Help..is There A Thai Word For.....

[Lix]

What is the Thai word that would describe 'sexism' , someone who was 'sexist', a man who was chauvinistic?

Was thrying to explain the meaning to a Thai and they just could not grasp it.....

Help?

[5tash]

From Lexitron;

Sexism; การแบ่งแยกเพศ gaan bàeng yâek pêt

Chauvinism; การเชื่อว่าประเทศหรือเชื้อชาติของตนสำคัญที่สุด gaan chêua wâa bprà-têt rĕu chéua châat kŏng dton săm-kan têe sòot

[tgeezer]

What is the Thai word that would describe 'sexism' , someone who was 'sexist', a man who was chauvinistic?

Was thrying to explain the meaning to a Thai and they just could not grasp it.....

Help?

They should get ความมีอคตีทางเพศ kwam me a ka de tang pate ( pate rymes with hate )

Edited February 13, 2009 by tgeezer

[Lix]

thank you

[mangkorn]

From Lexitron;

Sexism; การแบ่งแยกเพศ gaan bàeng yâek pêt

Chauvinism; การเชื่อว่าประเทศหรือเชื้อชาติของตนสำคัญที่สุด gaan chêua wâa bprà-têt rĕu chéua châat kŏng dton săm-kan têe sòot

Somehow, I doubt the average person would ever use those words. (One also wonders if the OP, or very many other people, could easily rifle off การเชื่อว่าประเทศหรือเชื้อชาติของตนสำคัญที่สุด during a casual conversation.)

Why not express the idea in a clearer way, e.g., "He doesn't respect women." เขาไม่ให้เกียรติผู้หญิง / เขาดูถูกผู้หญิง

[mangkorn]

They should get ความมีอคตีทางเพศ kwam me a ka de tang pate ( pate rymes with hate )

???

[Jay_Jay]

They should get ความมีอคตีทางเพศ kwam me a ka de tang pate ( pate rymes with hate )

???

I might second your ???'s ... I guess เพศ rhymes with 'hate' if you say it with a Tinglish accent.

If you were in a normal conversation wanting to explain this, in relation to men being sexist against women, you might just say

ดูถูกผู้หญิง - to look down on women - I think it would feel more natural / be more readily understood.

[Rikker]

Alternately, เหยียดหยามผู้หญิง - 'have contempt for women', 'discriminate against owmen'. You could say บริษัทนี้เหยียดหยามผู้หญิงโดยให้เงินเดือนน้อยกว่าผู้ชาย "This company discriminates against women by paying them lower salaries than men."

The actual word coined by the Royal Institute for "sexism" is การกีดกันทางเพศ -- but even that doesn't really translate well straight across. If you said ผู้หญิงในบริษัทถูกกีดกัีนทางเพศ, it translates to 'the women in the company were subjected to sexual discrimination." It's also just not a commonly known phrase.

[tgeezer]

They should get ความมีอคตีทางเพศ kwam me a ka de tang pate ( pate rymes with hate )

???

Another brilliantly erudite comment.

[tgeezer]

They should get ความมีอคตีทางเพศ kwam me a ka de tang pate ( pate rymes with hate )

???

I might second your ???'s ... I guess เพศ rhymes with 'hate' if you say it with a Tinglish accent.

If you were in a normal conversation wanting to explain this, in relation to men being sexist against women, you might just say

ดูถูกผู้หญิง - to look down on women - I think it would feel more natural / be more readily understood.

It is better that than 'pet', I find that people have no trouble if you accentuate the เอ but if you make an attempt not to say an 'open A' it can be confused with แพศ how is it usually written on a plain keyboard?

อคตี is actually quite a decent go at it, it means ความลำเอียง , it means not sitting on the fence, the direction in which you face, though I haven't quite worked, out maybe it is decided by context. I don't sit on the fence either so I like it.

[yoot]

Sexism - การกดขี่ทางเพศ, การกีดกันทางเพศ

Chauvinism - คลั่งชาติ

someone who was 'sexist - คนที่ชอบกดขี่ทางเพศ, คนที่ชอบกีดกันทางเพศ

a man who was chauvinistic - ผู้ชายคนที่เป็นพวกคลั่งชาติ

[meadish_sweetball]

The OP is probably looking for the definition of 'male chauvinism' which means the same thing as chauvinism, but replacing 'nation' with 'men'.

Oxford river books has this definition for 'male chauvinism':

ผู้ชายที่หลงเพศและมีอคติกับผู้หญิง

'chauvinistic' is defined as

เกี่ยวกับความคลั่งชาติหรือคลั่งเพศ

[yoot]

The OP is probably looking for the definition of 'male chauvinism' which means the same thing as chauvinism, but replacing 'nation' with 'men'.

