Uk Family Visit Visa Applications

[Andrew Hicks]

I live in Thailand with my Thai wife. We plan to visit my adult children in England together.

I assumed we would complete a Family Visit form and not the General Visitor form but when I looked at it, all the questions in Part 8 assume that the Thai applicant lives in Thailand and the family member to be visited lives in UK. The notes do not list my children as being family members under the regulations, so I am the only family member my wife can visit.

But I live with her in Thailand. She is not travelling to visit me in UK but is travelling to UK to visit with me.

I emailed [email protected] and was told that she uses the Family Visitor form if she is visiting family as strictly defined. This was of no help therefore. I repeated the query and have not had a reply.

So my questions are,

1. Has anyone in similar circumstances used the Family Visa form to travel with the applicnt to UK on the basis that she is 'visiting' with you?

2. What difference does it make if it is a family visit as opposed to a general visit? (In answer to this question, the boy at VFS said that completing the Family Visit form would confera right of appeal. Surely this cannot be right though. It must be marriage that confers the right of appeal, not which wretched piece of paper you happen to fill in and sign.)

3. Has the world gone completely mad?

Many thanks,

Andrew Hicks

[7by7]

Knee jerk reaction to offensive term in OP deleted by 7by7

Edited March 17, 2009 by 7by7

[Andrew Hicks]

Knee jerk reaction to offensive term in OP deleted by 7by7

Offensive? Moi!

What about a reply to the thread?

Andrew

[Electra]

You describe the visit as " our " but as far as the application is concerned it is limited to your wife only. The purpose of her visit is to accompany you. She has no family of her own in the UK that she proposes to visit. Your family is not hers for purposes of the visa application. Pretty obvious which form should be completed I would have thought.

The world is mad but for other myriad reasons.

[Electra]

Actually, it is a family visit since she is visiting her step children.

Get a grip!

[bkk_mike]

Family Visit visa - you can appeal if turned down.

Simple tourist visa - you have no right of appeal if turned down.

[Andrew Hicks]

Actually, it is a family visit since she is visiting her step children.

Get a grip!

Your grip on this is absolutely correct, though you don't know if she actually has any step children. Unfortunately my parents are dead and my daughter is serving in Afghanistan and is unable to supply the invitation letter etc.

My question to the Embassy was, 'Assuming there is no family in UK, and that the British husband who lives with the applicant Thai wife in Thailand will travel with her to UK, is this a 'family visit' with the right of appeal?'

I received no clear answer from them despite three emailed enquiries so we went to the British visa agency with both forms completed and asked them which one to submit. They said, 'whichever one you like', so I asked them to call the Embassy which they did.

The Embassy's answer was that we should submit the general visit form as 'there is no family there for her to visit'. (We are now waiting the three weeks for the visa application to be decided.)

This is a possible narrow interpretation of the right of appeal in the legislation. It has strange consequences though.

The right of appeal is to give substance to the universal human right to family life and perhaps also freedom of movement. It seems bizarre therefore that if a British man wishes to take his Thai wife to his own country she is unable to appeal a visa refusal. (Yet if she wants to visit her mother-in-law she can.)

Secondly there are many marginal situations. If we fly together it's not a family visit they say. If I fly a month before or a day before then there is 'someone to visit' and thus logically a right of appeal as a 'family visit'.

Crazy or what?

I am not sure that any of the headless chickens who run the show here really knows what they are talking about. Surely this must be a relatively common scenario and an Immigration Appeal Tribunal must have received an appeal on which it had to decide whether it had jurisdiction to hear the appeal. And if it refused, surely someone has appealed the point of law to a higher court.

I would like to have specific authority on this point and the Embassy should be able to supply authoritative information on which form to complete.

But does it matter?

Like hel_l it does!

Andrew

[mariner29]

I would submit a simple Tourist visa application .

Good luck

[7by7]

As explained to you in simple terms in a different thread, the type of visit visa and so the form used depends on the reason for the visit. Obviously, at least to most people, the applicant is in a far better position to judge the reason for their visit than anyone else.

As you have correctly been told, this is not a family visit as you and your wife are not visiting family.

If we fly together it's not a family visit they say. If I fly a month before or a day before then there is 'someone to visit' and thus logically a right of appeal as a 'family visit'.

No, it would not be a family visit as the family member concerned, you, would not be a UK resident.

The right of appeal is to give substance to the universal human right to family life

Article 8 of the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedomssays

Article 8 – Right to respect for private and family life.

1) Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

2)There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

(My emphasis)

A signatory state's immigration laws would come under this exemption.

Surely this must be a relatively common scenario and an Immigration Appeal Tribunal must have received an appeal on which it had to decide whether it had jurisdiction to hear the appeal. And if it refused, surely someone has appealed the point of law to a higher court.

The AIT would not have dealt with an appeal of a refusal which does not attract a right of appeal. Appeals to any other court, if any, would be referred to Article 8 as quoted above.

You may not like the current UK immigration rules, and I think we could all find something there which we didn't like, but they are what they are. If you wish to change them then you need to enlist the aide of a political party, hope that they win a general election so that they can form a government and change the law; or maybe stand for parliament yourself.

I really cannot see why you are making such a fuss over this. As the spouse of a British citizen resident in Thailand, visiting the UK in the company of said spouse it is extremely unlikely that she would be refused.

In fact I can think of only two possible reasons for a refusal in such a case:-

A poorly completed application where the necessary evidence has not been supplied.

