Reverse Culture Shock

[Heng]

Not too many things in the shock category as most of us travel back and forth. Um, I like that the automatic postal machines at the USPS actually work, unlike here... Is that a shocker?

Not too many Thai explorers, but if you compare plain jane Thais (and even the spoiled elite) who prosper abroad to foreigners (not counting the Chinese and Indians of course) who prosper here, it's no contest. Most foreigners give up after a relatively short struggle or spend their existence treading water here.

Could that be because Farangs have more limitations in what they can or can't do workwise and stricter immigration and labour policies than Asian settlers in Europe?... Or is it that Thai people are on the whole more worldly, better educated and more adaptable to working in a foreign country then westerners working in thailand ?

Haha! Seriously Heng, let's handicap Thai's trying to open a business in Canada as badly as Thailand does to foreigners and THEN see how well they do, you really see things in a strange light don't you?

Sorry but you are wrong here. Yes, laws are easier in the West, but Asian success rates has much more to do with their strategy. First off, the are rarely a solo player, as opposed to a team. Most Asian businesses are family businesses. There is no unity in business for farang. That is how immigrants grow wealth, they stick together and save and reinvest. That is the same reason why African Americans are poor, they have very weak family units. They also tend to immigrate with the sole goal of making money, as opposed to going on holiday and falling in love with a Thai bird and then deciding to open a bagel shop/bar. There are also often already established immigration populations in the various Western cities where they can run a business, whereas farang basically have no unity or community in Thailand (besides streets of farang operated bars and pubs.

There is some farang unity, but like the Asian version, it's usually within nationality groups and not a broad based Black Panther / Pink Guava kind of thing...

[Heng]

Not too many things in the shock category as most of us travel back and forth. Um, I like that the automatic postal machines at the USPS actually work, unlike here... Is that a shocker?

Not too many Thai explorers, but if you compare plain jane Thais (and even the spoiled elite) who prosper abroad to foreigners (not counting the Chinese and Indians of course) who prosper here, it's no contest. Most foreigners give up after a relatively short struggle or spend their existence treading water here.

Have you read the foreign business act recently?

Did you know that an awful lot of the most successful people anywhere don't whip out a rule book to see if every move they make is "okay/pre-approved/or safe to do" or not?

[luisparis]

Not too many Thai explorers, but if you compare plain jane Thais (and even the spoiled elite) who prosper abroad to foreigners (not counting the Chinese and Indians of course) who prosper here, it's no contest. Most foreigners give up after a relatively short struggle or spend their existence treading water here.

Nah...Come on.. that's one of the very phenomen that points to an inferior culture... except indians or chinese ? Lol ! That's hardly a small exception is it ? Thais are hardly servants in their home country... what percentage of thai citizen business owners are not ethnic chinese or indian relatively recent immigrants ?? I sure don't know many.

Besides, there are a bunch of western enterpreneurs that are doing fairly well in Thailand, like grossing millions of USD per year ,and it is a fair guess Thailand is not the most promising land for ambitious entrepreneurs.

As of thai enterpreneurs beeing succesful overseas, you had me here. Where ? Besides the Landmark in London, you've got herds of migrants who are mostly famous for giving head or opening small restaurants. I mean even in my field, in which Bangkok is the world capital, thai companies have a very hard time to impose themselves abroad (and the thai chinese are hardly better in this regard) - whereas indians and jews are everywhere.

Edited February 18, 2009 by luisparis

[luisparis]

multiple posting

Edited February 18, 2009 by luisparis

[luisparis]

multiple posting

Edited February 18, 2009 by luisparis

[luisparis]

multiple posting

Edited February 18, 2009 by luisparis

[Heng]

Not too many Thai explorers, but if you compare plain jane Thais (and even the spoiled elite) who prosper abroad to foreigners (not counting the Chinese and Indians of course) who prosper here, it's no contest. Most foreigners give up after a relatively short struggle or spend their existence treading water here.

