Canadian Condo Owner Claims False Arrest

[paperwerks]

Another point that has not been mentioned here is that the new condominium law guarantees that anyone whose name is on the chanot is eligible to be a kammagan.

So, we have one thai law that clearly says a foreigner can do it and another thai law which clearly says the foreigner is not allowed to do it.

This is typical for things in thailand. If you chose to buy a condo here and wish to be on the committee as a way of watching over your investment you must accept this contradiction.

I think to answer the question is that it must be litigated and if litigated more than once you would not necessariliy get the same result.

Also, I expect if you asked 10 different Thai lawyers you would get 10 different answers. In Thailand the laws are completely flexible and not cast in stone. Thai lawyers know this which is why they so wishy-washy and are careful to never give a direct answer.

Bottom line is foreigners have little or no legal rights when they make an enemy here. One must also accept this if one chooses to live here.

[golfnut]

Always seems to be those individuals that want to impose their 1st world countries ethics and morals in the LOS.

not sure what 1st world standards i am apparently applying to the reported situation???

it seems like he is the one wanting to apply different rules to the situation

If you really care about this country and it's people you could at least try to be a little concerned over the many injustices that go on here, whether its between expats/thais or thais/thais. Rather than blame this guy, tell it like it reads unless you know something the rest of us don't this is a pretty simple case of extortion, at best. I mean come on we have a situation here that can be pulled on any one of us expats here, for merely painting your house.

Caring about 'this country and its people'? you know me so well - to care i should grieve over a farang who appears to have broken the law and is moaning about it and talking down the laws of the country he is a guest in without acknowledging his own role in it all?

I am telling it like it reads (it is PG afterall) - (as reported) the guy is moaning about a situation he has got himself into. Yes he is getting rolled over because of a dispute and in an ideal world that would not occur - rather the laws would be consistently and forcefully enforced across the board (and perhaps the laws might be different?) (BUT they are not). However he knew (or should have) known the rules (both written and real world - including sparodic enforcement) - if he didn't like them he should not have played the game. Now he's got burnt he's moaning about it??

no one forced him to do anything - many farangs rely on what others do and have done without apparent problem - thats fine but if for whatever reason the knock on the door comes and the authorities scrutinise what you have done (however unofficially you might think its been 'encouraged' in the first place) you should have the grace to accept the consequences (since surely you assessed that risk at the outset - if not, more fool you)

I think you are forgetting this guy is basically protecting himself and other owners interests for nothing and to be prosecuted for this in any country is absurd. If he was actually working for money that would be a different story. I would be surprised if even the thai justice system goes all the way with this case as it is a bad signal to send to foreign investors.

[golfnut]

Just read this line on the Department of Employment, Thailand site:-

1. Definition

"Alien" means a natural person who is not of Thai nationality;

" Work " means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

This implies all foreigners are guilty of working without a work permit at some point

[taxexile]

Another point that has not been mentioned here is that the new condominium law guarantees that anyone whose name is on the chanot is eligible to be a kammagan.

correct.

from the 2008 condominium act.

it might be that the canadian was acting as a proxy manager , in which case due to the nature of a managers duties , work permit laws could be seen as being broken......especially if he has stepped on the wrong toes.

Edited March 26, 2009 by taxexile

[thaiwanderer]

I will leave aside discussion of the rights or wrongs of foreign investment, laws affecting foreigners etc. (for the moment!).

The precise role he served and the reason for the arrest are not at all clear from the PG report. It is impossible for him to be a 'juristic person' of the others in the way the report suggests. He might be an officer or representative of a 'juristic person', the only 'juristic person' per se he can be is his ordinary self Mr. Nixon.

Unless he is merely a personal (in his own name) owner occupier of a single unit, he could very easily find himself in a position in which he requires a work permit (yes its due to the wide wording of the labour laws which are sparodically enforced but I will leave general discussion of the whys and wherefores of that to to the side for the moment).

The other possibilities are as follows (not all mutually exclusive):-

1. He owns the units by way of a company (thai or foreign) - any actions by him as director etc. of such a company is 'work'

2. He owns the units in his personal name - pretty much any action he takes in managing this investment would be 'work'

3. He acts as a proxy for owner/s of other units in casting their votes (he can only be a proxy for 3 other units) - 'work'

4. He is on the Condominium Corporate Board - 'work'

5. He is the Condominium Corporate Board Chairman / Vice Chairman - 'work'

6. He is the Condominium Manager - 'work'

(much of this is not normally a problem but in his case he has got into a dispute so the door knock has come)

Interestingly the maximum penalty for working without a work permit is 5 years imprisonment for the Employee and only a fine for the Employer.

