the pros, cons/risks of keeping weapons for self protection

[TAWP]

I'm beginning to see the sense in getting a gun...Toting a Gun - Short Cut to 24 Hour Police Protection

I know the Thai law the BiB come in for a lot of flack but they've got my support on the No Guns for Foreigners thing. The last thing Thailand needs is armed redneck loosers.

I agree, no red neck loser. However responsible, trained and mentally stable farangs can own guns any day for me.

Now troll on in another thread Mr "Doesn't even live in Thailand".

[TAWP]

Agreed - unfettered civilian gun obsession is an American idea that leads to higher murder rates.

False, as the US is not the country with highest guns per capita. There isn't at all a direct correlation between law abiding gun owners and violence in general in the society [or hand guns used in crime].

[flying]

I don't understand why a tiny 22 round filled with bird shot would be such an effective "self-defense" round as it would not seem to penetrate very far or do very much. He also mentions the 12 gauge shotgun round which is very powerful and uses fairly big pieces of steel. THAT makes sense to me.

Without looking back at the post I think he or you have it confused.

Perhaps he meant the stinger was a good enough round in 22

but your right the lil bird shot 22 would be considered less lethal.

Might make a nice deterrent in a non lethal way.

Then again many folks do the same with a 12ga

They load the first two rounds bird shot then the rest 00 buck

[Ulysses G.]

A 22 cal with a stinger load (similar to birdshot in a shotgun is a definite party stopper.

I Googled this, but could find no information on why it would be a good self defence round. Can you explain more?

This is the statement that I am refering to.

[submaniac]

My recommendation would be for a Glock 26 in 9mm. It's very small, very light, and will always fire. Probably the most rugged hand gun there is. If you are going to get a handgun, I would stick to 9mm. It's got the lightest recoil, so she shouldn't have a problem controlling it. But more important to me is the availability of ammo. 9mm is the most popular handgun round in the world, and you will have no problems finding it in Thailand as many police use 9mm as well. It is also the least expensive round to practice with. I don't know what the pricing is of .45 ammo is in Thailand but in the USA it is significantly more expensive than 9mm. A 50 round box of Winchester White Box (practice ammo) is about $14-15. A 50 round box of the same WWB in .45 is about $24.

But if I had my choice, the sawed off 12 gauge shotgun is probably the best defensive weapon for home defense.

[Ulysses G.]

But if I had my choice, the sawed off 12 gauge shotgun is probably the best defensive weapon for home defense.

Does a riot shotgun with about an 18 inch barrel fall into this category, or does the barrel need to be so short that the weapon is not legal?

Edited March 31, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[coventry]

...

LooseCannon. If you think my post " Offensive generalisation " then report it instead of moaning about it. Nobody else seems to take offence with it. In generalising I'm refering to the majority where I live. If the people where you live are different then obviously you live in an oasis in Thailand. Probably Patataya, Bangkok or Phuket where people don't get robbed and every one abides with the law. Perhaps 'loong' needs to move to where you live ?

No, not moaning about it - just highlighting the stupidity & ignorance of your comment. It's always entertaining to see how the clowns that make these ridiculous generalizations try to justify them. You have certainly not failed to disappoint with such a mealy-mouthed qualifier to your original comment. The rest of your reply is just a futile attempt to distract & as such is just irrelevant nonsense.

Your ignorance would probably have gone unnoticed except that not 10 minutes later you post this....

If you shot someone you just say the wife did it. Job done, no comeback.

Not willing to accept the consequences of your own actions, a most suitable epitaph for you would be "Drunk or sober,a coward until the end"

LooseCannon, I did 12 years with the 'Colours'. How many years did you do ? I'm going to a reunion in September if you care to accompany me and maybe you would care to make your statement of being a coward to my friends. I'm sure they're in need of a bit of a laugh.

[Beardog]

A 22 cal with a stinger load (similar to birdshot in a shotgun is a definite party stopper.

I Googled this, but could find no information on why it would be a good self defence round. Can you explain more?

