Help Me Choose Among 4 Centers For Meditation Retreat

[cloud96]

I really want to do a meditation retreat within the next couple of months in Thailand, and I'm having a heck of a time choosing a place to go! There is just so much information out there, but it's hard to find good, recent information specific to what I want to do.

I think I've narrowed it down to these four:

1) Goenka center (in Pachaburi, I believe, but doesn't matter which one I don't think)

2) Wat Ram Poeng, in Chiang Mai

3) Wat Doi Suthep, in CM

4) Wat Suan Mokkh

Can anyone help?

Above all, I'm looking for a place that is going to help me realize as many benefits of meditation as possible, and instruct me in the most useful forms of meditation (I think I want something in the vipassana style, but I really don't know for sure).

To reach this end, I've thought of some other qualities the wat or retreat center would have (i.e. my wish list).

- Daily instruction, in good, intelligible English, taught by someone with considerable experience

- Can talk with guides about problems, clarification, etc, if necessary

- Focus on meditation, not too too heavy on Buddhism (I don't mind learning about Buddhism also, it's just not my goal). I think I'd feel really weird about doing morning alms routes...

- Quiet environment with clean air and private areas, hopefully no dogs, and walls aren't too thin. Hopefully not too many tourists where I'll be meditating.

- No cost, or very low cost (I plan to donate, but just am untrusting of places that charge more than 2000 baht or so for 10 days.

- Not a cult

- 10 days, although am considering 10-30 days as well

- Great reputation

- Clean

- Somewhat comfortable sleeping area? I have some minor/moderate back issues, so I'm not too keen on a rock for a pillow.

Are there any other major qualities to consider? Are there any other places with good reputations that meet these criteria as good or better than above?

1) Goenka center: I've heard of many people getting great results from this program. The instruction is in English, but by video. Definitely focus on meditation, seems quiet, no cost, 10 days. Some people here have called it a cult though, but as many people say it is not. I've also read this Goenka guy is a former businessman, and the fact there are so many of these centers around the world (like a chain McDonalds or something), puts me off a bit. Also, will the guides there really understand my issues in English? I'm a hair concerned about lack of adequate instruction as well. I know it's intense, and that doesn't really put me off.

2) Ram Poeng. Also has a good reputation it seems. But seems a bit heavy on the Buddhism influence. Just seems a little funny that I have to bring 11 lotus flowers, etc, and circle around a Chedi 3 times and do all this chanting. Does that actually have any benefit? Also the focus seems to be on the 26 day retreat. Is the 10 day retreat program a bit neglected? Have heard there are lots of dogs at night. Definitely not a cult, and no cost. Sems to have good English, although can't confirm. I know nothing about the teacher.

3) Wat Doi Suthep. Seems popular... the website and information don't seem any diferent from Ram Poeng, but everyone seems to say it's not as good as the others. Why?

4) Suan Mokkh: Seems to have pretty high standards, I really like that there is a yoga/exercise component as well. I like that it has a walking and sitting meditation, but does that make it a less powerful experience than Goenke, which is just sitting? It seems to have the right amount of emphasis on buddhism, just enough to be educational, without detracting away from the meditation instruction component.

[fabianfred]

Doi Suthep is very touristy ...never knew they did meditation there....

Wat rampoeng is very good for meditation...but no Dhamma instruction for foreigners

You will not have to worry about alms round...only monks and novices do that...

Goenkha is very intensive....maybe better for those with some experience..

IMHO

[Brucenkhamen]

If this is your first time and considering your medical history I think taking it gently is the way to go.

I recommend Wat Suan Mokh for this reason. It meets all your requirements as far as I know, though it's been a long time since I was last there.

There is also Wat Kow Tahm, though it is considerably more expensive.

[cloud96]

Yes I think Doi Suthep and Ram Poeng are out for sure now. Between Goenke and Suan Mokkh, and am leaning toward Suan Mokkh. The only thing is I've heard a lot more good about Goenke than Suan Mokkh. Anybody go to Suan Mokkh and leaving with a feeling that they wasted their time and accomplished nothing? Or anyone with the opposite experience?

