2009 Formula One Season

[b19bry]

As for Senna/Schumacher tactics in the past, we have to remember that back in those days it was not considered the way it is now. When Senna took Prost out, nobody had a problem with it. When Schumi took Hill out in 94(?) - at the time even Hill didn't say anything detrimental about the incident. It was only after the Villneuve incident Hill started saying he was taken out in the race.It was gradually becoming more unacceptable, and when Schumi tried to take Villneuve out it was finally decided that this was no longer acceptable in F1. ALL teams (and drivers) push the limits until they're finally declared unacceptable!

Utter B*ll*cks, but as you're a died in the wool Shumi fan that's hardly surprising

These tactics have always been seen as very questionable and your dead wrong to suggest otherwise. Prior to the car's becoming safer such tactics would more often than not have had fatal results so this acted as a disincentive to employ them. Once the cars (and tracks) got safer certain driver's were quick to capitalise on that.

I know at least Prost had a problem when Senna took him out and rightly so, as for Hill, he was fuming at the time, only the intervention of Barry Sheene prevented an ugly firestorm !

[rixalex]

as for Hill, he was fuming at the time, only the intervention of Barry Sheene prevented an ugly firestorm !

Bit worried as we seem to be in agreement again.

Hill was indeed fuming, but as the one who had been wronged, i think he felt it inappropriate for him to be the one making accusations. I think he thought that everyone who saw the footage would see for themselves the travesity that had been commited without him having to scream about it. I also think that he might have been hoping that someone might step in, like the FIA, and right the wrong. Alas they never did.

[b19bry]

Bit worried as we seem to be in agreement again.

Yeah.....spooky

I also think that he might have been hoping that someone might step in, like the FIA, and right the wrong. Alas they never did.

The FIA consistently failed to take any measures against this sort of thing for way too long. The current endemic cheating at all levels is a direct result of people being seen to have got away with it for so long.

I was a passionate F1 fan as a kid but much of F1 today just saddens me, too many people have come in thinking they are bigger than the 'sport' itself.

[rixalex]

The FIA consistently failed to take any measures against this sort of thing for way too long.

They are all over the place in my opinion.

For a couple of decades they basically let teams and drivers pretty much do what they wanted. Providing the team/driver carried a bit of weight, it was pretty much a free-for-all. As Irvine says, a bit of a "all's fair in love and war" type mentality - certainly on the track anyway.

To be fair though, not all drivers played dirty, and it would be unfair to tarnish them all with the same brush. Some knew what was crossing the line from a bit of cunning driving craft to unsportsmanly behaviour, some didn't. The last few pages of this thread has highlighted some of the main culprits - we know who they are/were.

Now the FIA, after years of inaction, has started actually policing drivers and teams properly - or at least making a show of it.

All well and good, but there's a complete lack of consistency in the way they deal with cases. The situation with Renault i think will prove to be no exception.

[wackysleet]

The FIA consistently failed to take any measures against this sort of thing for way too long.

They are all over the place in my opinion.

For a couple of decades they basically let teams and drivers pretty much do what they wanted. Providing the team/driver carried a bit of weight, it was pretty much a free-for-all. As Irvine says, a bit of a "all's fair in love and war" type mentality - certainly on the track anyway.

To be fair though, not all drivers played dirty, and it would be unfair to tarnish them all with the same brush. Some knew what was crossing the line from a bit of cunning driving craft to unsportsmanly behaviour, some didn't. The last few pages of this thread has highlighted some of the main culprits - we know who they are/were.

Now the FIA, after years of inaction, has started actually policing drivers and teams properly - or at least making a show of it.

All well and good, but there's a complete lack of consistency in the way they deal with cases. The situation with Renault i think will prove to be no exception.

I have always moaned about the cheating that has been going on for years and it's right, nothing has been done and very little will be done in the future by the FIA no one is going to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

When something as big as the Renault fiasco comes to light and there is so much adverse publicity in the news the FIA as always says it will be investigated and by that they actually mean {We will sweep the findings under the carpet if we think we can get away with it} so my friends please don't hold your breath too long, as I said, "money talks and bullshit walks" .

[rixalex]

ALL teams (and drivers) push the limits until they're finally declared unacceptable!

"Push the limits"??? The word i think you were looking for is "cheat". And no, not ALL of them do.