Stinger rounds were very popular in 1968 the outside bullet is in a blue plastic casing same as a 12 -20 -or a 10 gauge shotgun shell is red. they are use full in hunting birds with 22 cal rounds.If you were to get hit by a stinger round it would be the same as a shotgun on a smaller scale. Not surprised google does not have it listed. It may be a popular site but is thoroughly worthless in finding a lot of info. Remington & winchester used to make the rounds. They are still around in the U.S. but from what I understand getting them over here would be a nightmare. But a hollow point & cross file the round will take out just about anything. Hollow points are available every where. & a simple file will give you the cross filed round that mushrooms & takes out several organs. Not pretty but very effective in self protection.

I would side with Submaniac on the 12 gauge choice- not to much chance of the bird shot going to far & it won't penetrate brick,but boy howdy the recipient is toast and any brave other kamoies in the clan are gonna be headin for the hills quick after seeing their bro all over the wall.

12 gauge shotguns are available here in Thailand upon meeting the requirements. I am not sure if sawing off the barrel is legal here. But I would imagine be it a Thai or a farang that kills someone you can bet your but you will wind up in the court system.

I have a 9mm. Glock in Nevada but it is way more than I would consider knowing how quick that round would go through brick & possibly into the outlying neighborhood. The other thing to consider in a country where life is cheap the family might come to avenge if you were to waste their son.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Beardog

[Ulysses G.]

Thanks!

[Birdman]

I'm beginning to see the sense in getting a gun...Toting a Gun - Short Cut to 24 Hour Police Protection

I know the Thai law the BiB come in for a lot of flack but they've got my support on the No Guns for Foreigners thing. The last thing Thailand needs is armed redneck loosers.

...face your personal paranoia.

Therapy: It's easy, GuestHouse: Leave the place and move to the South. Because you are Issan married does not mean you have to live there. Come to Farang country in Thailand like Samui and you get healed.

[Birdman]

So much poor advise, typical really.

You would be surprised how many people actually become victims of the weapon they personally introduce into situations.

You should NOT get a firearm unless you are prepared to train, learn all the skills required, including firearm retention & practise with the weapon on a regular basis.

Honestly, this is a serious issue, it should be treated seriously, if you follow the wrong advice the weapon you buy will most likely be the one that takes your life.

My final comment about this would be, if you go ahead & buy this firearm & effectively use it on an intruder, what do you think is going to be the final outcome on this, as far as the legal system goes here in Thailand?

good advice

another one: think first and be prepared!

install spotlights around your house and sirens - the switch in the sleeping room - install cameras, also faked ones - buy a dog or two - have that pepper spray

think again - look at your surroundings - speak with the locals

best advice at all if you feel unsafe: Move

Edited March 31, 2009 by Birdman

[Beardog]

A 22 cal with a stinger load (similar to birdshot in a shotgun is a definite party stopper.

I Googled this, but could find no information on why it would be a good self defence round. Can you explain more?

He may have confused the names

A stinger made by CCI in 22LR is a heavy ( for 22 ) Bullet with high velocity

Where as the birshot type is just that a mini shotgun shell in 22 cal

Pictures of both below

Thanks thats the one . Been a while since I used a small caliber pistol or rifle.

birdshot in the face or the gut is devastating. close range (only) will blow your eyes out along with other features -same as a shotgun on a smaller scale. I think I would rather get hit with a regular round 22 if I had to choose(not that I would like to experience such a nasty experience. At least with a 22 cal the round has a lot of velocity & usually goes through a body opposed to a whoopin a mini shotgun blast would have.

Still I think the main point is how you might feel after killing a man. I have a lot of buddies from Vietnam war & they are all physiologically messed up to some point. Hunting for food is one thing but killing someone is a whole different scenario.

[submaniac]

But if I had my choice, the sawed off 12 gauge shotgun is probably the best defensive weapon for home defense.

Does a riot shotgun with about an 18 inch barrel fall into this category, or does the barrel need to be so short that the weapon is not legal?

I think your riot shotgun is correct. I've just never heard of it referred to is a 'riot shotgun'. For home defense I would want the barrel short so it is not so cumbersome that it would impair your ability to 'sweep the room'. I don't know what the legal requirements are in Thailand. But in the States, short barreled weapons fall under the NFA (National Firearms Act) which covers full automatics, silencers and of course SBR's. You can have it but you have to pay a $200 tax, and it must be legal in the State that you live. In Thailand, there are more requirements to own a gun, so I do not know if there are laws which would prohibit someone from sawing down the barrel of a shotgun.