[fabianfred]

Wherever you go the same rule applies....... you get out only what you put in..... what you achieve is directly related to how much effort you make...

eat little, talk little, sleep little, practice much

[Brucenkhamen]

Yes I think Doi Suthep and Ram Poeng are out for sure now. Between Goenke and Suan Mokkh, and am leaning toward Suan Mokkh. The only thing is I've heard a lot more good about Goenke than Suan Mokkh. Anybody go to Suan Mokkh and leaving with a feeling that they wasted their time and accomplished nothing? Or anyone with the opposite experience?

I know experieiced meditators find it a bit light, with 30 minute sitting and walking sessions, but that's what makes it good place to start.

[sabaijai]

Wat Ram Poeng is more intensive than Goenka. Good reports from both.

Doi Suthep is similar to Ram Poeng. The meditation centre is separate from the main wat area. Another monastery with the same meditation system in Wat Phra That Chom Thong, in Chom Thong, SW of Chiang Mai.

Suanmok is good for the beginner; I've never heard anyone say they felt they had wasted their time there. Of the 4 you listed, this would be your best option IMO. Bring mosquito repellent.

[ff978472]

May not be an exact answer to your question but this is what I want to share as an alternative.

I am not sure whether you've heard of Luang Por Pramote from Suan Santidham in Cholburi.

He is Luang Pu Dul's student and the second generation student of Luang Pu Mun, the headmaster of current vipassna practice in Thailand.

Luang Por Pramote is one of the most popular monk among white collars in Thailand today.

His student ranges from 10 year old boy to Phd in nuclear physic.

He focus in Citta Vippasana; no theory, only practice in your daily life and once a while you go to see him to submit your "homework"; he will point out whether your current state is a correct way or not.

I am not sure whether there is any english facility to help you there (never been there myself), but it's worht a try.

I am sure there are a lot of his students who can speak english there to help you.

If you happen to understand thai a bit, try listening to his talking at:

http://www.wimutti.net/pramote/

and the map to Suan Santidham is at:

http://www.wimutti.net/pramote/map.php

May the path be with you!

[khaowong1]

Wat Suan Mokkh. They have 2 foreign monks there to help you with any questions and it's very quite and peaceful. Great place for beginners or even some one with a lot of experience.

[VitalGirl]

I really want to do a meditation retreat within the next couple of months in Thailand, and I'm having a heck of a time choosing a place to go! There is just so much information out there, but it's hard to find good, recent information specific to what I want to do.

I think I've narrowed it down to these four:

1) Goenka center (in Pachaburi, I believe, but doesn't matter which one I don't think)

2) Wat Ram Poeng, in Chiang Mai

3) Wat Doi Suthep, in CM

4) Wat Suan Mokkh

Can anyone help?

Above all, I'm looking for a place that is going to help me realize as many benefits of meditation as possible, and instruct me in the most useful forms of meditation (I think I want something in the vipassana style, but I really don't know for sure).

To reach this end, I've thought of some other qualities the wat or retreat center would have (i.e. my wish list).

- Daily instruction, in good, intelligible English, taught by someone with considerable experience

- Can talk with guides about problems, clarification, etc, if necessary

- Focus on meditation, not too too heavy on Buddhism (I don't mind learning about Buddhism also, it's just not my goal). I think I'd feel really weird about doing morning alms routes...

- Quiet environment with clean air and private areas, hopefully no dogs, and walls aren't too thin. Hopefully not too many tourists where I'll be meditating.

- No cost, or very low cost (I plan to donate, but just am untrusting of places that charge more than 2000 baht or so for 10 days.

- Not a cult

- 10 days, although am considering 10-30 days as well

- Great reputation

- Clean

- Somewhat comfortable sleeping area? I have some minor/moderate back issues, so I'm not too keen on a rock for a pillow.

Are there any other major qualities to consider? Are there any other places with good reputations that meet these criteria as good or better than above?

1) Goenka center: I've heard of many people getting great results from this program. The instruction is in English, but by video. Definitely focus on meditation, seems quiet, no cost, 10 days. Some people here have called it a cult though, but as many people say it is not. I've also read this Goenka guy is a former businessman, and the fact there are so many of these centers around the world (like a chain McDonalds or something), puts me off a bit. Also, will the guides there really understand my issues in English? I'm a hair concerned about lack of adequate instruction as well. I know it's intense, and that doesn't really put me off.

