I'm Not Gay But...

[Ijustwannateach]

In various Asian countries I've come across the phenomenon of homosexuality as a *behavior* rather than an *identity*. For example, though a man may have sex with another man, he still views himself somehow as "straight" or "not gay." This is usually rationalized by explaining either that they are not crossdressers/ effeminate/ queeny acting, or by their being consistently the active partner in sex (or "top").

As an example, once I spent a good 15 minutes talking with a Filipino guy about his exploits with other guys in one of the southern cities... as a conversational gambit I then asked him how old he was when he knew he was gay... "Oh, I'm not gay!"

I think a good bit of this goes on here in Thailand- in the sense that I see a lot of casual homoerotic activity [more than just friendly, too] going on among Thai men which doesn't always apparently get attached to a gay identity. I have heard that the concept of gay here used to be tied up in the "king-kathoey/queen" dichotomy, where the "king" was the active or "top" partner, and the "kathoey/queen" would be the passive... however, I have also read (and observed) that this distinction isn't as important as it apparently once was in Thai gay culture.

My ex- has a bit of an identity problem here- in that he feels odd being gay while not being particularly effeminate. He says that his life would be easier if he was queenier, because everyone he knows would already understand about him rather than him having to "come out" to anyone or else lead a secret life.

Have you guys seen any evidence in your time here of this non-identifying attitude towards homosexual behavior? I imagine it might be one of the important reasons there is so little violent homophobia here, compared to the States, say.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

In northern Thailand, two Thai gay men told me in 2003 that they understood four classifications of gay men (one was age 36, the other 22 at the time):

King - top

Queen - bottom

Both - versatile

Bisexual - males and females

The distinction you mentioned from the Philipines, Steven, is typical in Latin America. No top considers himself to be homo, gay or 'mariposa' or 'maricon' simply for being on top.

I was having drinks in Isla Mujeres with a Guatemalan-American who emigrated to Michigan before puberty. He didn't realize that the more recently immigrated Guatematecos were making penetrating trips to the neighborhood queens. We had this conversation with his 22 year old straight daughter!

[ProThaiExpat]

I think you have hit on a good point IJWT: I agree that it is the lack of interest in "identifying" behavior to a "type", but I also wonder how much of it is not being in a Christian-Judean culture.

The homophobia prevalent in Christian-Juedean cultures makes it a "big deal" to be gay or to have same-sex sex. How much pure innocent experimentation is "identified" and "labeled" in Christian-Judean cultures, while in Thailand, men can have sex with each other, "no big deal". I have had more than one "lover" tell me I was not gay because I don't particularily enjoy giving fellatio and look upon receiving it as foreplay. I don't agree with that assessment, but what is in a label?

I have always had a problem with the term "gay lifestyle". I think my "lifestyle" is the same as my straight neighbor's except his mate is a woman and mine is a man. In all other respects, our lifestyles and interests are much the same. If having a same-sex mate makes one into "living a gay lifestyle" so be it, however, I don't ascribe to that label. I think my neighbor would wonder if I referred to his "lifestyle" as straight. To him and to me, we are just living our lives.

I think Thais identify the "gay lifestye" with Katoeys and the way they act in public. I think it is more accurate to refer to them as living an "effeminate" lifestyle, however, such a label seems strange when referring to women in the same way.

The overall positive acceptance of two men in a committed relationship in Thailand is a blessing I ascribe to their buddhist heritage. Those in the upper classes that are not so accepting are victims of their exposure to western ways, particulary those who are of a Christian faith.

I hope Thais never change in this respect as they become more and more westernized. They have no cultural reversing to do, as western cultures do, relative to this issue. Northern European countries are the leaders in this trend, with Spain an unbelievable anomoly for a Catholic county. Canada is following the rule of law down the path to equality and ultimate acceptance and probably so will the U.S., once the courts get a chance to show the way.

Investigators have identified the origin of homophobia to have been at a time, just before the birth of Christ, in the tribes of Judea only. Other cultures, before and after them ,were not homophobic and it wasn't until the Roman Empire was "chrisitanized" that homophobia took root in that culture as well.

Thus is it any wonder that homophobia is rampant in "Christian" countries and certainly more virulent in the Christian religious right.

[PeaceBlondie]

.....

I have always had a problem  with the term "gay lifestyle".  I think my "lifestyle" is the same as my straight neighbor's except his mate is a woman and mine is a man. .....