I personally think that a shotgun would be better than a handgun in a home defense situation. For people who know handguns (like you with your military experience), they also know that they are inaccurate and sloppy compared to a long gun. It is not that hard to miss paper even at 25 feet with a handgun. Couple that with the fact that in a defensive situation it will be dark, you may be half awake, surprised, etc., I see alot of problems. Shotgun, you got a wide area covered, and the pellets aren't going to punch through the walls as readily as a handgun round. With practice, you can get 'surgical' with a shotgun.

[balo]

I never understand you Yanks , the way you think guns will solve any problems!

More guns around and more chances of disasters to happen, it will sooner or later end with a tragedy.

And in Thailand , even if attacks on farangs happens more often, most of the times it could have been avoided.

If you feeil unsafe its ok with security alarms , dogs, cameras , good neighbours, but guns? No way.

[LooseCannon]

LooseCannon, I did 12 years with the 'Colours'. How many years did you do ? I'm going to a reunion in September if you care to accompany me and maybe you would care to make your statement of being a coward to my friends. I'm sure they're in need of a bit of a laugh.

Take umbrage at being called a coward? A bit of self-righteous indignation perhaps?

You seem quite comfortable in labelling a whole group of men as cowards, yet....

Do I detect just the slightest hint of hypocrisy?

"I'm sure they're in need of a bit of a laugh" - is that when you tell them about hiding behind your wife?

[Ulysses G.]

If you feeil unsafe its ok with security alarms , dogs, cameras , good neighbours, but guns? No way.

We have all of this, but our alarms have gone off by mistake several times and NO ONE has called police or come over to check if there was a problem - EVER. When I have called the police about a problem, it took them hours to show up. What do you do when you wake up in the middle of the night and a bunch of armed teenagers are in your house trying to break down your bedroom door?

There is only one thing that might improve your odds and that is a weapon that can hold off a number of criminals without having to be a blackbelt in Ju Jitsu.

[Ulysses G.]

I personally think that a shotgun would be better than a handgun in a home defense situation. For people who know handguns (like you with your military experience), they also know that they are inaccurate and sloppy compared to a long gun. It is not that hard to miss paper even at 25 feet with a handgun. Couple that with the fact that in a defensive situation it will be dark, you may be half awake, surprised, etc., I see alot of problems. Shotgun, you got a wide area covered, and the pellets aren't going to punch through the walls as readily as a handgun round. With practice, you can get 'surgical' with a shotgun.

In the military, we mostly concentrated on learning to fire a rifle accurately, but every once in a while we would do some "familiarization" fire with handguns, so we would know how to use them in an emegency. As you said, it is amazing how easy it is to miss the target from a short distace away, in a no stress situation. I know that you can train often and improve your aim, but what would it be like when you are sleepy and scared to death?

It seems to me that a shotgun with a short barrel would be much easier to aim and that he spread of the pellets means the "bullseye" would be much easier to hit.

The problem is that I have very little experience with shotguns - none with sawed off ones - and am just guessing. That is why I am asking so many questions here.

[flying]

Shotgun spread is a misconception.

It is always said to spread out like a cone of death & that is just false.

For a defense or riot type shotgun 18" barrel the spread will be 1 inch for every yard of range traveled.

Meaning across a 18 foot room the spread will be 6 inches or like a small saucer

50 feet gets you a 16 inch pizza size spread.

So while yes a shotgun may be a bit easier to point & shoot than a handgun it still requires aiming...albeit not as precisely as a single handgun bullet. But it is not taking out multiple assailants like it does in a Hollywood movie.

But the firepower of a shotgun is still the best suited self defense gun for most.

[flying]

The problem is that I have very little experience with shotguns - none with sawed off ones - and am just guessing. That is why I am asking so many questions here.

A simple 18" non choked is fine.

Remington Express 870

Forget all the sawed off stories you hear.

That I believe only started when folks had long 26" ones with

permanent chokes installed. So they sawed them to get a shorter weapon.

