ........

HUD discovered a worrying 9 percent increase in the number of homeless families.

The report also noted that homelessness had spread outside of urban boundaries. “Residents of suburban and rural communities made up about a third of those in need of housing, up from about 24 percent the year before,” reported The Associated Press.

http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/Americ...nd-Present.html

Edited July 17, 2009 by midas

[teletiger]

Here's a Goldman fan.

Notice how the Professor warms up when auditing the Fed comes up.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/max-keise...-sachs-are-scum

Regards.

[midas]

Here's a Goldman fan.

Notice how the Professor warms up when auditing the Fed comes up.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/max-keise...-sachs-are-scum

Regards.

WOW -I loved every second of that eight minutes

I just wish the rest of America would wake up.to what Max is saying

I particularly loved the part where he accuses GS of being financial terrorists

and no different than Bin Laden

By the way does anyone know the up-to-date status of -H.R.1207

Federal Reserve Transparency Act of 2009?

I see it ended up with 270 co-sponsors in Congress

so why hasn't it passed the Senate yet?

[Naam]

what sense does it make to read or listen to those gurus and know-it-all who can only (no doubt justified) bitch but can't present any solution which works in general or might have any impact on us individuals reading/posting in Thaivisa?

is perhaps some masochism involved? or is it the (in vain) cry for help "Mummy, Mummy! look what i found out today. can you imagine what other crimes these <insert appropriate names of bàstards> have committed?"

[midas]

what sense does it make to read or listen to those gurus and know-it-all who can only (no doubt justified) bitch but can't present any solution which works in general or might have any impact on us individuals reading/posting in Thaivisa?

is perhaps some masochism involved? or is it the (in vain) cry for help "Mummy, Mummy! look what i found out today. can you imagine what other crimes these <insert appropriate names of bàstards> have committed?"

Ok so what do you suggest to stop the <insert appropriate names of bàstards> ?

[lannarebirth]

Here's a Goldman fan.

Notice how the Professor warms up when auditing the Fed comes up.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/max-keise...-sachs-are-scum

Regards.

WOW -I loved every second of that eight minutes

I just wish the rest of America would wake up.to what Max is saying

I particularly loved the part where he accuses GS of being financial terrorists

and no different than Bin Laden

By the way does anyone know the up-to-date status of -H.R.1207

Federal Reserve Transparency Act of 2009?

I see it ended up with 270 co-sponsors in Congress

so why hasn't it passed the Senate yet?

I think this was the most relevant comment made about the clip, which I may view tomoorow at my present download speed.

"I think his anger is misdirected. "Goldman Sachs 'co-opted' this that or the other"? Goldman Sachs can only co-opt the government if the politicians are willing to sell their power to the highest bidder. He has this backwards. The government conferred upon Goldman Sachs the power to steal. The only power Goldman Sachs has comes from the government, not the other way around. Goldman also didn't steal anything from from taxpayers - the government is the only one that has that power."

[midas]

"I think his anger is misdirected. "Goldman Sachs 'co-opted' this that or the other"? Goldman Sachs can only co-opt the government if the politicians are willing to sell their power to the highest bidder. He has this backwards. The government conferred upon Goldman Sachs the power to steal. The only power Goldman Sachs has comes from the government, not the other way around. Goldman also didn't steal anything from from taxpayers - the government is the only one that has that power."[/b]

Well lanna personally I don't think there was much that wasn't relevant.........

So by now is it possible you are prepared to concede that Alex Lah wasn't entirely off the planet with his conspiracy warnings ?

There is something strange or immoral ( possibly even sinister) about the Obama administration and they are changing America beyond all recognition

while the Americans sit back and don't seem at bothered probably because as Flying said they are all too busy making a living and the politicians are

using this for their " scheme ".

What about the story involving small business lender CIT Group who are being allowed to fail ?

" small business lobbyists were warning that the lender's demise could ripple through the economy. The

pain could be most acute in the retail sector, where CIT is a big player in "factoring"---the business of giving

credit to apparel makers and their suppliers, and then collecting on the payments due them from retailers "

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflas...0715_942426.htm

This seems crazy because we know that :-

" small business is the engine of U.S. economic growth, responsible for 75 percent of all net new jobs, we are frequently told."

So how can this possibly help to improve the unemployment situation?

. nothing seems to make any sense anymore....

Edited July 18, 2009 by midas

[lannarebirth]

"I think his anger is misdirected. "Goldman Sachs 'co-opted' this that or the other"? Goldman Sachs can only co-opt the government if the politicians are willing to sell their power to the highest bidder. He has this backwards. The government conferred upon Goldman Sachs the power to steal. The only power Goldman Sachs has comes from the government, not the other way around. Goldman also didn't steal anything from from taxpayers - the government is the only one that has that power."[/b]

Well lanna personally I don't think there was much that wasn't relevant.........

So by now is it possible you are prepared to concede that Alex Lah wasn't entirely off the planet with his conspiracy warnings ?

There is something strange or immoral ( possibly even sinister) about the Obama administration and they are changing America beyond all recognition

while the Americans sit back and don't seem at bothered probably because as Flying said they are all too busy making a living and the politicians are

using this for their " scheme ".

What about the story involving small business lender CIT Group who are being allowed to fail ?

" small business lobbyists were warning that the lender's demise could ripple through the economy. The

pain could be most acute in the retail sector, where CIT is a big player in "factoring"---the business of giving

credit to apparel makers and their suppliers, and then collecting on the payments due them from retailers "

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflas...0715_942426.htm

This seems crazy because we know that :-

" small business is the engine of U.S. economic growth, responsible for 75 percent of all net new jobs, we are frequently told."

So how can this possibly help to improve the unemployment situation?

. nothing seems to make any sense anymore....

