I Will Return To Post Of Prime Minister: Thaksin

[justanothercybertosser]

In 2009, it means going against the steadfast beliefs of easily 95% of the population (if not even significantly higher).

This far, far transcends any red shirt versus yellow shirt. This goes to the very core of the Thai psyche...

Giles grossly inappropriate and horrendously insulting words deeply offends all but the aforementioned pitiful handful of Thais.

Up to 2006 you have been right with your numerical assessment of 95% and higher. Now, in 2009, i would be not so sure about this anymore. We obviously have no statistics available to prove either view, and in the foreseeable future there won't be one. There is though a significant rise in discussions under Thais of all sectors on this very sensitive subject, which previously was unthinkable.

Some of the points of the manifesto most Thais would agree with, while some points are indeed shocking.

We can only see the reactions of people (or the lack thereof) towards this manifesto in the future, and assess then. What we clearly see now though is that the stakes of this game are reaching a very troubling stage, almost unprecedented in contemporary Thailand.

I have to disagree though with the poster that alludes parallels to the 30's. In that time these sentiments were restricted to a very small elite in Bureaucracy and Military, and did not trickle down to the common population, one of the main reasons of the incomplete 1932 events and revival of the present reign.

Now the situation might be different, which could mean enormous instability in Thailand.

As foreigners we will have to be more than careful making any statement either way. This is a question that Thai society will have to find a solution by themselves for, whatever that may be. Any position taken by us, and careless comments lacking access to facts, can easily heat up the already tense situation, and could, under circumstances, lead to repercussion against us.

Whatever one may feel here - history has shown that societies tend to look for scapegoats during times of instability, and foreigners are the easiest one, especially in inward looking cultures such as Thailand.

Edited February 11, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[Plus]

You do not speak for the majority of Thais, particularly those under the age of 30. If you know anything about Thais, then you know that what they think and what they say is often vastly different.

No, we do not, but that doesn't mean much. People at that age are naturally rebellious of authorities, they are not representative of the whole society, and are likely to change their minds later in life, when they mature a bit and consider alternatives.

You will always find demographic pockets where there's more support, or less opposition. Overall I don't know anyone who doubts Thai society feelings for monarchy. You, GK, seem to challenge this widely accepted fact.

I saw no preaching of hatred or violence. No call to political unrest, just a request for the respect of others.

Again, you can't talk about respect in a paper that labels everyone's actions as "crawling". The respect for others is simply not there, no matter what Giles calls for - he has no respect for tens of millions of Thais himself, hypocrite that he is.

I recommend that people read the document for themselves and make their own conclusions.

Are you going to take responsibility for the consequences? It's easy to recommend this and that if you don't care what happens next. Unlike you, for the government running the country is not a spectator sport.

[Journalist]

Just because 99.9% of a given national group support a particular political status quo, doesn't signify whether it is empirically right or wrong.

Some number of that magnitude in wartime Germany were indoctrinated into giving their hearts to Adolph thanks to propaganda and banning of alternative points of view.

The fact that the rest of the world was crying out 'he's wrong, he's wrong' didn't penetrate, and even if it had, it would have been dismissed with a shrug by most citizens.

[Samuian]

reading just the first couple of lines of his manifesto, coming from a town (Berlin), in a nation (Germany) severely effected by the "cold war" the product of a rather similiar ideology I can smell the punk!

The enemies of the Thai people and Democracy may have their army, courts and prisons. They may have seized and rigged parliament and established the government through crimes like the blockading of the airports and other undemocratic actions by the PAD. Yet those that love democracy, the Redshirts, have strength in numbers and are waking up to political realities

We ALL have been witnesses how "democratic" the violent mob is, interrupting their opponents, threats, even murder, a lynch job in public!

This says it all to what someone like Giles would be ready for to resort to - nay - not him, he's in safe England already, it would be AGAIN the people, foolish enough to take the agenda of others onto the streets and suffer badly for it!

In seemingly uncertain times, it's just another grab for power - NONE ELSE!

Look at Cuba, the neighbors in the west, in the east, in the north-east.

They way which has been chosen, was the best alternative, for this country and it's citizens.

Censorship, back and forth, "freedom of the media", what freedom?

To be free to use media to stir up a civil war, a storm that once raging, will be very difficult to stop and certainly ONLY with the might of the military and then who will be the "winner"?

Back to position one - not at this stage, if there will be significant changes, they can't be forced, or introduced at will, the cost way too high!

Change has to come about by itself, has to grow, has to via common consent, not with "fire and the sword".... or violent bloodletting of a few lambs who will be 'simple' enough to be dieing for those who need them to bring their agenda about and clear the platform, the very stage they wish to shine on.

History has shown way TOO many times that "good intend" turned the other way and bad turned to worse, but to reverse the process then will prove very, very difficult!

So be it, as is.... trains are runnin' planes are flying, power-water supply, hospitals are open.....thing are pretty normal, give this government some time, time will show and then is still time to get the clappers out once more!

I am afraid of people who have an agenda which has failed several times, not to mention the hidden aspects of it!

