Ready To Tear The Country Apart

[caf]

Thank you so much, I do feel free to post as I see fit. Koo was insulted and demeaned on here tonight by the PAD supporters if you are keen to stamp out flaming?

I watched this country nose dive in the 90's and finally pick it self up this century and start behaving like a country going forward.

We had major construction, and the beginnings of a health service, both of which The democrats tried to block.

IMHO which I am entitled to, Thaksin shook this country to its roots and people started believing that if could achieve greater things. Which ever side you may take now, there is no hope at all of this country achieving anything whatsoever in the next decade.

The Genie is out of the bottle and with the information highway, the poorer people of this country can read about how wealthy people are in Bangkok. They can also see on television every night the difference in the standard of living and housing in Bangkok over where they live. Impossible that this can be stamped out or glossed over.

You are either a democracy or miilitary state and I know where the worlds press are placing thailand these days.

Completely agree Gramps. When we use reason and logic, as well as our own observations over a long period of time, we make for a more compelling point of view. I just want to read more of this, and less sniping and jabbing, from everyone, myself included!

Completely agree too. I get frustrated by some of the flaming posters who can not back up their arguments

[Koo82]

Koo, Im just glad you didn't join your friends in torching 20 buses, parking LPG gas trucks next to apartment buildings, and assaulting people at the market, etc...

I only came to show how many are against Abhisit and those behind his back. I'm not a hard core red.

I've heard from tv that the buses were 50, not 20 and some buses were not those running on that route.

Edited April 17, 2009 by Koo82

[Koo82]

When they could have these people out, why didn't they stop those yellows from blocking Government House and airports?

No red will stay quiet when double standard is seen here.

[Koo82]

Nothing is done to those blues attacking the reds in Pattaya?

When there were police and soldiers to keep security for the Asean Summit, why were there blues?

Only the reds are punished so far. Yellows and blues are free. And the reds should stay quiet. We now have enonomic problems

[sriracha john]

keen to stamp out flaming?

Completely agree Gramps.

I just want to read more of this, and less sniping and jabbing

That would definitely carry more weight if you cited someone OTHER than one of the highest deleted-posts-per-total-posts-ratio posters in forum history.

ANYWAY... just returned from 6 days on Koh Maak without internet or television and it looks like I might have missed a news article or two... since I left, so it's been interesting catching up.

[sriracha john]

........................................................

Good to see you made it through all of this, koo...

Sorry your team lost.

Edited April 17, 2009 by sriracha john

[Sandstone Art]

When they could have these people out, why didn't they stop those yellows from blocking Government House and airports?

No red will stay quiet when double standard is seen here.

Different government administrations dear.

[Sandstone Art]

Nothing is done to those blues attacking the reds in Pattaya?

When there were police and soldiers to keep security for the Asean Summit, why were there blues?

Only the reds are punished so far. Yellows and blues are free. And the reds should stay quiet. We now have enonomic problems

Maybe some red wore blue to create confussions during the Asean Summit?

BTW, the reds out-numbered those blues and stormed into the hotel and scare the daylight out of those VIPs attending the summit.

Reds need to be punished for being so easily brain washed by ThudSin !

[somluck]

If there is any ISC ( Internal Security Act ) in Thailand, I hope that the govenment will put that to good use.

Lock that sq skull headed up with any others that is causing trouble ! Maybe also throw away the keys!

Who's the loser who propose this?

Democracy wise thailand already wound back the clock by few decades. Now you are advocating detention without trial?

[grandpops]

........................................................

Good to see you made it through all of this, koo...

Sorry your team lost.

Another great post. Full of reason, substance, inteligent remarks and wit.

Welcome back. I heard that you resigned and was.... sit down now

saddened!! Not enough to top myself but I did actually miss you!

[Plus]

I watched this country nose dive in the 90's and finally pick it self up this century and start behaving like a country going forward.

We had major construction, and the beginnings of a health service, both of which The democrats tried to block.

IMHO which I am entitled to, Thaksin shook this country to its roots and people started believing that if could achieve greater things. Which ever side you may take now, there is no hope at all of this country achieving anything whatsoever in the next decade.

The Genie is out of the bottle and with the information highway, the poorer people of this country can read about how wealthy people are in Bangkok. They can also see on television every night the difference in the standard of living and housing in Bangkok over where they live. Impossible that this can be stamped out or glossed over.

What do you mean by nose dive in the 90's? Thaialnd was the fastest growing economy in the world for the frist five years, the new tiger. Do you forget that part and remember only the crisis?

Do you mean to say that rural folks had no idea what was happening in Bangkok then? Do you mean to say they saw the difference until Thaksin told them about it after the coup?

It was during the 90's that Thailand built all those huge highways and the BTS and MRT. Thaksin hasn't started any infrastructure projects, just oversaw the completion of MRT. In fact that was his gift to the country after five years of prosperity - no new investments in anything, not in roads, not in trains, not in communications, not in IT. Five good years wasted.

Oh, yeah, there was the airport, and cracks and CT scandals - enough money to go around for all his chronies.

[animatic]

And he didn't start the airport either.

He just colluded big time in the fitting out phase.

Edited April 17, 2009 by animatic

[Old Man River]

We had major construction, and the beginnings of a health service, both of which The democrats tried to block.

IMHO which I am entitled to...

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. In your opinion, what are you talking about? What did the Democrats try to block? This is the first time since 2001 that they are leading a government, so whatever you mean, it would have to be in the last few months. What construction and health service have they blocked?

