Rebirth, Reincarnation, After Life!

[DeDanan]

Rebirth, Reincarnation, After Life!!!

Or lack of…

As a former Roman Catholic this is one of the hardest concepts I have to come to terms with in accepting the Buddhist view regarding what happens when we depart this life. It can sometimes be difficult to realise that you can not call on a “God” Supreme Being for help in our hour of need.

I make the above comment not as a question but as an observation…. Your views would be appreciated on this topic!

Have a Happy…

DeDanan.

[ProThaiExpat]

As a Deist, I can find no evidence of any afterlife, and since Universism is not a failth based religion, few of us contemplate life after death.

It would seem to me that as a person who relies entirely on "faith" for your religious beliefs, you can choose any "belief" you choose regarding an afterlife. If you are struggling with a particular religions dogma, why not start your own "offshoot", as so many have done over the centuries. After all, dogma is man created, and by definition, anything man created is flawed. Many Catholics today, vary widely it how much of that churches dogma to believe in and how much to ignore, while remaining with thier concept that they are "Catholics.

Belief in an afterlife is a basic human need as the human "ego" and self-preservation instinct is involved. Thus, faith based religions promise a "afterlife" as part of their appeal. After all, it is merely a belief, nothing else. Believing in something, no matter how strongly, doesn't in and of itself make it true. However, it can be justified as a positive force as it creates happiness in the believer, as it satisfies this basic human need.

Likewise, the belief in an "interventionist" god satisfies the basic human need that there is a purpose in being, that prayers to ones "father" will be answered, etc. Many faith based religionists believe that aftr creating the heaven and earth, God rested in eternitiy and has left man to his own devices in running the world. Others believer God tinkers with the outcome of man's prediclictions.

The tsunami disaster has once again put such beliefs to the test for those who believe along those line. No problem for a Deist.

[cdnvic]

I do not take the literal view of reincarnation. There is nothing to suggest it really exists, and both the Zen school, and myself take a dim view on accepting things by faith.

What I do believe the cycle of rebirth to mean, is that you are bound to repeat past mistakes if corrective action is not taken. The essence of kharma is the same as physics... every action has an equal and opposite reaction... undesirable action brings undesirable results.

You have to keep in mind that most buddhist literiture that you read is translated from sanskrit, chinese, and other languages dating back many centuries, and that there are animist, brahman, and confucian ideas mixed in everywhere.

I don't think you can choose to follow any particular kind of buddhism. You are who you are, and what you need to do is find what matches your beliefs. Don't worry if you read something that troubles you, everyone has their own path inside they need to follow, and the author just had a different one than you do.

"Pursue your own enlightenment with diligence" The last words attributed to Buddha Guatama.

cv

[Suthep_Steve]

What is the relationship between the mind and the physical brain?

I believe that the mind is a formless thing that does not depend on the brain for its existence. Not a very popular view. I've heard a lot of scientific people pooh pooh that notion but they can never come up with a good argument against it.

If that's true then if we look at cause and effect again, what causes the momentary experience of mind to arise? The mind is formless therefore its cause will be formless. We talk of a stream of consciousness. One thought giving rise to the next. From a Buddhist point of view the cause of a mind is the previous moment of mind. Therefore when did this process begin when did we have our first thought. Buddha said he could see no beginning to living beings mental continuums. How could he if cause and effect is true you can't have an effect suddenly arising without a cause. You can't suddenly have a mind arising without its associated cause. Therefore our mind has always existed. That means we have had countless previous lives and by extrapolating the argument forward we will have countless future lives as well.

Well that's what I believe.

[camerata]

It can sometimes be difficult to realise that you can not call on a “God” Supreme Being for help in our hour of need.

My favourite quote on the subject comes from Walpola Rahula:

"Two ideas are psycologically deep-rooted in man: self-protection and self-preservation. For self-protection man has created God, on whom he depends for his own protection, safety and security, just as a child depends on its parent. For self-preservation man has conceived the idea of an immortal Soul or Atman, which will live eternally. In his ignorance, weakness, fear, and desire, man needs these two things to console himself. Hence he clings to them deeply and fanatically."

