Police Raid Prachatai News Online Office

[dee123]

Abhisit has now apparently recognised that LM laws are being used in a over zealous manner.Whether he has the courage or mandate to adjust LM laws we will have to wait and see.Another interesting LM accusation was filed by police Lt.Col.Wattanasak Mungkandee(Who can not read English) against BBC correspondent Jonathan Head,(Reporters Without Borders recent article about press freedom ).The article went on to say "A source close to the case,said the complaint had been made maliciously on the part of a former British journalist who works closely with Lieut-Col.Wattanasak Mungkandee".......Does anyone know the name of this "journalist"?

Edited March 8, 2009 by dee123

[henryalleman]

This is again a proof that Thailand is not an democracy. Further comment is not given because I don't like to get jailed.

Lucky I use an alias and a program protect my IP address

[sabaijai]

Police arrest Web director of Prachatai for lese majeste

Published on March 7, 2009

Crime Suppression police yesterday raided the office of non-profit online newspaper Prachatai, accusing its Web director of violating the Computer Act by posting lese-majeste comments.

Web director Chiranuch Premchaiporn was arrested on a charge of committing a computer crime, because she allowed the offending comments to be posted on Prachatai's Web board.

The website said Chiranuch denied the allegation and would agree to be interrogated only in front of her lawyer.

Five police officers arrived at the office late yesterday afternoon to conduct a search. They confiscated Chiranuch's computer.

The Web director has a duty to monitor all comments on the website and delete any improper ones. Prachatai consistently censors improper or rude comments on its website and Web board.

Police said the offending comments had been left on the on the Web board for 20 days.

A Prachatai official said police and the Information and Communications Technology Ministry always issued a warning when such comments were found on the website but that there had been no warning this time.

The official said there was no clear criteria for judging what kind of comments and content on the Web might be deemed to constitute lese majeste. Police did not show the posted comments in question.

Violators of the Computer Act are liable to not more than five years in jail and/or a fine of not more than Bt100,000.

The authorities have launched a crackdown on websites accused of posting lese-majeste content. Many websites based inside and outside the country have been blocked.

A dozen individuals have been arrested on lese-majeste charges recently, such as former PM's office minister Jakrapob Penkair, social critic Sulak Sivaraksa and Australian English teacher Harry Nicolaides. Some who have been arrested under the Computer Act include reporter Suwicha Thakhor and Chiranuch.

A group of 50 international academics called on the government to reform the Lese Majeste Act and release all detainees charged under it.

Supinya Klangnarong, a media activist representing a network of Internet users, said the arrest could sow fear among the media and Internet users. Police should have asked the Web director to explain herself.

She said police were only trying to curry favour with Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva after his speech stressing libel laws.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/03/07...cs_30097350.php

Erroneous headline and story. The arrest had nothing to do with lese majeste and the Computer Act contains no clause referencing lese majeste in the first place.

[dee123]

Police arrest Web director of Prachatai for lese majeste

Published on March 7, 2009

Crime Suppression police yesterday raided the office of non-profit online newspaper Prachatai, accusing its Web director of violating the Computer Act by posting lese-majeste comments.

Web director Chiranuch Premchaiporn was arrested on a charge of committing a computer crime, because she allowed the offending comments to be posted on Prachatai's Web board.

The website said Chiranuch denied the allegation and would agree to be interrogated only in front of her lawyer.

Five police officers arrived at the office late yesterday afternoon to conduct a search. They confiscated Chiranuch's computer.

The Web director has a duty to monitor all comments on the website and delete any improper ones. Prachatai consistently censors improper or rude comments on its website and Web board.

Police said the offending comments had been left on the on the Web board for 20 days.

A Prachatai official said police and the Information and Communications Technology Ministry always issued a warning when such comments were found on the website but that there had been no warning this time.

The official said there was no clear criteria for judging what kind of comments and content on the Web might be deemed to constitute lese majeste. Police did not show the posted comments in question.

Violators of the Computer Act are liable to not more than five years in jail and/or a fine of not more than Bt100,000.

