Hypertension, Sodium And Thai Food

[buadhai]

The doc who signed my retirement visa health cert took the time to talk to me about my blood pressure which has always been an untreated 140/90. He says that's too high and that I should try to reduce it by reducing the sodium in my diet. (I'm 55, weigh 80 kilos and run 8K per day.) If I can't, I should go on meds, probably ACE inhibitors.

Based on my own impression and some Internet research I'm coming to the conclusion that the typical Thai diet, which I will be consuming, is way too high in sodium. Since I'll probably be consuming most meals out, I won't have much of a chance to try to reduce that.

Anyone out there with HBP successfully reduced it by lowering sodium intake while continuing to consume mostly Thai-food?

My inclination is to just go on the meds and eat (mostly) what I like.

As it is, I don't season my food with salt or fish sauce (much) and don't consume foods (like preserved meats) that are high in sodium.

I just can't see giving up things like som tom, curries and gkuay dtiow....

[Phil Conners]

Actually 140/90 isn't particularly high. It's a little high and you should be able to correct it by a little less salt in your food and maybe just a little exercise, a long walk daily.

Try another quack, get a second opinion.

If you decide on meds know there are more than one type of meds that work on HBP, some have more side effects than others and different people react in different ways.

Can't help you with Thai food, hate the stuff so never eat it myself

[lopburi3]

If he is running 8k a day believe he has the exercise factor covered.

[Phil Conners]

I know that, but as I read his post that 8k run wasn't an option.

[HenryP]

I too suffer from a slightly high blood pressure, and hypertension. My bp is 138/90, I am 5'10", and weigh about 140 lbs. My weight is no problem, if anything I should add about 5 more pounds, but what concerns me is that I am only 28 years old, and have been either in school, or vacation my whole life. I have never had a real job, and so my life is pretty stress free. I would hate to see what's gonna happen to my bp once I start dealing with grown up issues.

I take xanax and a beta blocker to treat the hypertension/hbp, but alas... they dont seem to reduce the bp all that much. My father is 60 and his bp is 160/90 and so my condition could be genetics, or at least I assume it would play a substantial factor.

Although in CA, I play tennis 4x a week, it is too bloody hot to get any outdoor exercise in Bangkok, the tradeoff is that I tend to do a lot more walking in BKK then I ever do in the states.

As far as food is concerned, I would have to agree... THai people really love their NaCl. If you eat out, it will be a challenge to limit your salt intake since even if you request that they take it easy on the salt, it will still double (or more) the salt that you should be trying to stay at.

I am thinking about starting to meditate and/or do some yoga. Has anyone had any success using these techniques, would really love to hear.

[waldwolf]

A few links to information and publications re: high blood pressure:

Links:

What Is High Blood Pressure?

National Heart, Lung, Blood Institute (NIH)

Lowering High Blood Pressure (NIH)

Publications:

"Your Guide to Lowering Blood Pressure" (pdf)

"My Blood Pressure Wallet Card" (pdf)

Many factors can effect your blood pressure readings, therefore it is always wise to consult with your physician as to diet and medications.

[Phil Conners]

Interesting. I was of the impression that only the diastolic value was of real importance. I also though your weight and build (skinny/fat) was a factor. Live and learn

Edited January 20, 2005 by madsere

[pautai]

i think in general thai food is pretty bad for HBB , however they tend to use fish sauce rather than salt so whether there is too much salt content in that i am not sure .

its all cholestoral busting stuff on offer , especially the buffet breakfasts , the old heart attack special !

not much good dietary menus around .

[pautai]

do these HBB sufferers have bad gums ? dentists claim some sort of link between HBB and gum disease .

[Phil Conners]

What's HBB?

[waldwolf]

madsere - Medically, HBB (Hemoglobin, beta) refers to the HBB gene.

The HBB gene provides instructions for making a protein that is a component of hemoglobin. Hemoglobin is the protein carried inside red blood cells that transports oxygen through the body. Hemoglobin carries oxygen from the lungs to the rest of the body and then carries carbon dioxide from the body back to the lungs.

