Expat Developer Shot Dead In Patong

[sriracha john]

Can you tell me how come that there is so many difference between the reports of the Phuketwan and the Phuket gazette. The first paper report that the guy came to live in the island two years ago, and the other said that he as been living here since five years, he was cribled by seven bullets in the Gazette but only by four in Phuketwan. According to the Gazette, the police were alerted at 20:30 but the Phuketwan wrote that they were to the scene at 18:45??? In one report, the man's wife said that she was sitting with him in their truck when the shooting occured and in the other one she said that her husband when out after receiving a phone call.

That's very strange isn't?

Canadian man shot dead in Thailand

Francis Alex Degioanni, 34, was shot eight times as he sat in his vehicle outside his home on Patong Beach

- CBC News

[sriracha john]

Canadian gunned down in Thailand

Police did not say where in Canada Mr. Degioanni was from.

Montreal...

Father mourns son killed in Thailand

MONTREAL — Two days ago, Mario Degioanni lost his only son.

On Friday, all he wanted to do was regain custody of his three-year-old granddaughter.

"Right now, that's what is of the utmost importance: to get her back to Canada with her grandparents," he said in a telephone interview from his home in Val des Monts, Que.

On Thursday, Degioanni's son, Francis, a former model turned property developer who was raised in Montreal, left the apartment he shared with his wife and daughter in Patong Beach on the popular tourist island of Phuket in Thailand.

He had just got into his black Toyota when he was approached by two men. The pair, described in news reports as having short, military-style haircuts, shot him eight times with .38 calibre pistols, hitting him the head, neck, chest and one arm.

It was Francis's 34th birthday.

"I just think his murderers waited for that day," his father said. "But I don't know why." What Degioanni does know is that for the past few months, his son had become increasingly nervous during the phone calls he made to his parents twice a week.

"There had been problems with a former partner, the disappearance of about $750,000," he said. He said things came to a head when his son called last month to tell him he'd been hospitalized because someone had tried to poison him.

"I'd always tell him I was afraid of Thailand, that he should come back to Canada, for the security, that this is a normal country. "But he loved Thailand too much. It was too beautiful, a paradise, as far as he was concerned," he said.

"Unfortunately, that wasn't the case."

Degioanni said his son had lived in Thailand for nine years and, after having travelled much of the world working as a professional model, had decided to become involved in construction.

"He'd be travelling all the time — Japan, California. But when he took up the career of a builder he seemed to have found something he truly liked."

Kathu police Supt. Grissak Songmoonark told the Phuket Gazette, a local newspaper, that police were investigating whether a current court case involving Degioanni led to the killing.

A business partner had claimed that Degioanni had cheated him out of 20 million baht ($704,822 Cdn).

- Montreal Gazette with files from Canwest News Service / 2009-02-20

[Wombat6]

It is always sad to learn that another resident "Farang" has been assassinated and my condolences are offered to his family. I agree with some of you that have posted on this thread that there is far too much speculation without knowing any of the facts. We all agree I am sure, that you don't have to be a Rhodes scholar to know that the Police will be able to figure out that (1)whoever made the phone call is definitely involved, (2)the person in the Court Case would be a suspect. I just hope that justice will prevail in the end

[SeanPhuket]

My sincerest wishes for the family.

A very sad day for honest Thais and Falangs,

What????????????????????????

Since when have honest people carried guns????????????

<deleted>?

[Pdaz]

Something fishy..

34 yrs old.. Been selling property there for 5 yrs... Had developed a 7 story condo.. Had lost 20 million Baht....

Was he a lottery winner, Internet millionaire, Trust fund kid or was his Thai wife rich ?

Seems a awful lot of money made in a very short period of time

Its not alot of money on the grand scale of things....you don't think people get in the property market to make a few thousand baht a year do you?

No I don't risk and reward are often linked.. In Western countries you can start with next to nothing and become rich thru risk and hard work. Especially in property where it's posible to use debt to your advantage.. But in Thailand where it's next to imposible for farangs to finance houses thru bank loans.. You generally need to have alot of cash in the first place... Ergo my post.. Young guy.. Hadn't been in Thailand very long but had enough cash to finance a condo developement and loose 20 million baht..

