10,000 Police, Soldiers, Security Officials Deployed To Keep Security At Government House

[kurtgruen]

The leaders of the protest, as well as Thaksin who has addressed the protesters nightly, describe the protest as a fight for "true democracy" in Thailand.

Somchai criticised certain provisions in the Constitution. He said the clause that requires a political party to be dissolved when only one party executive commits wrongdoing is unfair.

Somchai was forced to step down as prime minister after the Constitutional Court ruled to dissolve his People Power Party for electoral fraud.

So once again, the RED's are crying in their beers (or lao khao), because they got caught being corrupt.

So according to them, "TRUE DEMOCRACY", is removing safeguards against corruption from the constitution. Hmmmm...maybe they are teaching them in school here, that Democracy = Corruption???

What a pathetic bunch of thugs...and to use the word democracy as an excuse for their actions...pathetic!

[kurtgruen]

To be honest, I think the Constitution doesn't even go far enough yet, against corruption. Anyone caught of election fraud and convicted, should never be allowed to run for office again. This three or five year slap on the wrist, is a joke.

We are finally starting to have a system, where corruption is being held at least a little bit accountable and the REDS what to change the Constitution and go back to the good old days, when it was o.k. to just buy the votes you needed, buy village heads and officals and plant corrupt TRT people to oversee the election process.

But, for them it is not enough, to want to be able to practice their corruption legally, they also want to do it under the banner of being the knight in shining armour for democracy. Give me a break.

Removing the Corruption clauses from the Constitution would be a big step backwards in the fight for Thailand's democracy. I hope this makes sense to more people than just myself???

[Journalist]

Why is is so unfair to be allowed to sell one's vote?

After all. Its my vote.

If someone wants 1) to give me THB500 for it....or 2) wants to give me a comprehensive package of tax deductions, subsidies for my business, and economic breaks (including for example a THB 2000 gift cheque) for it.

Then its up to me as a voter isn't it.

[Plus]

"We are doing this for the country and for our children and grandchildren," Somchai said

Our, as in Shinawatra-Wongsawat families.

Loyality towards the monarchy is not a subject that is debatable here on this forum, so i would ask you to refrain from such accusations

It's not an accusation against you or anyone else, it's an observation of who ends up with ultra right nationalist chovinist fascist pig labels.

Now, if you only could reconcile Chamlong ultra right wing fascism and his leading of pro-democary movement against coup maker Suchinda that made his a symbol of dedication to freedom and led to democractisation of the society and pushing the military into the barracks.

Now that would be a history re-write even I woud like to see.

[justanothercybertosser]

To be honest, I think the Constitution doesn't even go far enough yet, against corruption. Anyone caught of election fraud and convicted, should never be allowed to run for office again. This three or five year slap on the wrist, is a joke.

We are finally starting to have a system, where corruption is being held at least a little bit accountable and the REDS what to change the Constitution and go back to the good old days, when it was o.k. to just buy the votes you needed, buy village heads and officals and plant corrupt TRT people to oversee the election process.

But, for them it is not enough, to want to be able to practice their corruption legally, they also want to do it under the banner of being the knight in shining armour for democracy. Give me a break.

Removing the Corruption clauses from the Constitution would be a big step backwards in the fight for Thailand's democracy. I hope this makes sense to more people than just myself???

Rubbish.

It never was "OK" under the 97 constitution to buy votes. The difference was that then offenders caught were banned, while now the whole party will be summarily dissolved and all executives regardless of innocence or guilt will be banned.

Votes are still be "bought" under this constitution. Recently even Dept. Prime Minister Suthep from the Democrats was indicted, fortunately for him it was not a national election.

As to the real impact of "vote buying", and that this phenomenon is a far more complex issue, i would suggest reading Andrew Walker's field study on everyday electoral politics. But you won't do that, i am sure, as it destroys your argument.

[justanothercybertosser]

Now, if you only could reconcile Chamlong ultra right wing fascism and his leading of pro-democary movement against coup maker Suchinda that made his a symbol of dedication to freedom and led to democractisation of the society and pushing the military into the barracks.

Now that would be a history re-write even I woud like to see.

Easy.