Also IIRC if he is convicted of this he may be forced to dispose of the units (and depending on the circumstances barred from purchasing another condominium unit anywhere in Thailand?)- and with a forced disposal at the very least the monetary price will of course suffer.

The PG report talks of his merely wishing to act as a safety net for the common interests of the joint owners - without acknowledging his own 5 votes, the votes of the other joint owners and the protections afforded by the condominium acts.

Its all well and good standing up for your rights but before you start throwing stones.........

Edited March 26, 2009 by thaiwanderer

[CFIT]

Just read this line on the Department of Employment, Thailand site:-

1. Definition

"Alien" means a natural person who is not of Thai nationality;

" Work " means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

He is F***ed then.

"Exerting energy, or using knowledge.. " So is writing on an internet discussion forum , work? Is breathing? Yes, this is a law designed for subjective enforcement.

Sure glad I got that MMSH visa last year, may be time to head south ..Thailand is really making it clear foreigners are not welcome and will be subject to extreme harassment with no recourse...Yes I agree, let the hard times fall , country's policies are begging for it. .

[yabaaaa]

I clean my teeth twice a day can i get arrested? maybe I should hire a Thai valet, how about wiping my rs?

[blaiz]

Thaiwanderer,

apologies for any stones cast your way, they were in a dispersion pattern

[bungy007]

If true, what next?

Can we get arrested for making a cup of coffee or washing dishes?

Don't ask for whom the bell tolls...

[bungy007]

I don't think sitting on the mgmt board in an unpaid capacity can be termed work within the context of the law. He was after all over seeing his investment and ensuring that he and other condo owners were able to hire Thais to do the management. If he is accused of working, then the person that oversees his/her domestic staff is working when he does their pay and hiring. The management board serves to provide a voice to the unit owners. What the aggrieved management company has done is say F you to the owners and most likely set out charging fees that cannot be challenged. With reports like this, I can't believe people still insist on buying condo units.

Exactly. Then when you see the money isn't used on condos to keep them in pristine condition surely the penny dops? I mean, look around and you see that the buildings just aren't well kept yet I'm sure that the owners are paying a tidy sum in management fees.

[bungy007]

Wish a few Kareoke singers would get the same treatment,,,,after all singing is work.

Granted. However, I would add that its not as hard as trying to sleep through the barking soi dogs, the blasting speakers from the mobile shops, the whistles from the retarded security guards or the advertising on the sky train. Now that is seriously hard work and you all need to make sure this endeavour is listed in your blue books or you could be next...

[jonclark]

I know this idea will probably be ridiculed, but as usual when something racist, unequal or biased occurs many views are expressed which follow the TIT line and nothing ever changes.

Have foreigners ( and i hate using that term as it is intrinsically divisive) ever tried petitioning the government with a list of points for consideration? I am fairly sure that as tax paying members of this society a unified voice and cause goes a lotf arther than comments on a forum thread. We are a lot better financed than most, and most people would consider themselves to have better than average education and throw in a couple of foreign news networks to cover the story and things may change. hel_l we could even get ourseleves a special coloured t-shirt!

We know what the inequalities are - why not seek change?

[barky]

I know this idea will probably be ridiculed, but as usual when something racist, unequal or biased occurs many views are expressed which follow the TIT line and nothing ever changes.

Have foreigners ( and i hate using that term as it is intrinsically divisive) ever tried petitioning the government with a list of points for consideration? I am fairly sure that as tax paying members of this society a unified voice and cause goes a lotf arther than comments on a forum thread. We are a lot better financed than most, and most people would consider themselves to have better than average education and throw in a couple of foreign news networks to cover the story and things may change. hel_l we could even get ourseleves a special coloured t-shirt!

We know what the inequalities are - why not seek change?

What a great idea, but unfortunately the vast majority of TV members and other foreigners here are just plain s**t scared to ruffle feathers. And also, if it's not actually happening to them, on the whole, they don't really care, but they know how to say all the PC things to show how "nice and caring" they are. (but I guess that's true for the human race)

[thaiwanderer]

Thaiwanderer,

apologies for any stones cast your way, they were in a dispersion pattern

no worries, i was talking about mr nixon's stone throwing

[thaiwanderer]

I know this idea will probably be ridiculed, but as usual when something racist, unequal or biased occurs many views are expressed which follow the TIT line and nothing ever changes.

Have foreigners ( and i hate using that term as it is intrinsically divisive) ever tried petitioning the government with a list of points for consideration? I am fairly sure that as tax paying members of this society a unified voice and cause goes a lotf arther than comments on a forum thread. We are a lot better financed than most, and most people would consider themselves to have better than average education and throw in a couple of foreign news networks to cover the story and things may change. hel_l we could even get ourseleves a special coloured t-shirt!