I'm not saying it is imposible as I have several friends who have made good money in Thailand even though they started with comparitively little money.. But it strikes me as unusual that a guy could a mass that sort of wealth in such a short period .. Unless he was already wealthy or had access to funds from family or rich Thai friends/wife etc...

[ItsPhuketTownNotCity]

doing business in this country is crazy...if you don't have people trying to scam

you constantly, the police will gladly relieve you of your money if the opportunity exists.

buyer beware x 1000

My golden rules for living in Thailand which I have followed successfully for the past 10years:

Don't start a business

Don't marry a Thai lady (or her family)

Don't drive anything (car or motorbike)

Keep a low profile

Don't appear to be rich

Don't act like a prat

That's pretty good but here some modifications:

1. Keep a low profile

2. Don't appear to be rich

3. Don't act like a prat; especially, don't make a Thai lose face in public

4. If you run a business here, the more money you are taking out of a Thai's pocket - even if it is legitimate competition - the higher the risk

And most importantly:

5. Never make yourself more valuable being dead than being alive

[steelepulse]

RIP and condolences to the family. 

[saneroad]

UPDATE Saturday 2pm

****

The killers of Canadian property developer Francis Alex Degioanni parked their motorcycle about 60 metres from their target, and walked up the suburban street to their date with death.

It was Thursday evening, about 6.40pm, with dusk about to close in.

Outside a new three-storey block of townhouses, Degioanni had just parked his black pickup diagonally, with his lucky 7777 numberplate just visible at sunset.

Alongside the Degioanni office-home, with its glass windows and vertical blinds, the proprietress of the four-storey My Living Room hotel smiled as she saw the two men approaching, thinking they might be incoming guests.

Degioanni's Thai wife of five months, Nanthawadee Phenjaroenwattana, was out of the pickup and opening the door of the office-home when the two men drew level with the driver's side window.

Degioanni's two-year-old son, from a previous relationship, was in the cabin of the pickup.

The killer fired eight times, the marks of the bullethole entry point reveal today at Kathu Police Station.

One of several bullet that passed through the metal skin of the vehicle in exiting also pierced the rollerdoor shutter of the office next door.

***

Full story & photo album: Patong Killers 'Strolled to Date with Death'

[slackula]

...with his lucky 7777 numberplate ...

An interesting word to use, given the context..

[Ga-gai]

It's difficult to NOT speculate, since there are sooo many stories about idiot westerners that truly believe that his thai girlfriend of wife really love their him. This is a country were money is more worth than real love. They don't love the way we look, are or behave. The only reason 80% us who lives here in LOS are having a thai woman, is because these women are poor. (or at least they want more without having to work their ass off for it). Equally... The guys that think they can buy someone's heart and love with money, really deserves these women. They deserves each other.

Last week my wife spoke to a woman that she haven't met for about five years. The woman told her story. She was tired tired of her thai boyfriend and then went to Phuket in order to find a farang that could take her abroad. That was the plan she had staked out. Finally she found one who took her to Europe and married her. (would he ever marry a hooker in his own country? probably not.) She stayed in Europe a couple of years. She also had a child with him. (besides the two she already had with her earlier thai boyfriend.) Then suddenly one day he discovered (from his doctor) that he had cancer and it could not be cured. It was only a matter of 6-9 of months, before he would get so ill by the cancer that he then would die. During this time he really wanted to make something for his wife to live on after he's gone. Because he really loved her. He ran a small business with importing stuff from Thailand into his country. So before it was time to leave for good, he were about to really make sure that everything worked with this business so she could at least make money on that. So last week she came back to Thailand and also happened to meet my wife at told this story. My wife then asked her how she felt about her husband. She replied that he have been really nice to her, but... She didn't love him. To her he was only someone who could take her away from the boring life she had earlier.

Man.... These people doesn't have any hearts...!

Another story that I've experienced myself. A woman in my city one day came to ask my wife if I could place a telephone call to Europe. Her 'farang' husband were in a coma at the local hospital after something happened to him. (she didn't told us why) She wnated my help to call her husbands insurance company and ask how much she will get when he dies.

Man.... They have been married for 17 years and had 2 teenage children. Why couldn't she show her respect and stay besides him at the hospital.

Another woman that's married to a 'farang' where visiting her hometown (here) together with her husband. She and her husband went to the local disco here, together with her brother and a friend of his. The real story was that this "friend of her brother's" actually was her extra lover that she have had before she met her husband and also enjoyed during the occasions she went to Thailand alone to "see her family".