Behind the simplistic view of '92 being a "pro-democracy movement" against "military" have been notorious class rivalries of the military, in which Chamlong has been deeply involved all along. Very complex loyalties to peer groups have also overshadowed this incident. We should wish that the official investigation into this incident would finally be made public. Unfortunately i guess this is not going to happen in our lifetimes.

[h90]

Since when is citing peer reviewed academic papers to counter unsubstantiated claims ("one of the most upstanding citizens") "mud slinging"?

For one thing, in those days Chamlong hadn't joined Santi Asoke yet, hadn't met their leader. He subsequently renounced all violence. Chamlong of 1976 and Chamlong of 2006 are two different people with different philosophy and different attitudes.

Chamlong changed and proved himself during years and decades of public service. Samak and Chalerm haven't.

How come you don't denounce Chalerm?

You assume a lot here. As Chamlong has never made any public statement as to his role in the 70's, has even rejected accusations against overwhelming evidence (such as former village scouts and participants of the events within the in Palang Dhamma party confirming this), and still carries the exact same political philosophy of right wing nationalism within the PAD we can safely assume that he has not renounced violence. Very recent evidence of such is that a Dhamma Army lorry was raided by police during the Airport occupation, and guns and bombs were found.

No Plus, as much as you want to rewrite history and even current events - the evidence is on my side. On your side of the argument are only unsubstantiated claims, wishful thinking and baseless poison propaganda.

No need to denounce Chalerm, Samak, and similar characters - you are doing a good job of it, and i have nothing to counter or add there. These people are as shady as Chamlong, though (slightly) less hypocrites.

No guns and bombs were found...where do you have that from?

Parts of the PAD are old lefties

=complete posting propaganda nonsense

[sriracha john]

I don't see any red shirt in this photo. Only black shirt, no shirt and interesting "YELLOW" shirt. Photo do not lie.

The Reds weren't so adamant in July 2007 as they are nowadays about wearing red. In fact, many photos of the time showed them wearing yellow shirts...

But do you see the logo on his shirt in this particular photo? White Doves.

There's a whole thread on them and other thugs of the UDD rioting here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thousands-Pr...95.html&hl=

Supporters of ousted Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra scuffle with police at a barbed wire barricade during a march to the house of Prem Tinsulanonda in Bangkok. Protesters marched to house of Prem Tinsulanonda, the chief adviser to the monarch, on Sunday afternoon. The group, led by Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship, demanded Prem, who is accused of masterminding the September coup, to resign.

REUTERS / July 22, 2007

=======================================

Attorney-General Speeds up Reviewing Red Shirt Protest at Privy Council Head's Residence

Kaiyasit Pitwongprakarn, the Chief Public Prosecutor for criminal cases, has warned the co-leaders of the Democratic Alliance against Dictatorship or DAAD that the case against them is not over.

The suspects are accused of breaking in to Privy Council President, General Prem Tinsulanonda’s residence on July 22, 2007. The prosecuting attorney chose not to indict the suspects, but the Commissioner-General of the Royal Thai Police, General Patcharawat Wongsuwan has recently opposed the decision.

Attorney-General Chaikasem Nitisiri is considering the case and will decide whether the suspects should be prosecuted. If he agrees with Police General Patcharawat , the authorities will follow through with an indictment. If he agrees with the prosecuting attorney, the case will be concluded without prosecution.

Regarding the case against Jakkapob Penkae for committing lese majesty, the Chief Public Prosecutor for criminal cases revealed that the investigator has not yet sent a briefing of the interrogation to the attorney, though the Commissioner-General has agreed to indict.

- TOC / 2009-04-02

[justanothercybertosser]

No guns and bombs were found...where do you have that from?

Parts of the PAD are old lefties

=complete posting propaganda nonsense

I have that from here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/291108_News/29Nov2008_news14.php

Quote begin:

"Police yesterday found 15 home-made guns, an axe and other weapons in a Dharma Army six-wheel truck taking 20 protesters to Suvarnabhumi airport."

Quote end.

I expect an apology for the accusation that i post "propaganda nonsense"

[Plus]

Behind the simplistic view of '92 being a "pro-democracy movement" against "military" have been notorious class rivalries of the military, in which Chamlong has been deeply involved all along. Very complex loyalties to peer groups have also overshadowed this incident.

So, that mass uprising against Suchinda going back on his word to resign was actually covert struggle between unnamed military cliques.

