the pros, cons/risks of keeping weapons for self protection

[robbiecia]

In the states, an effective deterrent is a simple sticker on the bottom corner of all accessible windows

The sticker reads "NRA" or national rifle association..............the assumption is that the occupants have a gun

For here in Thailand.............maybe there is a Thai equivalent, or just a simple "we are armed" in Thai script..........on all windows

You would not notice these stickers unless up reasonably close

[a2396]

I'm sorry if this breaks forum rules, but I hope that the moderators will allow this thread to stay open. I ask posters to refrain from being flippant as this is a serious subject.

The last few days people have started to return to the village, Songkran is coming up and that's to be expected. Some of these people are ok, but some are the dregs of society, when they've been in the village, a lot of things go missing, they don't earn a living by working, but by stealing or scamming. There's not so many rich pickings in the tourist areas and they are back here now.

A main road runs very close to the village and recently people on motorbikes have been stopped and robbed. Today a lady was riding her motorbike home and her husband was following in their car. Two men stopped the motorbike and tried to rob the woman. Her husband in the car behind had a gun. He stopped and his wife ran back to him. When his wife was out of the way, he let off 3 shots but missed. The 2 men ran and he followed to our village. Everybody here knows who the men are (about 19 years old), but they will not tell the man, because he will kill them for sure.

We sleep with a super sharp machete in the room because my lady is scared of some of the people in the village. I'm ok with that as long as it is out of reach of the 3 year old daughter.

After this happened today, she has announced that she wants to get a gun!

I understand her fears, I am the only Farang in the village and an obvious target. But I really don't want to have a gun in the house. It would be an accident waiting to happen.

Has anybody else had experience of this?

No, I would not live in these "rat trap" villages. Usually nothing but trouble, crime, noise, in-laws, nothing to do, etc, etc.

[coventry]

No, I would not live in these "rat trap" villages. Usually nothing but trouble, crime, noise, in-laws, nothing to do, etc, etc.

I have to agree 'a2396', but I do as my wife wont live anywhere but..... There again it isn't much different to where I lived before, just the faces changed and it's warmer. I'm sure Utopia has it's bad points ?

[dbrenn]

If it's as bad as that I'd move away, why be in fear everytime you go to bed, plus having to think about shooting people in the dark..!! We both know you'd be locked away for a long period of time. As for shooting them on wife's land, I suggest they have got to die there, if they outside of land then real problems.

Plus a dead thai that you've shot takes a lot of explaining, especially if he's a local, also, accidentally killing an innocent passerby is not out of the question either.

If the Nasties are that bad and know you have a gun they'll 'tool' up and take it from you or your wife, the outcome is inevitable.

Best take your family out of the equation to be on the safe side.

That's the best advice you're going to get. Good Luck to the OP.

Agreed - unfettered civilian gun obsession is an American idea that leads to higher murder rates.

a combintion of fear, disorientation, a dark night and a gun makes it too easy to accidentally kill someone and then the OP or his missus would go down for murder. Add to that the fact, as correctly stated above, weapons cause escalation - the villians will arm themselves and are likely to outnumber the OP.

Bars on the window or moving to a new neighbourhood are a much better idea.

[Ulysses G.]

Bars on the window or moving to a new neighbourhood are a much better idea.

Most thieves in Thailand break a hole in the roof which is quite easy and quite difficult to protect against. I have had it happen - I could hear them smashing the roof as it was right above my head in the middle of the night - when I had some special police on retainer. I called them on my cell phone and they arrived almost instantly and the burglers fled.

When I have tried calling the police normally, it usually takes so much time that the intruders would have time to slaughter the whole family, steal everything, cook a meal, eat it and drive home before the police would arrive.

Do you really want to depend on them to protect you?

[flying]

I'm beginning to see the sense in getting a gun...Toting a Gun - Short Cut to 24 Hour Police Protection

I know the Thai law the BiB come in for a lot of flack but they've got my support on the No Guns for Foreigners thing. The last thing Thailand needs is armed redneck loosers.

Yeah funny coincidence that right above your article you have 2 Thais with an arsenal

[sbk]

OP was looking for sensible discussion. Lets keep it restricted to that shall we?

[473geo]

No, I would not live in these "rat trap" villages. Usually nothing but trouble, crime, noise, in-laws, nothing to do, etc, etc.