Man......... Why do she have to make her husband to appear like an idiot, bringing her lover as well when they were out for a nice time?

And so it goes on. Have more stories, but I'll spare the world from those.

I don't know what my wife really feels for me either. That's very scary. The more I think of it, the more I fell that I'm married with a stranger that I don't know if she really loves me. She's nice to me and all that. But... If she had to choose between her family and me, she would probably choose her family. That's just the way it is.

So what about this thread's topic? Well This young fellows death could be because of many reasons. Married for only five months.... Well, I give up!

Edited February 21, 2009 by Ga-gai

[orchidlady]

With all the rampant speculation going on in this thread-shocked that no one has noticed the similarity(?) in spelling of the names of the Thai wife [Tawadee Pencharoenwattana] and supposed Thai girl friend [Nanthawadee Phenjaroenwatthana].

Take away the "Nan..h" letters from first name of girl friend and you have the spelling of the wife's first name.

The last names are too similar--sounds like English translation of Thai letters--"Pench" + aroenwattana = wife's last name; "Phenj" + aroenwattHana = girl friend's last name.

Don't think this is a coincidence--I believe this is another example of fine (!!) Thai journalism....

[slackula]

With all the rampant speculation going on in this thread-shocked that no one has noticed the similarity(?) in spelling of the names of the Thai wife [Tawadee Pencharoenwattana] and supposed Thai girl friend [Nanthawadee Phenjaroenwatthana].

Take away the "Nan..h" letters from first name of girl friend and you have the spelling of the wife's first name.

The last names are too similar--sounds like English translation of Thai letters--"Pench" + aroenwattana = wife's last name; "Phenj" + aroenwattHana = girl friend's last name.

Don't think this is a coincidence--I believe this is another example of fine (!!) Thai journalism....

Well spotted.

[Sir Burr]

It's difficult to NOT speculate, since there are sooo many stories about idiot westerners that truly believe that his thai girlfriend of wife really love their him.

Last week my wife spoke to a woman that she haven't met for about five years. !

So....yours is "different"........right?

[CroBiker]

It's difficult to NOT speculate, since there are sooo many stories about idiot westerners that truly believe that his thai girlfriend of wife really love their him.

Last week my wife spoke to a woman that she haven't met for about five years. !

So....yours is "different"........right?

He didn't say that, read again:

I don't know what my wife really feels for me either. That's very scary. The more I think of it, the more I fell that I'm married with a stranger that I don't know if she really loves me. She's nice to me and all that. But... If she had to choose between her family and me, she would probably choose her family. That's just the way it is.

[bulmercke]

"When Mr Degioanni got into his car, two men pulled up on a motorbike and opened fire. They then fled, Ms Nanthawadee said."

And the victim was supposedly carrying a gun which was found in his car.

In situations like this - seconds count - and a few seconds can mean the difference between survival and death -

If only!

[nakachalet]

about 5 yrs ago, a francis from phuket came to seek an eight digits real estate coastal developmental loan in usd. the transaction was not consumated because of the legal title of the property. he was straight forward and his thai wife was also a very sharp lady. just want to say a few positive words on his behalf and of course it was quite a few years ago.

[ThaisGood]

The fact is

life is cheap here

In Thailand, we believe in vigilante = ศาลเตี้ย

we don't go to the courts of law = ศาลสูง = ศาลชั้นต้น/ศาลอุทธรณ์/ศาลฎีกา

Thai schools of Law are not popular .... just ***nothing at all*** comparing to the school of medicine/bzyness/finanace etc...

Lawyers are considered to be in the Low-to-Average/Moderate class

I am Thai and I DO NOT trust "The police department & Justice system of TH"

-------------------------

Are you sure? Maybe it is different for foreigners living in Thailand. Because I can tell you a story. Some years ago I had a problem with a Euro sleaze in Bangkok, I won't go into details. I am not a newcomer to Thailand, and I do business there (plenty of opportunity for foreigners by the way, despite what others say in this thread). I am not Thai. I contacted the Euro by phone. He says this mumbo-jumbo about the Thai mafia and all his connections, blah blah blah. He says if I mess with him, I should probably just, you know, fear for my life!! <deleted>.