The authorities have launched a crackdown on websites accused of posting lese-majeste content. Many websites based inside and outside the country have been blocked.

A dozen individuals have been arrested on lese-majeste charges recently, such as former PM's office minister Jakrapob Penkair, social critic Sulak Sivaraksa and Australian English teacher Harry Nicolaides. Some who have been arrested under the Computer Act include reporter Suwicha Thakhor and Chiranuch.

A group of 50 international academics called on the government to reform the Lese Majeste Act and release all detainees charged under it.

Supinya Klangnarong, a media activist representing a network of Internet users, said the arrest could sow fear among the media and Internet users. Police should have asked the Web director to explain herself.

She said police were only trying to curry favour with Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva after his speech stressing libel laws.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/03/07...cs_30097350.php

Erroneous headline and story. The arrest had nothing to do with lese majeste and the Computer Act contains no clause referencing lese majeste in the first place.

so what charge was used to enable the arrest? it is all a bit confusing again!

Edited March 8, 2009 by dee123

[G54]

I guess some of us had best be very careful about what we post.

Agreed.

[cclub75]

The article went on to say "A source close to the case,said the complaint had been made maliciously on the part of a former British journalist who works closely with Lieut-Col.Wattanasak Mungkandee".......Does anyone know the name of this "journalist"?

Yes. In the Jakrapob case and J.Head case, both filled by the police officer, he was helped by... a british citizen

Everything is there :

http://thaicrisis.wordpress.com/2008/06/09...e-majeste-case/

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2008/06/...jeste-team.html

TC is right : Lenine called this kind of people : the useful idiots.

It's important to note that... actually the lunatic serial "officer" filled... 3 complaints against J.Head ! Three !

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2008/12/...nt-against.html

The fact that no one stops this "officer" is the proof that the establishment supports his crusade.

I mean one complaint, why not, a mistake, no problem, a phone call can solve the issue. But 2 ? But 3 ? It's a vendetta or a campaign of intimidation against the western media.

I mean the BBC is not exactly a small newspaper printed by students... It's a major international media. So why Thailand lets the "officer" playing like this ?

It doesn't make any sense. Unless... again... this is a campaign.

We are still waiting for Abhisit reaction. Oxford educated blablabla, he should have an opinion about the BBC work, right ?

Edited November 21, 2010 by sbk

[dee123]

The article went on to say "A source close to the case,said the complaint had been made maliciously on the part of a former British journalist who works closely with Lieut-Col.Wattanasak Mungkandee".......Does anyone know the name of this "journalist"?

Yes. In the Jakrapob case and J.Head case, both filled by the police officer, he was helped by... a british citizen

Everything is there :

http://thaicrisis.wordpress.com/2008/06/09...e-majeste-case/

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2008/06/...jeste-team.html

TC is right : Lenine called this kind of people : the useful idiots.

It's important to note that... actually the lunatic serial "officer" filled... 3 complaints against J.Head ! Three !

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2008/12/...nt-against.html

The fact that no one stops this "officer" is the proof that the establishment supports his crusade.

I mean one complaint, why not, a mistake, no problem, a phone call can solve the issue. But 2 ? But 3 ? It's a vendetta or a campaign of intimidation against the western media.

I mean the BBC is not exactly a small newspaper printed by students... It's a major international media. So why Thailand lets the "officer" playing like this ?

It doesn't make any sense. Unless... again... this is a campaign.

We are still waiting for Abhisit reaction. Oxford educated blablabla, he should have an opinion about the BBC work, right ?

The plot thickens!

[justanothercybertosser]

The plot thickens!

The plot is a lot thicker.

Expect more of that coming.

[justanothercybertosser]

Erroneous headline and story. The arrest had nothing to do with lese majeste and the Computer Act contains no clause referencing lese majeste in the first place.

No, you are wrong.

She was charged under Article 15, that says:

Article 15. Any service provider intentionally supporting or consenting to an offence under Section 14 within a computer system under their control shall be subject to the same penalty as that imposed upon a person committing an offence under Section 14.

The relevant part of article 14:

(3) that involves import to a computer system of any computer data related with an offence against the Kingdom's security under the Criminal Code;

The case was about comments deemed lese majeste that were left too long on the prachathai forum.