I have to agree 'a2396', but I do as my wife wont live anywhere but..... There again it isn't much different to where I lived before, just the faces changed and it's warmer. I'm sure Utopia has it's bad points ?

Actually I would disagree...surely this thread is the one big argument.....for...having your extended family...and a village full of relatives around you!!!

Edit: spelling is atroc.....terrible today

Edited March 30, 2009 by 473geo

[buffcoat]

The OP is clearly concerned by his situation and just as clearly intends to stay where he is, none of us know his situation so advice to move is quite pointless.

Given he stays where he is and his desire to improve security he has two main avenus to pursue.

1/Passive defense. Good locks, walls, bars,alarm, proximity light, dogs,connection to police/security on a fee basis etc.

The problem with passive defense is it only provides delay to the determined intruder but hopefully gives you time to take some further action to protect yourself and your family.

2/Active defense. This involves you actively resisting the intruders.

Hand to hand (only any good if you are Tony Jaa)

[Orac]

No, I would not live in these "rat trap" villages. Usually nothing but trouble, crime, noise, in-laws, nothing to do, etc, etc.

I have to agree 'a2396', but I do as my wife wont live anywhere but..... There again it isn't much different to where I lived before, just the faces changed and it's warmer. I'm sure Utopia has it's bad points ?

Actually I would disgree...surely this thread is the one big argument.....for...having your extended family...and a village full of relatives around you!!!

I would have to agree with that. As the only farang in our village it is comforting to have one brother in law living opposite and another two houses down. Plus with the number of dogs in the village it is impossible for anyone to move around at night.

With regards to the OPs original point, if I felt that the village had become unsafe for our family I would not hesitate to move somewhere safer - I would not even consider having a firearm in the house as the idea of my wife being armed terrifies me!

I would like to ask the OP if his wife is just looking for a weapon for the house or intends to carry one with her since you have indicated that the there are also major safety issues away from your home.

[buffcoat]

The OP is clearly concerned by his situation and just as clearly intends to stay where he is, none of us know his situation so advice to move is quite pointless.

Given he stays where he is and his desire to improve security he has two main avenus to pursue.

1/Passive defense. Good locks, walls, bars,alarm, proximity light, dogs,connection to police/security on a fee basis etc.

The problem with passive defense is it only provides delay to the determined intruder but hopefully gives you time to take some further action to protect yourself and your family.

2/Active defense. This involves you actively resisting the intruders.

Hand to hand (only any good if you are Tony Jaa)

oops pressed the wrong button

some form of hand weapon, edged or otherwise, again unless you have been trained to use one (and trained to a high standard) not much use.

projectile weapon, shotgun or handgun. You need to be trained to use it.

pepper/mace hard to use in a confined space without suffering the effect yourself.

Personally I would accept the lady's request and obtain a firearm but make sure she is trained to use it and that it is locked in a gun cabinet , which is why the passive defences are important for the time it gives you( I would suggest a pistol for a Thai lady for ease of use).

Do not buy a .22 as it does not have stopping power. Do not buy a .45 as the recoil is fierce and she will probably lose control.

What do I know about all this? I am in the UK and hold an explosives cert,a shotgun cert and unusually a firearms cert (here this is hard to obtain). My house is vetted by the firearms police section and they have given me significant amounts of property security advice on which the above is based.

I hope the OP achieves security and peace of mind.

[Ulysses G.]

Do not buy a .22 as it does not have stopping power. Do not buy a .45 as the recoil is fierce and she will probably lose control.

When I was in the military, I trained with a .45 but did not like the recoil even thiough I was much stronger at that time. I decided that a 9mm would probably be better for me, but when I tried one at a range, the recoil seemed pretty much the same, and besides that, my aim is not as accurate as with a .45.

Many policemen say that a 38 does not have enough stopping power for self defence. Do you think that "special" bullets such as hollow points would make a 38 or 32 more dangerous to the bad guys, or is it better to go for the bigger pistol even if firing it is not comfortable?

[loong]

I would like to ask the OP if his wife is just looking for a weapon for the house or intends to carry one with her since you have indicated that the there are also major safety issues away from your home.

As far as I know, she just wants one for the home. She hasn't mentioned it today, and I'm not about to remind her. It maybe that it was just a kneejerk reaction to somebody firing a gun fairly near to the village.

[buffcoat]

As to the type of handgun I would personally purchase a sig .4 as it has more stopping power than a standard 9mm but to me no difference in recoil.