Mutations in the HBB gene can causes a number of diseases including Sickle Cell Anemia. A serious complication of sickle cell anemia is high blood pressure in the blood vessels that supply the lungs (pulmonary hypertension). Pulmonary hypertension occurs in about one-third of adults with sickle cell disease.

[Phil Conners]

IC. I though it was a typo of HBP - High Blood Pressure. Live and learn

So, assume your gums are fine and dandy, how do you know if you got HBB?

[waldwolf]

IC. I though it was a typo of HBP - High Blood Pressure. Live and learn

I believe your correct and the posters actually intended to write HBP.

.....how do you know if you got HBB?

You'd need a special blood test.

More info here HBB

[bangkokian]

Most Woody and floral essential oils can help bring blood pressure down--Be sure to go for steam distilled type and not absolutes.

[bartender100]

A body thats 55 years old,is not designed to run 8k a day.

Take it easy

[Khun Larry]

I can't imagine your BP going down in Thailand.

Very stressful place whether you know it or not.

[Jai Dee]

Most Woody and floral essential oils can help bring blood pressure down--Be sure to go for steam distilled type and not absolutes.

Where can you get these oils in Thailand bangkokian?

I note that you've posted similar suggestions on other health related threads.

I'd like to give it a go...

[Phil Conners]

Some people believe anything. Flower and snake oil, sheesh, why not just pray

Edited March 18, 2005 by madsere

[Jai Dee]

Some people believe anything.  Flower and snake oil, sheesh, why not just pray

Don't be so cynical madsere.

I've used oils in the past for various ailments, and most worked.

One which I would recommend for everyone is the massaging in of rose hip oil onto scar tissue... the scarring in some cases can completely disappear.

If bankokian has some ideas about how to lower your BP, then I for one am interested.

[Sheryl]

I too suffer from a slightly high blood pressure, and hypertension.  My bp is 138/90, I am 5'10", and weigh about 140 lbs.  My weight is no problem, if anything I should add about 5 more pounds, but what concerns me is that I am only 28 years old, and have been either in school, or vacation my whole life.  I have never had a real job, and so my life is pretty stress free.  I would hate to see what's gonna happen to my bp once I start dealing with grown up issues. 

I take xanax and a beta blocker to treat the hypertension/hbp, but alas... they dont seem to reduce the bp all that much.  My father is 60 and his bp is 160/90 and so my condition could be genetics, or at least I assume it would play a substantial factor.

Although in CA, I play tennis 4x a week, it is too bloody hot to get any outdoor exercise in Bangkok, the tradeoff is that I tend to do a lot more walking in BKK then I ever do in the states.

As far as food is concerned, I would have to agree... THai people really love their NaCl.  If you eat out, it will be a challenge to limit your salt intake since even if you request that they take it easy on the salt, it will still double (or more) the salt that you should be trying to stay at.   

I am thinking about starting  to meditate and/or do some yoga.  Has anyone had any success using these techniques, would really love to hear.

Meditation is great for overall health and stress. Go to www.dhamma.org for general info on vipassana meditation, and click on meditation centers in South Asia then Thailand for info on regular courses in Thailand.

that said, if you have a genetic predisposition to hypertension, and if it does not appear to be stress related (you say your life now isn't very stressed), meditation may not make much difference in your BP (I still recommend it, though -- for overall physical & mental well-being). You should try a different medication. Beta blockers don't work for everyone and there are other classes of drugs available, e.g ACE inhibitors, calcium channel blockers etc. Best to do this under a doctor's supervision but if you are one of those folks set on self-prescribing you could start with enalapril, available over the counter in Thailand and inexpensive. You can get a patient hand-out explaining action and side effects at the website www.medscape.com, use the search function and click on drug search.

I suggest dropping the xanax since a) it's not helping you say you don't have a lot of stress c) the fewer meds one takers the better and d) it is potentially addictive. If you don't drop it altogether at least limit its use to when you really need it (feeling stressed out, insomnia etc).

