sapi Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 hello thaivisa members, been doing some modification on my bike (nsr 150 sp), mainly to make it more durable and less service period. Changed the brake and tail light to LED just to reduce the power consumption (longer battery life) and easier start. It works.....for awhile. Changed the turn signal into led also, same reason, problem with the wiring and flasher. The original relay leak some volt and current, all 4 lights are on. (weird)....any suggestion beside relay?? Yesterday, change the headlight to LED, original from honda is 12v/30W, tested the wiring to make sure i made the right circuit, read only 8-10V for headlight (battery is new). Installed and tested the led bulb at night, WOW so bright, it lasted only for 5 mins before the voltage to headlight drop to 5V, 5V is just a hunch..(tail light need 5V)......the led is on but so dim (i made it so i know it need around 8-10V, 250mA for optimum brightness). any suggestion which part i should check first?? also welcome to give me suggestion any mod i should do next. cheers, sapi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_boo Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 hello thaivisa members,been doing some modification on my bike (nsr 150 sp), mainly to make it more durable and less service period. Changed the brake and tail light to LED just to reduce the power consumption (longer battery life) and easier start. It works.....for awhile. Changed the turn signal into led also, same reason, problem with the wiring and flasher. The original relay leak some volt and current, all 4 lights are on. (weird)....any suggestion beside relay?? Yesterday, change the headlight to LED, original from honda is 12v/30W, tested the wiring to make sure i made the right circuit, read only 8-10V for headlight (battery is new). Installed and tested the led bulb at night, WOW so bright, it lasted only for 5 mins before the voltage to headlight drop to 5V, 5V is just a hunch..(tail light need 5V)......the led is on but so dim (i made it so i know it need around 8-10V, 250mA for optimum brightness). any suggestion which part i should check first?? also welcome to give me suggestion any mod i should do next. cheers, sapi If you're expecting the lower power consumption to extend battery life, I'd be more worried about the generator.....that seems to be the root of your problems. Take your bike to any good Honda dealership and tell them you want it fixed-can't guarantee it will be a speedy fix since I'm unsure what part is damaged/inoperative and whether that part is used in any other Honda applications (and therefore has a better chance of being in stock). If it is the same as used in the Nova, it should be a quick fix, if not, you'll have to wait for the part to arrive. Also, since the draw is so low on LED lights, you may wish to add a load balancer to those in the turn signal since the relay probably doesn't have enough load on it to register they're there and blinks them. You know how if a bulb from one side is missing and you turn the switch to that side and it just sends a solid signal? Perhaps it's the same-same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapi Posted March 16, 2009 Author Share Posted March 16, 2009 good suggestion on the generator...havent check it yet. will do if i have enough time. load balancer for turn signal??? never heard of it for motorcycle.....i know for a car....but for motorcycle it's not needed (correct me if i'm wrong) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapi Posted March 16, 2009 Author Share Posted March 16, 2009 i was wrong on load balancer....i admit it.......search the net on motorcycle load balancer. http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=205077 havent try it yet, need calculation on what ohm and wattage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanh-BKK Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 (edited) Hi. I'm running my RXZ "Bulldozer" completely on home-made LED lighting (except the front indicators which were purchased LED indicators), i also employ a home-made electronic flasher relay. You MUST use an electronic flasher relay because the normal relay works via the current drawn - i.e. 2x10+3 watts per side, if one bulb fails it will either "hyper flash" (very fast) or not at all as to indicate to you "attention - bulb out". Problem with LED's is that they draw minute amounts of current which the relay won't even notice - hence nothing flashes, and the LED's run on SUCH a small current that the tiny bit that trickles through the system is enough to make them all four light up. You need to do the following: Get an electronic indicator relay (for example e-bay: http://cgi.ebay.com/3-Pin-Electronic-Flash...93%3A1|294%3A50 i use this identical one in my second RXZ as i was too lazy to build me a second one) Then you'll need a pull-down resistor: One 470 Ohms 1 Watt resistor between (+) and (-) of each left and right front (!) indicator. This is to make sure the relay pulls and also at the same time to eliminate creeping current which would otherwise make an eventual LED indicator control lamp glow at all times. Lastly, if your bike has a