2) Ram Poeng. Also has a good reputation it seems. But seems a bit heavy on the Buddhism influence. Just seems a little funny that I have to bring 11 lotus flowers, etc, and circle around a Chedi 3 times and do all this chanting. Does that actually have any benefit? Also the focus seems to be on the 26 day retreat. Is the 10 day retreat program a bit neglected? Have heard there are lots of dogs at night. Definitely not a cult, and no cost. Sems to have good English, although can't confirm. I know nothing about the teacher.

3) Wat Doi Suthep. Seems popular... the website and information don't seem any diferent from Ram Poeng, but everyone seems to say it's not as good as the others. Why?

4) Suan Mokkh: Seems to have pretty high standards, I really like that there is a yoga/exercise component as well. I like that it has a walking and sitting meditation, but does that make it a less powerful experience than Goenke, which is just sitting? It seems to have the right amount of emphasis on buddhism, just enough to be educational, without detracting away from the meditation instruction component.

Reading your evaluation of the four choices, it seems like you're leaning towards Suan Mokh and I would agree that's probably the better of the four. Doi Suthep is a tourist trap and also heavy on the Thai Buddhist traditions, which don't always have anything much to do with meditation or enlightenment... I have recomended some travellers to the Forest Temple close to Mae Hong Son, and had rave reviews back from them.... you'll have to Google it (from memory it's like 60km out of town) but it is listed on some tourist maps etc so shouldn't be too hard. At then end of the day, you may get benefit from trying ALL of the places (over years, of course) and then developing your own, personal style.... Good luck...

[markwhite]

4) Suan Mokkh: Seems to have pretty high standards

I go here regularly, and though I've only had experience of one other retreat (at Doi Suthep, which I cannot recommend), I do think that anyone with a real interest in finding out more about meditation and practical Buddhism would not be disappointed by attending a retreat at Suan Mokkh.

Sure, many people do drop out. But the place has a wide reputation and people (after retreats) often say that they only became because another traveller or a Thai local recommended them to go. So more than a few have no idea what to expect and don't take to the schedule well. Usually about 30% of people leave prematurely, mostly around day 3, but I have known of people leaving as late as day 9.

If I'm allowed to put a link on here (sorry if not mods: please remove it), one of my websites gives a little more information about Suan Mokhh. It's here: Friends of Suan Mokkh

[cloud96]

4) Suan Mokkh: Seems to have pretty high standards

I go here regularly, and though I've only had experience of one other retreat (at Doi Suthep, which I cannot recommend), I do think that anyone with a real interest in finding out more about meditation and practical Buddhism would not be disappointed by attending a retreat at Suan Mokkh.

Sure, many people do drop out. But the place has a wide reputation and people (after retreats) often say that they only became because another traveller or a Thai local recommended them to go. So more than a few have no idea what to expect and don't take to the schedule well. Usually about 30% of people leave prematurely, mostly around day 3, but I have known of people leaving as late as day 9.

If I'm allowed to put a link on here (sorry if not mods: please remove it), one of my websites gives a little more information about Suan Mokhh. It's here: Friends of Suan Mokkh

Well, thanks all, you've convinced me. I'm planning to go to a 10 day retreat at Suan Mokkh very soon. I happen to be unemployed at the moment (1st time in 11 years), so I am thinking what I will do is, if Suan Mokkh doesn't offer enough in the way of 'mental purification' or 'development' as it were, I will try the Goenka center 10 day retreat a few weeks after the end of Suan Mokkh, if I am feeling up for it. I know this may be a bit of a push, but the way I see it, I *may* be back to a full time job in the near future with 2 measly weeks of vacation per year and won't be able to the Goenka retreat. So in a way, if I'm going to do it at all, I think I HAVE to do it now. Plus, in the long term, I think to do them closer together would help me to develop my concentration ability more than if I did the two years apart. Any thoughts?