Why has nobody asked yet, how much he got for his "Manifesto" which has some grueling similarity to the often denied "Finland agenda" or "plot".... of a self exiled judicial fugitive... any random similarities here by chance?

The "noise" about shutting down offensive websites is ridiculous, as there are loads of non-political, offensive (porn, violence , crime, etc.) websites as well,

Edited February 11, 2009 by Samuian

[hammered]

Giles has no idea, or doesn't care, how his republican agenda can really split the country. He has no idea how he would deal with tens of millions of people who won't even listen to his arguments. What's he going to do? Purge them in the name of freedom?

He is an idiot with no foresight whatsoever.

His manifest is political, not academic one, he uses very strong, offensive language, offensive to millions of Thais, offensive to their deepest and most profound feelings. Provocations like this have no place in Thai society as we know it.

Millions disagree with whatever positions any government has. One need only witness the red shirts vs. the yellow shirts in Thailand to see that. Neither red shirt nor yellow shirt has much interest in listening. The same can be said about any country when there are views that are opposed by a segment of the population. It has played out in the USA, the UK, Russia etc. However, that is no reason to force someone into exile or to crush a dissenting opinion. If one believes in the legitimacy of one's political position, there should not be any fear in having an exchange on the subject with those that disagree. It seems to me that there are a great many insecure people in power that are reacting in fear.

Obviously you do not agree with the professor. Super, but that's your opinion. Unlike those that engage in profiteering or bribery, he is trying to contribute, and yet he is condemned. When you deny the avenue of expression of views, you force people into alternative modes that are often violent. He has not advocated violence and his language reflects the growing frustration of many. The implications of this combined with the ongoing saga of Thaksin is going to come back and bite the elite on their plump posteriors. You cannot keep a lid on people's frustrations.Sooner or later they bubble up in unpleasant ways. This is certainly going to be interesting to watch to see how the academic world reacts. I anticipate that the professor's cause will be taken up by various political and student groups around the world. The situation has been mishandled and plays into Thaksin's hand. The military and its lackeys have raised Giles into martyr status.

Giles certainly isnt seen as a martyr in Thailand. It is possible that within Thai specialist communities outside he may get more sympathy. He chose to go and live in Britain and he is a British citizen. We dont know he was forced out. There are plenty of people still in Thailand with LM charges against them such as Sulak, Jakropob and even Sondhi. These dudes havent decided to run away.

From a marxist perspective his relocation is just as likely to be part of a politcal manouver. After all we have a huge economic recession approaching and marxists are basically economic determinists. Add to this it is probably Giles opportunity by taking this move to raise both his name recognition in Thailand and the profile of his ideals. Factor in time too.

Interesting that a couple of people were speaking about Giles over their breakfast this morning. Neither knew his name and just referred to him as the guy with a Chinese father and British passport who doesnt love the king or Thailand.

Quite how some of his compatriots in Thailand will feel after he abandoned them remains to be seen. Certainly there already seems to be some criticism from some of those who also signed the petition to repeal article 112. Quite how the red shirts move on from here will be interesting too. After he said what he said speaking as a red shirt as he put it, they need to have something to say. It seems by also criticizing Thaksin and PTP Giles has played another politcal game of trying to split the red shirts even further into the Thaksinistas and the overt republicans plus of course all the other split away factions we have been hearing about already. The problem is who is going to be an overt republican when the most outspoken one has already left the country. Again it looks like something from the old days of pseudo marxist revolutionary leaders sitting safely abroad while sacrificing the people back home in the name of their cause.

I truly hope that certain r side red shirts are not looking at trying to create a bunch of "martyrs" by pushing the unacceptable way too far resulting in some form of vigilante action against a small bunch of low level supporters. That however, is certainly in the more manipualtive playbook of some.

Truth is a real people movements come from the people and cant be created by edict or the wishes of some academic or some old stalinist or maoist, and Thailand has its share of them. They need to come from the grassroots unled. They will also be a product of their time. They also may not hold the ideals that academics and activists who tend to be from more privileged backgrounds think they should have. Right now a movement of the people would more likely be to give Giles a kicking than to follow him behind a red flag.

[Plus]

Now the situation might be different, which could mean enormous instability in Thailand.

I'm not sure the situation has changed in the past couple of years. Just because Giles posted something on the Internet it doesn't mean there's more dissent now. It's still not much more than a one man crusade. His personal views haven't evolved in, say, past five years. Maybe he's got more friends since the coup and so feels bold and audacious, but his "manifesto" is really a last ditch attempt at getting noticed, not a political statement as such, just a bit of controversy as otherwise no one listens to him.

He's just trying to manipulate public opinion in his favour.

Disgusting, really.

[CHIEFOFFICER]

What just a month ago everyone was going on about how it was looking up that British born Abhisit was to be PM. Now, everyone is slagging him off - is it soemthing to do with the fact that he doesn't like College girls earning extra income by selling their bodies on the internet?