Pity none of those hundreds of thousands of demonstrators who were on the streets for months knew nothing of it. Or have they all been issued secret orders and never told the rest of the nation about it?

I'm really disappointed.

[justanothercybertosser]

Behind the simplistic view of '92 being a "pro-democracy movement" against "military" have been notorious class rivalries of the military, in which Chamlong has been deeply involved all along. Very complex loyalties to peer groups have also overshadowed this incident.

So, that mass uprising against Suchinda going back on his word to resign was actually covert struggle between unnamed military cliques.

Pity none of those hundreds of thousands of demonstrators who were on the streets for months knew nothing of it. Or have they all been issued secret orders and never told the rest of the nation about it?

I'm really disappointed.

Yes, Plus, it is a pity and disappointing that information flow in Thailand is so nontransparent, that on many occasions protesters who do believe they protest for democracy are actually just pawns for the same old elites that have been in power all along. The latest case of such are the PAD.

A point that you just refuse to accept is, that here in Thailand it is not about what we can support, but about the very difficult choice of what may be the lesser evil, and what may have slightly more chances to one day lead to a more egalitarian society.

But guessing from your posts - you have anyhow a strong aversion to the ideals of egalitarian societies.

Therefore just make it easier for yourself, and finally admit that you are ultra-conservative. No harm in doing that, and you would get much less flak as you at least would be honest and consistent in your views. You can't just keep on pretending that you are not, and contradict yourself time after time.

[Artisi]

A Buddhist monk walks past a portrait of Thailand's ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra during a demonstration at Government House in Bangkok, Apr 1, 2009. Thailand's government offered Wednesday to hold talks with Thaksin in a bid to defuse week-long protests that have reignited the kingdom's political chaos.

AFP

If supertaksin is so smart, why does he wear his underpants on the outside?

[kurtgruen]

But guessing from your posts - you have anyhow a strong aversion to the ideals of egalitarian societies.

Well, I guess the one good thing is, that you are loosing most of the readers here with your words anyways. Anyone, who claims to believe in equal political, economic, social, and civil rights for all people, might be wise to learn the language of the people first, rather than being seen as a right wing aristocratic snob, by over 90% of Western, English speaking civilization. So I'm glad you are having fun talking to yourself. ;-)

(I wish forum rules weren't so strict, I have such a hard time being nice sometimes ;-) )

[justanothercybertosser]

But guessing from your posts - you have anyhow a strong aversion to the ideals of egalitarian societies.

Well, I guess the one good thing is, that you are loosing most of the readers here with your words anyways. Anyone, who claims to believe in equal political, economic, social, and civil rights for all people, might be wise to learn the language of the people first, rather than being seen as a right wing aristocratic snob, by over 90% of Western, English speaking civilization. So I'm glad you are having fun talking to yourself. ;-)

(I wish forum rules weren't so strict, I have such a hard time being nice sometimes ;-) )

Which people and their language are you referring to?

I do speak Thai.

If you prefer i can also scatter four letter words starting with "F" and other expletives in posts, so that it might be more pleasant for you to read them.

I do not expect you to be nice.

I just expect you to include a minimum of reasonable argumentation to make your points, and not just base your views on unsubstantiated claims (in the people's language i should express that maybe better as "don't <deleted> sprout a load of crap").

[Journalist]

Therefore just make it easier for yourself, and finally admit that you are ultra-conservative. No harm in doing that,

Plus ain't some fanatical right wing fundamentalist neo con. He likes Soi Cowboy just like normal people do.

Who here seriously wants Thailand to grow-up? If it did, and all the fairer sex started working in semi-conductor and flat screen telly plants built in Buriram, wee'd be up the wazoo.

[h90]

Why is is so unfair to be allowed to sell one's vote?

After all. Its my vote.

If someone wants 1) to give me THB500 for it....or 2) wants to give me a comprehensive package of tax deductions, subsidies for my business, and economic breaks (including for example a THB 2000 gift cheque) for it.

Then its up to me as a voter isn't it.

that isn't what democracy is, or?

add 2) this is for all, no matter if they vote for the government or not

[justanothercybertosser]

Therefore just make it easier for yourself, and finally admit that you are ultra-conservative. No harm in doing that,

Plus ain't some fanatical right wing fundamentalist neo con. He likes Soi Cowboy just like normal people do.