Not so much for spread although movies depict that but for portability & the ability to hide them.

I think many confuse choke with other things.

http://www.shotgunworks.com/content.aspx?c...gun_Choke_Types

If in the end you decide on a 18" type home defense. There is really 2 that stand out

The Remy870 express & the Mossberg 500

Edited April 1, 2009 by flying

[Ulysses G.]

Meaning across a 18 foot room the spread will be 6 inches or like a small saucer

6 inches is way bigger than the tip of a 9mm round, but I see what you mean about being different from the movies.

[Spee]

I never understand you Yanks , the way you think guns will solve any problems!

When used legally, home protection weapons are a means to prevent or solve far more problems than they may create. That argument isn't even close. Just look at US states where concealed or open carry is commonplace with those states where the gun-grabbers have managed to take weapons from everyone except the cops and criminals.

Having lived in and around ghetto neighborhoods, I can assure that the ability to defend one's self is very self-assuring, if not necessary and prudent. If someone breaks into my home and I'm there and it's a him or me scenario, it would be shoot first and ask questions later, every day of the week.

Unfortunately, with respect to the OP, there are a multitude of reasons for an expat to resist having a gun in the Thailand home IMHO. For example:

- The main reason is the OP is a guest in the country, not a citizen. Without solid connections assured by back-handers, the OP is almost guaranteed to take the worst of it after any gun battle is over with. Even then, you might get flipped just to prevent a larger conflict.

- Vendettas and retribution seem to be a way of life with violent people in Thailand, just as they are with violent people all over the world. Even if you come out of a gun battle with the best of it, you are either going to have to look over your shoulder for the rest of your life, or get the heck out of Dodge and I do mean all the way out to a place where you can start a new life.

- For anyone with potential access to the weapon in the home, you would need to trust them 110% of the way. You cannot risk ever having a weapon used against you.

[buffcoat]

Of course aiming and firing accurately is totally different on the range to an 'emergency ' situation and personally I feel a handgun is easier to handle and aim quickly (particularly for a diminutive Thai lady).

Untrained handgun shooters particularly if they are used to rifle or shotgun can be lousy shots as they tend to cramp their hand when firing a handgun which throws off the trajectory significantly.You need a steady hand which is why you see the firing hand being supported by the non-firing hand.

Buying a firearm is a major step and you have to be prepared to use it. You need to think very seriously if it is something you believe you can/should do.

Training is vital as you are handling a tool which is designed to kill.

Security and access to the weapon is something you should consider very carefully, too many children die because they have got hold of a live weapon.

I personally would ignore the vendetta issue over killing an intruder.If you genuinely are in fear of your life or believe there is a deadly threat to your family what may happen later is a complete irrelevance.Allowing your partner or children to be raped/killed etc. because you are concerned about some hypothetical revenge is perverse.

I would also make it clear that the use of deadly force is only something that you should resort to when you are in imminent fear of death or serious harm to you and your family. The mere fact that someone is on your property or in your house by itself is not justification for deadly force.

Using a firearm is always the last resort

[loong]

Of course aiming and firing accurately is totally different on the range to an 'emergency ' situation and personally I feel a handgun is easier to handle and aim quickly (particularly for a diminutive Thai lady).

Untrained handgun shooters particularly if they are used to rifle or shotgun can be lousy shots as they tend to cramp their hand when firing a handgun which throws off the trajectory significantly.You need a steady hand which is why you see the firing hand being supported by the non-firing hand.

Buying a firearm is a major step and you have to be prepared to use it. You need to think very seriously if it is something you believe you can/should do.

Training is vital as you are handling a tool which is designed to kill.

Security and access to the weapon is something you should consider very carefully, too many children die because they have got hold of a live weapon.

I personally would ignore the vendetta issue over killing an intruder.If you genuinely are in fear of your life or believe there is a deadly threat to your family what may happen later is a complete irrelevance.Allowing your partner or children to be raped/killed etc. because you are concerned about some hypothetical revenge is perverse.

I would also make it clear that the use of deadly force is only something that you should resort to when you are in imminent fear of death or serious harm to you and your family. The mere fact that someone is on your property or in your house by itself is not justification for deadly force.