Nah...Come on.. that's one of the very phenomen that points to an inferior culture... except indians or chinese ? Lol ! That's hardly a small exception is it ? Thais are hardly servants in their home country... what percentage of thai citizen business owners are not ethnic chinese or indian relatively recent immigrants ?? I sure don't know many.

Besides, there are a bunch of western enterpreneurs that are doing fairly well in Thailand, like grossing millions of USD per year ,and it is a fair guess Thailand is not the most promising land for ambitious entrepreneurs.

As of thai enterpreneurs beeing succesful overseas, you had me here. Where ? Besides the Landmark in London, you've got herds of migrants who are mostly famous for giving head or opening small restaurants. I mean even in my field, in which Bangkok is the world capital, thai companies have a very hard time to impose themselves abroad (and the thai chinese are hardly better in this regard) - whereas indians and jews are everywhere.

I point out Indians and the Chinese because after the first generation, they are Thai. Whereas other foreign groups tend to either quit or dissolve their identity after the first generation.

I didn't say there weren't any successful westerners here. I know of plenty myself.

My point was that compared to successful Thais (and yes, mostly Thai Chinese and Thai Indians) and of course Asians in general it's completely lopsided. On a fortune 500 type company level... you're right. Yes, I'm talking about the SME level which realistically is what is within reach of most people on the planet who aren't living vicariously through the very top tier of industry from what they see on TV or read about in the newspapers. Getting there first (the explorer argument) vs. pretty much permanent settlements... I'd say the latter wins out in terms of achievement.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Heng

[BygonKeaw]

Still daylight at 9pm

Cold and the sun beaming

pay b4 u get on a bus

cant touch sting nettles

a small young papaya costing 400 baht.

thinking its digusting eating sheep.

Oh and no sprayer to clean your ass or......................

[Heng]

In the USA there is always the running joke about how nobody wants to date Asian men, except for Asian girls who are not brave/mean enough to make their father want to kill himself by screwing a white guy. Quick, name an Asian male movie star who does not do karate. Therefore, I would imagine the hiso Thais going to school in the West would feel the same sort of insecurity that old farang feel when they go home - nobody is interested in them on a physical level, as opposed to Thailand where they are the man.

I've seen both sides of that one.... first as you mentioned, but also that for a lot of guys, the ol' "first you get the money, then you get the power, then you get the women" theorem translates pretty well everywhere, even for Asian fellas. However, like the tradeoff the farangs typically have to accept here, this usually means having to accept a lower "grade" of gal. You're not going to get the president of the Tri-Delts at your local college, but the been around the block Chi-O pledge who wants to spend more time at your high rise luxury dorm vs. her standard campus dorm is well within reach. You might not be Rico Suave on South Beach, but you certainly can be in Prague and Moscow (yeah, you have to ride a plane for 10+ hours to get there... not unlike Bangkok). etc. etc.

[luisparis]

Sorry but you are wrong here. Yes, laws are easier in the West, but Asian success rates has much more to do with their strategy. First off, the are rarely a solo player, as opposed to a team. Most Asian businesses are family businesses. There is no unity in business for farang. That is how immigrants grow wealth, they stick together and save and reinvest. That is the same reason why African Americans are poor, they have very weak family units. They also tend to immigrate with the sole goal of making money, as opposed to going on holiday and falling in love with a Thai bird and then deciding to open a bagel shop/bar. There are also often already established immigration populations in the various Western cities where they can run a business, whereas farang basically have no unity or community in Thailand (besides streets of farang operated bars and pubs.

Heng

That's quite different from your former post where you talked about thais. Yes it's obvious asian migrants travel succesfully, read a couple of years ago already that asian have higher incomes than caucasians in the US. They are getting noticeably stronger in Europe and the way they work hard and keep family ties is probably linked to their success. Jews again come to mind on this respect. I just don't see thais having an important share of that success, they do appear like an underperforming part of Asia.

Besides about succesful westerners in Thailand, they are probably not the ones who are coming for the love of a BG. I know or see plenty of expats and actually it's a very tiny minority that has a thai partner , and about none of the indian expats have one.