Lese majeste laws are now right back were they were brought under Sarit, as integral part of national security. Read up the definition of the monarchy in terms of national security, and the comments of the justice minister on this issue, both while he was shadow minister in the opposition, and after he was appointed minister.

The Comuputer Act gives the authorities wide reaching powers given the fluffy definition of national security, or what the government or ISOC deems as an offense against national security.

Abhisit may say whatever he want in English to an English speaking audience. It sounds good, and is aimed at strengthening investor confidence and tourism. More important though is what he and especially his deputy prime minister Suthep, who also oversees national security, say in Thai to the Thai population. That often is the exact opposite than what is said to Farang.

[Koo82]

More important though is what he and especially his deputy prime minister Suthep, who also oversees national security, say in Thai to the Thai population. That often is the exact opposite than what is said to Farang.

Don't get me started to comment about what these people say to Thais and to Thai media.

[TonySoprano]

This is Thailand, as many like to say.

[sabaijai]

Erroneous headline and story. The arrest had nothing to do with lese majeste and the Computer Act contains no clause referencing lese majeste in the first place.

No, you are wrong.

She was charged under Article 15, that says:

Article 15. Any service provider intentionally supporting or consenting to an offence under Section 14 within a computer system under their control shall be subject to the same penalty as that imposed upon a person committing an offence under Section 14.

The relevant part of article 14:

(3) that involves import to a computer system of any computer data related with an offence against the Kingdom's security under the Criminal Code;

The case was about comments deemed lese majeste that were left too long on the prachathai forum.

Lese majeste laws are now right back were they were brought under Sarit, as integral part of national security. Read up the definition of the monarchy in terms of national security, and the comments of the justice minister on this issue, both while he was shadow minister in the opposition, and after he was appointed minister.

The Comuputer Act gives the authorities wide reaching powers given the fluffy definition of national security, or what the government or ISOC deems as an offense against national security.

Abhisit may say whatever he want in English to an English speaking audience. It sounds good, and is aimed at strengthening investor confidence and tourism. More important though is what he and especially his deputy prime minister Suthep, who also oversees national security, say in Thai to the Thai population. That often is the exact opposite than what is said to Farang.

Lese majeste refers to insulting the monarchy, not 'Offence against the Kingdom's security.' The charge was not lese majeste.

The Comuputer Act gives the authorities wide reaching powers given the fluffy definition of national security, or what the government or ISOC deems as an offense against national security.

Agreed, and that's obviously what's going on.

[Koo82]

Land of Smile?

[justanothercybertosser]

Agreed, and that's obviously what's going on.

I believe the whole case was about a few posts that were about lese majeste, and left on the forum for too long by the moderators (i believe 20 days). I admit that i am not 100% sure though. Especially the new computer crime act and what falls under the definition of national security is more than confusing.

I guess we will have to wait and see how this case plays out later on.

[hammered]

Agreed, and that's obviously what's going on.

I believe the whole case was about a few posts that were about lese majeste, and left on the forum for too long by the moderators (i believe 20 days). I admit that i am not 100% sure though. Especially the new computer crime act and what falls under the definition of national security is more than confusing.

I guess we will have to wait and see how this case plays out later on.

That is what has been reported. I think reported quote from the site owner.

[SwitchHitter]

Erroneous headline and story. The arrest had nothing to do with lese majeste and the Computer Act contains no clause referencing lese majeste in the first place.

No, you are wrong.

Lese majeste refers to insulting the monarchy, not 'Offence against the Kingdom's security.' The charge was not lese majeste.

Thank you for clearing that up.

It certainly doesn't help when erroneous articles and then erroneous posts are made.

[justanothercybertosser]

Not that "erroneous":

</h1>

<h1>Suthep says he has not received report on legal action against Prachathai website

Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said Monday that he had not received a police report about the legal action against the non-profit online newspaper Prachatai yet.

He said if the site considered police's action unfair, it could file a complaint to him.