What's relevant is that it is the abdication by the government, and by extention the citizenry of discharging its responsibilities that has led to this crisis. Blame Goldman Sachs? What for? Do you blame a snake if you let it out of its cage and it bites you? You knew it was a snake, right?

People don't like to fix blame when doing so requires a hard look in the mirror. In the most democratic nation on earth (and other similar nations) it is the peoples willingness to cannibalize themselves for short term gains that has led to this crisis. If banks have profitted unduly in this scheme, it is the fault of regulators. If regulators have failed it is the fault of government. If government has failed it is the fault of the citizenry.

I like part 2 of the video where the guy says that if GS was selling shares in Auschwitz people would buy them if they thought they could profit. I believe he's right.

Edited July 18, 2009 by lannarebirth

[AlexLah]

No worries about CIT, they will get some money from GS. And indeed the Obama admin is not only sinister they are criminals as well and very scary ones.

If you are interested in some dot connecting read this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/12963883/Tri-Lat...y-Antony-Sutton

AIG and the rest of those insolvent corporations had to be left to fail, they are companies that made bad investments/decisions and committed fraud.

The next Enron is around the corner and it will only get worse as apparently immoral behavior is rewarded.

[teletiger]

Haven't you been listening Naam? There is no solution. Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

Only a Prussian (and a few Goths I once knew ) could mistake entertainment for masochism.

Somewhat educating and highly entertaining is your answer. 'And if they (we) ever do get <insert appro....Goldman Sachs....bastards> up in front of the beak, then in-flight entertainment will have reached new heights.

My own solution, looking forward, would be to ditch fractional reserve banking. Go over to 100% reserve banking. A 5-10 year plan for sure. "And banks as they stand now, wouldn't want to play that game. Well there's others out there who aren't afraid to make a modest, honest profit.

If you want to play in the casino.....you're not using my "facking" money. No more "too big to fails". No more black swans. Total transparency for EVERYTHING that includes taxpayers money. Of course, short of digging up the Founding Fathers, in the US and William 1 in England.......highly unlikely.

Still, history shows us time and again, that in times as we may be approaching, the joker usually appears.

Looking amongst the usual suspects, he/she's not there. Still, this saga has 10 years to run yet.

Gosh, all that entertainment to come.....Hope I don't shuffle off before it ends.

Anyway....is sounding like the Establishment apologist really your style Naam? I think not.

Regards.

[midas]

People don't like to fix blame when doing so requires a hard look in the mirror. In the most democratic nation on earth (and other similar nations) it is the peoples willingness to cannibalize themselves for short term gains that has led to this crisis. If banks have profitted unduly in this scheme, it is the fault of regulators. If regulators have failed it is the fault of government. If government has failed it is the fault of the citizenry. ??????

I like part 2 of the video where the guy says that if GS was selling shares in Auschwitz people would buy them if they thought they could profit. I believe he's right.

But the government hasn't failed ?It looks like Obamas administration is achieving its objectives very nicely

but that is not the fault of the citizenry ? They elected him in " good faith " on his promises of change but I don't think

many would have agreed to this kind of spooky agenda.

Its like if I enter into a contract with you but you misrepresent yourself I can at least take you to court to seek restitution

but what can the citizenry do about all this now they realise after only six months they have been well and truly conned.

Sure they can wait to vote them out of office but an awful lot of damage can be done between now and then...

Edited July 18, 2009 by midas

[ace]

What's relevant is that it is the abdication by the government, and by extention the citizenry of discharging its responsibilities that has led to this crisis. Blame Goldman Sachs? What for? Do you blame a snake if you let it out of its cage and it bites you? You knew it was a snake, right?

People don't like to fix blame when doing so requires a hard look in the mirror. In the most democratic nation on earth (and other similar nations) it is the peoples willingness to cannibalize themselves for short term gains that has led to this crisis. If banks have profitted unduly in this scheme, it is the fault of regulators. If regulators have failed it is the fault of government. If government has failed it is the fault of the citizenry.

.........................

Surely it is established that the cause goes back to the effort to socialize housing for political reasons, add in some easy money..............

Then people get greedy. But we do that, like the snake.

[lannarebirth]

What's relevant is that it is the abdication by the government, and by extention the citizenry of discharging its responsibilities that has led to this crisis. Blame Goldman Sachs? What for? Do you blame a snake if you let it out of its cage and it bites you? You knew it was a snake, right?

People don't like to fix blame when doing so requires a hard look in the mirror. In the most democratic nation on earth (and other similar nations) it is the peoples willingness to cannibalize themselves for short term gains that has led to this crisis. If banks have profitted unduly in this scheme, it is the fault of regulators. If regulators have failed it is the fault of government. If government has failed it is the fault of the citizenry.

.........................

Surely it is established that the cause goes back to the effort to socialize housing for political reasons, add in some easy money..............

Then people get greedy. But we do that, like the snake.

It goes back to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Reti...me_Security_Act

and similar schemes, which created this:

which created a distortion of valuations for income flows and a vast misallocation of capital. The most elegant scam in history. "send us 10% of your income every month and check back with us in 30 years", "stay the course" "blah, blah". Deregulation and shoddy oversight not even an issue for "stakeholders" . "Do whatever you please, just make my stocks go up".

Edited July 18, 2009 by lannarebirth

[midas]

Still, this saga has 10 years to run yet.

Gosh, all that entertainment to come.....Hope I don't shuffle off before it ends.

Anyway....is sounding like the Establishment apologist really your style Naam? I think not.

Regards.

Just interested where you got this figure .............I mean that is a long time IMO

and i dont think people will be patient for that long..................

Gerald Celente expects things to seriously start unwinding in US around 2012

Edited July 18, 2009 by midas