[TBWG]

Make mine a large bottle of Singha

Do Red Bull and Singha mix ... apparently Yes!

Press release

Red Bull Racing announces Race Partner

More Singha for Suzuka

Even though we are owned by an energy drink company, we recognise the value of a good beer. Red Bull Racing is therefore pleased to announce that existing supplier, Singha Beer, the longest established beer from Thailand, is increasing its support of the team for the 2009 Japanese Grand Prix, by upgrading to ‘Race Partner’.

The expanded relationship will see the Singha logo appear on the RB5 cars and on the drivers’ race suits over the Grand Prix weekend at Suzuka.

Voravud Bhirombhakdi, Strategic Partnership and Event Manager of Singha Corporation and the fourth generation of the Singha family commented: “Singha Corporation has long been the biggest supporter of Thailand’s motorsport. Becoming a Race Partner with Red Bull Racing will place Singha on the international motorsport scene, which is in line with the company’s international market expansion.”

Well now we have a Thai connection in F1 to support... I'll drink to that

TBWG

[Mosha]

Team Singha Bull, team briefings will be known as Singha Bull shit.

[Mosha]

What does Bernie the Dolt consider a balanced responce? 1 that doesn't implicate the FIA

http://msnsport.skysports.com/story/0,1952...5573940,00.html.

[TBWG]

Latest info

Renault handed suspended F1 ban

Renault have been given a two-year suspended ban for their role in fixing last year's Singapore Grand Prix.

The team were called before governing body the FIA to answer charges they had asked driver Nelson Piquet Jr to crash to help team-mate Fernando Alonso win.

Former team boss Flavio Briatore has been banned from FIA sanctioned events for an unlimited period.

Renault's ex-engineering director Pat Symonds has also been excluded from F1 for five years.

The plan to deliberately crash was their idea, Piquet told the FIA.

Briatore and Symonds parted company with Renault last week at the same time as the French car giant said they would not contest the charges.

At a hearing in Paris on Monday, the ruling World Motor Sport Council hearing found Renault "in breach of the International Sporting Code and Sporting Regulations."

A statement by the FIA added: "The council considers Renault F1's breaches relating to the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix to be of unparalleled severity.

"They not only compromised the integrity of the sport but also endangered the lives of spectators, officials, other competitors and Nelson Piquet Jr. himself.

"The WMSC considers that offences of this severity merit permanent disqualification from the FIA Formula One World Championship.

"However, in particular the steps taken by Renault F1 to identify and address the failings within its team and condemn the actions of the individuals involved, the WMSC has decided to suspend Renault F1's disqualification until the end of the 2011 season."

More soon

TBWG

edit updated info

Edited September 21, 2009 by TBWG

[wackysleet]

Latest info

Renault handed suspended F1 ban

Renault have been given a two-year suspended ban for their role in fixing last year's Singapore Grand Prix.

The team were called before governing body the FIA to answer charges they had asked driver Nelson Piquet Jr to crash to help team-mate Fernando Alonso win.

Former team boss Flavio Briatore has been banned from FIA sanctioned events for an unlimited period.

Renault's ex-engineering director Pat Symonds has also been excluded from F1 for five years.

The plan to deliberately crash was their idea, Piquet told the FIA.

Briatore and Symonds parted company with Renault last week at the same time as the French car giant said they would not contest the charges.

At a hearing in Paris on Monday, the ruling World Motor Sport Council hearing found Renault "in breach of the International Sporting Code and Sporting Regulations."

A statement by the FIA added: "The council considers Renault F1's breaches relating to the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix to be of unparalleled severity.

"They not only compromised the integrity of the sport but also endangered the lives of spectators, officials, other competitors and Nelson Piquet Jr. himself.

"The WMSC considers that offences of this severity merit permanent disqualification from the FIA Formula One World Championship.

"However, in particular the steps taken by Renault F1 to identify and address the failings within its team and condemn the actions of the individuals involved, the WMSC has decided to suspend Renault F1's disqualification until the end of the 2011 season."

More soon

TBWG

edit updated info

At which time they will gracefully retire from the sport. .

[TBWG]

Latest info

Renault handed suspended F1 ban

Renault have been given a two-year suspended ban for their role in fixing last year's Singapore Grand Prix.