On Friday, the Crime Suppression Division raided the office of Prachathai, accusing its Web director of violating the Computer Act by posting lese-majeste comments.

Web director Chiranuch Premchaiporn was arrested on a charge of committing a computer crime, because she allowed the offending comments to be posted on Prachatai's Web board.

The Nation

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...ort-on-legal-ac

[sabaijai]

You're quoting the same source that got it wrong in the first place. See Prachatai's own detailed report, which includes a copy of the Computer Act. No mention of lese majeste in the law or in the charges, either in the English or the Thai versions.

I'm not saying that national security isn't among the justifications for LM. But the fact is that the Prachatai webmaster was not charged with LM, so the report was incorrect.

[justanothercybertosser]

You're quoting the same source that got it wrong in the first place. See Prachatai's own detailed report, which includes a copy of the Computer Act. No mention of lese majeste in the law or in the charges, either in the English or the Thai versions.

I'm not saying that national security isn't among the justifications for LM. But the fact is that the Prachatai webmaster was not charged with LM, so the report was incorrect.

I am not so sure about that. I am confused. She seems to have been charged under the Cumputer Act, for comments that may have been lese majeste, but not her comments.

Here is Jon Ungpakorn's comment on it:

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=1035

Jon says that the police have arrested Prachatai Director Chiranuch Premchaiporn for comments on the web-board which the public use to share their opinions. Prachatai has always acted responsibly and had a clear policy to monitor postings and delete offensive ones. He observes that the police pressed charges without identifying which comments and when they were posted, but only said that Prachatai had left the comments up for a long time and the comments were offensive to the monarchy.

[henryalleman]

A country and his institutes are in deep problem when they have to enforce very stringent .......... .......laws to keep the lid on to prevent that the people will notice that contents of pot start to stink.

[futureexpat]

You're quoting the same source that got it wrong in the first place. See Prachatai's own detailed report, which includes a copy of the Computer Act. No mention of lese majeste in the law or in the charges, either in the English or the Thai versions.

I'm not saying that national security isn't among the justifications for LM. But the fact is that the Prachatai webmaster was not charged with LM, so the report was incorrect.

So what do you make of all this from Pratachais own detailed report?:

"...the arbitrary interpretation of the lèse majesté law has brought back an atmosphere of restricted freedom. The law has been broadly applied to the extent that just a call to abolish or revamp the law is itself deemed lèse majesté."

"...the police pressed charges without identifying which comments and when they were posted, but only said that Prachatai had left the comments up for a long time and the comments were offensive to the monarchy."

Seems like it has everything in the world to do with LM.

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=1035

[sabaijai]

Thailand's media freedom: myth and reality

Kavi Chongkittavorn

The Nation (Thailand)

Publication Date: 09-03-2009

Last Friday (March 6), Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva was speaking eloquently in front of three dozen Asian editors and publishers about his efforts to bring back Thailand's reputation as a land of free media. Four hours later, however, his dream would be shattered. Pol Col Satit Tachayapop, deputy commander of the Crime Suppression Division led 10 officials armed with a search warrant signed a day earlier to the Prachatai. com office in Huay Kwang.

Within minutes, news of this Internet harassment reached four corners of the world. It has made Thailand look a fool again.

In his speech, Abhisit said in the Thai political history, Thai media have sometimes been stripped of rights to inform and restrict press freedom. As a former spokesperson, he knew the value of free press. He presided over the 1997-2001 government that enjoyed high rankings in global free-media indexes of well-known international media monitoring groups.

While there is strong constitutional protection for freedom of expression, it is balanced by the laws that give the government muscle to squeeze the media through restrictions under the pretext of preserving national security. Past governments, he pointed out, have interfered with some newspapers while supporting others. Libel law is also abused and used as a negotiating instrument for politicians, many of whom filed suits against journalists in order to intimidate them.

Under his leadership, the media communities would be protected to ensure they can operate with freedom, non-interference and social responsibility. He pledged to amend any law that contravenes the rights and freedom of the people and the media. In months to come, he said this government would amend the Official Information Act (1997) to promote access and disclosure of official information. Of late, the access to information instrument has been used to halt disclosure of information. For the first time, he said the approach to the abuse of libel law should be to increase the weight of the burden of proof so that unsubstantiated lawsuits would not proliferate.

