2009 Formula One Season

[rixalex]

With all due respect to the fine year JB is having (and yes some deserved redemption) but goes to show us more than ever before it's the car the makes F1 these days.

When former WC's like Alonso, Kimi and Hamilton can't even get close to the Brawn (except for Barric ), well...kudos to Brawn for building a monster of a car.

Yes i completely agree with that.

This season for me is a strange one, and not just because of the terrible cars that Ferrari and McClaren have built.

What's strange is that having been such a big fan of Button in the early days of his career, his current success is leaving me all a bit cold. I think there are two reasons for that.

One is that when Button came on the scene there wasn't much in the way of up and coming British talent. Since then however Hamilton emerged and showed the difference between a good driver and a great. Senna will always be a bit special, but Hamilton has showed enough to suggest he could, given time, also become a legend of the sport. Will Button ever be classed as a legend - i suspect not.

The second reason i'm unmoved by Button's success is that he is not only driving the best car in the field, but the best car by a country mile. Of course that's not his fault, but it's taking away from his performances. Were McClaren, Ferrari and Renault, with proven and world-class drivers like Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton, up there fighting it out, perhaps not winning, but making a bit of a battle of it, Button would be given a lot more credit for his driving.

This season is rapidly becoming processional.

[F1fanatic]

With all due respect to the fine year JB is having (and yes some deserved redemption) but goes to show us more than ever before it's the car the makes F1 these days.

When former WC's like Alonso, Kimi and Hamilton can't even get close to the Brawn (except for Barric ), well...kudos to Brawn for building a monster of a car.

Yes i completely agree with that.

This season for me is a strange one, and not just because of the terrible cars that Ferrari and McClaren have built.

What's strange is that having been such a big fan of Button in the early days of his career, his current success is leaving me all a bit cold. I think there are two reasons for that.

One is that when Button came on the scene there wasn't much in the way of up and coming British talent. Since then however Hamilton emerged and showed the difference between a good driver and a great. Senna will always be a bit special, but Hamilton has showed enough to suggest he could, given time, also become a legend of the sport. Will Button ever be classed as a legend - i suspect not.

The second reason i'm unmoved by Button's success is that he is not only driving the best car in the field, but the best car by a country mile. Of course that's not his fault, but it's taking away from his performances. Were McClaren, Ferrari and Renault, with proven and world-class drivers like Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton, up there fighting it out, perhaps not winning, but making a bit of a battle of it, Button would be given a lot more credit for his driving.

This season is rapidly becoming processional.

Hamilton is not even close to being 'great' yet!

He won the championship last year in the best (arguably) car. This year - especially in the last 2 races - he's done nothing to prove himself as a 'great' driver.

In an excellent car (like Button) he excelled, in a mid-runner - he hasn't (like Button).

Give him time and experience and things may change, but at the moment his detractors are right - in a mid-field car he's not exceptional.

[wackysleet]

in a good car, [/i]he is not a 'great' driver as he performed so badly in an under-performing car last year. Rubens out-performed him last year.

Having said that, in the best car by a country mile he hasn't put a foot wrong - unlike Rubens!

F1, what is your definition of a great driver, Senna,Prost, Shumacher or any other multiple world champions in the last 40yrs so tell me that there wasn't one of the drivers that was not in the 1st or 2nd best car of the day, yes fitness is important but it's all relevant to the times they were racing, put a good driver in a crap car and witness what you have, with Ferrari and Mclaren as examples, if Jenson had been in a good car from the start of his career then things would have been different just like Hamilton over the last couple of seasons.

[MJo]

Hamilton is not even close to being 'great' yet!

He won the championship last year in the best (arguably) car. This year - especially in the last 2 races - he's done nothing to prove himself as a 'great' driver.

In an excellent car (like Button) he excelled, in a mid-runner - he hasn't (like Button).

Give him time and experience and things may change, but at the moment his detractors are right - in a mid-field car he's not exceptional.