I just had my good friend who is the owner of a large business tell me the name of his LAWYER. This lawyer went to Harvard. I paid the lawyer only US$1500. The lawyer did background on the case and sent sleazy Euro a formal letter. Sleazy Euro DISAPPEARED as a problem for me and my business. I saw him a year later and he was probably still working his scams but against other people, not me. Thanks to my lawyer. Who is prestigious and well educated.

[geriatrickid]

Real estate has also been a tricky business. Even the most successful of developers today often got their start doing transactions that could be described as sleazy. Tell me something I didn't know. Still doesn't justify wacking a guy like this.

[inmemorylsx]

Canadian gunned down on his birthday

When contacted by the Gazette today, an official at the Canadian Embassy cited legal reasons in declining to give any information about the case.

-- Phuket Gazette 2009-02-20

As someone who had the unfortunate experience of a dear one pass on in Phuket,

I know from experience that the Thai police and hospital staff were professional, caring and extremely kind.

Their expertise learned since the Tsunami and professionalism was extremely comforting and I will always be thankful to many people in Phuket.

The stupidity and unprofessionalism came from the Canadian Embassy and the DFAIT.

I advise the Canadian family to trust the Thai officials, Thai hospital and tell the Canadian Embassy losers to go back to their boring daily lives watching the second hand on the clock tick away...

I will always return to Phuket and have many times since as the kindness and smiles of the Thais in Phuket are something that I will always respect and be thankful for.

[ngeean]

Scarey, life is cheap in Thailand.

I have been saying the same thing for years. Most Thais never think past the here and now, which is a lot of the problem. Attitudes towards farang have really changed since I first moved to the kingdom in 1994. It seems we were once a novelty; now we are becoming pests :-p

Edited February 21, 2009 by ngeean

[cognos]

Overgeneralizing can be a slippery slope argument,however I appreciate your information and enjoyed reading your post.In general some thai women are scammers in varying degrees..as are a certain percentage of all peoples in all countries..before my thai wife,I had several thai girlfriends of various degrees of "shadiness" from white ish to darker,for lack of better words.I know of an example of a guy In Canada whose wife just stays in Thailand after her Canadian citizenship was finalized in 2006.He sends her money and she meets other farang boyfriends in her area of Thailand.I would never tell this guy because he has his head in the "sand".He knows pretty well anyway.There are many good conservative thai woman too.Once some of the bar girls have been working in the bars for too long,they can get jaded by the whole lifestyle.. by the lowest common denominator of farang drunks and sex tourists,then they may develop a bit of a drinking problem.You can take the girl out of the bar...but perhaps you can't take the bar out of the girl.I am not denigrating bar girls at all,most are trying to help their families.I wanted to meet a Conservative,educated,jai dee,hard working,attractive(duh)thai lady and get to know her family well.Many of us farang believe our wives love us,but we are also aware that things can turn on a dime for any number of reasons.We are all somewhat deluded at times.This poor man's very unfortunate killing could have been avoided by him making different and possibly better life choices.We all make mistakes,and I just wish he had done things differently.Us farang can learn from this tragedy.In Thailand I like to be somewhat humble and show people that you care through actions,and it's likely you'll have few if any enemies.

It's difficult to NOT speculate, since there are sooo many stories about idiot westerners that truly believe that his thai girlfriend of wife really love their him. This is a country were money is more worth than real love. They don't love the way we look, are or behave. The only reason 80% us who lives here in LOS are having a thai woman, is because these women are poor. (or at least they want more without having to work their ass off for it). Equally... The guys that think they can buy someone's heart and love with money, really deserves these women. They deserves each other.

Last week my wife spoke to a woman that she haven't met for about five years. The woman told her story. She was tired tired of her thai boyfriend and then went to Phuket in order to find a farang that could take her abroad. That was the plan she had staked out. Finally she found one who took her to Europe and married her. (would he ever marry a hooker in his own country? probably not.) She stayed in Europe a couple of years. She also had a child with him. (besides the two she already had with her earlier thai boyfriend.) Then suddenly one day he discovered (from his doctor) that he had cancer and it could not be cured. It was only a matter of 6-9 of months, before he would get so ill by the cancer that he then would die. During this time he really wanted to make something for his wife to live on after he's gone. Because he really loved her. He ran a small business with importing stuff from Thailand into his country. So before it was time to leave for good, he were about to really make sure that everything worked with this business so she could at least make money on that. So last week she came back to Thailand and also happened to meet my wife at told this story. My wife then asked her how she felt about her husband. She replied that he have been really nice to her, but... She didn't love him. To her he was only someone who could take her away from the boring life she had earlier.