I don't think we can expect him to be puking out new policies left, right and centre as Obama is, Obama has a h3ck of a lot more money behind him - another post here was stating that he was handed a reserve less than a month's worth of civil servant wages! Not a lot to build on. Thaksin made no end of promises, predictions and policy statements - mostly to fool the rural vote into thinking he was a savior that loved the struggling underclasses. Many promises and predictions turn out as hot air, and many of the policies he did put in '30 baht medical' etc sounded good, but never worked - many of the others helped him and his family and companies, but not many others - and certainly not the working classes and below.

I think we need to give him more time before we make a judgement and give him enough rope - this country really doesn't need more change that's for sure.

[CHIEFOFFICER]

What just a month ago everyone was going on about how it was looking up that British born Abhisit was to be PM. Now, everyone is slagging him off - is it soemthing to do with the fact that he doesn't like College girls earning extra income by selling their bodies on the internet?

I don't think we can expect him to be puking out new policies left, right and centre as Obama is, Obama has a h3ck of a lot more money behind him - another post here was stating that he was handed a reserve less than a month's worth of civil servant wages! Not a lot to build on. Thaksin made no end of promises, predictions and policy statements - mostly to fool the rural vote into thinking he was a savior that loved the struggling underclasses. Many promises and predictions turn out as hot air, and many of the policies he did put in '30 baht medical' etc sounded good, but never worked - many of the others helped him and his family and companies, but not many others - and certainly not the working classes and below.

I think we need to give him more time before we make a judgement and give him enough rope - this country really doesn't need more change that's for sure.

hear,hear, wolf5370,you got it right

[hammered]

The pitiful handful of Thais that agree with him will have absolutely no chance of fulfilling his platform.

Disagree.

It almost happened in the 30's.

Could easily swing that way again in the future.

Nothing pitiful about having a brain and using it to have your own opinion either.

Unfortunately, I can also see a time when it could happen again. That's no reason to look forward to it though, as you seem to be so gleefully doing so. Do you really think that with a weakened "master" the military will simply fade away and allow the people to take control of the country? You need to wake up. Sure, a lot of people will protest, in any colour shirt they want, but a lot of people will then be killed. Something's rotten in the state of Thai politics, but you only need to look to our neighbours in the west to see that things could get a whole lot more so.

A sound recognition of the reality of power in Thailand.

[Samuian]

Giles has no idea, or doesn't care, how his republican agenda can really split the country. He has no idea how he would deal with tens of millions of people who won't even listen to his arguments. What's he going to do? Purge them in the name of freedom?

He is an idiot with no foresight whatsoever.

His manifest is political, not academic one, he uses very strong, offensive language, offensive to millions of Thais, offensive to their deepest and most profound feelings. Provocations like this have no place in Thai society as we know it.

Millions disagree with whatever positions any government has. One need only witness the red shirts vs. the yellow shirts in Thailand to see that. Neither red shirt nor yellow shirt has much interest in listening. The same can be said about any country when there are views that are opposed by a segment of the population. It has played out in the USA, the UK, Russia etc. However, that is no reason to force someone into exile or to crush a dissenting opinion. If one believes in the legitimacy of one's political position, there should not be any fear in having an exchange on the subject with those that disagree. It seems to me that there are a great many insecure people in power that are reacting in fear.

Obviously you do not agree with the professor. Super, but that's your opinion. Unlike those that engage in profiteering or bribery, he is trying to contribute, and yet he is condemned. When you deny the avenue of expression of views, you force people into alternative modes that are often violent. He has not advocated violence and his language reflects the growing frustration of many. The implications of this combined with the ongoing saga of Thaksin is going to come back and bite the elite on their plump posteriors. You cannot keep a lid on people's frustrations.Sooner or later they bubble up in unpleasant ways. This is certainly going to be interesting to watch to see how the academic world reacts. I anticipate that the professor's cause will be taken up by various political and student groups around the world. The situation has been mishandled and plays into Thaksin's hand. The military and its lackeys have raised Giles into martyr status.

Giles certainly isnt seen as a martyr in Thailand. It is possible that within Thai specialist communities outside he may get more sympathy. He chose to go and live in Britain and he is a British citizen. We dont know he was forced out. There are plenty of people still in Thailand with LM charges against them such as Sulak, Jakropob and even Sondhi. These dudes havent decided to run away.

From a marxist perspective his relocation is just as likely to be part of a politcal manouver. After all we have a huge economic recession approaching and marxists are basically economic determinists. Add to this it is probably Giles opportunity by taking this move to raise both his name recognition in Thailand and the profile of his ideals. Factor in time too.

Interesting that a couple of people were speaking about Giles over their breakfast this morning. Neither knew his name and just referred to him as the guy with a Chinese father and British passport who doesnt love the king or Thailand.

Quite how some of his compatriots in Thailand will feel after he abandoned them remains to be seen. Certainly there already seems to be some criticism from some of those who also signed the petition to repeal article 112. Quite how the red shirts move on from here will be interesting too. After he said what he said speaking as a red shirt as he put it, they need to have something to say. It seems by also criticizing Thaksin and PTP Giles has played another politcal game of trying to split the red shirts even further into the Thaksinistas and the overt republicans plus of course all the other split away factions we have been hearing about already. The problem is who is going to be an overt republican when the most outspoken one has already left the country. Again it looks like something from the old days of pseudo marxist revolutionary leaders sitting safely abroad while sacrificing the people back home in the name of their cause.