In the long run, he said the government will attempt to reform the entire media sector "in a comprehensive, fair and transparent manner and continue to improve the role of state media agencies to better serve the public interest".

No other governments in recent memory have had similar courage and vision to spell out the Thai media reforms like the Abhisit-led government has done so far. But a frequently asked question is: Can he do it? Previous media-reform efforts, regardless of the subject matter, have been politicised and polarised. Past decisions, often done surreptitiously with knee-jerk reactions, have been linked to vested interest groups and influential members of ruling parties of the day. The establishment in 2007 of Thai Public Broadcasting Service during the Surayuth government was a rare exception.

In the two months since he took over the Thai premiership, he has established excellent rapport with the Thai and foreign media. His message to promote freedom of expression is strong and well received by media communities. However, his future legacy as the defender of free media will be judged in large part by the level of Internet freedom overhere. So far, it does not bode well with his promises.

The raid on the office of Prachaitai and the arrest of its webmaster, Ms Chiranuch Premchaiportn, was a big slap to his face. If the prime minister fails to understand quickly the far-reaching implications resulting from such media harassment including arrests of webmasters and closures of thousands of websites, he would be perceived as a hypocrite who does not match words with deeds. Somehow, concerned officials in the Ministry of Information Technology and Communication, Ministry of Culture, special branch police and other agencies still treat Abhisit's convictions with a grain of salt. It was as if they were pursuing different policy guidelines and priorities which can undermine the prime minister's trustworthiness and creditability.

In the first few years, when the Internet was introduced in the early 1990's, there were only around 200 subscribers limited to the academic world. At present, Thailand has around 15 million online users and their numbers are growing as the online fee comes down. Indeed, there would be more netizens in the country if not for the culture of fear that the Thai authorities have instilled since the Cyber Crime Law came in place in July 2007.

Ironically, Abhisit has to deal with a dilemma related to Internet freedom. In all countries with press freedom, the Internet would remain open—a strong correlation between free press and Internet access. But in the case of Thailand, as it is practised today, the opposite is true. While printed and general media environment is pretty free, the filtering of the Internet is on the rise, judging from the numbers of blocked and shut down websites. It is customary for the authorities to say that these targeted websites contained pornography and views insulting the monarch. Truth be told, only about 100 of the 4,800 shutdown websites early this year were pornographic, the rest were websites considered the latter case. Surprising, most were just disapproving, nothing serious, except a few hard-core ones. Only 30 websites were identified as fake commercial websites.

Online users are mainly young people, who have used all forms of new media including proliferating web-boards for self-expression. It was the postings by "Buffalo Boy" last October inside the Prachatai's web-board that got the alternative website into trouble. A warning should have been sufficient and appropriate to the case. Instead, the Crime Suppression Division preferred the harsh measure of arresting the webmaster but later on freeing her on bail. Damage has been done. Inside web-boards, all sorts of views are expressed including tasteless ones. But these are part and parcel of information societies. It would be futile to monitor all postings. After all, we are not living in a police state. Any response must be proportionate. The best option is to educate the online users, especially the first time users, about freedom of expression and their responsibilities as well as lessons on cyber crime laws. Concerned authorities also need to educate themselves and catch up with the changing role of media, especially online, in transforming the most hidden secrets or parts of anything into public domain.

It is inevitable that the media freedom reports and indexes on Thailand this year by well-established New York-based Freedom House, or Paris-based Reporters Without Borders, ahead of May 3 World Press Freedom Day would be extremely negative. This would certainly remain a huge scar on Abhisit's human rights record and ethos unless he has decided to do something drastic to thwart this unhealthy trend.

[sabaijai]

You're quoting the same source that got it wrong in the first place. See Prachatai's own detailed report, which includes a copy of the Computer Act. No mention of lese majeste in the law or in the charges, either in the English or the Thai versions.

I'm not saying that national security isn't among the justifications for LM. But the fact is that the Prachatai webmaster was not charged with LM, so the report was incorrect.