[Brucenkhamen]

Well, thanks all, you've convinced me. I'm planning to go to a 10 day retreat at Suan Mokkh very soon. I happen to be unemployed at the moment (1st time in 11 years), so I am thinking what I will do is, if Suan Mokkh doesn't offer enough in the way of 'mental purification' or 'development' as it were, I will try the Goenka center 10 day retreat a few weeks after the end of Suan Mokkh, if I am feeling up for it. I know this may be a bit of a push, but the way I see it, I *may* be back to a full time job in the near future with 2 measly weeks of vacation per year and won't be able to the Goenka retreat. So in a way, if I'm going to do it at all, I think I HAVE to do it now. Plus, in the long term, I think to do them closer together would help me to develop my concentration ability more than if I did the two years apart. Any thoughts?

Back to back retreats are certainly good for the experienced meditator, whether it will work for you remains to be seen but you've got to do it when you have the time so go for it.

I'd look at booking for Wat Kow Tahm for your second retreat if the timing of the schedule suits as it's not far from Suan Mokh, and the way they run their bookings if you change your mind and don't show it doesn't matter.

[sabaijai]

Another link direct to the International Dhamma Hermitage at Wat Suan Mokkh:

http://www.suanmokkh-idh.org/

[markwhite]

if Suan Mokkh doesn't offer enough in the way of 'mental purification' or 'development' as it were, I will try the Goenka center 10 day retreat a few weeks after the end of Suan Mokkh, if I am feeling up for it.

It's very much down to what you do. The instructions on the retreat will tell you what to do, but they can't make you do it.

I know this may be a bit of a push, but the way I see it, I *may* be back to a full time job in the near future with 2 measly weeks of vacation per year and won't be able to the Goenka retreat. So in a way, if I'm going to do it at all, I think I HAVE to do it now.

That's one way to do it. You could just go and see what the experience is like and then decide. But it is up to you.

Plus, in the long term, I think to do them closer together would help me to develop my concentration ability more than if I did the two years apart. Any thoughts?

In the long term, it would help to have a regular meditation practice off retreat. Sitting for a short time each day and trying to be mindful as much as possible in your daily duties is likely to have more effect on your concentration than a retreat once in a while. You may get a significant improvement in concentration from spending 20 days in retreats over a few weeks, but is only the first step. Then again, everything is only every just one step.

[orchis]

I did watsuanmokh twice, the first time with very good results. some people might find it a waste of time but it's meant to meditate, look inwards and it's set up to encourage/facilitate just that. about 1/3 of the people will leave, maybe they left for those reasons.

My sister did Goenka in northern cali just last week and she was fine with it. The instructions came from a tape recorder though. Goenka also doesnt have any allowed form of exercise which can be tough on your bones. Suanmokh has moring yoga. And afternoon hot chocolate.

[shiatsuman]

I really want to do a meditation retreat within the next couple of months in Thailand, and I'm having a heck of a time choosing a place to go! There is just so much information out there, but it's hard to find good, recent information specific to what I want to do.

I think I've narrowed it down to these four:

1) Goenka center (in Pachaburi, I believe, but doesn't matter which one I don't think)

2) Wat Ram Poeng, in Chiang Mai

3) Wat Doi Suthep, in CM

4) Wat Suan Mokkh

Can anyone help?

Above all, I'm looking for a place that is going to help me realize as many benefits of meditation as possible, and instruct me in the most useful forms of meditation (I think I want something in the vipassana style, but I really don't know for sure).

To reach this end, I've thought of some other qualities the wat or retreat center would have (i.e. my wish list).

- Daily instruction, in good, intelligible English, taught by someone with considerable experience

- Can talk with guides about problems, clarification, etc, if necessary

- Focus on meditation, not too too heavy on Buddhism (I don't mind learning about Buddhism also, it's just not my goal). I think I'd feel really weird about doing morning alms routes...

- Quiet environment with clean air and private areas, hopefully no dogs, and walls aren't too thin. Hopefully not too many tourists where I'll be meditating.

- No cost, or very low cost (I plan to donate, but just am untrusting of places that charge more than 2000 baht or so for 10 days.

- Not a cult

- 10 days, although am considering 10-30 days as well

- Great reputation

- Clean

- Somewhat comfortable sleeping area? I have some minor/moderate back issues, so I'm not too keen on a rock for a pillow.

Are there any other major qualities to consider? Are there any other places with good reputations that meet these criteria as good or better than above?