The team were called before governing body the FIA to answer charges they had asked driver Nelson Piquet Jr to crash to help team-mate Fernando Alonso win.

Former team boss Flavio Briatore has been banned from FIA sanctioned events for an unlimited period.

Renault's ex-engineering director Pat Symonds has also been excluded from F1 for five years.

The plan to deliberately crash was their idea, Piquet told the FIA.

Briatore and Symonds parted company with Renault last week at the same time as the French car giant said they would not contest the charges.

At a hearing in Paris on Monday, the ruling World Motor Sport Council hearing found Renault "in breach of the International Sporting Code and Sporting Regulations."

A statement by the FIA added: "The council considers Renault F1's breaches relating to the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix to be of unparalleled severity.

"They not only compromised the integrity of the sport but also endangered the lives of spectators, officials, other competitors and Nelson Piquet Jr. himself.

"The WMSC considers that offences of this severity merit permanent disqualification from the FIA Formula One World Championship.

"However, in particular the steps taken by Renault F1 to identify and address the failings within its team and condemn the actions of the individuals involved, the WMSC has decided to suspend Renault F1's disqualification until the end of the 2011 season."

More soon

TBWG

edit updated info

Well no mention of Piquet jnr punishment, so his immunity seems to have worked, I do sympathise with him as I expect the Flav was not the best boss in the paddock to work for!

If I was Mclaren I would be hopping mad, fix a race "get out of jail free" have oppositions paperwork £50m fine! A clear case of a vendetta against Mclaren by Mosley.

However IMHO if it keeps Renault in F1 maybe its for the good, but if they still decide to leave FIA will have even more egg on its face.

TBWG

[TBWG]

The full verdict from the FIA's WMSC

Monday, September 21st 2009, 12:21 GMT

At an extraordinary meeting of the World Motor Sport Council held in Paris on 21 September 2009, the ING Renault F1 team ("Renault F1") admitted that the team had conspired with its driver Nelson Piquet Jr. to cause a deliberate crash at the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix, in breach of the International Sporting Code and F1 Sporting Regulations.

Renault F1 stated at the meeting that it had conducted a detailed internal investigation, which found that: (i) Flavio Briatore, Pat Symonds and Nelson Piquet Jr. had conspired to cause the crash; and (ii) no other team member was involved in the conspiracy.

The FIA has conducted its own detailed investigation and its findings correspond with those of Renault F1.

At the meeting of the World Motor Sport Council, Renault F1 made the following points in mitigation:

- it had accepted, at the earliest practicable opportunity, that it committed the offences with which it was charged and cooperated fully with the FIA's investigation;

- it had confirmed that Mr. Briatore and Mr. Symonds were involved in the conspiracy and ensured that they left the team;

- it apologised unreservedly to the FIA and to the sport for the harm caused by its actions;

- it committed to paying the costs incurred by the FIA in its investigation; and

- Renault (the parent company, as opposed to Renault F1) committed to making a significant contribution to FIA safety-related projects.

Nelson Piquet Jr. also apologised unreservedly to the World Motor Sport Council for his part in the conspiracy.

The following decision was taken:

The World Motor Sport Council finds that Renault F1 team members Flavio Briatore, Pat Symonds and Nelson Piquet Jr. conspired to cause a deliberate crash at the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix. The World Motor Sport Council therefore finds Renault F1, which, under article 123 of the International Sporting Code, is responsible for the actions of its employees, in breach of Articles 151© and point 2© of Chapter IV of Appendix L of the Code, and Articles 3.2, 30.3 and/or 39.1 of the Formula One Sporting Regulations.

The World Motor Sport Council considers Renault F1's breaches relating to the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix to be of unparalleled severity. Renault F1's breaches not only compromised the integrity of the sport but also endangered the lives of spectators, officials, other competitors and Nelson Piquet Jr. himself. The World Motor Sport Council considers that offences of this severity merit permanent disqualification from the FIA Formula One World Championship. However, having regard to the points in mitigation mentioned above and in particular the steps taken by Renault F1 to identify and address the failings within its team and condemn the actions of the individuals involved, the WMSC has decided to suspend Renault F1's disqualification until the end of the 2011 season. The World Motor Sport Council will only activate this disqualification if Renault F1 is found guilty of a comparable breach during that time.