So what do you make of all this from Pratachais own detailed report?:

"...the arbitrary interpretation of the lèse majesté law has brought back an atmosphere of restricted freedom. The law has been broadly applied to the extent that just a call to abolish or revamp the law is itself deemed lèse majesté."

"...the police pressed charges without identifying which comments and when they were posted, but only said that Prachatai had left the comments up for a long time and the comments were offensive to the monarchy."

Seems like it has everything in the world to do with LM.

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=1035

But according to Prachatai, LM wasn't the charge lodged against her.

"She has been charged under a new law which makes it an offence to carry computer content that endangers national security."

source: http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=1032

2007 Computer Crime Act

Article 14. If any person commits any offence of the following acts shall be subject to imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine of not more than one hundred thousand baht or both:

(1) that involves import to a computer system of forged computer data, either in whole or in part, or false computer data, in a manner that is likely to cause damage to that third party or the public;

(2) that involves import to a computer system of false computer data in a manner that is likely to damage the country's security or cause a public panic;

(3) that involves import to a computer system of any computer data related with an offence against the Kingdom's security under the Criminal Code;

(4) that involves import to a computer system of any computer data of a pornographic nature that is publicly accessible;

(5) that involves the dissemination or forwarding of computer data already known to be computer data under (1) (2) (3) or (4);

Article 15. Any service provider intentionally supporting or consenting to an offence under Section 14 within a computer system under their control shall be subject to the same penalty as that imposed upon a person committing an offence under Section 14.

Source: http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=1030

We do not now specifically know that it was comments about LM that led to the arrest, other than one alleged comment by an anonymous police officer. Whatever the reasons that motivated the police, even if they included LM-related posts, the website editor has not been charged with lese majeste. Politically the timing suggests an effort by the national police leadership--most still loyal to Thaksin--to embarrass Abhisit, who that very morning had pledged to improve press freedom and arguably enjoys better press relations than any Thai PM since Chuan.

[justanothercybertosser]

Politically the timing suggests an effort by the national police leadership--most still loyal to Thaksin--to embarrass Abhisit, who that very morning had pledged to improve press freedom and arguably enjoys better press relations than any Thai PM since Chuan.

That is wishful thinking.

I would suggest to read up on the position of the justice minister who has already during his time as shadow minister in the opposition made a motion in parliament to increase the maximum punishment for lese majeste from 15 to 25 years. He, and also Suthep have made similar comment, explicitly stating that these laws are a question of national security. Also Abhisit has made it as one of his priorities to "protect" the monarchy during his policy statement.

Abhisit may hold speeches that appear liberal, but he is everything than liberal. The computer act is a law that has been intruduced during the military coup, and the Democrats have defended it since. The government, ISOC and the army make policy, police has very little to say right now. The behind the scenes politics on these issues are very different than speeches of Abhsit suggest. There is a huge discrepancy between public statements and action.

Just wait and see - this is only the beginning.

[Plus]

It's important to note that... actually the lunatic serial "officer" filled... 3 complaints against J.Head ! Three !...

It's a vendetta or a campaign of intimidation against the western media.

That's quite a jump - from a lunatic to secret vendetta, allegedly by the government and Abhisit.

From this angle, the government is the one that suffers most from filing this incessant charges, why assume that they direct this campaign at all?

In fact it would make more sense if it was a part of a red's plot to discredit Abhisit, who keeps scoring brownies abroad.

The police isn't exactly a hot bed of support for anti-Thaksin movement, reds can find plenty of officers well protected by their superiors who'd file any charge they want, or encourage some overzeaolus types to do their work themselves, give them tips, exress outrage that this abuse is allowed to go on and it's time to protect the country.

I'm not saying that this has happened in every case, but some do look very suspicious, like Harry's. I mean what policeman would read his book, in English, up to 125th page? Someone else had to tell them where to look, and it surely wasn't Abhisit.

I'm condident Ahisit had no idea about Prachathai arrest either.

What I'm saying is that government opponents have both the motives and the means to execute this LM campaign, their participation shouldn't be ruled out. It's a possibility, and at this point it looks more plausible than a secret government plan to shoot itself in a foot.