I truly hope that certain r side red shirts are not looking at trying to create a bunch of "martyrs" by pushing the unacceptable way too far resulting in some form of vigilante action against a small bunch of low level supporters. That however, is certainly in the more manipualtive playbook of some.

Truth is a real people movements come from the people and cant be created by edict or the wishes of some academic or some old stalinist or maoist, and Thailand has its share of them. They need to come from the grassroots unled. They will also be a product of their time. They also may not hold the ideals that academics and activists who tend to be from more privileged backgrounds think they should have. Right now a movement of the people would more likely be to give Giles a kicking than to follow him behind a red flag.

Spot on, you got a couple of very valued points here!

Points, many people tend to simply overlook!

Giles like many others, may have found himself simply entangled in the web of rage, or he ran away from the very divisions he caused....and is using a certain law as his scapegoat, just look at the facts, which moves they have made themselves...!

The genuine reasons why he is back in England could be rather sobering - who knows!?

Edited February 11, 2009 by Samuian

[justanothercybertosser]

We ALL have been witnesses how "democratic" the violent mob is, interrupting their opponents, threats, even murder, a lynch job in public!

.....

I am afraid of people who have an agenda which has failed several times, not to mention the hidden aspects of it!

Why has nobody asked yet, how much he got for his "Manifesto" which has some grueling similarity to the often denied "Finland agenda" or "plot".... of a self exiled judicial fugitive... any random similarities here by chance?

Many of those comments could also be applied to the PAD easily.

The "Finland Declaration" at the time and still is a baseless accusation that has no proof whatsoever other than that a supposed participant of whom we never learned his/her identity supposedly has got cold feet and supposedly confided in Sondhi. In short - a classic conspiracy theory, with a possible agenda by its originators.

There is though far more evidence of the opposite - that Thaksin never intended to go against the institution.

Many observers are of the view that exactly this accusation of that supposed plot and subsequent dragging of the institution into the political arena by the PAD and their associates of the Military and the Democrat Party have only created the rising opposition, and therefore the PAD can be seen as the originator of the ongoing instability.

Additionally, the PAD and its associates so far drew the most benefit from this ongoing crises.

Edited February 11, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[justanothercybertosser]

Now the situation might be different, which could mean enormous instability in Thailand.

I'm not sure the situation has changed in the past couple of years. Just because Giles posted something on the Internet it doesn't mean there's more dissent now. It's still not much more than a one man crusade. His personal views haven't evolved in, say, past five years. Maybe he's got more friends since the coup and so feels bold and audacious, but his "manifesto" is really a last ditch attempt at getting noticed, not a political statement as such, just a bit of controversy as otherwise no one listens to him.

He's just trying to manipulate public opinion in his favour.

Disgusting, really.

You are making a one-sided and very judgmental statement that is based on your emotional reaction and not on rational thought. Exactly statements of this kind, especially by foreigners, are heating up the situation. Even though these sort of statements pretend to be in defense of what you believe Thais are about, in fact they are potentially as damaging as the opposite view.

Such comments are radicalizing the situation, and are not contributing to a peaceful solution and a search for a compromise that is necessary to find a way out of this quagmire.

Edited February 11, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[Plus]

"Finland Declaration" was confided not to Sondhi, afaik, but to a senator and a couple of other people and was published in Naew Na (and Manager).

There was a meeting in Finland, there were academics and TRT honchos attending, they discussed future plans for the country. That much was admitted by various TRT members themselves. I'm sure there was a certain spin put on that when the content of that meeting was published, but where there's smoke...

I don't know if Thaksin personally was in attendance.

[Plus]

Now the situation might be different, which could mean enormous instability in Thailand.

I'm not sure the situation has changed in the past couple of years. Just because Giles posted something on the Internet it doesn't mean there's more dissent now. It's still not much more than a one man crusade. His personal views haven't evolved in, say, past five years. Maybe he's got more friends since the coup and so feels bold and audacious, but his "manifesto" is really a last ditch attempt at getting noticed, not a political statement as such, just a bit of controversy as otherwise no one listens to him.

He's just trying to manipulate public opinion in his favour.

Disgusting, really.

You are making a one-sided and very judgmental statement that is based on your emotional reaction and not on rational thought. Exactly statements of this kind, especially by foreigners, are heating up the situation. Even though these sort of statements pretend to be in defense of what you believe Thais are about, in fact they are potentially as damaging as the opposite view.

Such comments are radicalizing the situation, and are not contributing to a peaceful solution and a search for a compromise that is necessary to find a way out of this quagmire.

Which statement is that? That Giles manipulates public opinion by playing a victim card? I don't see any radicalisation in that.

[justanothercybertosser]

"Finland Declaration" was confided not to Sondhi, afaik, but to a senator and a couple of other people and was published in Naew Na (and Manager).