[Sheryl]

The doc who signed my retirement visa health cert took the time to talk to me about my blood pressure which has always been an untreated 140/90. He says that's too high and that I should try to reduce it by reducing the sodium in my diet. (I'm 55, weigh 80 kilos and run 8K per day.) If I can't, I should go on meds, probably ACE inhibitors.

Based on my own impression and some Internet research I'm coming to the conclusion that the typical Thai diet, which I will be consuming, is way too high in sodium. Since I'll probably be consuming most meals out, I won't have much of a chance to try to reduce that.

Anyone out there with HBP successfully reduced it by lowering sodium intake while continuing to consume mostly Thai-food?

My inclination is to just go on the meds and eat (mostly) what I like.

As it is, I don't season my food with salt or fish sauce (much) and don't consume foods (like preserved meats) that are high in sodium.

I just can't see giving up things like som tom, curries and gkuay dtiow....

It's true the food is prepared with a lot of sodium, and you can't change that. But dropping all added salt and added fish sauce will help, since your BP is only mildly high I suggest you try that before going on meds. Weight and exercise already OK, and I assume you don't smoke (if you do, stop -- but I doubt you do if you can run 8km a day!). How is your stress level? If you think stress is a contributing factor consider meditation (see my other post on tha). And of course, continue to have your BP monitored regularly. If it goes up then meds become mandatory. (I'm a nurse)

[frenchFARANGbkk]

Also try to eat in restaurant with the 'NO MSG' sign. This shit is gonna kill us all!

[ProThaiExpat]

Age now is 70. At 28 elevated diastolic blood pressure, 90 was detected but no treatment suggested. During graduate school life insurance physical again spoke of my early onset of hypertension so I used connections and was admitted to a study of early onset hypertension at the University of California at San Francisco.

After a week of hospitalization, the conclusion was essential hyprtension, possibly due to high sodiom diet in childhood (Japan). Wore one of the first devices that recoded blood pressure readings every hour during my entire day. Only time the pressure was elevated was at the doctors office and when I was picking up my wife at the supermarket.

.

Ten years later, when the U.S. Veterans Administration study came out that seemed to conclusively prove over 3k subjects studied that early and agressive treatment of high blood pressure reduced the early onset of heart attacks, I began the whole regimen of diuretics, but ended up on a beta blocker that seemed to lower the pressure and gave me EKG waves to dream about, wonderful attenuated T waves.

Were on them for more than 20 years, but when I retired and moved to Hawaii, my pressure went to near normal. Keep in mind that blood pressure measured in a doctors office is, in most cases, higher than measured at home in a reclining position. Likewise make sure your arm being monitored is level with your heart.

It should be noted that my blood pressure was diastolic 80 or thereabouts when measuredI at rest or reclining.

Went off meds five years ago, and health cert doctors mention that my systolic is at 90 or 95 but when I measure it at home, and in the mornings when it is supposed to be at its highest, it is an acceptable below 90.

Cholesterol is also another medical bugaboo. Mine has been 220 for my whole

life. Too high say most. However, my HDL is 180 and my LDL is quite low, so through education I ignore their advice to treat it.

PS. No heart attacks in my family, all CVAs, probably because of high sodium diet in Japan.

In conclusion, my 40 years living with elevated blood pressure readings is:

1. Buy a blood a digital blood pressure machine.

2. Measure your pressure at least four times a day until you get an accurate chart of what your pressure is during the entire day and whether it is elevated during rest.

3. Research hypertension on the internet.

4. Depending on your age, ie. if your under 50 consider being more aggressive in treating than over 50.

5. Think twice before treating borderline elevated blood pressure, especially if low 90s diastolic, if your getting on in years.

5. No added salt diet is good for anyone, regadless if blood pressure is elevated.

6. I just measured mine after a year as a result of this thread. First reading 140/105. second reading 135/93, third reading 140/95.