With a Thai lady in mind I think the recoil would be tolerable and avoid the issue of the second or third round going through the ceiling. But of course she would need professional training to handle it properly in terms of grip and balance to make sure she can hit only what she is aiming at.

Since the weapon is envisaged for use in home defence the likely target will be in the same room and probably therefore within five yards max ? so accuracy should not be a problem unless you have one of those mini weapons with a 2 inch barrell.

Hollow points make up for the lack of punch in a .38 which is why law enforcement like them and of course there is no danger of a round going through the target and hitting someone else. The same reason special forces sometimes use reduced loads in their ammunition.I would assume that hollow points are illegal for civilians in Thailand and the OP and his lady would need standard rounds.

Best thing for them to do is find a good gun shop/range and try out various handguns to see what she can comfortably handle before making a purchase (always assuming they go down this route).

[coventry]

moving to a new neighbourhood are a much better idea.

Oh and criminals don't move around ? Birds don't shit in their own nests.

[Beardog]

If you brandish a weapon against some one you should have full intent on using it. Most unfortunate incidents in the U.S. the wife turns green & freezes up , the perpetrator sees the obvious fear & walks up to the gun & grabs it & you & your loved ones are toast. A 22 cal with a stinger load (similar to birdshot in a shotgun is a definite party stopper. A 9mm- 45 cal will bust thru Q-con, red brick or standard like soft butter with a knife & will have the velocity needed to penetrate your neighbors house & possibly kill them.A hollow point cross filed(any caliber) will effectively render the thief withering in pain until he or she most likely dies if shot in a vital organ. A 22 cal.round with a tumbler round(used in Vietnam) even if you were a horrible shot if you hit a hat it would bounce through the arm leg heart brain on one shot. I don't think this would be available in Thailand. The stinger round or a 12 gauge best bet.

Just got robbed by Gun point(fake gun & they killed the lites so I couldn't see the obvious paint chips(dead give away it was a fake as guns aren't painted they are blued. If I had one on me & had a key lock on would be a horrible answer. 2 seconds to take the lock off & they have the gun & the keys. The gun lock will keep the family safe, but most 8-10 year olds know where pops keep the keys. At 8 I knew how to get into the gun closet & when I got 11 years old before borrow the guns & shoot small critters for practice (I know it is cruel I was a kid & wouldn't shoot anything unless it was dinner & I needed to - or an unfortunate that looked like he was intent on doing harm to my family or myself.In Sattahib the police told us get a gun practice & make sure to take their life(less paperwork for them-dead man don't talk.

By the way the thieves were on me so quick if I had a gun in the house-I probably would not be responding to this post.

If you do decide on a gun make sure you are willing to use it!

Besides other problems you have to have that sidearm disposable in a split second & even though the cops tell you if they are over your fence & in your yard & you kill them -Thailand like every other country your going to have repercussions.

To to the best of my knowledge the only time a civilian can shoot to kill without problems is in international waters on a yacht-boat or ship about to be boarded by pirates in open waters. And I wouldn't think of shooting someone outside your fenced in area & dragging them back to your house. Thai forensics are pretty westernized on methods of trajectory & blood tracing.

Lots to think about & a lot of responsibility. I wouldn't entertain the idea unless you & the wife can shoot to kill Seriously!

Edited March 30, 2009 by Beardog

[Ulysses G.]

As to the type of handgun I would personally purchase a sig .4 as it has more stopping power than a standard 9mm but to me no difference in recoil.

I Googled "sig 4" and did not see any 9mm as results. Could you tell me if that is the correct caliber, and if so, why it is more powerful than other 9mm handguns?

[Pierrot]

Personally I would accept the lady's request and obtain a firearm but make sure she is trained to use it and that it is locked in a gun cabinet , which is why the passive defences are important for the time it gives you( I would suggest a pistol for a Thai lady for ease of use).

Where ?

As to the type of handgun I would personally purchase a sig .4 as it has more stopping power than a standard 9mm but to me no difference in recoil.

With a Thai lady in mind I think the recoil would be tolerable and avoid the issue of the second or third round going through the ceiling. But of course she would need professional training to handle it properly in terms of grip and balance to make sure she can hit only what she is aiming at.

Since the weapon is envisaged for use in home defence the likely target will be in the same room and probably therefore within five yards max ? so accuracy should not be a problem unless you have one of those mini weapons with a 2 inch barrell.