[justanothercybertosser]

In fact it would make more sense if it was a part of a red's plot to discredit Abhisit, who keeps scoring brownies abroad.

More than unlikely. You are grasping at straws.

In that case we would have seen Abhisit slamming the police already for the way how they handled the situation. During the PAD demonstrations he has not hesitated to do that whenever police did try to do their job against PAD, even when equipped with all necessary court orders.

Not all police officers are favoring Thaksin, there is a strong minority that favors Democrats, and many others that favor whoever is in power. And the ones that actually are known not to favor the Democrats are under intense pressure (if they are high ranking enough to matter). In today's Thailand police has not much to say anyhow - they have to follow policy.

It is government/military/ISOC policy to go harshly against who they deem as taking part in a supposed conspiracy against the monarchy.

You are only right in your point that so far Abhisit does indeed score brownie points in the west, at least in some quarters. The Democrats are very skilled at the lobbying game. How long they can manage to whitewash their uglier side, remains to be seen.

Edited March 10, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[Plus]

It is government/military/ISOC policy to go harshly against who they deem as taking part in a supposed conspiracy against the monarchy.

That's a conjecture.

The outcome of this campaign is hurting the government and playing in the hands of opposition and in the hands of the supposed conspiracy they are fighting.

As I said - it's the opposition that benefits, it has motives, and it has means.

You and some others seem to have no problem tracing it all the way up to Abhisit. While there are plenty of idiots in the military/ISOC, Abhisit is not one of them. If he was behind the slew of the latest charges, he'd have stopped long time ago after observing the first reaction.

Otherwise you imply that he secretly directs the campaign which hurts the image he is trying to project to the West and gains him absolutely nothing. Do you think he wanted Giles charged for a worthless book written two years earlier? What for? The only beneficiary of that move was Giles himself and anti-LM circus who still milks the issue.

A serial lunatic with three charges behind his belt is a better explanation. Rogue officers filing charges on behalf of unnamed parties is a better explanation. Abhisit is not in the position to clamp down on police, he needs their protection from all things red, not the other way around. They can sabotage him at any moment by either letting the reds loose or applying unnecessary force to control them.

[justanothercybertosser]

It is government/military/ISOC policy to go harshly against who they deem as taking part in a supposed conspiracy against the monarchy.

That's a conjecture.

The outcome of this campaign is hurting the government and playing in the hands of opposition and in the hands of the supposed conspiracy they are fighting.

As I said - it's the opposition that benefits, it has motives, and it has means.

You and some others seem to have no problem tracing it all the way up to Abhisit. While there are plenty of idiots in the military/ISOC, Abhisit is not one of them. If he was behind the slew of the latest charges, he'd have stopped long time ago after observing the first reaction.

Otherwise you imply that he secretly directs the campaign which hurts the image he is trying to project to the West and gains him absolutely nothing. Do you think he wanted Giles charged for a worthless book written two years earlier? What for? The only beneficiary of that move was Giles himself and anti-LM circus who still milks the issue.

A serial lunatic with three charges behind his belt is a better explanation. Rogue officers filing charges on behalf of unnamed parties is a better explanation. Abhisit is not in the position to clamp down on police, he needs their protection from all things red, not the other way around. They can sabotage him at any moment by either letting the reds loose or applying unnecessary force to control them.

The views of the justice minister and of the deputy prime minister in charge of national security are on record. The justice minister has made a motion already during his time as opposition MP and shadow justice minister to increase the maximum prison term to 25 years. I have not seen Abhisit protesting this. Abhisit is on record of having answered the question if there is a "conspiracy" existing to discredit the monarchy with a clear 'yes' during the speech and following Q and A at the Intercontinental Hotel.

As long as Abhsit is as successful in his intenational lobbying as he is so far, this arrest does less damage than gives benefit to his government. Criticism from inside Thailand will decrease, while criticism from western media organisations and other bodies will have less impact than the positive views under the quarters that matter resulting from the lobbying activities.