I think you just have to set aside the belief in a god as something that's been socialized into you over a lifetime and will take a long time to disappear.

As for rebirth, it seems even within the Theravada tradition, there are many different views on or explanations of this, especially from Western monks. Here's one from Bikkhu Pesala, a British monk ordained by a Burmese master:

"Many people do not believe that there are other realms of existence such as he11, ghost and demon realms, where evildoers suffer after death. The Buddha taught that such realms do exist, so many people now hold wrong views. One who holds firmly onto such wrong views is opposed to the teaching of the Buddha, and so will be reborn in he11 after death."

You can read the whole kamma-rebirth talk on his web site at aimwell.org.

Edited January 16, 2005 by camerata

[sabaijai]

Rebirth, Reincarnation, After Life!!!

Or lack of…

As a former Roman Catholic this is one of the hardest concepts I have to come to terms with in accepting the Buddhist view regarding what happens when we depart this life. It can sometimes be difficult to realise that you can not call on a “God” Supreme Being for help in our hour of need.

I make the above comment not as a question but as an observation…. Your views would be appreciated on this topic!

Have a Happy…

DeDanan.

There was a lengthy thread on this topic back in May 2004:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...0842&hl=rebirth

I believe you started that one, too, Danan! Not that the topic shouldn't be 'reincarnated' ...

[DeDanan]

Rebirth, Reincarnation, After Life!!!

Or lack of…

As a former Roman Catholic this is one of the hardest concepts I have to come to terms with in accepting the Buddhist view regarding what happens when we depart this life. It can sometimes be difficult to realise that you can not call on a “God” Supreme Being for help in our hour of need.

I make the above comment not as a question but as an observation…. Your views would be appreciated on this topic!

Have a Happy…

DeDanan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There was a lengthy thread on this topic back in May 2004:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...0842&hl=rebirth

I believe you started that one, too, Danan! Not that the topic shouldn't be 'reincarnated' ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the topic May 2004 topic I asked the question about the Buddhist view of an after life / reincarnation or rebirth.

In this topic I mealy wished to point out that it is sometimes difficult to accept that there is NO supreme being that one can turn to for “help” in a time of crisis.

This was not intended to be a question about rebirth, but a comment on my difficulties in coming to terms with the idea of having no “God” to ask for help in a time of need.

When I asked “Your views would be appreciated on this topic!” it was to discuss other peoples experiences regarding the difficulty of not having a “God” request help from in a time of crisis.

Sorry if the title of the topic was a bit misleading.

Have a Happy…

DeDanan.

[cdnvic]

This was not intended to be a question about rebirth, but a comment on my difficulties in coming to terms with the idea of having no “God” to ask for help in a time of need.

Not exactly perhaps. To me buddhism has been alot about finding the "God" within.

You're just looking in the wrong place.

cv

[Darknight]

What is the relationship between the mind and the physical brain?

I believe that the mind is a formless thing that does not depend on the brain for its existence. Not a very popular view. I've heard a lot of scientific people pooh pooh that notion but they can never come up with a good argument against it.

If that's true then if we look at cause and effect again, what causes the momentary experience of mind to arise? The mind is formless therefore its cause will be formless. We talk of a stream of consciousness. One thought giving rise to the next.  From a Buddhist point of view the cause of a mind is the previous moment of mind. Therefore when did this process begin when did we have our first thought. Buddha said he could see no beginning to living beings mental continuums. How could he if cause and effect is true you can't have an effect suddenly arising without a cause. You can't suddenly have a mind arising without its associated cause. Therefore our mind has always existed. That means we have had countless previous lives and by extrapolating the argument forward we will have countless future lives as well.

Well that's what I believe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is 'assuming' there is a relationship between the mind and the brain... Is the mind not created by the physical brain? Are the two, one and the same? If there is a mind, can it exist without a body? If mind can exist without a body, then a body is just a waste of space... So many questions without answers or proofs.