There was a meeting in Finland, there were academics and TRT honchos attending, they discussed future plans for the country. That much was admitted by various TRT members themselves. I'm sure there was a certain spin put on that when the content of that meeting was published, but where there's smoke...

I don't know if Thaksin personally was in attendance.

Whatever who it was confided to first - it was publicized and promoted as such by Sondhi, and is a classic conspiracy theory. When there is no proof whatsoever, and a meeting is no proof, then publicizing such a strong accusation over the maybe most sensitive issue in Thailand is extremely damaging. One of the first rules in journalism is to check one's facts, and not to disguise hearsay as fact.

When such conspiracies based on flimsy evidence are published, then alarm bells should go off over the more than possible agendas of the originators.

Edited February 11, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[justanothercybertosser]

Which statement is that? That Giles manipulates public opinion by playing a victim card? I don't see any radicalisation in that.

Of course you don't. I would not have expected otherwise.

[hammered]

"Finland Declaration" was confided not to Sondhi, afaik, but to a senator and a couple of other people and was published in Naew Na (and Manager).

There was a meeting in Finland, there were academics and TRT honchos attending, they discussed future plans for the country. That much was admitted by various TRT members themselves. I'm sure there was a certain spin put on that when the content of that meeting was published, but where there's smoke...

I don't know if Thaksin personally was in attendance.

I remember ages ago seeing a list of things linked to the "finland declaration". They basically consisted of:

1. Overt TRT policies (not controversial at all)

2. Some one party dominance stuff (not particularly deniable or controversial)

3. Some stuff on the role of the monarchy (depends how you read it as to level of controversy, but it was open to interpretation).

One of the pro-TRT bloggers at the time analysed it as the aims and policies of the TRT if you took out the monarchy stuff.

Funny nobody really talks about it now. I guess we have the words of Giles and the reported statement of Oak these days. Oh plus what Suthep said is not exactly something people in Thailand havent discussed.

[justanothercybertosser]

Oh plus what Suthep said is not exactly something people in Thailand havent discussed.

There are still people that discuss the validity of Darwin's theories. That doesn't mean that creationists views are valid and based on fact.

[Xangsamhua]

Many observers are of the view that exactly this accusation of that supposed plot and subsequent dragging of the institution into the political arena by the PAD and their associates of the Military and the Democrat Party have only created the rising opposition, and therefore the PAD can be seen as the originator of the ongoing instability.

Additionally, the PAD and its associates so far drew the most benefit from this ongoing crises.

Yep, if only those danged PAD types had kept quiet and let Thaksin and his cronies keep on rolling we'd all be sitting pretty now. Sondhi should have taken T's money like a true patriot and just shut up.

[geriatrickid]

If you feel so strongly about it Geriatrikid --- feel free to print up hundreds of copies and distribute them. May I suggest starting at the police station in Phuket?

Oh, aren't you a clever one. Too bad you have not considered the implications of what you have suggested. Obviously, you would like to see me charged and imprisoned as well. However, it speaks to your support of the use of the police to prevent the discussion of legitimate political subjects. What are you so scared of? Have you even read the document, or are you simply heaping scorn because you find it reassuring and think that by be more "loyal" the coming changes won't affect you?

Countries that are secure in themselves and have a respect for basic freedoms and rights do not repress an academic's proposals. The views are instead discussed and if empty, shown as such. It was people like Giles and his supporters that provided the society in which you could live your lifestyle. Freedom is a valuable right and when you deny it at the most basic of levels it is an attack on the freedoms of all.

No one says the professor's views need be taken as the gospel, but they certainly merit a discussion in public. If you are afraid, then go and hide. I'm not.

The document was emailed to me. I wouldn't be surprised if it has been emailed to others. Websites can be restricted but emails cannot. The more this is repressed, the greater the eagerness will be to read the document. The odd thing about the document is that it isn't that inflammatory. You cannot even prove him wrong, but you will condemn him. What are you afraid of?

[sriracha john]

Because the words he uses are so repugnant, offensive, and shockingly repulsive to the vast majority of the population and stoke such a vehement and deeply emotional response. It's not unlike why pedophile threads are closed on here.

Alluding to a pedophile thread is a cheap shot. You disagree with his words, fine, that's your view but don't even try to drag the fellow into the mud. You do not speak for the majority of Thais, particularly those under the age of 30. If you know anything about Thais, then you know that what they think and what they say is often vastly different.

Rather than relying on your interpretation, I recommend that people read the document for themselves and make their own conclusions. I saw no preaching of hatred or violence. No call to political unrest, just a request for the respect of others. I'd say the treatise reflects a great deal of sentiment often stated on the TV boards. Galileo was condemned as a heretic in his day. So was Martin Luther. Look where their ideas ended up.

You would do well to learn the lessons of SE Asia. When you repress the people, ban ideas and free speech and condemn legitimate questions, you sow the seeds of unrest.

It wasn't a cheap shot. It was a valid, realistic point. His sort of provocation results in the extreme violence as befell the Erawan Shrine destroyer, as a previous example. It stokes the same sort of primal reaction that often gets voiced verbally, instead of physically, in those threads before they're closed. It's from a different sort of revulsion, but the emotive power of the reactions and the crux of their origin are very similar.