1) Goenka center: I've heard of many people getting great results from this program. The instruction is in English, but by video. Definitely focus on meditation, seems quiet, no cost, 10 days. Some people here have called it a cult though, but as many people say it is not. I've also read this Goenka guy is a former businessman, and the fact there are so many of these centers around the world (like a chain McDonalds or something), puts me off a bit. Also, will the guides there really understand my issues in English? I'm a hair concerned about lack of adequate instruction as well. I know it's intense, and that doesn't really put me off.

2) Ram Poeng. Also has a good reputation it seems. But seems a bit heavy on the Buddhism influence. Just seems a little funny that I have to bring 11 lotus flowers, etc, and circle around a Chedi 3 times and do all this chanting. Does that actually have any benefit? Also the focus seems to be on the 26 day retreat. Is the 10 day retreat program a bit neglected? Have heard there are lots of dogs at night. Definitely not a cult, and no cost. Sems to have good English, although can't confirm. I know nothing about the teacher.

3) Wat Doi Suthep. Seems popular... the website and information don't seem any diferent from Ram Poeng, but everyone seems to say it's not as good as the others. Why?

4) Suan Mokkh: Seems to have pretty high standards, I really like that there is a yoga/exercise component as well. I like that it has a walking and sitting meditation, but does that make it a less powerful experience than Goenke, which is just sitting? It seems to have the right amount of emphasis on buddhism, just enough to be educational, without detracting away from the meditation instruction component.

i did the 10 days at Suan Mokh last January, they charge 1'500 and the retreat runs from the 1st to the morning of the 11th eaeach month , you need to register the day befoe (from early to lunch time) you need to move in and then the retreat begins in the evening. You sleep on a straw mat with one blanket, as its so hot most people have it under them a woden pillow that i found really good , you could get an an extra blanket if you have a back problem. The trick is to find a still and reasonably comfortable position . I found holding a meditating position for more than an hour more difficult.

It is a really worthwhile experience the first 3 days are the most difficult then it comes increasingly easy

[Scott98y]

Hello i see a number of people dont think much of the meditation retreat at Wat Doi Suthep. I was just curious as to why. I am supposed to be going there in April for there 3 week retreat. Is the envernment or teachings there that bad, that its going to be a waste of time for me to go there. This will be my first reteat ever so not entirly sure what to expect.

[sabaijai]

Hello i see a number of people dont think much of the meditation retreat at Wat Doi Suthep. I was just curious as to why. I am supposed to be going there in April for there 3 week retreat. Is the envernment or teachings there that bad, that its going to be a waste of time for me to go there. This will be my first reteat ever so not entirly sure what to expect.

I'm guessing that some people pre-judge the Wat Phra Thai Doi Suthep program because that temple is a heavy tourist attraction. In fact the program there uses the same teaching system as at Wat Ram Poeng and Wat Phra That Chom Thong, the teachings of Phra Ajahn Thong. I have visited the centre a couple of times and it's separate from the main temple compound so seems to me to be well protected from wandering tourists. Until you hear something convincingly negative from someone who has actually experienced the program itself (which I have not), I would stick to your original plan. One distinct advantage is that that peak is high enough to be significantly cooler than the plains below.

[ballbreaker]

You might want to check below link for possible options.

http://www.dhamma.org/en/bycountry/ap/th.shtml

[markwhite]

Hello i see a number of people dont think much of the meditation retreat at Wat Doi Suthep. I was just curious as to why.

I was there for 21 days nearly 3 years ago, so what I say might be very out of date, and it's all completely subjective. So, in no particular order:

Very atmospheric - views over Chiang Mai, bonging of the bells most of the day, exceptionally pretty in the early hours of the morning, wonderful chanting by the monks after evening.

Cold and damp - pretty mist is cold on the top of mountains, there is one hot shower which I allowed myself 15 minutes a day as my only source of heat, I didn't help myself by wearing my preferred retreat clothes of light cotton shirt and walking barefoot, if you get colds it's a good place to catch one.

Meditation style - they teach Sadayaw's approach, but a variant I cannot find any other reference too which involved building a level of samadhi, then progressively moving this awareness into 20-odd points around the body. Eg: first day of this do one point on the right side and one point on the left, next day do two points on each side, etc. Noting was also to be done sub-vocally. I struggled with the idea, being more practiced with anapanasati with breath as the object and not sub-vocalising about sensations. This might have been the way the monk chose to teach, or might be Wat Doi Suthep's method. It was the first time the monk had ever taught at a retreat when I went too. I didn;t find the instructions clear and found it difficult to get answers to questions.