Man.... These people doesn't have any hearts...!

Another story that I've experienced myself. A woman in my city one day came to ask my wife if I could place a telephone call to Europe. Her 'farang' husband were in a coma at the local hospital after something happened to him. (she didn't told us why) She wnated my help to call her husbands insurance company and ask how much she will get when he dies.

Man.... They have been married for 17 years and had 2 teenage children. Why couldn't she show her respect and stay besides him at the hospital.

Another woman that's married to a 'farang' where visiting her hometown (here) together with her husband. She and her husband went to the local disco here, together with her brother and a friend of his. The real story was that this "friend of her brother's" actually was her extra lover that she have had before she met her husband and also enjoyed during the occasions she went to Thailand alone to "see her family".

Man......... Why do she have to make her husband to appear like an idiot, bringing her lover as well when they were out for a nice time?

And so it goes on. Have more stories, but I'll spare the world from those.

I don't know what my wife really feels for me either. That's very scary. The more I think of it, the more I fell that I'm married with a stranger that I don't know if she really loves me. She's nice to me and all that. But... If she had to choose between her family and me, she would probably choose her family. That's just the way it is.

So what about this thread's topic? Well This young fellows death could be because of many reasons. Married for only five months.... Well, I give up!

[Ga-gai]

Overgeneralizing can be a slippery slope argument,however I appreciate your information and enjoyed reading your post.In general some thai women are scammers in varying degrees..as are a certain percentage of all peoples in all countries..before my thai wife,I had several thai girlfriends of various degrees of "shadiness" from white ish to darker,for lack of better words.I know of an example of a guy In Canada whose wife just stays in Thailand after her Canadian citizenship was finalized in 2006.He sends her money and she meets other farang boyfriends in her area of Thailand.I would never tell this guy because he has his head in the "sand".He knows pretty well anyway.There are many good conservative thai woman too.Once some of the bar girls have been working in the bars for too long,they can get jaded by the whole lifestyle.. by the lowest common denominator of farang drunks and sex tourists,then they may develop a bit of a drinking problem.You can take the girl out of the bar...but perhaps you can't take the bar out of the girl.I am not denigrating bar girls at all,most are trying to help their families.I wanted to meet a Conservative,educated,jai dee,hard working,attractive(duh)thai lady and get to know her family well.Many of us farang believe our wives love us,but we are also aware that things can turn on a dime for any number of reasons.We are all somewhat deluded at times.This poor man's very unfortunate killing could have been avoided by him making different and possibly better life choices.We all make mistakes,and I just wish he had done things differently.Us farang can learn from this tragedy.In Thailand I like to be somewhat humble and show people that you care through actions,and it's likely you'll have few if any enemies.

I don't live at a tourist region. Have no experience with the bar-street life, except some occasions when I've met some old friends that happened to come here on holiday and then Pattaya. In 10 years here, maybe I've gone there 6-7 times, 2-3 days each. In fact... I see strange behavior against thai-only couples almost every day. They cheat on each other. Cheat on money. Waste all the family 'fortune' either on karaoke women (the male) or illegal card playing (mostly women). Upon that, there are sometimes a few 'happy' westerners that comes here occasionally. I'm sure there are good thai women as well. But the better education and family background, the less the reason to marry a 'farang'. I can't recall such high rate on cheating and unfaithfullness between couples from the country I come from. Young or old, doesn't matter. Almost all do it (man and women), if they get the chance. Maybe I sound cynical. But I ask myself daily. Where is the the pure love between couples? Not the forced attachment. Not the need for status and "I-give-you--you-give-me deals". In fact... In the land of plenty of sex, I see very little pure love. They are all breded on: "-Love is what you get when you take care of you family." Higher education or good manors simply just hide it better.