You're right that I don't speak for Thais. I don't have to. They do it for themselves and evidence of their thoughts and deeds regarding this issue is to put it mildly.... self-evident. Young, old, rich, poor, urban, rural, professional, unskilled... you name the demographic and the nearly completely total reverence and dedication is uniform.

As for reading the document, I fully agree, that's why I linked it. It might not strike as strongly to all foreigners, but then, I'm not surprised by that, either. I think there are huge groups of people that don't fully appreciate the Thai perspective. I also think, however, that there will be a sizeable group of foreigners who do and will be shocked at the provocative manner in which it is written.

For an even more Thai-oriented reaction, I recommend printing the Thai version (there's a link on the site) and present to Thais to read and see what they have to say about Giles and his platform of removing the object of their passion.

By the way, I don't think most Thais feel your "repress the people" "ban ideas" and "free speech" applies to their feelings about this object, either. They likely don't feel these are "legitimate questions" in the slightest.

Edited February 11, 2009 by sriracha john

[Plus]

Whatever who it was confided to first - it was publicized and promoted as such by Sondhi, and is a classic conspiracy theory. When there is no proof whatsoever, and a meeting is no proof, then publicizing such a strong accusation over the maybe most sensitive issue in Thailand is extremely damaging. One of the first rules in journalism is to check one's facts, and not to disguise hearsay as fact.

When such conspiracies based on flimsy evidence are published, then alarm bells should go off over the more than possible agendas of the originators.

They got the content from a person who had been in attendance.

The most amusing part was that Finland plans was working really well for TRT. I don't even understand the need to question the existence of its origins - it was in full bloom in front of our eyes already.

I also don't see the need to bring it into this thread. What purpose would it serve? It's been discussed to death already.

Even Giles should be continued in "Banned websites", really, as he openly distances himself from Thaksin.

If only mods can find a gentle way to redirect Giles discussion without breaking it off.

[Samuian]

We ALL have been witnesses how "democratic" the violent mob is, interrupting their opponents, threats, even murder, a lynch job in public!

.....

I am afraid of people who have an agenda which has failed several times, not to mention the hidden aspects of it!

Why has nobody asked yet, how much he got for his "Manifesto" which has some grueling similarity to the often denied "Finland agenda" or "plot".... of a self exiled judicial fugitive... any random similarities here by chance?

Many of those comments could also be applied to the PAD easily.

The "Finland Declaration" at the time and still is a baseless accusation that has no proof whatsoever other than that a supposed participant of whom we never learned his/her identity supposedly has got cold feet and supposedly confided in Sondhi. In short - a classic conspiracy theory, with a possible agenda by its originators.

There is though far more evidence of the opposite - that Thaksin never intended to go against the institution.

Many observers are of the view that exactly this accusation of that supposed plot and subsequent dragging of the institution into the political arena by the PAD and their associates of the Military and the Democrat Party have only created the rising opposition, and therefore the PAD can be seen as the originator of the ongoing instability.

Additionally, the PAD and its associates so far drew the most benefit from this ongoing crises.

Regarding the PAD, they have not the general violent appearance as the red mob has, it's is only that opponents of the PAD agenda claim that this is so!

"The Finland" Declaration" may never have been a Declaration as such, the topics of this "Declaration" may never been declared openly, we ALL know why - same reason why "Gil" has fled to the UK... where he can keep advocating his "Thai-Weimar Republic".....in safety!

Yes there is "far more evidence"....... these are quotes from the "Thai Rak Thai" Soap Opera!

Yes it's the PAD "hidden agenda" in secret unity with the military.... SURE!

Come again please.... if you got some facts!

[jdinasia]

I'm sorry did I miss something? Is Giles imprisoned?

What am I afraid of? ... being served bad somtam!

I do see it as a LAW here in Thailand that there are things that you can't say or do. You think that Giles is a hero apparently. I think he's scum. Courage of his convictions? If he had them he'd be here saying what he is saying. Instead he's a Marxist hiding in England.

You say that you are all for unlimited freedom of expression, right? Go for it! Stand up for your convictions!

BTW -- Giles has done NOTHING for MY freedom in Thailand.

(and emails can be tracked and intercepted --- so wrong on that point as well!)

"It isn't that inflammatory" --- I guess you didn't read it!

If you feel so strongly about it Geriatrikid --- feel free to print up hundreds of copies and distribute them. May I suggest starting at the police station in Phuket?

Oh, aren't you a clever one. Too bad you have not considered the implications of what you have suggested. Obviously, you would like to see me charged and imprisoned as well. However, it speaks to your support of the use of the police to prevent the discussion of legitimate political subjects. What are you so scared of? Have you even read the document, or are you simply heaping scorn because you find it reassuring and think that by be more "loyal" the coming changes won't affect you?

Countries that are secure in themselves and have a respect for basic freedoms and rights do not repress an academic's proposals. The views are instead discussed and if empty, shown as such. It was people like Giles and his supporters that provided the society in which you could live your lifestyle. Freedom is a valuable right and when you deny it at the most basic of levels it is an attack on the freedoms of all.