In addition the World Motor Sport Council notes Renault F1's apology and agrees that the team should pay the costs of the investigation. It also accepts the offer of a significant contribution to the FIA's safety work.

As regards Mr. Briatore, the World Motor Sport Council declares that, for an unlimited period, the FIA does not intend to sanction any International Event, Championship, Cup, Trophy, Challenge or Series involving Mr. Briatore in any capacity whatsoever, or grant any license to any Team or other entity engaging Mr. Briatore in any capacity whatsoever. It also hereby instructs all officials present at FIA-sanctioned events not to permit Mr. Briatore access to any areas under the FIA's jurisdiction. Furthermore, it does not intend to renew any Superlicence granted to any driver who is associated (through a management contract or otherwise) with Mr. Briatore, or any entity or individual associated with Mr. Briatore. In determining that such instructions should be applicable for an unlimited period, the World Motor Sport Council has had regard not only to the severity of the breach in which Mr. Briatore was complicit but also to his actions in continuing to deny his participation in the breach despite all the evidence.

As regards Mr. Symonds, the World Motor Sport Council declares that, for a period of five years, the FIA does not intend to sanction any International Event, Championship, Cup, Trophy, Challenge or Series involving Mr. Symonds in any capacity whatsoever, or grant any license to any Team or other entity engaging Mr. Symonds in any capacity whatsoever. It hereby instructs, for a period of five years, all officials present at FIA-sanctioned events not to permit Mr. Symonds access to any areas under the FIA's jurisdiction. In determining that such instructions should be effective for a period of five years the World Motor Sport Council has had regard: (i) to Mr. Symonds' acceptance that he took part in the conspiracy; and (ii) to his communication to the meeting of the World Motor Sport Council that it was to his "eternal regret and shame" that he participated in the conspiracy.

As regards Mr. Piquet Jr., the World Motor Sport Council confirms the immunity from individual sanctions under the International Sporting Code in relation to this incident, which the FIA had granted to him in exchange for volunteering his evidence.

As regards Fernando Alonso, the World Motor Sport Council thanks him for cooperating with the FIA's enquiries and for attending the meeting, and concludes that Mr. Alonso was not in any way involved in Renault F1's breach of the regulations.

The World Motor Sport Council would like to thank the Stewards and legal investigation team (in particular Dorothy Cory-Wright of Sidley Austin LLP who conducted the interviews at the Belgian Grand Prix).

The full reasons for this decision, in addition to a complete recording of the proceedings before the World Motor Sport Council, will be made available shortly.

TBWG

[soihok]

At least he,ll be able to get to watch QPR more than he used to ....

[Mosha]

So they believe Alomso knew nothing of the event? Surely they jest?

[TBWG]

So they believe Alomso knew nothing of the event? Surely they jest?

Yo no sé nada

TBWG

[wackysleet]

So they believe Alomso knew nothing of the event? Surely they jest?

Yo no sé nada

TBWG

Piquet snr now appears to be backtracking on his original thoughts that Alonso was part and parcel of the plot, it could be that after the event he realised that something was afoot, none of us know, if it subsequently turns out that he was involved then he should be given the same punishment as Briatore but please don't stigmatize someone until you know for sure unless of course you want F1 posts to become like all the other shit slinging post on thai visa. . ps facts are what is needed not speculations and conjectures.

[Mosha]

I guess we wait for FB's memoires then.

[wackysleet]

I guess we wait for FB's memoires then.

Would we necessarily believe him, after all he lied about Piquet jr and threatened legal action and he really does have a track record of devious happenings .

[rixalex]

Piquet snr now appears to be backtracking on his original thoughts that Alonso was part and parcel of the plot

On what evidence?

ps facts are what is needed not speculations and conjectures.

In terms of coming to any conclusions, i think you are right Wacky. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

When you say facts are what is needed, that is true, but when facts are absent, it's quite normal for people to speculate. No different from say when Schumi stalled his car in qualifying at Monaco. It was pretty much impossible, even with engine data, to say catagorically that he had deliberately stalled the car, but there were sufficient pointers to suggest underhand tactics at play.