We know what the inequalities are - why not seek change?

assume sarcastic post

the powers that be are already well aware of what foreigners want - money has flowed in quite well without enfranchising farangs

having more money than the majority of thais is of little importance - you may have noticed they aren't the ones making the decisions

feel superior by all means, whilst your pocket is emptied

(and before morality police rises up - i am not saying this is a good thing)

[jbaldwin]

"Juristic Person Manager".

by juristic person manager , do you mean the chairman of the committee , voted to the position by the committee?

No - The Juristic Person Manager is not the same as the Chairman of the Committee.

The Juristic Person Manager is the legal representive of the Condo, appointed by a vote of co-owners. He may or may not be a Committee Member. It cases where there is an outside management company it is often a senior employee of the management company. Our condo used to be management by IRM. When it was the managing director of IRM was the Jeristic Person Manager. After we removed IRM as managment company the Thai member of the Committee became the Jeristic Person Manager.

As stated in my previous message our advice from both previous condo management companies and independent lawyers was that acting as Committee Chairman is not consider work but acting as Juristic Person Manager is. Our Committee has always been aware of this so I had assumed that any well informed Committee would also know.

[thaiwanderer]

"Juristic Person Manager".

by juristic person manager , do you mean the chairman of the committee , voted to the position by the committee?

No - The Juristic Person Manager is not the same as the Chairman of the Committee.

The Juristic Person Manager is the legal representive of the Condo, appointed by a vote of co-owners. He may or may not be a Committee Member. It cases where there is an outside management company it is often a senior employee of the management company. Our condo used to be management by IRM. When it was the managing director of IRM was the Jeristic Person Manager. After we removed IRM as managment company the Thai member of the Committee became the Jeristic Person Manager.

As stated in my previous message our advice from both previous condo management companies and independent lawyers was that acting as Committee Chairman is not consider work but acting as Juristic Person Manager is. Our Committee has always been aware of this so I had assumed that any well informed Committee would also know.

You are quite right that the role of Manager and Chairman are distinct.

As has been stated the labour laws are drafted in such a way that pretty much anything an alien does could be deemed 'work' and my previous post about how Mr Nixon might be in breach depending on the facts refers. There may never be any adverse consequences but there can be (even for merely a unit owner). Experience of past enforcement can only be a guide for the future.

Acting as the Manager is definitely work, but I disagree that being the Commitee Chairman, Commitee Vice Chairman or even just a Committee Member is not work (it is 'less' work so to speak and less likely to give rise to scrutiny but nonetheless it would be inaccurate to say it cannot easily be considered work).

This is an unfortunate weakness of the collective protection and oversight.

Edited March 27, 2009 by thaiwanderer

[Chris Bussell]

If true, what next?

Can we get arrested for making a cup of coffee or washing dishes?

Only if the wife pays you?

[jboras]

Hope all goes well for you and you don't get any jail time!!! The laws in Thailand unfotunately are not what they are meant to be if they are meant to be at all!

I have lost 3 houses... just put it down to book of experiences.

If you choose to live in a Country where basically there are no firm laws then good luck!

Best thing is to bend over spread your butt cheeks and supply your own vaseline to ease the pain a little! If they are intent on sticking it to you they will! Our emabssies are powerless to help!

Many a fortunes have been imported into Thailand and LOST! (Words of advise from my embassy when I lost everything).

[selftaopath]

Is there a search for logic/ rational thinking/ common sense in this thread? Perhaps it is noteworthy to look at the Goal: What was to be achieved by the/an arrest? Aren’t all “laws” in Thailand - LOL, sorry I found that humorous (laws in Thailand) - interpreted by whomever and very and often subjective to a particular goal?

[thesyndicate]

he have more then one condo (and he say he has) he is working according to Thai law. You can have one and thats it. Do not make problem if you do not have a clean sheet.

[reenatinnakor]

it is work but if he maintains it isn't then thats okay then

its an unpaid position.

i help my girlfriends mum go to the market and buy ice and then cut it so she can sell it in her shop. is that work too??!!

[Frankster]

I always thought you could do stuff around your own home without any problems....for example working in the garden or painting something. Am I wrong?

The other day I was shoveling some stuff around the yard and the BIB cruised by, stopped & chatted with me.....they didnt say anything but were rather amused that a farang knew how to use a shovel....they told me they thought that back in my home country that I would of had thai people digging holes for me ....they were highly amused when I told them that in farangland we actually build our own houses, paint, work in the garden, clean etc.