Edited February 18, 2009 by luisparis

[Maigo6]

The miserable people would come as a surprise too.

Unless of course the Thai person is used to being around the bitter and twisted segment of Farang society in Thailand, then they would think that everyone is as miserable as the ones they know in Thailand, heaven help us.

[Geekfreaklover]

Not too many things in the shock category as most of us travel back and forth. Um, I like that the automatic postal machines at the USPS actually work, unlike here... Is that a shocker?

Not too many Thai explorers, but if you compare plain jane Thais (and even the spoiled elite) who prosper abroad to foreigners (not counting the Chinese and Indians of course) who prosper here, it's no contest. Most foreigners give up after a relatively short struggle or spend their existence treading water here.

Could that be because Farangs have more limitations in what they can or can't do workwise and stricter immigration and labour policies than Asian settlers in Europe?... Or is it that Thai people are on the whole more worldly, better educated and more adaptable to working in a foreign country then westerners working in thailand ?

Not unlike humidity, drought, or cannibals, it's just another environmental condition that can be overcome.

Heng, please stay with the script.

We are not talking about Asians in general doing business overseas, we are talking about Thais conducting business overseas and the success rate of their ventures overseas compared with the sucess rate of Farangs working in thailand.

Most Europena countires allow Thai people to own land, buy houses and own companies ater a period of 2-3 years residency in the host nation. Compare this to the situation that foreigners have in Thailand.

The immigration system makes it easier for Thais to set up business overseas, but despite this they have not, in general terms been able to establish themselves, apart from the odd resturant or cleanng service, with the same success that Farangs have done in Thailand.

Lets think what Bill Heinke or Jim Thompson have acheived in thailand. Is there a Thai equvilent of these bsuinessmen working in the west, apart from Taksin.. I think not.

Despite working against all the odds in terms of immigration and company ownership farangs have made a sharp impact on thai business, for better or worse. Don't try to tell me that there are Thai's doing the same in west. As far as i know it is not happening.....Red Bull did well. Taksin is welcome in the States....

But please don't tell me that Thais are by nature gifted global businessmen. Because they aint.

[Pdaz]

Drivers giving way and knowing how to use roundabouts left my wife speechless.

My wife understood within 1 minute of driving with me in the UK, why driving in Thailand drives me nuts.

Yes my girl visited UK for first time over Xmas this year... Apart from the cold and frost she was amazed by the traffic flow... and the fact that everybody indicated their intention and stayed in the correct lane.. Roundabouts were the most amazing of all.. ''So that's how it works''

Funnier still was taking some cosmetics back to 'The Body Shop' The cash was refunded straight away. No fuss, no questions apart from 'can I see the receipt, sign here please' My GF was astounded... 'They gave you your money back''

Not to mention 'farangs' doing manual work and mending the roads, delivering letters and washing cars in the supermarket carpark... Think she has a better understanding of tourists who save all year for a two week trip to Thailand now...

Funnier still when you take into account she in Uni educated, from BKK and has travelled with me to several other Asian destinations in the past.. God know what the average Isaan provincial straight from the village must think when they visit their 'teerak' for the first time...

[Heng]

/quote

Sorry but you are wrong here. Yes, laws are easier in the West, but Asian success rates has much more to do with their strategy. First off, the are rarely a solo player, as opposed to a team. Most Asian businesses are family businesses. There is no unity in business for farang. That is how immigrants grow wealth, they stick together and save and reinvest. That is the same reason why African Americans are poor, they have very weak family units. They also tend to immigrate with the sole goal of making money, as opposed to going on holiday and falling in love with a Thai bird and then deciding to open a bagel shop/bar. There are also often already established immigration populations in the various Western cities where they can run a business, whereas farang basically have no unity or community in Thailand (besides streets of farang operated bars and pubs.

/quote

Heng

That's quite different from your former post where you talked about thais. Yes it's obvious asian migrants travel succesfully, read a couple of years ago already that asian have higher incomes than caucasians in the US. They are getting noticeably stronger in Europe and the way they work hard and keep family ties is probably linked to their success. Jews again come to mind on this respect. I just don't see thais having an important share of that success, they do appear like an underperforming part of Asia.