Food - no complaints at all and I had some very tasty meals - oh, I couldn't eat the johk one morning as it was made with coconut milk, but that was more about how I was feeling at the time. No one seemed to know about the food reflection - sometimes it was led my the English nun there, sometimes by the nun who ran the kitchen, and sometimes no one was there.

A high(ish) level of ritual and tradition - the 8 precepts were formally requested and taken and renewed every 7 days, all Buddha days were observed, all special days were observed, but it was okay to opt out and just meditate.

Casual approach - there was no schedule beyond wake-up time (which varied as the retreat went on), meal times and sleeping times (which varied as the retreat went on) so it was mostly free meditation time. There were casual visitors - tourists would wonder through and a elderly local Thai lady would sit in the meditation hall and talk under her breath for hours, or go to sleep and snore. There were people short staying for a day or even a half-day. People seemed to be less concerned with maintaining silence. A couple of people spent the night together when I was there.

Temple dogs slept under the dorms and do what dogs do all night. Lots of cats too. Sometimes they found warm laps of meditators to be very comfortable.

Overall, the end result was fantastic, and the last 3 days of the retreat were a very special experience. But I can't imagine that I'll find myself going back there.

[mrducky]

I would like to recommend the Goenka retreat, particularly in Phitsanulok.

Prior to attending, I had the same reservations as everyone else about it being a cult, and conducting a retreat while listening to a taped recording. Plenty of my Thai friends and managers had recommended it, so I eventually decided to give it a go.

These things made me change my mind:

a.) They arrange for the bus ride all the way to the retreat, so you do not have to worry about finding the wat or center.

b.) They have absolutely delicious vegan (or was it vegetarian) food. Way better than wat kow tahm.

c.) The place itself was beautiful, up in the hills, but very cold (this was in December).

d.) The beds and bathroom were way better than the straw mat and hut that I stayed at in Wat Kow Tahm. They had proper beds and blankets and the bathrooms were decent...

e.) Yes, there's recordings, and yes, it can seem a little cultish at times(you will know what I mean if you attend a retreat), but most of the teachings were good, and surprisingly, could answer some of the questions I already had. If the questions were not answered, you can still talk to the teachers.

f.) You can pay for items to be laundered!! No more stressing about whether your clothes will dry on time!

Some people may scoff at items b, d and f, but I can tell you from experience (I meditated at Wat kow tahm previously) it can make all the difference in the quality of your meditation when you are not worried about these basic things and can focus purely on meditation.

I came out of that retreat feeling like a new man, and I can understand why Goenka retreatants are considered cultists,... its the same as Mac/Apple users... they love to spread the word because how great they are (btw I am both)....

All the best and hope you have a good experience, regardless of which temple or center you decide to attend.

[Chocolate1]

Hi there,

have you spent your retreat in the meantime? If yes, where have you been, how was it?

I'm looking for a place and have actually come up with the Goengka center and Suan Mokh. I understand the Goengka center doesn't run courses this year.

In case you've ben, would be great to hear about your experience.

Thanks,

M

I really want to do a meditation retreat within the next couple of months in Thailand, and I'm having a heck of a time choosing a place to go! There is just so much information out there, but it's hard to find good, recent information specific to what I want to do.

I think I've narrowed it down to these four:

1) Goenka center (in Pachaburi, I believe, but doesn't matter which one I don't think)

2) Wat Ram Poeng, in Chiang Mai

3) Wat Doi Suthep, in CM

4) Wat Suan Mokkh

Can anyone help?

Above all, I'm looking for a place that is going to help me realize as many benefits of meditation as possible, and instruct me in the most useful forms of meditation (I think I want something in the vipassana style, but I really don't know for sure).

To reach this end, I've thought of some other qualities the wat or retreat center would have (i.e. my wish list).

- Daily instruction, in good, intelligible English, taught by someone with considerable experience

- Can talk with guides about problems, clarification, etc, if necessary

- Focus on meditation, not too too heavy on Buddhism (I don't mind learning about Buddhism also, it's just not my goal). I think I'd feel really weird about doing morning alms routes...