To make matters worse, I'm not actually living in the house yet because we are making renovations etc before moving in.

Is someone suggesting they might come back and arrest me for what I was doing ....you've got to be joking, right?

I also clean my motorcycle regularly, clean the house....as I am sure most people do?? Whats the go?

Sounds like your going to jail ...

[Capealava]

Of course he was working. He had 5 very expensive Condos-10,000,000 to 15,000,000 a piece. I am sure he caused resentment somewhere. It call Flaunting your wealth. Did he need 5 Condos-Obviously he is into the business. He should have a work permit. This is a special case where I think he went over the line. I would think other foreigners on Condo committees need not worry. There may be some truth to the charge. I do not see a mass of arrests of other foreigners on committees. Maybe he forgot he was in Thailand and not Canada.

[Frankster]

some further clarifications apparent in the updated report - he had an appointment with them - would be interesting to find out if he continued in the position after he was on notice or is he just moaning about the original 'injustice'?

now looks like the aggrieved other party is one of the other condo owners who hasn't paid / disputes the fees (may or may not be the developer etc.)

farang condo owners' positions can be protected without a farang being the JP so he's a bit ahead of himself

his comments about that the thai government should tell farangs clearly rather than arresting them is infantile - he knew (or should have known) what he was doing - its not even as if he is a bored retiree with only one unit he owns and occupies and has merely got involved a little with the committee (and even then would be his own look out) - he takes no responsibility for what has happened even though it is entirely his own fault

the 'false arrest' headline is still inaccurate even against what he claims, suggest 'Canadian blames everyone else for his own actions'

Anyhow sterling work by the PG to point out that laws differ in different countries

There are often cases in which "aliens" are arrested in Thailand for doing work which would not be considered illegal for foreigners without work permits in other countries.

Always seems to be those individuals that want to impose their 1st world countries ethics and morals in the LOS. If you really care about this country and it's people you could at least try to be a little concerned over the many injustices that go on here, whether its between expats/thais or thais/thais. Rather than blame this guy, tell it like it reads unless you know something the rest of us don't this is a pretty simple case of extortion, at best. I mean come on we have a situation here that can be pulled on any one of us expats here, for merely painting your house.

If had invested in 5 of those condos, (and if they are the blue canyon condos those are a pretty penny).. I would want some pull on that committee myself, I am also a committe member on several condos I own, dont really participate but it keeps me informed. Been living here 18 years never occurred to me to get a second and third work permit to participate on those committees, which im not even sure is possible. I have dozens of friends or at least friends of friends that are participating similarily here on committees whether they be condos, NGOs, charities, or sport organizations none i know of have workpermits for that purpose.

Whether he is the JP or not is non the matter, if this guy was the deciding vote on this committee we would see the same injustice. My guess is this article has been written as he has decided to out this into the media because he believes he has done nothing wrong and this is the only way he can protect his investment and for that matter himself. I figure this guy isn't going down without a fight, he would have turn tailed along time ago before it got to this stage. This looks like another bullet solution, I think he is lucky to not be lying face down with lead poisoning by now.

I think this is a chance for logical expats to take a bit of a stance in this forum. Granted there is limited knowledge here, but im sure it will all come out soon. My guess is he will take it as far as it will go in the media, this is what might be keeping him alive.

Lets get some facts on this one before we start cutting this guy up, from what i have read so far it sounds like he been railroaded.

Never know one day you might actually be able to invest here without looking over your shoulder for a stray bullet or a jail sentence.

That was well said by somebody who knows what he's taking about ...

[NHC]

Maybe he forgot he was in Thailand and not Canada.

Interesting to note here. When I was growing up in Hawaii during the 60's and 70's a statistic came out around 1979 as I recall that found that Canadians, out of all the different nationalities that lived and visited Hawaii were murdered more often than any other nationality.

That is not to say that Canadians were the largest nationality to reside or vacation in Hawaii. By no means. That would have been the Japanese at that time. Now, you may extrapolate this information any way you wish in relation to this story of the Canadian arrested in Thailand and now crying foul. But I think an obvious conclusion can be drawn about the Canadians...much like the French.

[Frankster]

1. i sympathize with the man as kicking down the bamboo curtain is a most formidable endeavor.

2. this story just shows the contrast and therby the unfairness of the two cultures.

3. until such time as global society will focus on the racism that is taught and lived in "asia", these sorts of abuses of the law will continue.

we can hope that the thai justice system will focus on the charge at hand and rule in an unbaised way as though they were blind to race or nationality of the defendant.

4. ive been going to thailand since 1996 and always am aware of the deep seated racism and facism here. thus, i always stayed surface here, that is i never got serious about anything. i see them for what they are and want.