Like the situation when I met newly married guy from the same country as me. I wished him good luck and fortune. Then I asked him how long he have known his wife. -About 5 months he said. -Aha...? i said. -Are you sure you're not being a cheap ride for her only? -No, no... This lady is not a bar girl. She's been studying at the university! She's educated! In fact, we have been arranged through a relative of hers who is already living in my country and married with my friend. -Aha...? i said again. -So where are you going for honeymoon then? i asked. -Well I told her that I wanted to take and her two children (!!!hello!!!) on honeymoon to Singapore. -But she wasn't interested in that. -She just told me that it is better that we skip that and go to your country directly instead! -Awww....! I said inside my head. -Ok, I you wish best of good luck then! I said.

Man... This is really really silly. I bet that guy is more careful when buying a used car then he was on his newly acquired wife. Just because they are educated and not working in a bar, doesn't mean a thing. It's only a illusion equally built up by all of the involved. Have anyone here met a thai woman that loves to read poetry? I'm sure I'm not wrong by saying that big deal of these women (if you're a hetero male) don't know what real love is. They are only carrying the guilt that they must take care of mum and dad in order have the "love" of theirs. But what parent do actually love a child by placing that guilt around its neck? That is probably why they truly can't love their partner. It's always the family. You can make the "test" yourself. Go and ask your wife, girlfriend or whatever: -What is love? I'll bet she will answer: -Take care of family.

The "right" answer would probably be like: -Love is something you can't explain, define or let go. You just feel a strong desire to be with that person, no matter who he is, where he comes from or what he do.

Edited February 21, 2009 by Ga-gai

[edwinclapham]

So much bitterness in this thread.

There are greedy people everywhere who'll screw you for whatever they can anyway they can...... not so much bitterness but cynical they may be.... another foreigner has passed away under dubious circumstances RIP ...... time to move on me thinks to safer waters!!!

[edwardmoulton]

I have been watching this thread for a while and I now just have to add my opinion. It is just my opinion so shoot me down if you wish.

I am a 45 year old and a trained psychologist who has been here for a few years but I am still learning...

The things that hit me every time in stories like this (too common I fear now) are three fold:

the tragedy - I feel so much for the brutality of the case. He is dead, a child witnessed it and there are parents and family who need to grieve...

the lies - ALL Thais lie and steal and believe it is acceptable despite their Buddhist faith, in a way we westerners could not even comprehend. They are amoral - that is to say that all is ok as long as you do not get caught doing it...

the face thing - finally and most important of all - FACE - getting caught, looking stupid etc. All Asia suffers form this but Thailand is very bad. IN the west a child or adolescent is taught that it does not matter to be wrong, stupid or to be found out. We are taught to forgive. Along with all the other shortcomings in the education and parenting systems here, the product of Thailand are lovely people until they are confronted, angry or shamed, then they behave like children.

Officially, Thailand has one of the lowest IQs in the world and certainly the lowest if you correlate economic advantage and faclities against it. The people mean well but they are in the true sense of the word, primitive. There is a complete lack of emotional development which is so clear after a few cnversations.

Gentlemen, we are dealing with children with often a very poor social adjustment wthat makes crime seem ok, yet with grown up toys such as guns so beware...

Just my thoughts... The adult bodies and the warm smiles hide the broken hearts and pent up anger of disfunctional children that never grew up and that is the bulk of the Thai population. This explains many things including the attraction of the girls to many farang guys and why not? The Lolita complex is real and very strong and very attractive but it has a scary other side.

I write this out of respect for the situation but to point out that so much speculation here assumes adult behaviour which Thais are simply rarely capable of. Does this help to understand this and msot Thai behaviour?

[edwardmoulton]

As a corollary to the last post, for anyone who is not sure about Thai society, watch the Thai soaps each that play each night. These soap operas have different characters and scenes (slightly) but always the same plots...

It has been said that daily TV reflects a nation and how true in this case.

All you will see is deceit, anger, loss of face then revenge.... They are ALL the same basic plot.

You do not need to even understand the language to see the way they tug on the innate emotions of Thais with the shouting, slapping and fighting linked to emotional music of unrequited love - and that is only the girls fighting!

[cognos]

I have been watching this thread for a while and I now just have to add my opinion. It is just my opinion so shoot me down if you wish.

I am a 45 year old and a trained psychologist who has been here for a few years but I am still learning...