For me with a lifetime of borderline elevated diastolic and easily 20 of the best cariologists evaluating and treating me, I am at 70, not worrying about my borderline elevated blood pressure.

I am fat now, compared to a lifetime of diet, exercise and hyperccondria, 100 kilo at 188 cm, with a sedentary lifestyle. Don't use reduced sodium salt , but no way am I on a no added salt diet. Eat mostly western food products including high sodium foods like ham, sausage, etc.

My choice at this point in my life is to forget about it, if I shorten my lifespan by a year as a result of high blood pressuer, at least I will have enjoyed my "golden" years doing what I like for a change.

It should not be forgotten that the hospitals, have gone from charity organizations to for profit business in my lifetime, so it is not surpirse that the med cert doctor at my western style hospital urged treating my hypertension in their newly established hypertension clinic.

PM me if you have any specific questions.

[buadhai]

I'm age 55 and have been on 7.5 mg of Moexipril for about four months now. Previously, BP was marginal. Public health nurses came around the other day (in Korat) and measured mine at 130/80, which is fine by me.

Since the meds were prescribed I have retired and moved to LOS. I'm thinking of ditching the meds for a while to see what it is now. Of course, my stress level is way down, I've lost some weight and am continuing to run 8-10K a day, swim, weight training, etc. As far as diet goes, I'm just eating whatever shows up and am making no attempt to reduce salt or MSG. Oh, yeah, I've cut the beer consumption down to two or three a day!

[Gary A]

I'm now 60. My blood pressure had always been what they then called a normal high 150/92. Several years ago I had a stroke and was told my high blood pressure more than likely caused it. The US doctor had me on several different drugs. None of which were effective and I felt like walking death all the time. When I moved over here a friend of mine took me to his doctor at Bangkok Pattaya hospital. The doctor quizzed me and wanted to see what I was taking. He took a look and just shook his head, whatever that meant? The bottom line is that he told me to throw them all away and told me to take Enaril and a baby aspirin every day. They are 20mg ACE inhibitors and are made in Thailand. Within a couple days I felt like a new man and my blood pressure is under control at about 135/80. I pay 300 baht for a box of 100 foil wrapped tablets. Recently I bought a box at a drugstore on Soi Chaiyapruk in Jomtien and was surprised that the price was 250 baht but the guy ordered them for me.

[Thaiquila]

Have had BP issue since my 20's, sometimes borderline and not treated, but have treated now for several years (now 48).

I hated the side effects from all meds except the one I am on now: LISINOPRIL.

I recommend asking your doctor about it. Apparantly, diuretics have proven the cheapest and also effective, but I could not stand the side effects. My doctor in the US said Lisinopril also has a heart strengthening effect in addition to the bp benefits, and frankly, I have noticed no bad side effects from it. I can get a month's supply in Thailand for 500 baht at most any pharmacy.

If you are of a certain age with bp, I also agree it makes perfect sense to take a low dose aspirin daily, especially if you are male.

Also note, not everyone is sodium sensitive! Not by a long shot.

If you are borderline, you could attempt a low sodium diet for few months and see if there is a difference.

So some people are suffering through bland diets for nothing.

It also helps to eat lots of potasium, i.e. bananas.

http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/1345.html

Edited April 21, 2005 by Thaiquila

[buadhai]

Enaril and a baby aspirin every day. They are 20mg ACE inhibitors

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Moexipril that I'm taking is also an angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitor.

[ProThaiExpat]

Potassium supplements are only necessary if you are on diaretics.

When I asked my cardiologists why I had to take potassium powder in a

glass three times a day when others were on bananas, his reply was:

"Your hands would be dragging on the ground if you ate enough bananas to supplement your potassium depletion due to diuretics".

Just checked my BP at 1:00pm and it was 146/82. Feet up in my lazy boy reading posts. See my prior post for morning readings.

[ayakiawe]

http://www.spofamerica.com/

SLOW POISONING OF AMERICA [and CANADA] (and most of all Thailand and the rest of Asia)

I wondered if there could be an actual chemical causing the massive obesity epidemic, so did a friend of mine, John Erb.