5. if you western white men, knowing and educated choose to go against the grain in siam and achieve and live long to enjoy, then i am in awe of you.

6.i believe there is a high probabilty that prolonges exposure to living in thai will be hurtfull so i choose not to. short time is ok with me!

7. PLEASE RESEARCH ON THE INTERNET THE CRIME STATISTICS FOR THAILAND. THE MURDER RATE, GUN VIOLENCE NUMBERS ETC. this way you will know what you are exposing yourself to.

8. i say go around. visit all the countries in the region. dont just stay in thailand all the time, there are other countries that have offerings not found in thai. both good and bad.

9. if this legal matter happened to an asian in the west it would be called racism and the tables would be turned. dont forget where you have come from expats and the idealisms you were taught. dont choose tyrany.

10. stop giving everything away and unify to make a change for the better. western goverments need to do alot more to assure globalism is open to all the world not just a one way take and no give!

Now you know why colonialism was a good thing ..

[Frankster]

Maybe he forgot he was in Thailand and not Canada.

Interesting to note here. When I was growing up in Hawaii during the 60's and 70's a statistic came out around 1979 as I recall that found that Canadians, out of all the different nationalities that lived and visited Hawaii were murdered more often than any other nationality.

That is not to say that Canadians were the largest nationality to reside or vacation in Hawaii. By no means. That would have been the Japanese at that time. Now, you may extrapolate this information any way you wish in relation to this story of the Canadian arrested in Thailand and now crying foul. But I think an obvious conclusion can be drawn about the Canadians...much like the French.

Canadians stand up for whats right even if they have to die for it ... Americans ???????????

[asiawatcher]

Mr Nixon should think himself lucky the complainant did not settle it Thai style - burying a pound of an illegal substance in his condo or car and the ultimate victory - losing him in the jail system for the rest of his life! Piss off a Thai and beware the consequences. This is not a live and let live society. You encroach his ability to milk teak money from the system, or heaven forbid - cast dispersions on his managerial ability and threaten his position - the loss of face takes precedent. Suggest you settle out of any court and pay the tea money then close your mouth or sell up and move. Check out Coco Resort at Samui as an example. The managers sold the condos multiple times to many purchasers and they are still walking around scott free. The legal precedents are of no consequence as the titles still rest with the managers. Invest in something else and live in a house where you are in control. Far safer!

[antony77]

Canadian condo owner claims false arrest

PHUKET CITY: -- A Canadian man who has lived in Phuket for over a decade has been arrested for working illegally in Thailand, a charge he claims stems from a dispute over maintenance fees with the owner of a condominium complex in which he owns five units.

Phuket Immigration Police led by Investigations Inspector Suparerk Pankosol yesterday arrested James Nixon, 49, at his condominium at the Blue Canyon Country Club in Mai Khao.

Taken to Tah Chat Chai Police Station for questioning, Mr Nixon was held at the station from 1pm until 6:30pm.

I bought legally a 30% share in a hotel and my Thai partners bought the balance. I was helping them check the inventory when we took over the Hotel and a labor department official arrested me for working. Luckily one of my partners had a bit of "clout" and got the official reprimanded.

This sort of thing is very common in Thailand and scares off investors.

Accompanied by his lawyer, Mr Nixon spent much of his time inside a jail cell until his lawyer posted a condominium chanode title deed as police bail.

Speaking to the Gazette from inside the jail cell, Mr Nixon explained that he started spending winters in Thailand about 20 years ago to escape the Canadian climate and now owns five units at Blue Canyon.

He told the Gazette that he was not working in Phuket, but had merely been elected by fellow condo owners as their "juristic person" representative at an annual meeting, as required by the Thai Condominium Act.

Serving as a condo owners' representative is an unpaid position and does not constitute work, he maintains.

There are many foreigners on the island in similar positions, and none have ever been accused of working here illegally, he said.

Mr Nixon concedes that Thai labor law as it applies to foreigners is vague about what actually constitutes "work", but he feels the law is being selectively enforced in his case at the behest of the condo management, with whom he has had a disagreement about management fees.

Phuket Immigration admitted to arresting Mr Nixon, but said they could not give more details about the case until Lt Col Suparerk returns from a seminar in Bangkok.

This morning Mr Nixon spent all morning in a holding room at Phuket Provincial Court. He was finally allowed to leave at about 5pm after he was formally charged for working without a work permit and his lawyer posted bail.

"Does the local government really want to ask us to keep investing in properties and not allow us to sit on management committees? There is something funny about this," he said.

-- Phuket Gazette 2009-03-24