Best thing for them to do is find a good gun shop/range and try out various handguns to see what she can comfortably handle before making a purchase (always assuming they go down this route).

Does anybody has any place to recommend ? Bangkok or Korat area ?

[neverdie]

So much poor advise, typical really.

You would be surprised how many people actually become victims of the weapon they personally introduce into situations.

You should NOT get a firearm unless you are prepared to train, learn all the skills required, including firearm retention & practise with the weapon on a regular basis.

Honestly, this is a serious issue, it should be treated seriously, if you follow the wrong advice the weapon you buy will most likely be the one that takes your life.

My final comment about this would be, if you go ahead & buy this firearm & effectively use it on an intruder, what do you think is going to be the final outcome on this, as far as the legal system goes here in Thailand?

[473geo]

So much poor advise, typical really.

You would be surprised how many people actually become victims of the weapon they personally introduce into situations.

You should NOT get a firearm unless you are prepared to train, learn all the skills required, including firearm retention & practise with the weapon on a regular basis.

Honestly, this is a serious issue, it should be treated seriously, if you follow the wrong advice the weapon you buy will most likely be the one that takes your life.

My final comment about this would be, if you go ahead & buy this firearm & effectively use it on an intruder, what do you think is going to be the final outcome on this, as far as the legal system goes here in Thailand?

Or the non legal system for that matter!!

[tb86]

As to the type of handgun I would personally purchase a sig .4 as it has more stopping power than a standard 9mm but to me no difference in recoil.

I Googled "sig 4" and did not see any 9mm as results. Could you tell me if that is the correct caliber, and if so, why it is more powerful than other 9mm handguns?

search sig sauer

www.sigsauer.com

[AndyBlueEyes]

So much poor advise, typical really.

You would be surprised how many people actually become victims of the weapon they personally introduce into situations.

You should NOT get a firearm unless you are prepared to train, learn all the skills required, including firearm retention & practise with the weapon on a regular basis.

Honestly, this is a serious issue, it should be treated seriously, if you follow the wrong advice the weapon you buy will most likely be the one that takes your life.

My final comment about this would be, if you go ahead & buy this firearm & effectively use it on an intruder, what do you think is going to be the final outcome on this, as far as the legal system goes here in Thailand?

Neverdie brings up a very valid point about the probable outcome of a farang shooting a Thai intruder on one's property. If you do have a gun in your house and do shoot an intruder, it is important that you have a plan and the guts to carry it out. Your plan should be to make sure that you kill all the intruders so there are no witnesses (dead men tell no tales) and be ready to dispose of the bodies in a way that they will never be found. You should also keep some fireworks in your house just in case you are later questioned about a loud noise coming from your property. I say all this in all seriousness because the laws in many countries are very anti-vigilante and have pretty much taken away our rights to protect ourselves and are now pretty much designed to protect the criminal's rights.

I personally have always had guns in both my military and civilian life but I am not one of those gun nuts and I am very much anti-gun especially for people without proper training and a lot of experience in handling firearms. Even with the training and experience, one should not carry a gun unless they are 100% willing to pull the trigger and kill someone if the need arises. In my ideal world, no civilians but only military and police would be allowed to own guns (except for me of course).

[tb86]

If you are seriously entertaining the idea of purchasing a weapon for home defence,

first make sure you have taken all other precautions to avoid having to use deadly force.

secure doors ie not glass front , deadbolts, in conjunction with regular locks.

motion detector lights, bars on windows, security system, that is armed or its useless..

good old fashion dog, that has been trained, im not saying a "attack dog"

if you have walls around the house make sure they have some form of deterrant on them glass/metal anti intrusion bars

lastly by all means a weapon that you and your wife have been trained thouroghly to use ie no need for a large bore weapon, that your wife will not be able to handle. good luck with that shotgun when someone wakes you when they are already in the room.

a light weight 9mm or .22 cal is more than enough to stop a intruder in the house. a well placed .22 from a trained marksman will do more than enough damage.

check out some producers

www.sigsauer.com p232 is good for the missus, or p220 compact

www.glock.com G26 My wife carries and shoots its light and managable for thai women

www.hk-usa.com p2000 another compact 9mm

talk to your local police and get a reliable/reputable weapons trainer if your serious

but really think it through, take the wife out shooting for the day, she may change her mind about bringing a weapon into the house

[OxfordWill]

I think you know the answer already- accident waiting to happen, how would you forgive yourself.