Who here seriously wants Thailand to grow-up? If it did, and all the fairer sex started working in semi-conductor and flat screen telly plants built in Buriram, wee'd be up the wazoo.

Most bar owners (which i of course absolutely deny of knowing personally) have told me that their best period of income in the recent years was during the days of the military coup.

[Koo82]

Thailand WILL be hit harder than it should be because it screwed the two biggest assets it had - exports/imports and tourism - by closing its airport and because it is socially the least well equipped place to deal with tough times.

Experts in this forum don't see that. They say no one remembers PAD anymore and the world moves on.

[kurtgruen]

I didn't lack a respone, but it either got lost in cyber space or go axed right away, so I won't bother reposting it. Time to get back on topic anyways, I guess :-(

So rather than posting nonsense, here is an interesting little twist...

US envoy visits Gen Prem

US Ambassador to Thailand Eric G John met Privy Council President Prem Tinsulanonda at his residence Thursday. It is unclear about objectives of the John's visit.

Also visiting Prem were Suankulab alumni who said they wished to give moral support to Prem. However they could not meet him due to Prem's meeting with John.

Vice Admiral Pajun Tamprateep, a head of the Office of the Statesman Foundation, recieved a bouquet from the group on behalf of Prem.

Pajunsaid that Prem thanked everyone for coming.

(from the Nation)

[justanothercybertosser]

I didn't lack a respone, but it either got lost in cyber space or go axed right away, so I won't bother reposting it. Time to get back on topic anyways, I guess :-(

So rather than posting nonsense, here is an interesting little twist...

US envoy visits Gen Prem

(from the Nation)

It appears then that the US envoy knows who the real government in the country is.

[Koo82]

Re. Chamlong - why would anyone dismiss his very public life as Bangkok Governor, leader of Phalang Dharma party, and leader of Santi Asoke sect, and instead define the man by actions thirty years ago no one remembers anymore?

From what I know, our government at least 10 years ago did not approve that Santi Asoke.

Ask any monk and see how they say.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Koo82

[Journalist]

Why is is so unfair to be allowed to sell one's vote?

After all. Its my vote.

If someone wants 1) to give me THB500 for it....or 2) wants to give me a comprehensive package of tax deductions, subsidies for my business, and economic breaks (including for example a THB 2000 gift cheque) for it.

Then its up to me as a voter isn't it.

that isn't what democracy is, or?

add 2) this is for all, no matter if they vote for the government or not

So supposing I start a political party and say to all the poor people - 'ok vote for me and not one of you will pay tax. We'll sting the rich'

And I win. But they've effectively sold their votes to me, and they get rewarded. My voters win en bloc thanks to my new policies - but all the rest of the voters don't. The rest get to pay for it all.

(p.s This reasoning is partially why we don't have one man one vote in Hong Kong, because there aren't enough taxpayers. Millions pay nothing, and if they could vote, heaven knows what some populist could promise them)

Edited April 2, 2009 by Journalist

[Koo82]

When Thai Rak Thai won elections, they said TRT bought votes because people especially poor rural people don't know which is which.

When Army government got people's votes to pass 2550 Constitution Law, these people are all have knowledge!

Edited April 2, 2009 by Koo82

[kurtgruen]

Thailand WILL be hit harder than it should be because it screwed the two biggest assets it had - exports/imports and tourism - by closing its airport and because it is socially the least well equipped place to deal with tough times.

Experts in this forum don't see that. They say no one remembers PAD anymore and the world moves on.

Yes, occupying the airport didn't boost tourism, that's for sure, but it helped remove a corrupt government. There are many other factors that affect tourism...for example, constantly changing visa requirements, other Countries in Asia becoming more attractive to tourists and most of all the Global Financial situation.

Even though, the REDS have as much right to demonstrate as the Yellows, this comes at a very bad time, too, because it will just add to peoples fears about Thailands instability. Was it not for the current demonstrations, most people would forget quick. Most people in the Western World still think that in Thailand we speak Taiwanese ;-) They couldn't really care less about what happens here, as long as they feel reasonably safe coming here.

I think this is lousy timing to pick a fight, but then again, everyone (and I mean all sides, not just the Reds), wants to have their hands in the cookie jar and don't want to miss out on the government contract kickback smorgesboard.

In the end, they will destroy what they are trying to steal, before they get the chance to, if they keep on fighting.