- Quiet environment with clean air and private areas, hopefully no dogs, and walls aren't too thin. Hopefully not too many tourists where I'll be meditating.

- No cost, or very low cost (I plan to donate, but just am untrusting of places that charge more than 2000 baht or so for 10 days.

- Not a cult

- 10 days, although am considering 10-30 days as well

- Great reputation

- Clean

- Somewhat comfortable sleeping area? I have some minor/moderate back issues, so I'm not too keen on a rock for a pillow.

Are there any other major qualities to consider? Are there any other places with good reputations that meet these criteria as good or better than above?

1) Goenka center: I've heard of many people getting great results from this program. The instruction is in English, but by video. Definitely focus on meditation, seems quiet, no cost, 10 days. Some people here have called it a cult though, but as many people say it is not. I've also read this Goenka guy is a former businessman, and the fact there are so many of these centers around the world (like a chain McDonalds or something), puts me off a bit. Also, will the guides there really understand my issues in English? I'm a hair concerned about lack of adequate instruction as well. I know it's intense, and that doesn't really put me off.

2) Ram Poeng. Also has a good reputation it seems. But seems a bit heavy on the Buddhism influence. Just seems a little funny that I have to bring 11 lotus flowers, etc, and circle around a Chedi 3 times and do all this chanting. Does that actually have any benefit? Also the focus seems to be on the 26 day retreat. Is the 10 day retreat program a bit neglected? Have heard there are lots of dogs at night. Definitely not a cult, and no cost. Sems to have good English, although can't confirm. I know nothing about the teacher.

3) Wat Doi Suthep. Seems popular... the website and information don't seem any diferent from Ram Poeng, but everyone seems to say it's not as good as the others. Why?

4) Suan Mokkh: Seems to have pretty high standards, I really like that there is a yoga/exercise component as well. I like that it has a walking and sitting meditation, but does that make it a less powerful experience than Goenke, which is just sitting? It seems to have the right amount of emphasis on buddhism, just enough to be educational, without detracting away from the meditation instruction component.

[ucantbeserious]

i am kinda out of the loop in recent years,

but i found it interesting that some people say that the Goenka thing is a cult.

when i started doing courses in Aus in the late 1970's , there were certainly a number of very keen meditators,

courses were organised one at a time by these folks, inviting a teacher from the U Ba Khin tradition,

finding money for the teacher's airfare, hiring a camp, getting volunteers,

quite a lot of work by dedicated people.

we had John Coleman, the lady known as "Saya Ma" (lit: "teacher lady", whose real name i forget), Goenka and another american man whose name i also forget, come to give courses.

all these teachers were taught by U Ba Khin,

John Coleman spoke of Saya Ma being there to take care of his needs when he was meditating,

(his book is worth reading).

there was no established centre in aus until later, the first was built in the Blue Mountains outside Sydney,

before that, there were "Dhamma Houses", just a rented house where courses could be given,

by this time some meditators were progressing well and were appointed Assistant Teachers by Goenka,

so courses were then more readily available.

About this time, when Saya Ma and her husband left Burma, there was kind of a "split" between Goenka and Saya Ma,

over, i think, a fairly minor aspect of the giving of Vipassana.

the Goenka teaching did grow quite quickly as we now see,

i have always found the Goenka tradition teachers to be excellent.

some of my friends from those days are now Teachers and Assistant Teachers in the Goenka centres.

i remember them as very good people back then.

in the 70's they had to fly into Rangoon for 7 days, leave and come back for 3 more days to finish the course,

talk about keen!

these courses were conducted by Goenka, and others as well i think, at U Ba Khin's International Meditation Centre.

around that time, both Goenka and Saya Ma chose to leave Burma knowing they might never be allowed to return.

the Dhamma tradition from U Ba Khin comes from the respected monk Ledi Sayadaw (died 1923), whose book "The Manuals of Buddhism" is excellent.

the Mahasi Sayadaw centre in Rangoon was also very popular back then,

this was a different "style" of Vipassana which is now taught by Sayadaw U Pandita and others,

it uses walking meditation and a different type of Samaddhi.

my experience has never been anything like a "cult",

perhaps overly keen meditators can give that impression,

this is documented and often happens in the early days of being a meditator.

anyhow, there's a bit of history in case its of interest.

just a note:

it is extremely important to have a good teacher,

you are opening your mind and heart and the contents can be confusing and painful.

a good teacher will guide you safely through the experience,

they actually do this without you knowing about it.