Agree, actually Kovalainen has been driving better than Hamilton lately. As they say "in F1 you are as good as your last race"

[F1fanatic]

F1, what is your definition of a great driver, Senna,Prost, Shumacher or any other multiple world champions in the last 40yrs so tell me that there wasn't one of the drivers that was not in the 1st or 2nd best car of the day, yes fitness is important but it's all relevant to the times they were racing, put a good driver in a crap car and witness what you have, with Ferrari and Mclaren as examples, if Jenson had been in a good car from the start of his career then things would have been different just like Hamilton over the last couple of seasons.

Unfortunately I started watching F1 after Senna and Prost, but have read (and watched) retrospectively.

In view of this I have no opinion of Senna/Prost, but have watched Schumi's races from almost the beginning and he did unbelievably well in a second rate car.

The Benneton was not the best car on the grid, but HE won the championship anyway (perhaps by dubious means - but nobody would deny that he was a great racer).

When his car was 1st or 2nd best (2000-2003), he won the championship, but that's not really the point. He did unbelievably well in a poor car too (the Ferrari when he joined the team).

That is why he will be remembered as a 'great'. He out-performed poor cars and made the most of the best cars. To date, both Button and Hamilton can make the most of the best car, but do nothing in a poor car.

[rixalex]

Agree, actually Kovalainen has been driving better than Hamilton lately.

Weren't you the one who was saying recently that Kovalainen was better than Micheal Schumacher on the basis of some insignificant show race?!!! Forgive me therefore for not taking you too seriously.

All you have to do is look at the points both Hamilton and Kovalainen have - anything other statistic you want to throw my way is secondary and in the scheme of things, meaningless.

[F1fanatic]

Agree, actually Kovalainen has been driving better than Hamilton lately.

Weren't you the one who was saying recently that Kovalainen was better than Micheal Schumacher on the basis of some insignificant show race?!!! Forgive me therefore for not taking you too seriously.

All you have to do is look at the points both Hamilton and Kovalainen have - anything other statistic you want to throw my way is secondary and in the scheme of things, meaningless.

That was why I thought McLaren were catching up with Brawn. At the race in Monaco Heikki qualified (IIRC) 7th, so bearing in mind he's done bugg..r all for 2 years I thought the McLaren can't be that bad - Kovi is cr.p but he still qualified 7th!! Hammilton just scr...d it up.

In Turkey he outqualified Hamilton again! Kovi may be rubbish, but Hammi's not any better at the moment.

[rixalex]

In Turkey he outqualified Hamilton again! Kovi may be rubbish, but Hammi's not any better at the moment.

I didn't see the lap that Kovi did to get through to the second qualifying session in Turkey. The lap i saw Lewis do though, the car was right on the ragged edge and i don't think it could have been pushed any faster. Perhaps Kovi had the car set up different/better. Whatever the reason, come the end of the race, yet again Kovi finished behind Lewis. That says it all - one of the rare occasions when he out-qualifies Lewis, he still ends up behind him.

As for Lewis not being "a great" - perhaps i should have qualified my comment - i agree that he can not yet be considered "a great" - but is he a great driver? - yes i believe he is. Along with Alonso and Raikkonen from the present field of drivers, he has something special that the others either don't have or have yet to show. Some are coming close though. Vettel in particular has impressed this season, and if he can tidy up some of his errors, i think he'll be one for the future.

[wackysleet]

As for Lewis not being "a great" - perhaps i should have qualified my comment - i agree that he can not yet be considered "a great" - but is he a great driver? - yes i believe he is. Along with Alonso and Raikkonen from the present field of drivers, he has something special that the others either don't have or have yet to show. Some are coming close though. Vettel in particular has impressed this season, and if he can tidy up some of his errors, i think he'll be one for the future.

I think Vettel is the best wet weather driver on the grid at the moment and Buemi?? is also a good up and coming driver, you may well see a few of last seasons big names looking for a more competative car for next season unless their present rides show a vast improvement.