I love it when people say... and Buddha said, or Jesus said... as if it were irrefutable fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Simpel , and i gree wtih suthep steve. The mind (soul) is a formless entity. look at it as the software and database of all of your experiences (i'm an it consultant so the analogy is easy). The mind needs abody to interact with others, to feel, smell, experience , to record data in it's database.

The body is the hardware , provides the sensors, physical energy, interaction with other minds. it allows to be steered by the mind.

Both are interlinked as either of them can't function completely. The body without a soul is simply that. a body , no reactions, no interactions, no Life. A mind(soul) can exist without a body but has no tools to interact with anymore, The physical body needs to be there, the emotional body needs to be there (yes there's another one) and the spiritual body needs to be there (soul). Only then can people (souls) interact and grow both spiritually and mentally.

Yes there are other plains of existence. How do i know ? i've know always . Do you have to believe me ? NO you can't , unless you are open for it and had similar experiences. then you won't believe , then you will just know as well.

The frog in the well has a limited round view of the sky, slowly and slowly he climbed to the top , to suddenly experience the complete sky, the horizon, the stars..

" Your focus determines your reality. Widen your focus, widen your reality"

[cdnvic]

I love it when people say... and Buddha said, or Jesus said... as if it were irrefutable fact.

Does that mean you want me to stop going around saying "Well... the other day Ravisher said..."?

cv

Edited January 19, 2005 by cdnvic

[srisatch]

Ain't life-what is that?-great

A few clicks away there are guys worrying about their visas, next lay, cheating girlfriends, price of rice..here there is an amiable conversation about mind, body and estate..well not so much about the estate bit..though it is important as it is where we are. Why I rather favour Buddhism is to do with Acceptance rather than Explanation. Once you start trying to Explain everything as is the way with Islam and Christianity you then start wanting to tell everone what to believe. If I have understood it we are different from animals in that we know that we know. In other words their is something both more than the brain-which is simply matter- and more than mind-which if you want to use the metaphor of software will do-but it does not really work because software implies protocols and a logic-which if it exists in the mind has not yet been described in the DNA mode which is where you come to soul/spirit or Win Yaan which is a recognition that there is something more than a mechanical or biological 'operation' at work in human beings. The point then is to escape the cycle that drags the soul back into mind and body..in however many incarnations or re-incarnations..and that is through Acceptance... Or summat!

I shall now get on with Lies!

[Suthep_Steve]

This is 'assuming' there is a relationship between the mind and the brain... Is the mind not created by the physical brain? Are the two, one and the same? If there is a mind, can it exist without a body? If mind can exist without a body, then a body is just a waste of space... So many questions without answers or proofs.

I love it when people say... and Buddha said, or Jesus said... as if it were irrefutable fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think the mind is created by the physical brain. The reasons both ways are somewhat circumstantial but I believe the evidence is stronger for the other way around. Most people look at the world with their 5 senses and believe them unquestioningly. The world is a fixed, existing entity out there waiting to be discovered.

As early as 500BC Parmenides (one of the three main Milesian Philosophers) decided that there was a conflict between reason and the evidence of the sensors. He was I think the first Rationalist in Western philosophy. In some ways I think Buddha is a kind of rationalist he is asking us to put aside what are 5 sensors are telling us and look at reality in a different way.

What if, as in a dream, the brain doesn't create the mind but the mind creates the brain. If we take Darknights computer analogy and turn it around if you turn a computer off and then turn it back on again the computer is basically the same. It can do the same things etc. If you turn off a human and then turn them back on again (i.e. kill them and then link them up to a life support) you don't produce consciousness just because you have the power back on to the brain.

You are right about the body Ravisher it is a waste of space in many ways. One of our biggest attachments is to our body.

I do accept your criticism about my posts being low on intellectual reasoning but as Winnie the Pooh said "I am a bear of little brain," or do I mean mind. There are lots of books and teachers out their if you want to explore the mind brain relationship from a Buddhist perspective. You might like "Understanding the Mind" by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso published by Tharpa.