I do not imply that Abhsit secretly directs this campaign and is personally responsible for this and other arrests. That would be as idiotic as accusing Thaksin to be behind everything that happened under his rule. What i state is that the Democrat Party, together with the military and ISOC makes policy, and this arrest is result of this policy. Abhsit as PM is part of the policy makers. And he is well in the position to clamp down on police - the power balance has clearly shifted since the 2006 coup.

As to the "rogue police officer" working on behalf of unnamed parties comes rather close to what happened. Other than that this particular officer is not a rogue officer, and that the "unnamed parties" are hardly the ones that have to suffer from the charges, such as Jakrapop Penkair, who had to leave his position of Government Minister and will be out of any political position until those charges are cleared. And Giles hardly benefitted from the charges leveled against him. Not being able to return to Thailand is not exactly a benefit.

There is far more evidence for my line of argumentation, while you support your views solely by speculation.

[Plus]

There certainly IS a movement to discredit the royal insitution, which is now spends more time on trumping up LM charges. Why would Abhisit give them that chance?

Giles and his book faded into obscurity, it wasn't a promised bombshell as it was advertised. It was in the news only for the book shop controversy with no one paying any attention to its content. Now he is suddenly all over the news again for yet another publicity stunt. In the meantime no one has any idea what he was exactly charged for but everyone knows that he fled.

None of this gives the governemnt any benefit. Perhaps arresting website owner for not removing offensive content sends a message but all other cases should have better be left off the news radar completely, no one would pay any attention otherwise. Exactly the same argument the foreign petitioners used in their letter - arresting people left and right does not serve any useful purpose for the government.

Do you think Abhisit doesn't get it? He's not stupid, you know.

I highly doubt that his government is really behind this campaign of endless charges against harmless idiots.

And Penklair has nothing to complain about. His case is taking a lot longer than Harry's and he hasn't got any jail time, and most likely never will. He's got it the easiest.

[justanothercybertosser]

There certainly IS a movement to discredit the royal insitution, which is now spends more time on trumping up LM charges. Why would Abhisit give them that chance?

Giles and his book faded into obscurity, it wasn't a promised bombshell as it was advertised. It was in the news only for the book shop controversy with no one paying any attention to its content. Now he is suddenly all over the news again for yet another publicity stunt. In the meantime no one has any idea what he was exactly charged for but everyone knows that he fled.

None of this gives the governemnt any benefit. Perhaps arresting website owner for not removing offensive content sends a message but all other cases should have better be left off the news radar completely, no one would pay any attention otherwise. Exactly the same argument the foreign petitioners used in their letter - arresting people left and right does not serve any useful purpose for the government.

Do you think Abhisit doesn't get it? He's not stupid, you know.

I highly doubt that his government is really behind this campaign of endless charges against harmless idiots.

And Penklair has nothing to complain about. His case is taking a lot longer than Harry's and he hasn't got any jail time, and most likely never will. He's got it the easiest.

Actually, everybody who has followed the cases knows exactly what Giles was charged for. The laws do not permit though to repeat the offending passages of his book here on this forum, as this would also be Lese Majeste. Sondhi Limthongkul, for example, was charged for repeating Da Torpedo's speech on the PAD stage.

Giles's book never was "advertised" as a bombshell. It was sold by one local university bookstore, had a small printrun, was sold out quickly, and is still avaliable for free as PDF. Please do not try to make it out as something that it never even was intended. It has its weaknesses (a bit too much heavy on Marxist phraseology of 80 years ago), and its strong points (the best analyses of the NGO scenery here i have come across).

So, you doubt that the government is behind this campaign, because you think that Abhisit is not stupid. Do you have any other supporting evidence for your views other than your doubts and believes?

The problem is, that there is more than enough evidence (which i have partly cited) that the government indeed is part of this campaign. It is not just Giles who has pointed this out. The recent letter of 50 academics contains the biggest names in the field of Thai studies, such as McCargo, Herzfeld, Winichakul and many others. Also Noam Chomski has signed the letter. But of course that has escaped your attention. Or, you have to add now the majority of wellknown academics in Thai studies to your growing hate list.