Oxford river books has this definition for 'male chauvinism':

ผู้ชายที่หลงเพศและมีอคติกับผู้หญิง

'chauvinistic' is defined as

เกี่ยวกับความคลั่งชาติหรือคลั่งเพศ

Ops. Sorry. Thanks for pointing that out.

Then it should be "someone who was 'sexist', a man who was chauvinistic" - ผู้ชายที่ชอบกดขี่ทางเพศ.

[Rikker]

For a chauvinistic man, though, it's not just any sex, though -- it's understood to mean the female sex. Wouldn't ผู้ชายที่ชอบกดขี่ผู้หญิง be more specific?

And speaking of the actual actions of a chauvinistic male -- is กดขี่ really the right meaning? To me, male chauvinism is more about a particular attitude towards women. You can be a male chauvinist without any explicit action against women. Whereas กดขี่ seems more about actions.

In conversational usage, at least, I think เหยียดหยาม or ดูถูก better captures the meaning of (male) chauvinism as understood by English speakers. It's about one's mindset/attitude/worldview more than actions. I'm curious to hear what others think about this. Yoot?

Edited February 14, 2009 by Rikker

[yoot]

For a chauvinistic man, though, it's not just any sex, though -- it's understood to mean the female sex. Wouldn't ผู้ชายที่ชอบกดขี่ผู้หญิง be more specific?

And speaking of the actual actions of a chauvinistic male -- is กดขี่ really the right meaning? To me, male chauvinism is more about a particular attitude towards women. You can be a male chauvinist without any explicit action against women. Whereas กดขี่ seems more about actions.

In conversational usage, at least, I think เหยียดหยาม or ดูถูก better captures the meaning of (male) chauvinism as understood by English speakers. It's about one's mindset/attitude/worldview more than actions. I'm curious to hear what others think about this. Yoot?

ผู้ชายที่ชอบกดขี่ผู้หญิง is correct too but it sounds too specific. It's like we are talking about a man who always oppress women.

เหยียดหยาม or ดูถูก is used when it's about direct actions from someone to someone. It means you have to say or do something which attack someone directly to be able to use these terms. For example, if you say every girls is stupid that means you are ดูถูกเหยียดหยามผู้หญิงทุกคน. But it doesn't show that you are sexism.

กดขี่ doesn't need to be actions. Just your attitude can be considered as กดขี่ if it doesn't sound right. for example, you said girl must change her surname after getting married. This reflects your sexism (สะท้อนให้เห็นแนวคิดว่าเป็นพวกกดขี่ทางเพศ).

[mangkorn]

Thanks for those explanations, Khun Yoot. What is your opinion about the phrase: เขาไม่ให้เกียรติผู้หญิง ? I have heard that many times, from average people (i.e., not ones of your education level). Also, is ให้เกียรติ a good usage in the general sense of common respect - not the kind of respect that you're "obliged to" give to someone of money, power, status, etc. - but respect for another human being? Thanks.

[Virin]

Khun Yoot

Excellent explanations as always, thanks.

[tgeezer]

ผู้ชายที่ชอบกดขี่ผู้หญิง is correct too but it sounds too specific. It's like we are talking about a man who always oppress women.

เหยียดหยาม or ดูถูก is used when it's about direct actions from someone to someone. It means you have to say or do something which attack someone directly to be able to use these terms. For example, if you say every girls is stupid that means you are ดูถูกเหยียดหยามผู้หญิงทุกคน. But it doesn't show that you are sexism.

กดขี่ doesn't need to be actions. Just your attitude can be considered as กดขี่ if it doesn't sound right. for example, you said girl must change her surname after getting married. This reflects your sexism (สะท้อนให้เห็นแนวคิดว่าเป็นพวกกดขี่ทางเพศ).

There are probably as many opinions on what sexist means, I am glad we are sticking to that as opposed to chauvenistic, as there are on this forum, after all it is what it means to you. The example given above of the name change, means 'sexist' to me whereas 'oppress' does not; oppess implies the power to effect an outcome. If I and many others see the phrase กดขี่ there is no way we are going to think it applies to sexist, which just shows how difficult it is to get a sense of a word. Incidentally the fact that there is no word in Thai probably means that there are lots of ways of saying it and just like English, it has to be said in context. It is interesting none the less that a single word always produces lots of discussion, probably because it is so moot. We have to take Kun Yoot's word for it, but if oppress is the main verb then I would say that it does not fit every situation and maybe not the poster who was presumably speaking to men and felt free to say it. But then maybe oppress does not have the same meaning to Kun Yoot as it does to me.

edit. It occurs to me that the word may have been 'sexism' which would of course change things a bit and be closer to oppress.