[MJo]

rixalex, your obviously wearing your union jack boxers again.

If you read fanatic's post, it says that Hamilton is not one of the greats yet and i fully agree. Time will tell if he really is to become one of the greats.

And if you read mine concentrate on the following part "in F1 you are as good as your last race" and tell us who was quicker on sundays's race. Kovi or Hamilton. So yes, i was taking a piss as it happens to be so that Kovi beat Hamilton. Maybe Lewis needs few years to learn how to set up the car

I never claimed Kovi is better driver than schumi. I just point out that he was faster than him in the race of champions, which is not completely only for show. You also might be interested to know that Kovi has participated in several national level rally competitions as a co-driver so he propably has fair deal more miles under his belt in rally car than schumi.

But then again was it you who claimed Hamilton is such a fast and good driver he can beat anyone even when his car is not the fastest ?

[wackysleet]

The second reason i'm unmoved by Button's success is that he is not only driving the best car in the field, but the best car by a country mile. Of course that's not his fault, but it's taking away from his performances. Were McClaren, Ferrari and Renault, with proven and world-class drivers like Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton, up there fighting it out, perhaps not winning, but making a bit of a battle of it, Button would be given a lot more credit for his driving.

This season is rapidly becoming processional.

Rixalex most if not all seasons have been a procession, normally between Mclaren and Ferrari certainly in the last few years.

Alonso who I think is an excellent driver won the W.Cs when he had probably the best car, { Renault} the same with Raikonen and Ferrai, Hamilton with Mclaren no other cars even came close, in fact very similar situation this year with Brawn and the Red bull team, the others are just also rans and don't you think your being a little unfair to Jenson as the same argument could be levied at the three drivers you mentioned over the last couple of years.

[wackysleet]

Unfortunately I started watching F1 after Senna and Prost, but have read (and watched) retrospectively.

In view of this I have no opinion of Senna/Prost, but have watched Schumi's races from almost the beginning and he did unbelievably well in a second rate car.

The Benneton was not the best car on the grid, but HE won the championship anyway (perhaps by dubious means - but nobody would deny that he was a great racer).

When his car was 1st or 2nd best (2000-2003), he won the championship, but that's not really the point. He did unbelievably well in a poor car too (the Ferrari when he joined the team).

That is why he will be remembered as a 'great'. He out-performed poor cars and made the most of the best cars. To date, both Button and Hamilton can make the most of the best car, but do nothing in a poor car.

F1 the only real second rate car Shumacher was ever in was the Jordan, his first ever F1 race, he retired with clutch trouble on the first lap {1991}.

Second race he jumped ship on to Benetton, Ford Cosworth engine, 1992 won his first grand prix with Benetton, Ford Cosworth engine, 1994 his first world title with Benetton again a Ford Cosworth engine, 1995 won his second championship again with Benetton but this time a Renault enginethe earlier 90s were dominated by the WILLIAMS team using the Renault engine, 1996 he moved to Ferrari who not having won a championship for a number of years had ample time and resources to get their engine and car right in time for Shumacher, another point is that the Cosworth engine in various cars has been second only to Ferrari for the number of grand prix wins, but that does not detract from him being a great driver, it's just that he cheats, you may remember the scandal and accusations levied at him over traction control.

[wackysleet]

When his car was 1st or 2nd best (2000-2003), he won the championship, but that's not really the point. He did unbelievably well in a poor car too (the Ferrari when he joined the team).

F1, Shumacher moved to Ferrari in 1996 and won three races and didn't become W.C. again until 2000 where he won five consecutive W.C.s with the best car and he may be the best driver the sport has ever seen but it's difficult to make your comparisons with Jenson and Lewis, apart from the Jordan, Shumacher has never had a car as bad as last years Honda or this years Mclaren.

[rixalex]

And if you read mine concentrate on the following part "in F1 you are as good as your last race" and tell us who was quicker on sundays's race. Kovi or Hamilton.