The things that hit me every time in stories like this (too common I fear now) are three fold:

the tragedy - I feel so much for the brutality of the case. He is dead, a child witnessed it and there are parents and family who need to grieve...

the lies - ALL Thais lie and steal and believe it is acceptable despite their Buddhist faith, in a way we westerners could not even comprehend. They are amoral - that is to say that all is ok as long as you do not get caught doing it...

the face thing - finally and most important of all - FACE - getting caught, looking stupid etc. All Asia suffers form this but Thailand is very bad. IN the west a child or adolescent is taught that it does not matter to be wrong, stupid or to be found out. We are taught to forgive. Along with all the other shortcomings in the education and parenting systems here, the product of Thailand are lovely people until they are confronted, angry or shamed, then they behave like children.

Officially, Thailand has one of the lowest IQs in the world and certainly the lowest if you correlate economic advantage and faclities against it. The people mean well but they are in the true sense of the word, primitive. There is a complete lack of emotional development which is so clear after a few cnversations.

Gentlemen, we are dealing with children with often a very poor social adjustment wthat makes crime seem ok, yet with grown up toys such as guns so beware...

Just my thoughts... The adult bodies and the warm smiles hide the broken hearts and pent up anger of disfunctional children that never grew up and that is the bulk of the Thai population. This explains many things including the attraction of the girls to many farang guys and why not? The Lolita complex is real and very strong and very attractive but it has a scary other side.

I write this out of respect for the situation but to point out that so much speculation here assumes adult behaviour which Thais are simply rarely capable of. Does this help to understand this and msot Thai behaviour?

You make some decent points,however you say all Thais lie and steal and are all amoral,neither with or without morals,with very low IQs?On what basis do you paint all Thais with such a damning indictment? I assume you draw those conclusions from normal bias formed from observations of Thai people over a long period.In a country of over 65 million people,I assure you your sample is too small.There are Thais who do not steal or lie.Anybody could,for example find some monks in Thailand who do not lie and steal,like the one who is 116 years old.Thaksin may have lied and stolen,but he probably has a high IQ.I do agree with you somewhat about the soap operas,however the Thai soap operas are way more entertaining in my opinion than the American ones.Both are way over the top and speak to dysfunctional societies.Name me a functional one.Yours? Despite the recent positive injection of Obama,America is no shining beacon of morality with which to use like a club of authority and a fount of knowledge to lord it over places like Thailand.If I needed the expertise of a "trained psychologist" I would take a pass on you .

[sriracha john]

I am a 45 year old and a trained psychologist

ALL Thais lie and steal and believe it is acceptable

a trained psychologist you say...

[taxexile]

the face thing - finally and most important of all - FACE - getting caught, looking stupid etc. All Asia suffers form this but Thailand is very bad. IN the west a child or adolescent is taught that it does not matter to be wrong, stupid or to be found out. We are taught to forgive. Along with all the other shortcomings in the education and parenting systems here, the product of Thailand are lovely people until they are confronted, angry or shamed, then they behave like children.

Officially, Thailand has one of the lowest IQs in the world and certainly the lowest if you correlate economic advantage and faclities against it. The people mean well but they are in the true sense of the word, primitive. There is a complete lack of emotional development which is so clear after a few cnversations.

Gentlemen, we are dealing with children with often a very poor social adjustment wthat makes crime seem ok, yet with grown up toys such as guns so beware...

Just my thoughts... The adult bodies and the warm smiles hide the broken hearts and pent up anger of disfunctional children that never grew up and that is the bulk of the Thai population. This explains many things including the attraction of the girls to many farang guys and why not? The Lolita complex is real and very strong and very attractive but it has a scary other side.

I write this out of respect for the situation but to point out that so much speculation here assumes adult behaviour which Thais are simply rarely capable of. Does this help to understand this and msot Thai behaviour?

very true.

a couple of years ago my brother in law fell out with his wife , it was a normal marriage breakdown , both sides had silly little grievances that on their own didnt amount to much but the sum total of them festering away for a year or so eventually led to an acrimonious split with his wife taking the son and going off to live with a new lover. this brought shame and disrespect on the cuckolded brother in law ,a lovely gentle kind hearted guy who for those very reasons has had no luck with the women he has gone for , and a general loss of face to the family in general , an intolerable situation.

at one of the family pow wows held to discuss this break up it was suggested that the errant wife should meet with an accident , get hit by a car as she left work or something , this was actually mulled over for a while before a couple of the more sensible members of the family vetoed the idea. if all the family had agreed with the idea , then it would most certainly have been carried out. what shocked me was that this idea was considered as an acceptable thing to do , and my in laws are not uneducated lowlifes living in a hut drinking booze all day. these are educated middle class respectable thais leading an honest and upstanding life.

as i say , the idea was shelved , but my eyes were opened just a bit wider to how disagreements and loss of face is dealt with here.