Besides about succesful westerners in Thailand, they are probably not the ones who are coming for the love of a BG. I know or see plenty of expats and actually it's a very tiny minority that has a thai partner , and about none of the indian expats have one.

Just to make sure, the above quote is Dave's, not my own. And yes, I do agree with you if you're referring to indigenous Thais... but like many countries in the world, Thailand is also a country made up of immigrants... just with fewer nationalities having success here. No different from countries in Africa where there were few select nationalities prospering in the diamond or ivory trade.

In my experience it's a fairly even mix as to those with local partners vs. those who prefer to BYOB. For the former though, it's still seems quite the norm to marry down and not as in Yale marrying down to Cornell, but more like 'dropped out of Crenshaw High.' This is one contributor to the lack of social network, because one half of the partnership views social networking as spending time rolling up balls of sticky rice and drinking moonshine.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Heng

[BygonKeaw]

The miserable people would come as a surprise too.

Unless of course the Thai person is used to being around the bitter and twisted segment of Farang society in Thailand, then they would think that everyone is as miserable as the ones they know in Thailand, heaven help us.

Are you a member of that society?

[dumball]

Ha, I found the images ... Sorry about the bad angle, but it gives you an idea of what happens to these kids who are given everything... He actually called us after a day of trying to clean it himself... Poor job he did. He didn't want us taking photos, so I used my camera at opportune times before telling him I literally couldn't help him, the walls were ruined the carpet was ruined he got evicted the next morning...

Anyway Take a GANDER

Looks about right for a Thai 555 . No . No , Magoo , please don't beat me , LOL

[BygonKeaw]

Not too many things in the shock category as most of us travel back and forth. Um, I like that the automatic postal machines at the USPS actually work, unlike here... Is that a shocker?

Not too many Thai explorers, but if you compare plain jane Thais (and even the spoiled elite) who prosper abroad to foreigners (not counting the Chinese and Indians of course) who prosper here, it's no contest. Most foreigners give up after a relatively short struggle or spend their existence treading water here.

Could that be because Farangs have more limitations in what they can or can't do workwise and stricter immigration and labour policies than Asian settlers in Europe?... Or is it that Thai people are on the whole more worldly, better educated and more adaptable to working in a foreign country then westerners working in thailand ?

Not unlike humidity, drought, or cannibals, it's just another environmental condition that can be overcome.

Heng, please stay with the script.

We are not talking about Asians in general doing business overseas, we are talking about Thais conducting business overseas and the success rate of their ventures overseas compared with the sucess rate of Farangs working in thailand.

Most Europena countires allow Thai people to own land, buy houses and own companies ater a period of 2-3 years residency in the host nation. Compare this to the situation that foreigners have in Thailand.

The immigration system makes it easier for Thais to set up business overseas, but despite this they have not, in general terms been able to establish themselves, apart from the odd resturant or cleanng service, with the same success that Farangs have done in Thailand.

Lets think what Bill Heinke or Jim Thompson have acheived in thailand. Is there a Thai equvilent of these bsuinessmen working in the west, apart from Taksin.. I think not.

Despite working against all the odds in terms of immigration and company ownership farangs have made a sharp impact on thai business, for better or worse. Don't try to tell me that there are Thai's doing the same in west. As far as i know it is not happening.....Red Bull did well. Taksin is welcome in the States....

But please don't tell me that Thais are by nature gifted global businessmen. Because they aint.

well in my hometown in the uk there is a thai guy has 3 resturants, 2 in another town another somewhere else. hotel and a thai supermarket chain that supplies most of southern england with thai food imports.

Im guessing he makes alot of money as his ladbrookes betting lose was 109,000 pounds last year alone.

Come to the uk 15 years ago with nothing and probably the richest person i know.

That blows your theory out the water but yes he only paid my gf minimum a wage for 1 month before i found her a good job.