He was a research assistant at the University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada and spent years working for the government.

He made an amazing discovery while going through scientific journals for a book he was writing called The Slow Poisoning of America. In hundreds of studies around the world, scientists were creating obese mice and rats to use in diet or diabetes test studies.

No strain of rat or mice is naturally obese, so the scientists have to create them. They make these morbidly obese creatures by injecting them with MSG when they are first born. The MSG triples the amount of insulin the pancreas creates, causing rats (and humans?) to become obese they even have a title for the race of fat rodents they create: "MSG-Treated Rats" MSG?

I was shocked too. I went to my kitchen, checking the cupboards and the fridge. MSG was in everything! The Campbell's soups, the Hostess Doritos, the Lays flavored potato chips, Top Ramen, Betty Crocker Hamburger Helper, Heinz canned gravy, Swanson frozen prepared meals, Kraft salad dressings, especially the 'healthy low fat' ones. The items that didn't have MSG had something called Hydrolyzed Vegetable Protein, which is just another name for Monosodium Glutamate. It was shocking to see just how many of the foods we feed our children everyday are filled with this stuff. They hide MSG under many different names in order to fool those who catch on.

But it didn't stop there. When our family went out to eat, we started asking at the restaurants what menu items had MSG. Many employees, even the managers, swore they didn't use MSG. But when we ask for the ingredient list which they grudgingly provided, sure enough MSG and Hydrolyzed Vegetable Protein were everywhere. Burger King, McDonalds, Wendy's, Taco Bell, every restaurant, even the sit down ones like TGIF, Chilis', Applebees and Denny's use MSG in abundance. Kentucky Fried Chicken seemed to be the WORST offender: MSG as in every chicken dish, salad dressing and gravy. No wonder I loved to eat that coating on the skin, their secret spice was MSG!

So why is MSG in so may of the foods we eat? Is it a preservative or a vitamin? Not according to my friend John. In the book he wrote, an expose of the food additive industry called The Slow Poisoning of America, www.spofamerica.com , he said that MSG is added to food for the addictive effect it has on the human body. Even the propaganda website sponsored by the food manufacturers lobby group supporting MSG at: http://www.msgfacts.com/facts/msgfact12.html explains that the reason they add it to food is to make people eat more.

A study of elderly people showed that people eat more of the foods that it is added to. The Glutamate Association lobby group says eating more benefits the elderly, but what does it do to the rest of us?

'Betcha can't eat just one', takes on a whole new meaning where MSG is concerned! And we wonder why the nation is overweight?

The MSG manufacturers themselves admit that it addicts people to their products. It makes people choose their product over others, and makes people eat more of it than they would if MSG wasn't added. Not only is MSG scientifically proven to cause obesity, it is an addictive substance!

Since its introduction into the American food supply fifty years ago, MSG has been added in larger and larger doses to the prepackaged meals, soups, snacks and fast foods we are tempted to eat everyday.

The FDA has set no limits on how much of it can be added to food. They claim it's safe to eat in any amount. How can they claim it is safe when there are hundreds of scientific studies with titles like these?

The monosodium glutamate (MSG) obese rat as a model for the study of exercise in obesity. Gobatto CA, Mello MA, Souza CT, Ribeiro IA. Res Commun Mol Pathol Pharmacol. 2002

Adrenalectomy abolishes the food-induced hypothalamic serotonin release in both normal and monosodium glutamate-obese rats. Guimaraes RB, Telles MM, Coelho VB, Mori RC, Nascimento CM, Ribeiro Brain Res Bull. 2002 Aug

Obesity induced by neonatal monosodium glutamate treatment in spontaneously hypertensive rats: an animal model of multiple risk factors. Yamamoto M, Iino K, Ichikawa K, Shinohara N, Yoshinari Fujishima Hypertens Res. 1998 Mar

Hypothalamic lesion induced by injection of monosodium glutamate in suckling period and subsequent development of obesity. Tanaka K, Shimada M, Nakao K, Kusunoki Exp Neurol. 1978 Oct

Yes, that last study was not a typo, it WAS written in 1978.