[grantbkk]

I have been watching this thread for a while and I now just have to add my opinion. It is just my opinion so shoot me down if you wish.

I am a 45 year old and a trained psychologist who has been here for a few years but I am still learning...

The things that hit me every time in stories like this (too common I fear now) are three fold:

the tragedy - I feel so much for the brutality of the case. He is dead, a child witnessed it and there are parents and family who need to grieve...

the lies - ALL Thais lie and steal and believe it is acceptable despite their Buddhist faith, in a way we westerners could not even comprehend. They are amoral - that is to say that all is ok as long as you do not get caught doing it...

the face thing - finally and most important of all - FACE - getting caught, looking stupid etc. All Asia suffers form this but Thailand is very bad. IN the west a child or adolescent is taught that it does not matter to be wrong, stupid or to be found out. We are taught to forgive. Along with all the other shortcomings in the education and parenting systems here, the product of Thailand are lovely people until they are confronted, angry or shamed, then they behave like children.

Officially, Thailand has one of the lowest IQs in the world and certainly the lowest if you correlate economic advantage and faclities against it. The people mean well but they are in the true sense of the word, primitive. There is a complete lack of emotional development which is so clear after a few cnversations.

Gentlemen, we are dealing with children with often a very poor social adjustment wthat makes crime seem ok, yet with grown up toys such as guns so beware...

Just my thoughts... The adult bodies and the warm smiles hide the broken hearts and pent up anger of disfunctional children that never grew up and that is the bulk of the Thai population. This explains many things including the attraction of the girls to many farang guys and why not? The Lolita complex is real and very strong and very attractive but it has a scary other side.

I write this out of respect for the situation but to point out that so much speculation here assumes adult behaviour which Thais are simply rarely capable of. Does this help to understand this and msot Thai behaviour?

You make some decent points,however you say all Thais lie and steal and are all amoral,neither with or without morals,with very low IQs?On what basis do you paint all Thais with such a damning indictment? I assume you draw those conclusions from normal bias formed from observations of Thai people over a long period.In a country of over 65 million people,I assure you your sample is too small.There are Thais who do not steal or lie.Anybody could,for example find some monks in Thailand who do not lie and steal,like the one who is 116 years old.Thaksin may have lied and stolen,but he probably has a high IQ.I do agree with you somewhat about the soap operas,however the Thai soap operas are way more entertaining in my opinion than the American ones.Both are way over the top and speak to dysfunctional societies.Name me a functional one.Yours? Despite the recent positive injection of Obama,America is no shining beacon of morality with which to use like a club of authority and a fount of knowledge to lord it over places like Thailand.If I needed the expertise of a "trained psychologist" I would take a pass on you .

Dr. Moulton does make some good points but the blanket statement that all Thais lie and steal would seem unsupportable and impossible. With 65 or so million people there must be some honest ones.

Regarding the Thai IQ, a lot of research has been conducted in this area. Many factors need to be considered but the fact remains that the educational system in this somewhat developed country is a running joke around the world. One of Thaksin's grand programs from years past was to raise the average IQ ten full points to almost 100. Sadly, education was never a priority but just a soundbite. The national average IQ still probably floats around 88 and that is where the government likes to keep it. The Thai Smiles seem to be disappearing and I suspect there is a correlation between rising social awareness, education, rising IQ and those disappearing smiles.

Farang life is cheap and we live in one of the most crime ridden places on earth. Most of us will continue living or lives here but a "head in the sand" attitude regarding violent crime will eventually lead to disaster. Knowing your limitations and awareness of your surroundings is key to survival. I think if I moved from Thailand my Plan B would be Rio. Different country with similar crime problems.

R.I.P.

Edited February 22, 2009 by grantbkk

[JetsetBkk]

... his lucky 7777 numberplate...

RIP Degioanni.

Irrespective of why he was killed, the last thing anyone should do is advertise how much money they have. Driving around with this plate is like waving raw meat in front of a pride of lions.