single indicator control lamp: This is connected between the (+) wires of left and right front indicators and hence receives voltage one way or another regardless which side indicators are active. To make this work with LED indicators (which let voltage pass in one direction only!) you need to cut off the two wires leading to the lamp, connect each one to a diode (a thick one - that bulb has 3 Watts!) and the other end of BOTH diodes together on one wire to the lamp, the lamp's other end with a new wire to ground. Running this setup daily and works flawlessly, although i don't use "LED-Bulbs" instead i build my own tail/brake light and rear indicators Best regards...... Thanh Edited March 16, 2009 by Thanh-BKK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_boo Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Hi.I'm running my RXZ "Bulldozer" completely on home-made LED lighting (except the front indicators which were purchased LED indicators), i also employ a home-made electronic flasher relay. You MUST use an electronic flasher relay because the normal relay works via the current drawn - i.e. 2x10+3 watts per side, if one bulb fails it will either "hyper flash" (very fast) or not at all as to indicate to you "attention - bulb out". Problem with LED's is that they draw minute amounts of current which the relay won't even notice - hence nothing flashes, and the LED's run on SUCH a small current that the tiny bit that trickles through the system is enough to make them all four light up. You need to do the following: Get an electronic indicator relay (for example e-bay: http://cgi.ebay.com/3-Pin-Electronic-Flash...93%3A1|294%3A50 i use this identical one in my second RXZ as i was too lazy to build me a second one) Then you'll need a pull-down resistor: One 470 Ohms 1 Watt resistor between (+) and (-) of each left and right front (!) indicator. This is to make sure the relay pulls and also at the same time to eliminate creeping current which would otherwise make an eventual LED indicator control lamp glow at all times. Lastly, if your bike has a single indicator control lamp: This is connected between the (+) wires of left and right front indicators and hence receives voltage one way or another regardless which side indicators are active. To make this work with LED indicators (which let voltage pass in one direction only!) you need to cut off the two wires leading to the lamp, connect each one to a diode (a thick one - that bulb has 3 Watts!) and the other end of BOTH diodes together on one wire to the lamp, the lamp's other end with a new wire to ground. Running this setup daily and works flawlessly, although i don't use "LED-Bulbs" instead i build my own tail/brake light and rear indicators Best regards...... Thanh Thanh, nice looking setup, I was hoping that someone who knew their stuff would chime in, because except for what I've posted I don't know much about the switch to LED. Overall my electrical skills aren't too strong, so I must commend you on your build. Also, it's my understanding that since LED bulbs are so directional you either have to go the route you took (put the 'bulbs' all over the area) or ensure that the bulbs you are buying have some diodes pointing back toward the reflector. Is this correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I have seen a mod done by a guy on some SF forums.. They embed either yellow or red (or a combo would be better) in the rear footrest hangers. Giving a near invisible when not in use bank of lights there.. Really nice safety mod and one I will probably do on the project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanh-BKK Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Hi I am not an electrical genius either however i am able to read a plan and build after it.... and with LED's the trick is to get the wide-angel ones. I bought mine on E-Bay because i found it nearly impossible to get them in Thailand - and if then they are expensive. On E-Bay i pay less than 10 Dollars for 100 pieces and they come in any colour that i want Even with narrow-angel ones you can build a good light, you just need a lot of them. You see, some bikes or cars have LED tail lights ex-factory, those use very wide-angeled LED's and hence only a few of them. Mine are more or less regular ones, hence i use many. But don't worry, the whole tail light, when in "brake" mode, pulls less than 1 Watt - quite a difference to the 21 Watts it would pull with a bulb. My indicators pull around 0.5 Watts each, again quite a bit less than the 10 Watts a bulb would pull. As a result my entire on-board electrics (lights, that is) functions flawlessly even without a battery, the current generated by the coil even in idle is more than enough to have full brightness on the tail/brake light and also the indicators. However i keep my battery of course, for the horn. Regarding the reflector, it becomes useless when you are using LED's. If you want a tail light with decent brightness you go my way, making the unit the size of the entire light and stuff as many as possible LED's on there. The more, the brighter. To make the light function in two steps (tail light and brake light) it only requires one additional resistor