I think the fact that Alonso, Flav and Symonds were together, far and away the three most powerful people within this team, for a plan like this to have been undertaken without Alonso's knowledge seems rather extraordinary, especially after the event when accusations were already being made. Would Alonso not have had a quiet one-to-one with Flav or with Piquet Jnr to satisfy his curiosity, if not his conscience? I think he would have.

I think Alonso knew (just my speculation), but most likely after the event when little could be done. Should he have ratted on his team - absolutely yes, but this whole affair has been made up of people making bad decisions, and Alonso's was far from being the worst. Still, does that absolve him of punishment? I think not. At the very very least, he and the team should have the victory and the points from that weekend struck from the records. In truth, it should probably go further than that, but at the end of the day, just like Senna and Schumi of the past, Alonso is a big name in the sport, arguably the biggest right now, and that will guarantee him protection, whether he be innocent or guilty. That's the way it works.

And speaking of the points in Singapore, Renault's dirty tricks meant Lewis came in third rather than second - ie he lost 2 points. Now just imagine what sort of a fix the FIA would be in had Lewis lost the World Championship last year by a point, as he so nearly did.

As for Renault's punishment, completely agree with TWBG, it's a joke, bearing in mind the punishment dished out to McClaren. Goes back to what i was saying earlier. No consistency or fairness.

The FIA needs a complete shake up, from top to bottom.

[Maejo Man]

OK the penalties have been dished out, and I presume they are effective immediately. The FIA release srated......

"For an unlimited period, the FIA does not intend to sanction any International Event, Championship, Cup, Trophy, Challenge or Series involving Mr. Briatore in any capacity whatsoever, or grant any license to any Team or other entity engaging Mr. Briatore in any capacity whatsoever.

"It also hereby instructs all officials present at FIA-sanctioned events not to permit Mr. Briatore access to any areas under the FIA's jurisdiction.

"Furthermore, it does not intend to renew any Superlicence granted to any driver who is associated (through a management contract or otherwise) with Mr. Briatore, or any entity or individual associated with Mr. Briatore.

He currently has I think three drivers that he is managing, including the petulant Piquet Jnr. Naturally they will be allowed to finish the current season, but to renew their licences next year they will be looking for new managers.

[wackysleet]

rixalex.

Actually the statement by Piquet snr in regards to Alonso was in Pitpass. In respect of Shumacher I think if the engine data had been available to the FIA or more importantly they had asked for it that may have been a different matter but Shumacher was too big a fish and it was just left to the public to make up their own minds.

I have in a previous post commented that it was quite possible or even likely that Alonso realised that it had been fixed in his favour and of course he may well have been a willing participant, I don't know but my real concern is that there are so many lies doing the rounds and people not being punished that it will soon be the norm to cheat, or is it already too late.

[rixalex]

rixalex.

Actually the statement by Piquet snr in regards to Alonso was in Pitpass.

Any chance of a quote?

In respect of Shumacher I think if the engine data had been available to the FIA or more importantly they had asked for it that may have been a different matter but Shumacher was too big a fish and it was just left to the public to make up their own minds.

Not quite sure what you are getting at here because they did penalise him 10 grid places - effectively declaring him guilty. One of the rare occasions when he didn't get away with it.

[wackysleet]

rixalex.

Actually the statement by Piquet snr in regards to Alonso was in Pitpass.

Any chance of a quote?

In respect of Shumacher I think if the engine data had been available to the FIA or more importantly they had asked for it that may have been a different matter but Shumacher was too big a fish and it was just left to the public to make up their own minds.

Not quite sure what you are getting at here because they did penalise him 10 grid places - effectively declaring him guilty. One of the rare occasions when he didn't get away with it.

rixalex. www.pitpass.com article dated 18/09/09 Piquet snr backtracks on Alonso claims, in the same story Moseley says he thinks Alonso did'nt know.

[rixalex]

rixalex. www.pitpass.com article dated 18/09/09 Piquet snr backtracks on Alonso claims, in the same story Moseley says he thinks Alonso did'nt know.

Rather than back-tracking, it read to me more like diluting what he was claiming and covering his arse in case of law-suit.

Piquet Snr has basically gone from saying that "Alonso must have known" to "Alonso must have suspected".