[Thai at Heart]

Well I sincerely hope that the term look kreung doesn't hold back my kids or stereotype them in any way. Of course it won't. LOL.

Thai society is so compartmentalised on the basis of wealth and ethnicity it would of course be a shame to point out in who's hands 70% of the wealth lies and of which ethnicity they are.

When will there be an Indian Thai or is that Thai Indian prime minister?

[dave9988]

The miserable people would come as a surprise too.

Unless of course the Thai person is used to being around the bitter and twisted segment of Farang society in Thailand, then they would think that everyone is as miserable as the ones they know in Thailand, heaven help us.

Yes. They also have the pain of witnessing drug use and alcoholism, and if they date a farang, spousal abuse. These are things which do not exist in kind-hearted Thai society. Its like when Adam and Eve left the garden of Eden

[dumball]

The miserable people would come as a surprise too.

Unless of course the Thai person is used to being around the bitter and twisted segment of Farang society in Thailand, then they would think that everyone is as miserable as the ones they know in Thailand, heaven help us.

I have travelled extensively in North America , and find it hard to recall anyone as 'Twitter and bisted' as you get at times on this forum , other than that "You ain't all bad " .

[Maigo6]

The miserable people would come as a surprise too.

Unless of course the Thai person is used to being around the bitter and twisted segment of Farang society in Thailand, then they would think that everyone is as miserable as the ones they know in Thailand, heaven help us.

Are you a member of that society?

I tried to join, but was refused for being content in Thailand.

[Heng]

Not too many things in the shock category as most of us travel back and forth. Um, I like that the automatic postal machines at the USPS actually work, unlike here... Is that a shocker?

Not too many Thai explorers, but if you compare plain jane Thais (and even the spoiled elite) who prosper abroad to foreigners (not counting the Chinese and Indians of course) who prosper here, it's no contest. Most foreigners give up after a relatively short struggle or spend their existence treading water here.

Could that be because Farangs have more limitations in what they can or can't do workwise and stricter immigration and labour policies than Asian settlers in Europe?... Or is it that Thai people are on the whole more worldly, better educated and more adaptable to working in a foreign country then westerners working in thailand ?

Not unlike humidity, drought, or cannibals, it's just another environmental condition that can be overcome.

Heng, please stay with the script.

We are not talking about Asians in general doing business overseas, we are talking about Thais conducting business overseas and the success rate of their ventures overseas compared with the sucess rate of Farangs working in thailand.

Most Europena countires allow Thai people to own land, buy houses and own companies ater a period of 2-3 years residency in the host nation. Compare this to the situation that foreigners have in Thailand.

The immigration system makes it easier for Thais to set up business overseas, but despite this they have not, in general terms been able to establish themselves, apart from the odd resturant or cleanng service, with the same success that Farangs have done in Thailand.

Lets think what Bill Heinke or Jim Thompson have acheived in thailand. Is there a Thai equvilent of these bsuinessmen working in the west, apart from Taksin.. I think not.

Despite working against all the odds in terms of immigration and company ownership farangs have made a sharp impact on thai business, for better or worse. Don't try to tell me that there are Thai's doing the same in west. As far as i know it is not happening.....Red Bull did well. Taksin is welcome in the States....

But please don't tell me that Thais are by nature gifted global businessmen. Because they aint.

Geekfreak, please stop living vicariously through the top tier.

I'm saying there are more successful Thais abroad than there are successful foreigners of all nationalities here in Thailand.

As mentioned, I'm not talking about the numbers of Thais who have public companies on the NYSE. I'm talking about regular families who have SME's that have slowly expanded generation upon generation. They own restaurants, gas stations, supermarkets, Supercuts, KFC's, McDonald's, etc... and they typically do it all without getting sucked into or overwhelmed by the system by keeping their tax liabilities low (I'm sure other nationalities would choose to reinvest in a near tax free fashion in land "back home" IF they still had a "back home"). Compared to farangs who are typically more adept at transferring wealth outside of their family through long term rentals and dispersing it through non-productive branches of their extended families. I'm not sure how you define 'success,' but not even being able to circumvent legal frameworks meant for the huddled masses is not it.