But then again, this is just a "peaceful demonstration", so what do I know ;-)

Someone mentioned "picking the lesser of two evils". We just have different opinions of who the "lesser evil" is. I for one, rather see the Democrats in Power for now.... and no, I am not right wing. I am a socialist and have been saying so many times openly.

Seeing the PAD advocating peaceful civil disobedience, (and pulling it off for the most part), created the spark for future Socialist movements in Thailand. It showed that people have power. As far as Thaksin and his croonies go, they are far from being socialist and just as far from being democratic. A wolf in RED clothing. He threw a few crumbs to the poor, to stay in power....not enough crumbs, as it turned out ;-)

I think the same will happen to the Democrats one day, but having someone like Thaksin in Power, is much more dangerous to the Cause of the poor, because he did know the power of throwing a few crumbs.

The Rich are very afraid right now. Thaksin kept the poor from rebelling. He generously gave Government money to the "Opium of the People", to keep them subdued, plus threw them a few crumbs, including a totally inadequate healthcare scheme. Now that he is gone, there is much more chance of the people rising up one day, saying "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH". Bringing him back will set back the poor indefinitely in this country.

Good thing is, that regardless of their ramblings on stage, they don't have the people power, or the backing from High Places, to put him back in Power.

So hopefully, and most likely, this will all blow over shortly, everyone who cares will have fun getting wet and throwing water at each other and then go on with their lives for a while after Songkran.

[h90]

Why is is so unfair to be allowed to sell one's vote?

After all. Its my vote.

If someone wants 1) to give me THB500 for it....or 2) wants to give me a comprehensive package of tax deductions, subsidies for my business, and economic breaks (including for example a THB 2000 gift cheque) for it.

Then its up to me as a voter isn't it.

that isn't what democracy is, or?

add 2) this is for all, no matter if they vote for the government or not

So supposing I start a political party and say to all the poor people - 'ok vote for me and not one of you will pay tax. We'll sting the rich'

And I win. But they've effectively sold their votes to me, and they get rewarded. My voters win en bloc thanks to my new policies - but all the rest of the voters don't. The rest get to pay for it all.

(p.s This reasoning is partially why we don't have one man one vote in Hong Kong, because there aren't enough taxpayers. Millions pay nothing, and if they could vote, heaven knows what some populist could promise them)

there were many parties who tried that already and got not elected. Often Communists are doing exactly that and don't get elected.

And if elected they can't full-fill their promises.

Usually you can explain everyone that money does not grow on trees....

Put Yes it is a problem, that parties come with extreme populist ideas before the election. Result is that no voter believes anything anymore in Europe as all parties try to promise more impossible things than the other. That is also damaging the democracy.

[Thai at Heart]

Thailand WILL be hit harder than it should be because it screwed the two biggest assets it had - exports/imports and tourism - by closing its airport and because it is socially the least well equipped place to deal with tough times.

Experts in this forum don't see that. They say no one remembers PAD anymore and the world moves on.

Yes, occupying the airport didn't boost tourism, that's for sure, but it helped remove a corrupt government. There are many other factors that affect tourism...for example, constantly changing visa requirements, other Countries in Asia becoming more attractive to tourists and most of all the Global Financial situation.

Even though, the REDS have as much right to demonstrate as the Yellows, this comes at a very bad time, too, because it will just add to peoples fears about Thailands instability. Was it not for the current demonstrations, most people would forget quick. Most people in the Western World still think that in Thailand we speak Taiwanese ;-) They couldn't really care less about what happens here, as long as they feel reasonably safe coming here.

I think this is lousy timing to pick a fight, but then again, everyone (and I mean all sides, not just the Reds), wants to have their hands in the cookie jar and don't want to miss out on the government contract kickback smorgesboard.

In the end, they will destroy what they are trying to steal, before they get the chance to, if they keep on fighting.

But then again, this is just a "peaceful demonstration", so what do I know ;-)

Someone mentioned "picking the lesser of two evils". We just have different opinions of who the "lesser evil" is. I for one, rather see the Democrats in Power for now.... and no, I am not right wing. I am a socialist and have been saying so many times openly.