Edited February 15, 2009 by tgeezer

[tgeezer]

They should get ความมีอคตีทางเพศ kwam me a ka de tang pate ( pate rymes with hate )

???

I might second your ???'s ... I guess เพศ rhymes with 'hate' if you say it with a Tinglish accent.

If you were in a normal conversation wanting to explain this, in relation to men being sexist against women, you might just say

ดูถูกผู้หญิง - to look down on women - I think it would feel more natural / be more readily understood.

I am not going to let this drop I have obviously made a mistake and although prepared to make gormless comments neither of you are prepared to help me get it right. The least you can do is give me a word with which it does ryme. My accent is considered to be 'received pronunciation' which used to be required on the BBC but without the twang of the 1950's if it helps you to find a word. I once met a newyorker who told me that หาด rymed with 'hot'

[yoot]

Thanks for those explanations, Khun Yoot. What is your opinion about the phrase: เขาไม่ให้เกียรติผู้หญิง ? I have heard that many times, from average people (i.e., not ones of your education level). Also, is ให้เกียรติ a good usage in the general sense of common respect - not the kind of respect that you're "obliged to" give to someone of money, power, status, etc. - but respect for another human being? Thanks.

Khun Mangkorn,

ให้เกียรติ is always used in the general sense of common respect. I never heard it's used in the kind of respect that you're 'obliged to' give to someone of money, power, status, etc.

Can you give me examples which use 'ให้เกียรติ' in that meaning? Thanks.

[yoot]

There are probably as many opinions on what sexist means, I am glad we are sticking to that as opposed to chauvenistic, as there are on this forum, after all it is what it means to you. The example given above of the name change, means 'sexist' to me whereas 'oppress' does not; oppess implies the power to effect an outcome. If I and many others see the phrase กดขี่ there is no way we are going to think it applies to sexist, which just shows how difficult it is to get a sense of a word. Incidentally the fact that there is no word in Thai probably means that there are lots of ways of saying it and just like English, it has to be said in context. It is interesting none the less that a single word always produces lots of discussion, probably because it is so moot. We have to take Kun Yoot's word for it, but if oppress is the main verb then I would say that it does not fit every situation and maybe not the poster who was presumably speaking to men and felt free to say it. But then maybe oppress does not have the same meaning to Kun Yoot as it does to me.

edit. It occurs to me that the word may have been 'sexism' which would of course change things a bit and be closer to oppress.

ผู้ชายที่ชอบกดขี่ผู้หญิง is a man who has always made women suffer from his unfair and cruel treatment. Does that have the same meaning as "oppress" in your opinion?

When we say กดขี่ทางเพศ, it doesn't need to be only women who are discriminated. It can be gays or lesbian too. Or even female chauvinisms discriminate men. (As Khun Meadish cited the definition of it as คลั่งเพศ. It can be both sexes).

กดขี่ทางเพศ or การกดขี่ทางเพศ is always used as a noun phrase while the word 'กดขี่' in 'ผู้ชายที่ชอบกดขี่ผู้หญิง' is a verb. That's why the meaning and the usage of both phrases are slightly different.

[DavidHouston]

คุณยุธท์ครับ

How about: รังเกียจ; เดียดฉันท์; รังเกียจ as alternatives to กดขี่? Or, are these words, when practiced by a male against a female called "misogyny"?

Edited February 15, 2009 by DavidHouston

[yoot]

คุณยุธท์ครับ

How about: รังเกียจ; เดียดฉันท์; รังเกียจ as alternatives to ? Or, are these words, when practiced by a male against a female called "misogyny"?

In Thai, we can say โรครังเกียจผู้หญิง or โรคเบื่อผู้หญิง for 'misogony'.

Mostly, รังเกียจเดียดฉันท์ are used together which has stronger meaning or more emphatic than just รังเกียจ, or รังเกียจรังงอน.

When Thais say รังเกียจ, it often means "disgust".

น่ารังเกียจ - disgusting.

[tgeezer]

ผู้ชายที่ชอบกดขี่ผู้หญิง is a man who has always made women suffer from his unfair and cruel treatment. Does that have the same meaning as "oppress" in your opinion?

Indeed it does, but that is not sexist. It may be the application of sexism, if it against the other gender. Sexist is merely an adjective which describes attitude. I imagine that you could be breaking the law with sexism but not by being a sexist; well not yet anyway.