You're saying that the rules here don't "allow" success... that's silly. Bill H. and Jim T. did precisely that... they adapted and often bypassed the accepted norm. They didn't just get handed their connections in a lottery... they were cultivated (in Bill's case, his parents helped out a lot).

[BygonKeaw]

The miserable people would come as a surprise too.

Unless of course the Thai person is used to being around the bitter and twisted segment of Farang society in Thailand, then they would think that everyone is as miserable as the ones they know in Thailand, heaven help us.

Are you a member of that society?

I tried to join, but was refused for being content in Thailand.

I cant imagine any thaivisa member is content. This site is for venting anger so ive been told.

[G54]

Not so much abroad, but a Farang movie I and the g/f were watching, where they practically ripped each others clothes off andmade love on the sofa. My g/f was shocked and disgusted that they were not in the bedroom!!

I can imagine some of the sights, sounds and activities some Thai people must find shocking when they go to a more socially liberated country.

[Sabum]

You are so full of poopy Heng, those aren't minor obstacles!! It is extremely difficult to get anything done properly here in Thailand, yet in Canada we GIVE anyone money to open businesses! BAH! Not even close, how can you say what you say and not burst out laughing at the outrageousness of it?

[Brigante7]

In the USA there is always the running joke about how nobody wants to date Asian men, except for Asian girls who are not brave/mean enough to make their father want to kill himself by screwing a white guy. Quick, name an Asian male movie star who does not do karate. Therefore, I would imagine the hiso Thais going to school in the West would feel the same sort of insecurity that old farang feel when they go home - nobody is interested in them on a physical level, as opposed to Thailand where they are the man.

Most of the stuff listed in this thread is not about culture shock as it as about your partner not being the sharpest tool in the shed. Just saying.

So a Thai who has never been out of Thailand and can't believe how cold it can be in another country or has been raised to believe that all farang's are rich, you think they are a bit slow, is that what you are saying?

Edited February 18, 2009 by Brigante7

[Birdman]

In the USA there is always the running joke about how nobody wants to date Asian men, except for Asian girls who are not brave/mean enough to make their father want to kill himself by screwing a white guy. Quick, name an Asian male movie star who does not do karate. Therefore, I would imagine the hiso Thais going to school in the West would feel the same sort of insecurity that old farang feel when they go home - nobody is interested in them on a physical level, as opposed to Thailand where they are the man.

Most of the stuff listed in this thread is not about culture shock as it as about your partner not being the sharpest tool in the shed. Just saying.

Was it you, who was astonished, that 80% of TV members live in Thailand? If you would be here, you would see many farang females together with Thai men.

[Heng]

You are so full of poopy Heng, those aren't minor obstacles!! It is extremely difficult to get anything done properly here in Thailand, yet in Canada we GIVE anyone money to open businesses! BAH! Not even close, how can you say what you say and not burst out laughing at the outrageousness of it?

Oh I'm definitely laughing. Laughing at how people are saying that success is difficult to achieve because the rules are "unfair." No kidding, success isn't easy? Some people simply cannot comprehend that just because the hurdles are in different positions and that the goal posts are constantly moving, it's all still the game of life. One may as well be complaining that the weather isn't the same as back home either or that you still can't figure anything out because you didn't grow up using the metric system.

[on-on]

And thats like 9 months of mcdonalds and kfc wrappers under his desk... Never once prepared his own food.

Good God, I can smell the stench through the monitor.

[luisparis]

With Heng on that one. Don't know about Canada but in EU it's quite difficult for a thai to move there if he just decides to do so. Not much of an issue in Thailand, most work and immigration documents can be arranged with some money and a not even good lawyer (mine was a non english speaking disaster and we still got 1 year visas for the family and 1 work permit for me ) . Besides rules are cumbersome in Thailand but so much can be done outside those rules one has to relativise. I mean my wife even noticed Superrich office indicated on a tourist map... than there's a competitive world out there...