Perhaps you would like to explain your view and the logic behind it.

[srisatch]

Ain't life-what is that?-great

A few clicks away there are guys worrying about their visas, next lay, cheating girlfriends, price of rice..here there is an amiable conversation about mind, body and estate..well not so much about the estate bit..though it is important as it is where we are. Why I rather favour Buddhism is to do with Acceptance rather than Explanation. Once you start trying to Explain everything as is the way with Islam and Christianity you then start wanting to tell everone what to believe. If I have understood it we are different from animals in that we know that we know. In other words their is something both more than the brain-which is simply matter- and more than mind-which if you want to use the metaphor of software will do-but it does not really work because software implies protocols and a logic-which if it exists in the mind has not yet been described in the DNA mode which is where you come to soul/spirit or Win Yaan which is a recognition that there is something more than a mechanical or biological 'operation' at work in human beings. The point then is to escape the cycle that drags the soul back into mind and body..in however many incarnations or re-incarnations..and that is through Acceptance... Or summat!

I shall now get on with Lies!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you should stop dringing that stuff you are drinking, or smoking the stuff you are smoking...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I am not pickling my Chilhis in Ouzo nor reading Katzanzakis, Leigh Fermor or Cavafy. Don't want to stop. I am the happiest of men Mr. Malakes. Where are YOU...exactly!! Is that an existential question?

[Darknight]

"reality" is just another illusion !

[snowleopard]

"reality" is just another illusion !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll put a gun to your head and see if you won't change your little mind about reality before I pull the trigger.

Disillusion

Snowleopard

[Suthep_Steve]

Sorry, what I was doing there was asking questions... not making statements.

My view is this, and just my view of course. We are born with a physical brain/computer, that has no 'mind' as such. At the birth stage we have no consciousness of 'I'. The brain, as I see it, is a computer with an empty hard drive that comes with an 'operating system'. This operating system takes care of all the autonomous stuff... breathing, heartrate, temperature controls etc etc etc.

The brain/computer itself has no input at birth and is gradually 'programmed' by the environment... The eyes learn to focus, the limbs and muscles learn to move and develpe more accuracy as we develope. Gradually we gain the sense of 'I' and the ego developes...

Dreams I believe are the brain/computer defragging itself while we sleep. The dreams are created from all the 'pieces' of infromation being processed and all going back into place... and the mind trying to make sense of this jumbled information when we at near waking.

I do not see any 'mind' or anything working outside of, or free from the physical body. The brain is a part of the body and visa versa, we cannot have one without the other. They come as a complete unit. Mind is what I would refer to if speaking of the 'whole' brain system... which is monstrously complex. We can say, the workings of the 'mind' or the workings of the 'brain'. It is the same thing. I do not think that 'soul' has anything to do with anything, other than a way to explain how we can have another Life. I do not believe in reincarnation. I cannot believe for the sake of believing... it must fit into my logic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No need to apologies Ravisher. I love this kind of thing, just wish I was better at it.

You (sorry for stereotyping) best fit the Eastern Philosophical school called the Charavakas although you lightly touch on one of the subjects used by Buddhists as an area of weakness in the Charavaka philosophy, namely dreams and subtle levels of mind. When you’re asleep but not dreaming couldn't you be experiencing levels of mind that are not produced from the brain? Some Buddhist schools call this mind the Clear Light Mind; this is the mind that goes from life to life. The dream world arises from it as does the 'real' world when we are reborn. I won't call it a soul as that is a messy word with far too much baggage. It is as illusory as everything else but if we can learn to use it we are very close to becoming a Buddha.

In fact to get back to DeDanan's original point what the Vajrayanists do is then put a physical face on this mind. So they describe a formless object or mind in a visual way, rather than writing about it they create a visual explanation. The Clear Light Mind of a Buddha meditating on the ultimate nature of reality appears in the aspect of Buddha Vajradhara, this gives those who need it, and I hold my hand up here because I do, a deity to cling on to when we are in trouble. However the deity in a sense represents a state of mind that we are aspiring to.