I am only saying that we can get by in another language, and thankfully in day to day interaction it doesn't really matter if we understand one another or not. Most people cannot discuss seriously in another language, a non English speaker has the advantage of the ubiquity of English so you are far more likely to understand English than a non-native speaker is likely to understand Thai. กดขี่ for instance, if I look that up, I get the definition that it is about power; I may be sexist but I have no power. It is another approach to say; it does not matter if you are sexist, having no power you would not be described as such in the Thai culture.

However I do find it all quite interesting; I treat as a sort of giant riddle.

[mangkorn]

Thanks for those explanations, Khun Yoot. What is your opinion about the phrase: เขาไม่ให้เกียรติผู้หญิง ? I have heard that many times, from average people (i.e., not ones of your education level). Also, is ให้เกียรติ a good usage in the general sense of common respect - not the kind of respect that you're "obliged to" give to someone of money, power, status, etc. - but respect for another human being? Thanks.

Khun Mangkorn,

ให้เกียรติ is always used in the general sense of common respect. I never heard it's used in the kind of respect that you're 'obliged to' give to someone of money, power, status, etc.

Can you give me examples which use 'ให้เกียรติ' in that meaning? Thanks.

Thanks, Khun Yoot, that answers my question. Perhaps I wasn't clear: I didn't mean to suggest ให้เกียรติ was used to refer to bigshots, parents, monks, etc. I was just trying to confirm if it is the best general term to use. (I don't want anyone to respect me for my race, age, passport, educational degrees, or any such thing, but I do expect the same respect that I show to others, regardless of their social or economic status. So ให้เกียรติ it is. Cheers.

Edit: Back to my original question: what about using เขาไม่ให้เกียรติผู้หญิง in this sense of sexist, or lacking respect for women? I press only because although there are many possible words and expressions, such as you have suggested, they aren't really the kind of thing that I tend to hear from the average working-class person of basic education. Thanks.

Edited February 15, 2009 by mangkorn

[meadish_sweetball]

They should get ความมีอคตีทางเพศ kwam me a ka de tang pate ( pate rymes with hate )

???

I might second your ???'s ... I guess เพศ rhymes with 'hate' if you say it with a Tinglish accent.

If you were in a normal conversation wanting to explain this, in relation to men being sexist against women, you might just say

ดูถูกผู้หญิง - to look down on women - I think it would feel more natural / be more readily understood.

I am not going to let this drop I have obviously made a mistake and although prepared to make gormless comments neither of you are prepared to help me get it right. The least you can do is give me a word with which it does ryme. My accent is considered to be 'received pronunciation' which used to be required on the BBC but without the twang of the 1950's if it helps you to find a word. I once met a newyorker who told me that หาด rymed with 'hot'

If your accent is RP English, then the exact vowel sound of Thai เพศ is not available, since RP English (like many other variations of English) has a slight vowel glide (starting from the same sound as in Thai, but then moving gradually towards a more closed sound) on 'hate'. It is less pronounced in RP though, than in for example Australian English or Cockney.

The vowel sound in เพศ - เอ is a more constant vowel sound. The closest referent I can give you is probably the Scottish English pronunciation of the vowel in 'hate' - although there is a problem in that description, because even within Scotland, pronunciations vary, and some Scottish dialects differ. More specifically, if you are familiar with English as spoken by Orkney Island Scots, then that would be a good referent.

Also, Jamaican English tends to have a constant vowel sound in 'hate' so that might work as a reasonable description too.

All that being said, perhaps the easiest way would be for you to have some Thais read out 'hate' for you, and see how their pronunciation differs from yours.

[Vato]

What is the Thai word that would describe 'sexism' , someone who was 'sexist', a man who was chauvinistic?

Was thrying to explain the meaning to a Thai and they just could not grasp it.....

Help?

Doo Toog Paaed Onn.

Doo Toog-with negative critiscm...Paaed- sex....Onn -weak/er

in other words, being critical of the weaker sex.

[tgeezer]

They should get ความมีอคตีทางเพศ kwam me a ka de tang pate ( pate rymes with hate )

???

I might second your ???'s ... I guess เพศ rhymes with 'hate' if you say it with a Tinglish accent.

If you were in a normal conversation wanting to explain this, in relation to men being sexist against women, you might just say

ดูถูกผู้หญิง - to look down on women - I think it would feel more natural / be more readily understood.

I am not going to let this drop I have obviously made a mistake and although prepared to make gormless comments neither of you are prepared to help me get it right. The least you can do is give me a word with which it does ryme. My accent is considered to be 'received pronunciation' which used to be required on the BBC but without the twang of the 1950's if it helps you to find a word. I once met a newyorker who told me that หาด rymed with 'hot'

If your accent is RP English, then the exact vowel sound of Thai เพศ is not available, since RP English (like many other variations of English) has a slight vowel glide (starting from the same sound as in Thai, but then moving gradually towards a more closed sound) on 'hate'. It is less pronounced in RP though, than in for example Australian English or Cockney.