Seeing the PAD advocating peaceful civil disobedience, (and pulling it off for the most part), created the spark for future Socialist movements in Thailand. It showed that people have power. As far as Thaksin and his croonies go, they are far from being socialist and just as far from being democratic. A wolf in RED clothing. He threw a few crumbs to the poor, to stay in power....not enough crumbs, as it turned out ;-)

I think the same will happen to the Democrats one day, but having someone like Thaksin in Power, is much more dangerous to the Cause of the poor, because he did know the power of throwing a few crumbs.

The Rich are very afraid right now. Thaksin kept the poor from rebelling. He generously gave Government money to the "Opium of the People", to keep them subdued, plus threw them a few crumbs, including a totally inadequate healthcare scheme. Now that he is gone, there is much more chance of the people rising up one day, saying "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH". Bringing him back will set back the poor indefinitely in this country.

Good thing is, that regardless of their ramblings on stage, they don't have the people power, or the backing from High Places, to put him back in Power.

So hopefully, and most likely, this will all blow over shortly, everyone who cares will have fun getting wet and throwing water at each other and then go on with their lives for a while after Songkran.

I somehow doubt if the protests last until Songkran, that they will all just pack up and go home. I foresee people wearing their colour of choice and it could all t-off as the alcohol really starts to flow among the younger supporters. I for one won't be wearing red or yellow during Songkran.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Thai at Heart

[justanothercybertosser]

Someone mentioned "picking the lesser of two evils". We just have different opinions of who the "lesser evil" is. I for one, rather see the Democrats in Power for now.... and no, I am not right wing. I am a socialist and have been saying so many times openly.

Seeing the PAD advocating peaceful civil disobedience, (and pulling it off for the most part), created the spark for future Socialist movements in Thailand.

A step up in your posts - now you are using sophism.

As a self-labeled socialist, you really should think about your political theory in terms of what allies a socialist looks for in a under developed and transforming society (a hint - it is not the feudal forces, just because they are anti-capitalist does not make them your natural allies...). Socialism is not following people that carry the label of socialism, but advocate a political philosophy that is the exact opposite of what socialism stands for (in the "people's language - "you don' know shit").

As to civil disobedience for the most part - you completely ignore clear evidence of numerous acts of violence.

But if it suits your view, why let facts stand in the way?

[kurtgruen]

I somehow doubt if the protests last until Songkran, that they will all just pack up and go home. I foresee people wearing their colour of choice and it could all t-off as the alcohol really starts to flow among the younger supporters. I for one won't be wearing red or yellow during Songkran.

Hmmm....thanks for reminding me...I'm going to the beach for a week during Songkran...better now wear my red swimming shorts...wouldn't want to be mistaken for one of Thaksin's pawns. Think I'll stick to black for now ;-)

[justanothercybertosser]

That is also damaging the democracy.

I am still waiting for your apology accusing me of spreading "nonsense propaganda". I have given you clear evidence that there were weapons found in a Dhamma Army truck.

[kurtgruen]

Someone mentioned "picking the lesser of two evils". We just have different opinions of who the "lesser evil" is. I for one, rather see the Democrats in Power for now.... and no, I am not right wing. I am a socialist and have been saying so many times openly.

Seeing the PAD advocating peaceful civil disobedience, (and pulling it off for the most part), created the spark for future Socialist movements in Thailand.

A step up in your posts - now you are using sophism.

As a self-labeled socialist, you really should think about your political theory in terms of what allies a socialist looks for in a under developed and transforming society (a hint - it is not the feudal forces, just because they are anti-capitalist does not make them your natural allies...). Socialism is not following people that carry the label of socialism, but advocate a political philosophy that is the exact opposite of what socialism stands for (in the "people's language - "you don' know shit").

As to civil disobedience for the most part - you completely ignore clear evidence of numerous acts of violence.

But if it suits your view, why let facts stand in the way?

Just proves that you haven't got a clue about what I am talking about, accusing me of using confusing or illogical arguments in an attempt to deceive. I'm about as plain as you can get, for anyone who has a brain (and I don't mean someone who has swallowed a dictionary ;-)

I have been a socialist since my teens. I have been a Union Member since my teens and I have been a social activist since my teens. I am surprised, that you don't see one of the fastest ways to socialism in this country (or maybe you see it and that is why you are arguing so hard, to stop things from moving in that direction) Somehow, I don't picture you as one who is fighting for the poor masses, but maybe I just don't understand you either.