No one says the professor's views need be taken as the gospel, but they certainly merit a discussion in public. If you are afraid, then go and hide. I'm not.

The document was emailed to me. I wouldn't be surprised if it has been emailed to others. Websites can be restricted but emails cannot. The more this is repressed, the greater the eagerness will be to read the document. The odd thing about the document is that it isn't that inflammatory. You cannot even prove him wrong, but you will condemn him. What are you afraid of?

[Samuian]

If you feel so strongly about it Geriatrikid --- feel free to print up hundreds of copies and distribute them. May I suggest starting at the police station in Phuket?

Oh, aren't you a clever one. Too bad you have not considered the implications of what you have suggested. Obviously, you would like to see me charged and imprisoned as well. However, it speaks to your support of the use of the police to prevent the discussion of legitimate political subjects. What are you so scared of? Have you even read the document, or are you simply heaping scorn because you find it reassuring and think that by be more "loyal" the coming changes won't affect you?

Countries that are secure in themselves and have a respect for basic freedoms and rights do not repress an academic's proposals. The views are instead discussed and if empty, shown as such. It was people like Giles and his supporters that provided the society in which you could live your lifestyle. Freedom is a valuable right and when you deny it at the most basic of levels it is an attack on the freedoms of all.

No one says the professor's views need be taken as the gospel, but they certainly merit a discussion in public. If you are afraid, then go and hide. I'm not.

The document was emailed to me. I wouldn't be surprised if it has been emailed to others. Websites can be restricted but emails cannot. The more this is repressed, the greater the eagerness will be to read the document. The odd thing about the document is that it isn't that inflammatory. You cannot even prove him wrong, but you will condemn him. What are you afraid of?

Well, here is the problem you, Harry, Giles and many other,s don't want to except, but there are rules (out of a reason) and one has to play by these rules unless....

"What to be scared of..."?

"Speaking for myself: "I am NOT STUPID enough to challenge this law"!

What could I change and why?

What is so "bad" right now?

Isn't there only people opposing this law, cause they can't have it their way?

"Weimar Republic" anyone or something similar to the "Islamic Republic of Iran", maybe "Lao People's Democratic Republic"?

What is wrong with things as they are right now?

Is there Military presence in Public, do we have to report every day at a military check point?

What is wrong?

That people in Power wont allow people who would like to have it their way, to have it their way?

The one who pushed most for it is on the run... the next one who claims his agenda is merely political - is on the run?

If the ONE claims parallels to Nelson Mandela - why doesn't he go to jail and fights the system from within as Nelson did?

[hammered]

Something that many people forget is that laws are in many ways a reflection of society, and as times and conditions change laws get changed because of overwhelming public opposition. However, in Thailand although there may be discussion on LM laws by some foreigners, some academics and some politicians there is not exactly a huge grassroots swell to change these laws. In fact all evidence is that they enjoy support and are not thought of as too much locally.

I doubt that if someone were to stand around handing out Giles manifesto in a public place they would have to fear arrest as much as what the ordinary peolel might do to them. In fact arrest may come as a welcome respite form what in likelihood could be close to a lynching. This gets missed by those that argue give Giles a platform. OK give Giles a platform and let him face the wrath of the people, and I have no doubt that is what he would face considering what he writes. Arent laws put in place so authorities can deal with what people regard as unacceptable rather than create situations where vigilante action becomes order of the day.

We should also note that no country has unfettered freedom of speech, and that discussion of the wrong issue can land one in jail in may countries that are even held up to be beacons of democracy. Lets not mention holocaust denial in many European countries. Lets not mention blasphemy laws that still exist in certain other western countries. How many countries dont have defamation laws? Every country defines what "hate speech" is off limit. Better not mention how academics infringe freedom of speech on a dialy basis with their plagiarism rules, oh and business with copyright etc which makes speech into a commodity to be owned and traded - not exactly the spirit of freedom of speech at all.

Now you either believe in freedom of speech which means ridding the world of all of the above - yes copyright included - or you believe in restricted speech which means you are into a debate on what is acceptable and what is not, which is actually nothing to do with freedom of speech because restrictions are still acceptable to you. Lets have some honesty on this rather than bandying catch phrases around to support some position or other. Here it seems we are into a debate on what is acceptable and what is not. That is up to the Thai people and when they want a law changed they will make it known and the government will react.

[sriracha john]

The most amusing part was that Finland plans was working really well for TRT. I don't even understand the need to question the existence of its origins - it was in full bloom in front of our eyes already.

I also don't see the need to bring it into this thread. What purpose would it serve? It's been discussed to death already.

Even Giles should be continued in "Banned websites", really, as he openly distances himself from Thaksin.

If only mods can find a gentle way to redirect Giles discussion without breaking it off.

^ fully agree on both Finland and Giles....

for a bit of an update on the thread title's subject's woes....

City dump Thaksin from president's role

Manchester City have dismissed ­Thaksin Shinawatra from his position as the ­honorary Club President after deciding the time was right to take a stance against a man who has been convicted of multi-million-pound corruption and is ­currently on the run from the authorities in ­Thailand after being sentenced to two years in prison.