His argument is how could Alonso simply have accepted their race strategy for that weekend of fueling light and pitting early when they were near the pack of the pack (15th) and likely to be held up a lot in those early laps. He has a point there. They (Flav and Alonso) must have discussed the strategy and if Alonso really was in the dark, Flav must come up with a convincing lie to trick a man of Alonso's experience.

Going back to what i was saying about scratching Renault's results from that race, has anyone heard anything about this? I myself haven't and can't quite believe that it seems like they are letting Alonso's victory stand. In terms of rectifying the wrong, that would surely be the first thing to address.

[wackysleet]

rixalex. www.pitpass.com article dated 18/09/09 Piquet snr backtracks on Alonso claims, in the same story Moseley says he thinks Alonso did'nt know.

Rather than back-tracking, it read to me more like diluting what he was claiming and covering his arse in case of law-suit.

Piquet Snr has basically gone from saying that "Alonso must have known" to "Alonso must have suspected".

His argument is how could Alonso simply have accepted their race strategy for that weekend of fueling light and pitting early when they were near the pack of the pack (15th) and likely to be held up a lot in those early laps. He has a point there. They (Flav and Alonso) must have discussed the strategy and if Alonso really was in the dark, Flav must come up with a convincing lie to trick a man of Alonso's experience.

Going back to what i was saying about scratching Renault's results from that race, has anyone heard anything about this? I myself haven't and can't quite believe that it seems like they are letting Alonso's victory stand. In terms of rectifying the wrong, that would surely be the first thing to address.

When I read what Piquet sr said I had the same sentiments as you, here's a man covering his arse, but why, what speaks volumes to me is that neither sr or jr has any definite proof as to Alonsos involvement if they had they would not have moderated their language, I'm sure the pair may well have looked forward to their day in court and opened up another can of worms.

The fueling strategy I cannot say as I simply do not know the reasoning behind it or indeed a 2 stop over a 3 stop or visa versa.

rixalex, I respect what you have to say and perhaps the results should be looked at, fortunately it didn't affect the outcome of the championship my concern would be, what if Alonso was innocent and the race positions were altered where would you place Alonso because having placed Shumacher at 10 on the grid was perhaps a little unfair to the other drivers and I can't remember if Ferrari challenged the FIAs decision, perhaps he should have started from the pit lane.

I am an Alonso fan but still believe whoever cheats should be punished, the problem is that an awful lot of good drivers are being found out in one way or another so I will change horse and support Vettel.

[wackysleet]

A concern I have had in the past that has happened on several occassions and a prime example was when Barrichello slowed right down near the finish to allow Shumacher to go past and get the extra points the same scenario happened with Couthard while at Maclaren, this also is altering the real outcome of the race.

[soihok]

At least he,ll be able to get to watch QPR more than he used to ....

And then again ,, maybe not

http://www.teamtalk.com/football/story/0,1...5574826,00.html

Woops!!

[Mosha]

2010 calander from a place I won't name cos they don't like me

Formula One 2010 calendar

Mar 14 - Bahrain (Sakhir)

Mar 28 - Australia (Melbourne, starting at 1700 local time)

Apr 4 - Malaysia (Sepang, starting at 1600 local time)

Apr 18 - China (Shanghai)

May 9 - Spain (Barcelona)

May 23 - Monaco (Monte Carlo)

May 30 - Turkey (Istanbul)

Jun 13 - Canada (Montreal, provisional)

Jun 27 - Europe (Valencia)

Jul 11 - Great Britain (Donington Park)

Jul 25 - Germany (Hockenheim)

Aug 1 - Hungary (Budapest)

Aug 29 - Belgium (Spa-Francorchamps)

Sep 12 - Italy (Monza)

Sep 26 - Singapore (starting at 2000 local time)

Oct 3 - Japan (Suzuka)

Oct 17 - South Korea (Yongam)

Oct 31 - Abu Dhabi (Yas Marina, starting at 1700 local time)

Nov 14 - Brazil (Interlagos)

[soihok]

Donnington park will really have to pull their finger out if the race is due to be on that date next year.

Anyone going there will endure a traffic nightmare also getting in and out.....its bad enough getting in and out of the Moto GP , and there are thousands of motorbikes.

Change all these bikes to cars and add on more visitors due to the popularity of F1.

Better stay home and get the beers in.

I was there in July and saw no construction going on.

Thanks for the dates Mosha

Edited September 22, 2009 by soihok