I think Thais identify the "gay lifestye" with Katoeys and the way they act in public. I think it is more accurate to refer to them as living an "effeminate" lifestyle, however, such a label seems strange when referring to women in the same way.

....Investigators have identified the origin of homophobia to have been at a time, just before the birth of Christ, in the tribes of Judea only.  Other cultures, before and after them ,were not homophobic and it wasn't until the Roman Empire was  "chrisitanized" that  homophobia took root in that culture as well.

Thus is it any wonder that homophobia is rampant in "Christian" countries and certainly more virulent in the Christian religious right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lots of good points there. Come to think of it, women tend to be effeminate, except those that tend to be emmasculinate.

On the origin of homophobia, they'd be dating the Law of Moses to about 50 BC instead of 1050 BC or 1500 BC to make that claim. It's ingrained in Judaism because of those early scriptures, and yet modern Judaism doesn't follow that portion of the Law of Moses as strictly as most of the fundamentalist Christians. And the Law of Moses, homophobia or not, doesn't apply to Christians!

[JemJem]

Good issue to discuss....

Well.....it is a matter of 'definitions', 'labels' but also 'feelings' of course.

If a guy has sex with mostly women but also occasionally has sex with men (and is a 'top') and he does not see himself as 'gay', that is up to him. Some people might say 'Oh...he is a closet case'...' Oh....he is in denial'....'Oh...he should accept he is bisexual'. I myself would say he is bi. However, according to him, 'gay'='someone who only sleeps with men and is always a bottom' and so by his perception of the term, he does not see himself as gay.

There was a thread about sexual labels in this section...it was a great discussion there....anyway I think sexuality is a fascination subject to discuss.

As for your ex, Steven....I guess he's got a good point.......for katoeys and other effeminate gays, in many aspects, 'acceptance' by the society is much much smoother than it is for non-effeminate gays....well in Thailand anyway.

By the way, effeminacy can also be a very interesting subject to discuss...maybe

I'll start a thread on that sometime in the future

Cheers,

Jem

Edited January 14, 2005 by JemJem

[The_Eye_Of_Sauron]

Intriguing that you should use the word 'phenomenon'....as phenomenalism is...

<< Hold on to your hats boys !!! >>

...a belief associated with Kant (author of 'A Critique of Pure Reason'), that we can know only appearances - 'Phenomena' and never what is ultimately real - 'noumena'.

The mind having the ability to sort out sense data and provide relationships that hold among them.

Phew !

So IJWT's quote....

In various Asian countries I've come across the phenomenon of homosexuality as a *behavior* rather than an *identity*.

By deconstructing this quote, we see that he is (perhaps unwittingly) agreeing then with Asians that sexuality is an appearance, rather than the reality.

Confused? Just wait till we start discussing Jacques Derrida and the Deconstruction movement.

[ChrisP]

^^ I think there's another Forum on TVisa for that...

ChrisP

[wowpow]

Two favourites:

One is a twist but often true in S E Asia " I am gay but my boyfriend is not"

I am a perfect homosexual - I have never been near a vagina! I was even born Caesarean.

My take on this is that your sexuality is in your heart, mind and libido. Some people are 100% homosexual and some are 100% heterosexual but the vast majority are somewhere inbetween and this position is often affected by experience and education.

These days sexuality and lifestyle seem to have become confused. Living like a Grand Queen in a gay Ghetto would be a gay lifestyle but living as a normal straight who's partner happens to be male would not?

[Ijustwannateach]

Dino-saur, you don't have to "deconstruct" my remarks to get my opinions from them. I'll give them freely if you ask. Deconstruction is dead and so is Derrida.

Frankly, I consider sexuality to be largely constructed- however, it is also pretty clear that in many cases the construction is not changeable or flexible. A working model of sexuality must take both the variety and the relatively inflexible nature of orientations into account. One physical system that could provide analogies is the eyesight of mammals; while the hardware (the eyes and the nerves) are provided through birth and early development, the software (nerve control and visual recognition) *must* be acquired through natal use of the eyes during a certain period after birth- after a certain point that area of the brain can no longer develop and even if the eyes are medically perfect vision is no longer possible (unfortunately, I believe they tested this by blindfolding a group of kittens through the first few months of their life).

I would suppose from the evidence that sexuality must be constructed from a combination of environmental and genetic factors, and then at some point fixed in place or impressed. There *are* more flexible individuals, and sexual tastes do seem to drift and change for some, but overwhelming reported evidence seems to support that sexuality is more often fixed than not.

"Steven"