Using a firearm is always the last resort

If such a thing existed, I would award you the trophy for the most reasoned well thought out response of this thread.

[coventry]

Take umbrage at being called a coward? A bit of self-righteous indignation perhaps?

You seem quite comfortable in labelling a whole group of men as cowards, yet....

Do I detect just the slightest hint of hypocrisy?

"I'm sure they're in need of a bit of a laugh" - is that when you tell them about hiding behind your wife?

I don't take umbrage for being called a coward. I just said , basically, repeat the same statement to my friends. For me, names don't mean anything. You are entitled to your opinion, I can live with that, and it doesn't bother me as you indicate. Plus I will repeat myself in that I do find Thai males cowards when it comes to confrontation. They only seem to get violent and confrontationable when drunk. Edited April 1, 2009 by coventry

[wayfarer108]

In a nighttime burglary, if someone enters the house with a gun, and the householder has a gun as well, who will be more physically prepared to use it first?

[coventry]

In a nighttime burglary, if someone enters the house with a gun, and the householder has a gun as well, who will be more physically prepared to use it first?

The person that's most desperate.

[coventry]

12 gauge shotguns are available here in Thailand upon meeting the requirements. I am not sure if sawing off the barrel is legal here.

What requirements ? Assault shotguns come in various length barrels. Some, namely the 'Barretta', make shotguns with changeable barrel lengths. All sold legally here.

I personally bought a .22 Czech bolt action rifle. I fitted it with a German scope and bought a 'Parker-Hale' silencer, on the Internet from the UK. Not for intruders, that would be a waste of time. I bought it to shoot the chickens. The wife thinks it's because of us being burgled before. She feels more secure because of it, but I know it aint worth a rats arse in a house confrontation. At the end of the day she feels safe so...........

[eldar1]

I don't think getting a gun and keeping it the house is a good idea. Actually keeping a gun outside of a licensed professional gun club/range for any reason is a very bad idea. Fact of the matter is that guns are dangerous, and not only to the hypothetical intruder, in fact it's likely to be more dangerous to you and your family than it will be to any intruder. A couple of people here have stated that they think it's a good idea for you to have a gun and some have gone as far as to give you specific recommendations as to which models and rounds you should buy. I implore you to please think about what kind of people that are giving you this advice are. They are mostly (ex)army/police/security people. Their mindset is completely different than yours; their training has provided them with the skills and has squashed any hesitation about killing someone at point blank or otherwise. They should be the last person you should listen to. Even though they have an excellent knowledge of security matters, all their advice assumes their level of skill, which you do not posses, neither do you posses the cold blooded mindset that is required to actually kill someone.

I mean do you honestly believe that you and/or your wife, when faced with mortal danger (which naturally is the only situation that warrants the usage of a gun) will remember the code to the safe, can keep your hands still enough to insert the key, load the mag, etc and still able be able to complete the steps in a fast enough time to make a difference? Even if you can, will be able to set aside all your doubts about the legality of your actions (it's harder to prove self-defense than you might think, A LOT harder) and have the will to take a humans life? These are not easy things to do and talking about it on the internet and being all hard about it is one thing, but when actually faced with the situation, it's a whole different ball game.

Don't forget having a gun in the house is at all times a danger to you and your family, as some previously stated, kids manage to things you never believed them possible. Could you ever forgive yourself if you kid shot him/her self or a family member by accident? Have you considered the fact that the gun you brought into the house is more likely to kill you than and burglar will? Most handgun murders in the US, are committed against family members, yes your sweet wife is more likely to kill you with that gun than any intruder. Not to say that she will of course, I don't pretend to know you or your wife at all, I'm just speaking statistically. The thing is that the one emotion that overrides both our logic circuits and removes all doubt about killing someone is anger/hate. People do the strangest shit when they are angry, because when you are angry you are not thinking straight. Anger + gun = a crapton of problems.

You have to balance all these cons against the 1 pro that having a gun in the house brings: a sense of safety. In my personal opinion it's a more an illusion than an actual increase of safety, but one can argue both ways.