The vowel sound in เพศ - เอ is a more constant vowel sound. The closest referent I can give you is probably the Scottish English pronunciation of the vowel in 'hate' - although there is a problem in that description, because even within Scotland, pronunciations vary, and some Scottish dialects differ. More specifically, if you are familiar with English as spoken by Orkney Island Scots, then that would be a good referent.

Also, Jamaican English tends to have a constant vowel sound in 'hate' so that might work as a reasonable description too.

All that being said, perhaps the easiest way would be for you to have some Thais read out 'hate' for you, and see how their pronunciation differs from yours.

So you are saying that I have picked the wrong word as an example, I should have thought that was obvious and what; "I guess it rymes with hate if you say it in a tinglish accent" meant. Now I don't have my oscilloscope handy to see if my particular brand of received pronunciation has a glide toward the closed. Lets say it doesn't is hate still the wrong word.

I have just had a brainwave and looked up hate in my Oxford River Books English Thai Dictionary and it says that it is pronounced เมท and even better a bald pate (which I have) is pronounce เพท Which is exactly the same as เพศ

Edited February 16, 2009 by tgeezer

[Jay_Jay]

They should get ความมีอคตีทางเพศ kwam me a ka de tang pate ( pate rymes with hate )

???

I might second your ???'s ... I guess เพศ rhymes with 'hate' if you say it with a Tinglish accent.

If you were in a normal conversation wanting to explain this, in relation to men being sexist against women, you might just say

ดูถูกผู้หญิง - to look down on women - I think it would feel more natural / be more readily understood.

I am not going to let this drop I have obviously made a mistake and although prepared to make gormless comments neither of you are prepared to help me get it right. The least you can do is give me a word with which it does ryme. My accent is considered to be 'received pronunciation' which used to be required on the BBC but without the twang of the 1950's if it helps you to find a word. I once met a newyorker who told me that หาด rymed with 'hot'

If your accent is RP English, then the exact vowel sound of Thai เพศ is not available, since RP English (like many other variations of English) has a slight vowel glide (starting from the same sound as in Thai, but then moving gradually towards a more closed sound) on 'hate'. It is less pronounced in RP though, than in for example Australian English or Cockney.

The vowel sound in เพศ - เอ is a more constant vowel sound. The closest referent I can give you is probably the Scottish English pronunciation of the vowel in 'hate' - although there is a problem in that description, because even within Scotland, pronunciations vary, and some Scottish dialects differ. More specifically, if you are familiar with English as spoken by Orkney Island Scots, then that would be a good referent.

Also, Jamaican English tends to have a constant vowel sound in 'hate' so that might work as a reasonable description too.

All that being said, perhaps the easiest way would be for you to have some Thais read out 'hate' for you, and see how their pronunciation differs from yours.

So you are saying that I have picked the wrong word as an example, I should have thought that was obvious and what; "I guess it rymes with hate if you say it in a tinglish accent" meant. Now I don't have my oscilloscope handy to see if my particular brand of received pronunciation has a glide toward the closed. Lets say it doesn't is hate still the wrong word.

I have just had a brainwave and looked up hate in my Oxford River Books English Thai Dictionary and it says that it is pronounced เมท and even better a bald pate (which I have) is pronounce เพท Which is exactly the same as เพศ

Most of those dictionary transliterations are written by Thais based on their Tinglish pronuciation. In thai, there are no Diphthong (compound vowel) sounds followed by a consonant - e.g. /ɛɪt/ (eight). To fit into the Thai sound system, many of these diphthongs that we find in English are reduced to a single /ɛ/ vowel - เอ. So the word 'paid' pronounced in many versions of English as /pɛɪd/ becomes /pɛt/. This is understood by most English speakers and people just think it's a Thai accent. The problem comes when someone learning Thai might learn that 'เพศ' rhymes with 'hate' - and then the RP speaker of English may pronounce it as /pɛɪt/ - a pronunciation that would would almost certainly render a Thai scratching their head trying to figure out what was trying to be said. If you say 'hate' in a Scottish accent, it would be much closer.

[tgeezer]

I know that this subject is meat and bread to you lot but it doesn't have to be so complicated does it? I suggested เพศrymes with hate. This discussion is not about what the sound is, but what English sound is closest. I feel เอ is close to hate and the Thai phonetic team which produced the dictionary, five of them, felt that เพศ sounded like hate.