Vipassana without a good teacher can actually be potentially dangerous to your mental health.

[rockyysdt]

I was at Wat Doi Suthep for 21 days nearly 3 years ago, so what I say might be very out of date, and it's all completely subjective. Overall, the end result was fantastic, and the last 3 days of the retreat were a very special experience. But I can't imagine that I'll find myself going back there.

Hi Mark.

I enjoyed your description of Wat Doi Suthep & was hoping you could describe retreat life & your experiences at Suan Mokkh?

[orchis]

You might want to check below link for possible options.

http://www.dhamma.org/en/bycountry/ap/th.shtml

I checked this link; for the four centres (Goenka) the meditation courses seem to have been cancelled May- end of this year.

Quid?

[nick123]

Am an old student of the Goenka school. First retreat in Yangoon a decade ago. One of the best experiences in my life. Hard work it is. I like the simplicity. Just sitting. Just breathing. It is not a cult at all, although some long time practitioners are sometimes very very serious about the whole thing. But absolutely not all. Guess it is good to get now and then a dose through books, video, audio of self depreciating and humorous teachers like the Dalai Lama, Pema Chodron etc. But as far as meditation goes, serious meditation, Goenka is in my humble opinion an excellent choice.

Really wanted to do a course in Thailand soon. And thought that because there are now four centres that would be easy. Not so.

Huge surprise tonight that they are all closed until the end of the year. Checked other countries, all normal there. Wondering what is going on in Thailand? It is very strange indeed. Wonder if some radical other group I won't name is trying to close them down?

I live not to far from Wat Rampoung but the flower thing and other rituals really put me off. Wat Suan Mokh could be a solution, but don't fancy sitting with half motivated backpackers (maybe I am too judgemental...)

Would love to find a forest wat anywhere in the country with a decent and open minded English speaking teacher. Otherwise on the plane to Burma for a Goenka course, or wait until I am back in Europe?

I would really like to know what is going on with the Goenka centres in Thailand. If someone knows, I'd appreciate the information.

[rockyysdt]

Wat Suan Mokh could be a solution, but don't fancy sitting with half motivated backpackers (maybe I am too judgemental...)

Don't they leave by the third day?

[orchis]

Wat Suan Mokh could be a solution, but don't fancy sitting with half motivated backpackers (maybe I am too judgemental...)

Don't they leave by the third day?

Sometimes they see it as a low cost segment on their grand tour and hang on,

their non-participation and side activities can be disturbing,

last August quite a few were sent on their way days 5-7.

I felt the volunteers might have been a bit more pro-active in that.

[dhart001]

Am an old student of the Goenka school. First retreat in Yangoon a decade ago. One of the best experiences in my life. Hard work it is. I like the simplicity. Just sitting. Just breathing. It is not a cult at all, although some long time practitioners are sometimes very very serious about the whole thing. But absolutely not all. Guess it is good to get now and then a dose through books, video, audio of self depreciating and humorous teachers like the Dalai Lama, Pema Chodron etc. But as far as meditation goes, serious meditation, Goenka is in my humble opinion an excellent choice.

Really wanted to do a course in Thailand soon. And thought that because there are now four centres that would be easy. Not so.

Huge surprise tonight that they are all closed until the end of the year. Checked other countries, all normal there. Wondering what is going on in Thailand? It is very strange indeed. Wonder if some radical other group I won't name is trying to close them down?

I live not to far from Wat Rampoung but the flower thing and other rituals really put me off. Wat Suan Mokh could be a solution, but don't fancy sitting with half motivated backpackers (maybe I am too judgemental...)

Would love to find a forest wat anywhere in the country with a decent and open minded English speaking teacher. Otherwise on the plane to Burma for a Goenka course, or wait until I am back in Europe?

I would really like to know what is going on with the Goenka centres in Thailand. If someone knows, I'd appreciate the information.

Any news on the closures? All 4 centers... perhaps one of the Thai ATs passed away or something?

Thanks!

Dave