Hamilton finished ahead of Kovi, so i'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

Maybe Lewis needs few years to learn how to set up the car

When Lewis out qualifies Kovi (almost every race by the way), it's because he's getting preferential treatment from the team, but when Kovi out qualifies Lewis (once in a month of Sundays!), it's because Kovi is some sort of a set-up master???

Forget about my Union Jack Boxers - get out of those Finnish underpants!

You also might be interested to know that Kovi has participated in several national level rally competitions as a co-driver so he propably has fair deal more miles under his belt in rally car than schumi.

Forgive me but no, i don't find that even slightly interesting.

But then again was it you who claimed Hamilton is such a fast and good driver he can beat anyone even when his car is not the fastest ?

Still believe that if he has a car with enough pace, he can squeeze that extra tenth out of the machine that makes the difference between being an also run (a la your friend Kovi) and being a World Champion. At the moment however he is being asked to squeeze and extra 8 or 9 tenths out of the machine just to get in the points.

[rixalex]

rixalex most if not all seasons have been a procession, normally between Mclaren and Ferrari certainly in the last few years.

Alonso who I think is an excellent driver won the W.Cs when he had probably the best car, { Renault} the same with Raikonen and Ferrai, Hamilton with Mclaren no other cars even came close, in fact very similar situation this year with Brawn and the Red bull team, the others are just also rans and don't you think your being a little unfair to Jenson as the same argument could be levied at the three drivers you mentioned over the last couple of years.

You make your points well and i can't disagree with too much of what you say - and you are right, i might be being a little unfair on Jenson.

The fact is though that his advantage over the rest of the pack is significantly more than has been the case with winning cars of recent seasons past. Reminds me somewhat of when Hill won in the Williams. Hill was a fast and smooth driver but that was about it - not a great deal of flair - and yet he had a car that walked to the Championship with ease.

The factor the car plays is always going to be massive - just that some seasons it is larger than others.

[MJo]

Sorry my mistake, did not notice there was team orders in the end Also it was reported that Hamilton did not find good settings on qualifying thus dropped out already in Q1. Kovi obviously did as he got thru, only to be given wrong tyres and dropped out from Q2. Even MW admitted that he should have been in top 10 had they given him soft tyre that was indeed faster in Q2. Did not claim Kovi to be any set-up master, he just found better set up than Lewis.

My point still is that Hamilton has not proved to be anything else than a champion who won it with fastest car last year. Only time will tell if he's gonna be one of the greats. I rank Alonso and Rosberg quite high on my list of drivers who can get best out of a car that is not par and difficult to drive.

I just read an interview with Aki Hintsa who is a McLaren team doctor and takes care of both the drivers physical and also mental condition. BTW he is also a Finn Anyways he admitted openly that this year will show if Hamilton is going to be one of the greats as if he can handle the pressure from himself as world champ not winning at the moment and also from the press etc he will be very strong mentally and will propably win several more championships providing he has car capable of doing it. Then again he said that if he crumbles under the pressure now, he will never be mentally strong enough and with lost confidence will actually come slower and make more mistakes. Can take a look if this interview is anywhere in english which i doubt... But for me it's common sense and he's right. This season will teach Hamilton a lesson and if he's humble enough and takes it in correct way he will be very strong in the future. Personally i'm not sure which way it will go, i have noticed that he has been complaining about the car a lot in public and also last two races his performance has not been up to a level it used to be. This is something that others in same situation have not done. And that inludes Raikkonen and Massa as well as Kovi. They all are repeating the same "we are working on it and it will be better soon" mantra instead of complaining.

I have taken out my finnish underwear now and believe it of not i'm wearing ferrari/kimi shirt as i write this !

[JetsetBkk]

...kudos to Brawn for building a monster of a car.

I'm still waiting for the stewards to find the nitrous injector...

[ignis]

The second reason i'm unmoved by Button's success is that he is not only driving the best car in the field, but the best car by a country mile.