and one additional diode. In my case, i have used one ordinary light bulb socket to connect it to, so if i want to revert to light bulb i simply take it off and put a light bulb in - the bike's actual on-board electrics have not been modified (except for the tail light to run on battery as opposed to AC in stock configuration). My "board" is held in place with the simplest of measures - hot glue. This can be removed without trace but during use it holds in place as if it was one piece with the light cover. Also, to protect your LED's in the event of battery failure (voltage spikes DO kill LEDs, and quickly!) you must add one more component - one electrolyte capacitor, no smaller than 4,700 uF 36 Volts, simply connect it parallel to the battery. I use a 10,000 uF one. The beauty of LED's is that you can make light "boards" in any shape you desire, see my indicators or the additional brake light in the Givi-box. These boxes btw. are available with and without light ex-factory, and ones without light still have the place for the light, and a stupid sticker "no brake light" on the outside. An original Givi brake light unit cost in the region of 15 Dollars - my home made cost like 50 Cents With kind regards..... your Thanh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 http://www.tripageled.com http://www.tripageled.com/images/gallery/A.../BlueBling.html Theres loads of this guys designs and other stuff.. Knight rider red ones and cyclon lights.. but I like those hangars and they would make for some good extra viz in a country that really needs it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapi Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) @thanh-bkk: for voltage spike you can use zener diode to limit it at example 12v, easier to built and cheaper to buy than capacitor. Beside, you should build the led to accomodate voltage with 10% allowance.....high brightness led is 3-3.5V....add a bigger resistor and you get 10% allowance. buying electronic flasher from e-bay is quite costly, can you post you circuit?? i guess it would rely on IC. ever build led for headlight??? today will installed that load balancer for the headlight, see if that take care the problem. will post pictures after i finish doing the mod. Edited March 17, 2009 by sapi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapi Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 http://www.tripageled.comhttp://www.tripageled.com/images/gallery/A.../BlueBling.html Theres loads of this guys designs and other stuff.. Knight rider red ones and cyclon lights.. but I like those hangars and they would make for some good extra viz in a country that really needs it. actually you can build all of it your own....search google for the circuit and then buy the desired component. It will keep you busy and most importanly make you proud that you make it yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanh-BKK Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) Hi The key to "my" lights (the plans are NOT developed by myself!!) is to have several LED's in series and several such "packets" parallel to use less resistors. I will attach some plans here, copyright to Mr. Ewald Rosner from Austria. Description: Rucklicht = tail light Bremslicht = brake light Blinkleuchte = indicator Kennzeichen = license plate (requires white LED's that "beam" downwards! See my other picture) Masse = ground Widerstand = resistor I will also attach the plan for the relay, which is NOT based on an IC but two transistors. It's easy to build however somewhat difficult to get hold of those transistors, and in the end (including the time to get to some place that sells those, in my case being in Theparak!) it cost about the same as a ready-made one from E-Bay. Best regards..... Thanh Edited March 17, 2009 by Thanh-BKK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapi Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) the led design is the same as my headlight....i dont use it for my brake/tail and turn signal. my thinking is to keep it as safe as possible with independent resistor. Headlight uses a lot of led to compensate with brightness, so individual resistor is not efficient. the electronic flasher still need a relay...better do with 555 IC. good find anyway, and information. edit: whoever need a led calculator http://led.linear1.org/led.wiz edit2: Flasher http://www.hioutput.com/tech/circuits/12VLED.html Edited March 17, 2009 by sapi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanh-BKK Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Oh, forgot this. @sapi A zener diode plus circuitry to protect it cheaper than a capacitor?? Where? I'd buy a dozen right away First of all, you have to get hold of the zener diode - it is not an item small TV repair shops have in stock. Then you'll need an AWFULLY thick one - after all, the horn goes over this circuit as well! As an alternative you put one in every light - where's the cost effectiveness..? A single 10,000 uF capacitor like the one i use simply goes parallel to the battery, does the entire job and cost 25 Baht. Available at every shop that fixes televisions, and such shops you find in every soi. Best