City's rulers in Abu Dhabi took the decision after high-level talks over the past few weeks to determine what to do about the way the former owner had become an increasing source of embarrassment to his successors at Eastlands.

The new owner, Sheikh Mansour Bin Zayed Al Nahyan, and the Chairman, Khaldoon Al Mubarak, concluded that it would be "inappropriate" to allow Thaksin to continue holding such a prominent position and that the former prime minister of Thailand should become the first high-profile casualty of their reign.

Simon Pearce, the Sheikh's personal envoy, and the other English representatives on City's board were also aware that the Premier League had strong objections about the involvement of a fugitive who was once described by Human Rights Watch as "a human-rights abuser of the worst kind."

Thaksin, who accepted the position when he sold the club to ADUG last ­September, has been on the run, spending time in the Middle East, China and the Bahamas, since his UK visa was cancelled in November. His current whereabouts are a mystery to City but the club's Executive Chairman, Garry Cook, managed to get a message to the 59-year-old, via intermediaries, before the 1-0 defeat of Middlesbrough on Saturday.

Thaksin's name was subsequently removed from the match-day programme and has also been taken off the club's ­website as well as various places inside the stadium.

The decision is understood to have been accepted by Thaksin and has gone down well inside the City boardroom, with one high-ranking official recently saying that it was "disgusting" that a convicted criminal should be allowed an honorary role at the club.

Thaksin, ironically, is still a popular ­figure with many City supporters, who credit him with rescuing the club from financial hardship and setting up the ADUG deal. However, City are also aware of fans who refused to watch the club while Thaksin and his family were in ­control at Eastlands.

Thaksin, who made a £120 million profit by selling City, may now try to sell his remaining 10% stake in the club as tries to build a new life – he is reported to be building a £5.5 million property in China – and fight Thailand's extradition procedures. He has always maintained his innocence, describing his conviction at Thailand's supreme court last October as "politically motivated", and claiming he had to flee the country because it was not safe for him to stay.

- Guardian (UK) / 2009-02-11

[sriracha john]

Thaksin Shinawatra is no longer welcome at Manchester City

City tell disgraced former owner Shinawatra: You're no longer welcome at the Club

Manchester City have finally severed ties with disgraced former owner Thaksin Shinawatra.

And although the former prime minister of Thailand was initially handed the title of Honorary President at the City of Manchester Stadium, it is understood that he has now been stripped of the title.

Thaksin was informed by conference call last week that he was no longer welcome at City. His name has been removed from the matchday programme and from the wall in the boardroom at the club.

City's former owner is essentially a fugitive at the moment after refusing to return to Thailand to answer corruption charges at the end of last year.

He has also been divorced by his wife since he sold City to ease his own financial problems last year.

- Daily Mail (UK) / 2009-02-11

[hammered]

Thaksin Shinawatra is no longer welcome at Manchester City

City tell disgraced former owner Shinawatra: You're no longer welcome at the Club

Manchester City have finally severed ties with disgraced former owner Thaksin Shinawatra.

And although the former prime minister of Thailand was initially handed the title of Honorary President at the City of Manchester Stadium, it is understood that he has now been stripped of the title.

Thaksin was informed by conference call last week that he was no longer welcome at City. His name has been removed from the matchday programme and from the wall in the boardroom at the club.

City's former owner is essentially a fugitive at the moment after refusing to return to Thailand to answer corruption charges at the end of last year.

He has also been divorced by his wife since he sold City to ease his own financial problems last year.

- Daily Mail (UK) / 2009-02-11

Guess he had what wanted anyway.

[geriatrickid]

Question: Have any the people that are condemning the professor taken the time to read the document?

Where in the document is there any incitement to revolt or to engage in violent acts? He specifically calls for an exchange of ideas, for questioning, not arms. I am amazed that on one hand many people will post in TV about the inability of Thais to question, and yet when a Thai does it, there is a kneejerk reaction that the fellow shouldn't be so uppity and should instead appreciate his position as the "house ni...r" . . All he is saying is that in order for things to improve, people must become involved.

Why should he go to prison? How would his being imprisoned serve his cause more effectivel?. Because mandela went to prison? I suggest that you read what Mandela had to say about his imprisonment. It set back his fight for justice by a decade and he wished he had never been sent to prison.

Dismiss the professor all you want, but there have been other "teachers" sent out into the wilderness that have come back to bite the posteriors of those that exiled them. Remember Mao Zedong? Ho Chi Minh?

Not a pretty picture, but they too were dismissed as scum, crackpots. Took them awhile, but they had the last laugh. All because the powers mishandled the situation. You can not supress ideas like this. In order to be effectively contained they must be discussed openly and if without value, shown to be as such.

A perfect storm is brewing. If the anticipated economic wallop arrives, the atmosphere will be ripe for the professor and his ideas. Jobless and underemployed youth will be eager to listen. They always are. Thailand is a nation with a young population. Crushing those that dissent and enforcing conformity encourages rebellion. Thailand doesn't need this now.