Look at the facts... There are 2 Brawn cars, yet it is Button that is No:1, even in Turkey Barrichello was some 2 laps lighter on fuel, and not for the 1st time this season, yet he qualified behind the heavier car of Button.

When Barrichello was driving as team mate with Schumi they were often 1 & 2 but Schumi was NOT always No:1 but he mostly won because Barrichello was ordered to let him pass

[rixalex]

Look at the facts... There are 2 Brawn cars, yet it is Button that is No:1, even in Turkey Barrichello was some 2 laps lighter on fuel, and not for the 1st time this season, yet he qualified behind the heavier car of Button.

I agree. Button is doing a great job of proving himself against his team mate.

When Barrichello was driving as team mate with Schumi they were often 1 & 2 but Schumi was NOT always No:1 but he mostly won because Barrichello was ordered to let him pass

Regardless of all that, Schumi was obviously a much better driver.

As i've already said on this thread, teams don't give preferential treatment to the slower of the two drivers... ever. And what's more, teams with the best cars don't give their drives to slow drivers - they give them to the best drivers at that time because they can afford them and because the best drivers naturally want to drive the best cars.

In the unlikely event of Brawn continuing their complete domination, their driver line-up will change and Rubens will be the first to go - this car has come ten years too late for him.

[bkkjames]

...kudos to Brawn for building a monster of a car.

I'm still waiting for the stewards to find the nitrous injector...

You forget - the stewards still think Brawn = ferrari.

[Mosha]

What ticks me off just of late is Alex Yoong, and his "I wish another team would win because it's getting boring now". I don't recall such stupid comments last year when it was McLaren and that other team sponsored by the F(errari)IA.

[rixalex]

What ticks me off just of late is Alex Yoong, and his "I wish another team would win because it's getting boring now". I don't recall such stupid comments last year when it was McLaren and that other team sponsored by the F(errari)IA.

In fairness though, last year it was as you say two teams dominating, so it was more interesting in the sense of not knowing which of those teams/drivers would prevail. We've gone from having four drivers in with a shot, to two - and now rapidly becoming one. Not really progress for the sport.

[wackysleet]

What ticks me off just of late is Alex Yoong, and his "I wish another team would win because it's getting boring now". I don't recall such stupid comments last year when it was McLaren and that other team sponsored by the F(errari)IA.

In fairness though, last year it was as you say two teams dominating, so it was more interesting in the sense of not knowing which of those teams/drivers would prevail. We've gone from having four drivers in with a shot, to two - and now rapidly becoming one. Not really progress for the sport.

rixalex that is a valid point but if you care to go back to the 70s then it's nearly always been two teams vying for top spot, but as you and I have both discussed in the past who wants the other formula A ? how boring is that, but where do we go from here, much wider tracks and corners could help possibly with overtaking without going off a reasonably safe line, perhaps longer straights who has some ideas?.

[Mosha]

Trouble is with widening the track, the racing line will always dictate the fastest way around a lap. As an aside in the current system, does anyone know what the lowest ponts attained by a F1 champ?

Edited June 9, 2009 by Mosha

[MJo]

Trouble is with widening the track, the racing line will always dictate the fastest way around a lap. As an aside in the current system, does anyone know what the lowest ponts attained by a F1 champ?

Schumi scored 148 points in 2004 that being the most points in one season record. He also holds the record for most wins in one season for same year 2004. 13 wins out of 18 races.

Difficult to say who had least points. Just a wild quess here but it might be Keke Rosberg in 1982. He won only one race that year (Switzerland) also in -82 season there was 11 different winners out of 16 GP's.

Edited June 9, 2009 by MJo

[wackysleet]

Trouble is with widening the track, the racing line will always dictate the fastest way around a lap. As an aside in the current system, does anyone know what the lowest ponts attained by a F1 champ?

Agreed but frequently drivers go into corners very close and if one is getting a tow or he is using Kers then he may be able to pass, lots of times you see some of the fastest cars starting from the pit lane or at the back of the grid for various reasons and have great difficulty passing slower cars.