And, No, Im the only farang in the village!

[sassienie]

I'm sorry if this breaks forum rules, but I hope that the moderators will allow this thread to stay open. I ask posters to refrain from being flippant as this is a serious subject.

The last few days people have started to return to the village, Songkran is coming up and that's to be expected. Some of these people are ok, but some are the dregs of society, when they've been in the village, a lot of things go missing, they don't earn a living by working, but by stealing or scamming. There's not so many rich pickings in the tourist areas and they are back here now.

A main road runs very close to the village and recently people on motorbikes have been stopped and robbed. Today a lady was riding her motorbike home and her husband was following in their car. Two men stopped the motorbike and tried to rob the woman. Her husband in the car behind had a gun. He stopped and his wife ran back to him. When his wife was out of the way, he let off 3 shots but missed. The 2 men ran and he followed to our village. Everybody here knows who the men are (about 19 years old), but they will not tell the man, because he will kill them for sure.

We sleep with a super sharp machete in the room because my lady is scared of some of the people in the village. I'm ok with that as long as it is out of reach of the 3 year old daughter.

After this happened today, she has announced that she wants to get a gun!

I understand her fears, I am the only Farang in the village and an obvious target. But I really don't want to have a gun in the house. It would be an accident waiting to happen.

Has anybody else had experience of this?

What sort of area do you live in? Paranoia in its ultimate form.

Get yourself a gun and you are asking for a whole load of trouble.

I took police advice about this subject some time ago and was told that if I was to cause injury or kill someone with any sort of weapon, including a criminal trespasser who enters onto my property with ill intent, I would be required to prove that any actions of an attack by a criminal justified the use of deadly force against them.

Even in Thailand being some sort of self-styled vigilante is not tolerated under the law.

If you are so concerned and paranoid about security, than get a couple of large dogs as a deterant or have cameras and burgler alarms fitted.

Edited March 31, 2009 by sassienie

[Ulysses G.]

A 22 cal with a stinger load (similar to birdshot in a shotgun is a definite party stopper.

I Googled this, but could find no information on why it would be a good self defence round. Can you explain more?

[flying]

A 22 cal with a stinger load (similar to birdshot in a shotgun is a definite party stopper.

I Googled this, but could find no information on why it would be a good self defence round. Can you explain more?

He may have confused the names

A stinger made by CCI in 22LR is a heavy ( for 22 ) Bullet with high velocity

Where as the birshot type is just that a mini shotgun shell in 22 cal

Pictures of both below

[LooseCannon]

...

LooseCannon. If you think my post " Offensive generalisation " then report it instead of moaning about it. Nobody else seems to take offence with it. In generalising I'm refering to the majority where I live. If the people where you live are different then obviously you live in an oasis in Thailand. Probably Patataya, Bangkok or Phuket where people don't get robbed and every one abides with the law. Perhaps 'loong' needs to move to where you live ?

No, not moaning about it - just highlighting the stupidity & ignorance of your comment. It's always entertaining to see how the clowns that make these ridiculous generalizations try to justify them. You have certainly not failed to disappoint with such a mealy-mouthed qualifier to your original comment. The rest of your reply is just a futile attempt to distract & as such is just irrelevant nonsense.

Your ignorance would probably have gone unnoticed except that not 10 minutes later you post this....

If you shot someone you just say the wife did it. Job done, no comeback.

Not willing to accept the consequences of your own actions, a most suitable epitaph for you would be "Drunk or sober,a coward until the end"

[Ulysses G.]

I don't understand why a tiny 22 round filled with birdshot would be such an effective "self-defence" round as it would not seem to penetrate very far or do very much. He also mentions the 12 guage shotgun round which is very poweful and uses fairly big pieces of steel. THAT makes sense to me.

[TAWP]

I've similar problem with the OP. We have an isolated house (closest neighbour is at around 5km) and lately we heard of burglary in the nearby village. There are a lot of property development in our area, which means a lot of imported workers and they are the ones who create the trouble.

I don't believe a gun is the real solution but she insists she will feel safer if we have one. I agreed (no real choice, I don't want to come home and discover some smuggled gun bring by some "friends") but I insisted she gets proper training first. Does anybody know where one can get some basic training near Bangkok or Korat ?

There are several ranges in Bangkok to practise at with her own gun. Or a borrowed/rented too.