In conclusion, do you have the training to stay cool and collected under extreme stress? Do you have no qualms about murdering a human in possible self defense? Are you willing to take the risk that children or family members hurt themselves, each other or you with said gun? Are you sure that no one in the house will use your gun against you or that you use it against them in anger? If you answered yes to all these questions then yes go ahead and get the gun. hel_l go get the biggest baddest gun you can legally own, perhaps a dessert eagle 0.5 cal? Maybe some hydra shock rounds, or explosive tips?

Sorry for rambling on like that, i'll try not to do it again.

[LooseCannon]

I don't take umbrage for being called a coward. I just said , basically, repeat the same statement to my friends. For me, names don't mean anything. You are entitled to your opinion, I can live with that, and it doesn't bother me as you indicate. Plus I will repeat myself in that I do find Thai males cowards when it comes to confrontation. They only seem to get violent and confrontationable when drunk.

Repeating this same childish & manifestly absurd assertion ad nauseum only serves to compound it's stupidity & thus devalues anything constructive that you may have said in the past & or may say in the future.

Making no attempt at any logical or evidenciary argument to support such a ridiculous comment when it's veracity is challenged only highlights your limited ability to reason.

It would be interesting to know how you can live amongst a group of people that you hold in such contempt.

[Birdman]

I don't think getting a gun and keeping it the house is a good idea. Actually keeping a gun outside of a licensed professional gun club/range for any reason is a very bad idea. Fact of the matter is that guns are dangerous, and not only to the hypothetical intruder, in fact it's likely to be more dangerous to you and your family than it will be to any intruder. A couple of people here have stated that they think it's a good idea for you to have a gun and some have gone as far as to give you specific recommendations as to which models and rounds you should buy. I implore you to please think about what kind of people that are giving you this advice are. They are mostly (ex)army/police/security people. Their mindset is completely different than yours; their training has provided them with the skills and has squashed any hesitation about killing someone at point blank or otherwise. They should be the last person you should listen to. Even though they have an excellent knowledge of security matters, all their advice assumes their level of skill, which you do not posses, neither do you posses the cold blooded mindset that is required to actually kill someone.

I mean do you honestly believe that you and/or your wife, when faced with mortal danger (which naturally is the only situation that warrants the usage of a gun) will remember the code to the safe, can keep your hands still enough to insert the key, load the mag, etc and still able be able to complete the steps in a fast enough time to make a difference? Even if you can, will be able to set aside all your doubts about the legality of your actions (it's harder to prove self-defense than you might think, A LOT harder) and have the will to take a humans life? These are not easy things to do and talking about it on the internet and being all hard about it is one thing, but when actually faced with the situation, it's a whole different ball game.

Don't forget having a gun in the house is at all times a danger to you and your family, as some previously stated, kids manage to things you never believed them possible. Could you ever forgive yourself if you kid shot him/her self or a family member by accident? Have you considered the fact that the gun you brought into the house is more likely to kill you than and burglar will? Most handgun murders in the US, are committed against family members, yes your sweet wife is more likely to kill you with that gun than any intruder. Not to say that she will of course, I don't pretend to know you or your wife at all, I'm just speaking statistically. The thing is that the one emotion that overrides both our logic circuits and removes all doubt about killing someone is anger/hate. People do the strangest shit when they are angry, because when you are angry you are not thinking straight. Anger + gun = a crapton of problems.

You have to balance all these cons against the 1 pro that having a gun in the house brings: a sense of safety. In my personal opinion it's a more an illusion than an actual increase of safety, but one can argue both ways.

In conclusion, do you have the training to stay cool and collected under extreme stress? Do you have no qualms about murdering a human in possible self defense? Are you willing to take the risk that children or family members hurt themselves, each other or you with said gun? Are you sure that no one in the house will use your gun against you or that you use it against them in anger? If you answered yes to all these questions then yes go ahead and get the gun. hel_l go get the biggest baddest gun you can legally own, perhaps a dessert eagle 0.5 cal? Maybe some hydra shock rounds, or explosive tips?

Sorry for rambling on like that, i'll try not to do it again.

- good post.

Don't know exactly about the situation in the US or OZ, but in Europe almost nobody has a gun or would ever consider to get a gun. So for the average German, Belgian, Swede... in Thailand that is a complete new issue.