The British spouse is living in Thailand illegally and so unlikely to return.

Surely neither of the above can possibly apply to you?

[Andrew Hicks]

As explained to you in simple terms in a different thread, the type of visit visa and so the form used depends on the reason for the visit. Obviously, at least to most people, the applicant is in a far better position to judge the reason for their visit than anyone else.

As you have correctly been told, this is not a family visit as you and your wife are not visiting family.

If we fly together it's not a family visit they say. If I fly a month before or a day before then there is 'someone to visit' and thus logically a right of appeal as a 'family visit'.

No, it would not be a family visit as the family member concerned, you, would not be a UK resident.

Surely this must be a relatively common scenario and an Immigration Appeal Tribunal must have received an appeal on which it had to decide whether it had jurisdiction to hear the appeal. And if it refused, surely someone has appealed the point of law to a higher court.

The AIT would not have dealt with an appeal of a refusal which does not attract a right of appeal. Appeals to any other court, if any, would be referred to Article 8 as quoted above.

You may not like the current UK immigration rules, and I think we could all find something there which we didn't like, but they are what they are. If you wish to change them then you need to enlist the aide of a political party, hope that they win a general election so that they can form a government and change the law; or maybe stand for parliament yourself.

I really cannot see why you are making such a fuss over this. As the spouse of a British citizen resident in Thailand, visiting the UK in the company of said spouse it is extremely unlikely that she would be refused.

In fact I can think of only two possible reasons for a refusal in such a case:-

A poorly completed application where the necessary evidence has not been supplied.

The British spouse is living in Thailand illegally and so unlikely to return.

Surely neither of the above can possibly apply to you?

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

We finally put in a general visit form and as it will be a fourth such visa. It was meticulously put together by an obsessive British lawyer lawfully retired in Thailand and so will only be refused if the Embassy is looking for any marginal reason to reject Thai women. It will take three weeks to process and not 3 to 5 days as is the boast on the VFS website.

Yes, perhaps an applicant travelling to visit UK with a British spouse does not fall within the terms of the right to appeal but this is suprising and the point is arguable. Normally where jurisdiction is an issue this is put to the court in question as a preliminary issue. An appeal would therefore be lodged and the Tribunal would decide whether or not there was a right of appeal in the case or refer it to a higher court for a determination.

What I'm saying is that I'm surprised if this issue has not alread been legally decided as it must be relatively common. One woud hope that the Embassy could tell us though as it is relevant when advising which form for applicants to fill in. The Family Visit form is intended for those having this right of appeal.

Andrew

[7by7]

We finally put in a general visit form and as it will be a fourth such visa.

You've done this three times before!! Then why the fuss this time?

BTW, as she has a history of regular travel to the UK and is the spouse of a British citizen your wife would probably be granted a longer term visa, possibly up to 10 years, were she to ask (and pay) for it.

It was meticulously put together by an obsessive British lawyer

I am sure that this person is highly competent in their chosen area of the law, but your questions/comments here show that they haven't been able to give you much useful advice on immigration law. It certainly proves the point that if seeking immigration advice from a lawyer one should ensure that one chooses an immigration specialist.

It will take three weeks to process and not 3 to 5 days as is the boast on the VFS website

Boast!? What are you talking about, boast? The website says, very clearly for all to read:

"If no interview is required, your passport should be returned to the application centre within 2-5 working days. If you need to attend interview we aim to provide an interview within 15 working days for non-settlement applications and within 12 weeks for settlement applications.

Unfortunately there will invariably be times - particularly at peak travel times- when we cannot reach these standards with all applications. Please help us to provide you with the best possible service by allowing sufficient time for your application to be processed. We recommend that you allow at least a month (for non-settlement) and 3 months (for settlement)." (It's on the How do I apply page, hidden away under the heading "Visa processing times")

(BTW, last December my wife's sister submitted her application on a Monday morning and her passport, complete with visa was ready for collection Tuesday; 1 day. From conversations with others who applied in December, this was a typical turnaround at the time. Settlement applications were averaging 5 days. It all depends on the number of applications recieved.)

Yes, perhaps an applicant travelling to visit UK with a British spouse does not fall within the terms of the right to appeal but this is suprising and the point is arguable. Normally where jurisdiction is an issue this is put to the court in question as a preliminary issue. An appeal would therefore be lodged and the Tribunal would decide whether or not there was a right of appeal in the case or refer it to a higher court for a determination.

What I'm saying is that I'm surprised if this issue has not alread been legally decided as it must be relatively common. One woud hope that the Embassy could tell us though as it is relevant when advising which form for applicants to fill in. The Family Visit form is intended for those having this right of appeal.

It has been decided, by Parliament! The immigration rules are set by Parliament. Parliament has decided which categories of visa application attract a right of appeal and which don't. Only Parliament can change this.

If you wish to take a case through to the European Court in an effort to force such a change, then good luck to you. Maybe the "obsessive British lawyer" you mention earlier could represent you?

Common? Why? Most people seem capable of answering the simple question; "Are you visiting family members who are resident in the UK?" without the aid of legal or other advice.

The embassy did tell you, as you reported in your OP! The fact that you didn't care for their (quite correct) reply is not their fault!

The family visit form is intended for those visiting their family (as defined in the rules) in the UK. Simple enoughfor most people to comprehend, surely "an obsessive British lawyer" should have had no trouble with this simple definition!

(Edited to correct typos and spelling)

Edited April 1, 2009 by 7by7