regards..... Thanh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanh-BKK Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 the led design is the same as my headlight....i dont use it for my brake/tail and turn signal.my thinking is to keep it as safe as possible with independent resistor. Headlight uses a lot of led to compensate with brightness, so individual resistor is not efficient. the electronic flasher still need a relay...better do with 555 IC. good find anyway, and information. edit: whoever need a led calculator http://led.linear1.org/led.wiz edit2: Flasher http://www.hioutput.com/tech/circuits/12VLED.html Hi Yeah the flasher still uses a relay. However because of that you can also use light bulbs.... OR LED's, or any combination thereof. While using a 555 timer-IC controlled device the indicator control lamp in the cockpit (3 Watts!) is sufficient to burn out the IC or transistors. The reason for using multiple LED's per resistor is not only to save cost by using fewer parts, but also to have the most possible energy efficiency - of course you can build it in such a way that you use 20 LED's each with it's own resistor, and all parallel. However.... this will burn just as much electricity as the light bulb, which kind of defeats the purpose of using LED's in first place. Plus with that many resistors it also gets hot just like a light bulb....... Kind regards..... Thanh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Thinking about it.. a pair of yellow (clear LED yellow light) indicators are 900 baht.. So by getting those and diss assembling them I would have all the LED's and any associated circuitry already done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapi Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 Thinking about it.. a pair of yellow (clear LED yellow light) indicators are 900 baht.. So by getting those and diss assembling them I would have all the LED's and any associated circuitry already done. 900 bath??? buy it complete out of the box-ready to install?? that is still expensive. try this shop for cheap-ready to install led lamp. www.dealextreme.com @thanh: alot of method and circuit to drive a led....each with own disadvantage and advantage...as long it works...no problem. I just read in one forum, we dont really need to change the flasher relay for use with led, he recommend to mod the relay....change the current limiting resistor inside. In theory, it might work. And zener diode is indeed cheaper...i saw it in Zeer rangsit, they sold in in pack of 10 for 15 bath. I said it earlier from my experienced. cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Thinking about it.. a pair of yellow (clear LED yellow light) indicators are 900 baht.. So by getting those and diss assembling them I would have all the LED's and any associated circuitry already done. 900 bath??? buy it complete out of the box-ready to install?? that is still expensive. try this shop for cheap-ready to install led lamp. www.dealextreme.com and whats the shipping going to be from the US, and then customs, and then delay time.. 900 baht for 2 indicators with 16 yellow LEDs in each next day delivered by ems.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanh-BKK Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Hi NEVER buy LED lamps in local stores, they rip you off like there's no tomorrow!! Both my RXZ's have front indicators with LED's ready-bought, one carbon look the other just black, each set (2 pieces) did cost me 12.99 US Dollars. E-Bay http://cgi.ebay.com/Motorcycle-ATV-4x18-LE...93%3A1|294%3A50 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2X16-LED-IN...sQ5fAccessories http://cgi.ebay.com/2X-LED-Motorbike-Motor...93%3A1|294%3A50 http://cgi.ebay.com/2X-LED-Motorbike-Motor...93%3A1|294%3A50 If you don't want to change the flasher relay then you need to add a resistor to the LED indicators, which does the same job a light bulb would - burn off 20 Watts of electricity. Works, but again - defeats the purpose of having LED's. Why not just get the electronic relay from E-Bay, plug-and-play, done. No issues with modifying and it works with LED's AND light bulbs. Oh, and the pull-down-resitors (either 1 kOhm per indicator or 470 Ohm per side, i recommend the latter only to the front indicators for easier installation) are NOT included in the "ready bought" indicators. Best regards..... Thanh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanh-BKK Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 and whats the shipping going to be from the US, and then customs, and then delay time.. 900 baht for 2 indicators with 16 yellow LEDs in each next day delivered by ems.. I've had mine shipped from Hong Kong in 4 days, one set was free shipping, the other (different seller) 4.99 USD. Thanh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapi Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 open the website www.dealextreme.com freeshipping all item....read the comment for item before you buy it whether it needs more mod. it will cost you around 8 usd for decent pair of turn signal. 900 bath for next day shipping....still expensive for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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