[wackysleet]

Trouble is with widening the track, the racing line will always dictate the fastest way around a lap. As an aside in the current system, does anyone know what the lowest ponts attained by a F1 champ?

1950, drivers name Nino Farina total points 30, but the number of races over the years has increased a lot, 1982 Keke Rosberg won with 44 points.

[F1fanatic]

The second reason i'm unmoved by Button's success is that he is not only driving the best car in the field, but the best car by a country mile.

Look at the facts... There are 2 Brawn cars, yet it is Button that is No:1, even in Turkey Barrichello was some 2 laps lighter on fuel, and not for the 1st time this season, yet he qualified behind the heavier car of Button.

When Barrichello was driving as team mate with Schumi they were often 1 & 2 but Schumi was NOT always No:1 but he mostly won because Barrichello was ordered to let him pass

I'm definitely not as forgiving as Rivalex - you seriously think that Schumi "mostly won because Barrichello was ordered to let him pass"!!

Forgive me, but you're totally off your head!!

[F1fanatic]

F1 the only real second rate car Shumacher was ever in was the Jordan, his first ever F1 race, he retired with clutch trouble on the first lap {1991}.

Second race he jumped ship on to Benetton, Ford Cosworth engine, 1992 won his first grand prix with Benetton, Ford Cosworth engine, 1994 his first world title with Benetton again a Ford Cosworth engine, 1995 won his second championship again with Benetton but this time a Renault enginethe earlier 90s were dominated by the WILLIAMS team using the Renault engine, 1996 he moved to Ferrari who not having won a championship for a number of years had ample time and resources to get their engine and car right in time for Shumacher, another point is that the Cosworth engine in various cars has been second only to Ferrari for the number of grand prix wins, but that does not detract from him being a great driver, it's just that he cheats, you may remember the scandal and accusations levied at him over traction control.

Schumi did not exactly "jump ship" to Benetton, THEY recruited him on the evidence of his unbelievable qualifying lap in a dog of a car! How many drivers can boast that they joined a team and on the basis of one qualifying lap were IMMEDIATELY scooped up by a far better team? It says something about his exceptional performance.

Am completely unable to argue engines, but the Benetton was not the best CAR on the grid during his stay at the team. Few people will deny this. He won 2 championships anyway, as I said before perhaps by dubious means. Be this as it may, it doesn't detract (IMO) from some of his incredible races during those years that proved he was a worthy WDC.

When he moved to Ferrari the car was a dog, and remained so for a couple of years - they did not get it right in time for Schumacher!

Sorry if I'm being a bit pedantic about this, but whilst I'm pleased for Button doing so well in a great car, I think it needs to be remembered that the 'greats' do well in a lesser car.

[wackysleet]

[quote name='F1fanatic

Schumi did not exactly "jump ship" to Benetton, THEY recruited him on the evidence of his unbelievable qualifying lap in a dog of a car! How many drivers can boast that they joined a team and on the basis of one qualifying lap were IMMEDIATELY scooped up by a far better team? It says something about his exceptional performance.

Am completely unable to argue engines, but the Benetton was not the best CAR on the grid during his stay at the team. Few people will deny this. He won 2 championships anyway, as I said before perhaps by dubious means. Be this as it may, it doesn't detract (IMO) from some of his incredible races during those years that proved he was a worthy WDC.

When he moved to Ferrari the car was a dog, and remained so for a couple of years - they did not get it right in time for Schumacher!

Sorry if I'm being a bit pedantic about this, but whilst I'm pleased for Button doing so well in a great car, I think it needs to be remembered that the 'greats' do well in a lesser car.

Well F1 we will have to beg to differ but as for him joining Benetton from Jordan, Jordan went to court over the contract and as for Benettons car not being too good I think history shows your wrong on that, but although you admit Shumacher pulled more than his fair share of stunts you seem to dismiss that and hold him up as a beacon of light, sorry but a cheat is a cheat however many times he wins the WDC.