Both the medical research community and food "manufacturers" have known MSG's side effects for decades! Many more studies mentioned in John Erb's book link MSG to Diabetes, Migraines and headaches, Autism, ADHD and even Alzheimer's. But what can we do to stop the food manufactures from dumping fattening and addictive MSG into our food supply and causing the obesity epidemic we now see? Even as you read this, George W. Bush and his corporate supporters are pushing a Bill through Congress. Called the "Personal Responsibility in Food Consumption Act" also known as the "Cheeseburger Bill " this sweeping law bans anyone from suing food manufacturers, sellers and distributors. Even if it comes out that they purposely added an addictive chemical to their foods. Read about it for yourself at: http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/8458081.htm

"Last month the House of Representatives passed the "Personal Responsibility in Food Consumption Act" to protect the food and beverage industry from civil lawsuits. Under the measure, known as the "Cheeseburger Bill," people who buy food or drinks couldn't sue the companies that made them, the stores that sold them or the restaurants that served them if they got fat from the products, so long as the products met existing laws. The Senate is expected to take up a similar bill later this year."

The Bill has already been rushed through the House of Representatives, and is due for the same rubber stamp at Senate level. It is important that Bush and his corporate supporters get it through before the media lets everyone know about MSG, the intentional Nicotine for food.

Several months ago, John Erb took his book and his concerns to one of the highest government health officials in Canada. While sitting in the Government office, the official told him "Sure I know how bad MSG is, I wouldn't touch the stuff!" But this top-level government official refused to tell the public what he knew. The big media doesn't want to tell the public either, fearing legal issues with their advertisers. It seems that the fallout on the fast food industry may hurt their profit margin.

So what do we do? The food producers and restaurants have been addicting us to their products for years, and now we are paying the price for it. Our children should not be cursed with obesity caused by an addictive food additive. But what can I do about it? I'm just one voice, what can I do to stop the poisoning of our children, while guys like Bush are insuring financial protection for the industry that is poisoning us.

I for one am doing something about it. I am sending this email out to everyone I know in an attempt to show you the truth that the corporate owned politicians and media won't tell you. The best way you can help save yourself and your children from this drug-induced epidemic, is to forward this email to everyone. With any luck, it will circle the globe before Bush can pass the Bill protecting those who poisoned us. The food industry learned a lot from the tobacco industry. Imagine if big tobacco had a bill like this in place before someone blew the whistle on Nicotine? Blow the whistle on MSG. If you are one of the few who can still believe that MSG is good for us, and you don't believe what John Erb has to say, see for yourself. Go to the National Library of Medicine, at www.pubmed.com. Type in the words "MSG Obese", and read a few of the 115 medical studies that appear.

We do not want to be rats in one giant experiment, and we do not approve of food that makes us into a nation of obese, lethargic, addicted sheep, waiting for the slaughter. With your help we can put an end to this, and stop the Slow Poisoning of America.

Let's save our children says (John Erb) ...

Holding you in your highest; honoring you where you are;

and inspiring you to go beyond!

In the Oneness of Awakening

Marcela

If you are not currently receiving my daily letters

"Spirit and Love",

and would like to, please request it at

[email protected]

[ayakiawe]

Its amazing how so many people just love talking about all the toxic chemical drugs they take for their “health”!

That’s right, you sound like a bunch of drug addicts.

Drugs come from a “drug store” a friend once told me.

I wouldn’t take any of the drugs you are talking about. Why don’t you figure it out, its most likely your diet that is killing you and the drugs only make more problems in the end.

But if you stopped this nonsense what would you have to write/ talk about?

Try aloe vera juice, fresh in the morning and real organic fresh RAW coconut oil or the milk (not cooked).

If you can’t find this PM me and I will help you find it.

We are talking about real nutrition which most people don’t have a clue about!