[Sandstone Art]

If there is any ISC ( Internal Security Act ) in Thailand, I hope that the govenment will put that to good use.

Lock that sq skull headed up with any others that is causing trouble ! Maybe also throw away the keys!

Who's the loser who propose this?

Democracy wise thailand already wound back the clock by few decades. Now you are advocating detention without trial?

The real loser is someone that don't even dare to quote the source where the text come from.

What's wrong with dentention without trial? Some other countries that are already a few decades ahead of others are upholding the Internal Security Act.

If the act is useless, it will not be enacted in the very first place.

Thaksin and his cruel cronies should be hunted down like Osama Bib Laden and drive him/them into those caves to shut him/them up!

[sriracha john]

Thaksin uses City profits for new venture

The former owner of Manchester City plans to use his profits from the sale of the club to set up a new telecoms business in Dubai.

Thaksin Shinawatra told the Reuters news agency that he will set up a telecommunications consulting business in one of Dubai's free economic zones.

Shinawatra saw a good return on his investment in Manchester City. He bought the club in July 2007 for £81.6m and sold to Abu Dhabi royal Sheikh Mansour for a reputed £210m in August 2008.

The former Thailand prime minister is in self-ex......for the full story register now for free or login below...

http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/n...ws_section=4148

- The Business Desk / 17th April 2009

[Old Man River]

We had major construction, and the beginnings of a health service, both of which The democrats tried to block.

IMHO which I am entitled to...

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. In your opinion, what are you talking about? What did the Democrats try to block? This is the first time since 2001 that they are leading a government, so whatever you mean, it would have to be in the last few months. What construction and health service have they blocked?

Excuse me, you said tried to block. OK, what construction and health service did they try to block?

[hawker9000]

The country is not about to tear itself apart... 'Never was. Much face had been lost leading up to the recent red-shirt protests to be sure; I believe there was an inevitability to them and the violence they introduced. Their outcome involved even more loss of face however for the reds, and that explains the attempt on Sondhi I gather. But I think it winds down from here. I"m not saying the pro-Thaksin fanatics will now just fade away entirely. I do think it would take something unexpected to reverse Thaksin's sinking prospects at this point.

[seri thai]

pretty good take on the situation from Thanong, I think. from his blog

April 15:

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thanong/2009/04/15/

April 16:

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thanong/2009/04/16/

IMO fair & perceptive analysis of the karmic cycle trapping progress here from Prof Dr Likhit Dhiravegin in todays BKK post. I reprint the last two paras:

Looking for an answer? Look deeply into the culture and the educational system. Some aspects of our culture are admirable but some leave much to be desired and need to be reformed immediately. Such elements in our culture as the negative side of the patron-client system, superstition, lack of discipline and public responsibility, sycophantic tendency, excessive hedonism, anomic individualism of person vis-a-vis social organisations, etc, should probably be re-examined.

Our educational system needs to be overhauled. Learning by rote, destruction of selfhood or personhood through the process of de-individuation because of the emphasis on conformity, the non-development of self-confidence and self-esteem, etc, bode ill for the creation of a free man with self-respect.

There is indeed an urgent need for a character education. There is need to have an educational system which can come up with well-educated and well-trained human resources for the coming era. This new personality created for the rough terrain of the new era is one with not only knowledge but also morality and ethics and sophistication of an international level.

The way I see it both sides are bludgeoning each other with the same repressed nationalist mentality and rhetoric which has been absorbed into the national psyche.

The only way forward is political and social reform. I think there needs to be cross-party parliamentary reconciliation as Abhisit indicates but at the same time this doesn't mean falling into the same old style of whitewashing and re-constituting crooked politicians. New standards have to be set and observed. It may take generations but it crucially comes down to the level of social education and acceptance of personal responsibility by all members of society. This means reduction of the inculcated Sakdina system of thought and all it represents. Sink or swim time!

[Ricardo]

Thaksin uses City profits for new venture

The former owner of Manchester City plans to use his profits from the sale of the club to set up a new telecoms business in Dubai.

Thaksin Shinawatra told the Reuters news agency that he will set up a telecommunications consulting business in one of Dubai's free economic zones.

Shinawatra saw a good return on his investment in Manchester City. He bought the club in July 2007 for £81.6m and sold to Abu Dhabi royal Sheikh Mansour for a reputed £210m in August 2008.

The former Thailand prime minister is in self-ex......for the full story register now for free or login below...

http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/n...ws_section=4148

- The Business Desk / 17th April 2009

Wasn't there some American (named Monson ?), who previously went into a similar business with Senor Thaksin, but regretted it later ? And isn't there a case outstanding, regarding the loan to finance a telecoms-satellite, for Burma ? Not entirely an encouraging business-record. But this is only consulting.

Nice to see that it will be located in a tax-free zone, a tried-and-tested technique, to maximise the profits !

But weren't the proceeds of the sale of Man-City rumoured to have been frozen ... must have been a false rumour ... or perhaps the tax due, on the profits of the deal, has now been negotiated & paid ?

[animatic]

The country is not about to tear itself apart... 'Never was. Much face had been lost leading up to the recent red-shirt protests to be sure; I believe there was an inevitability to them and the violence they introduced. Their outcome involved even more loss of face however for the reds, and that explains the attempt on Sondhi I gather. But I think it winds down from here. I"m not saying the pro-Thaksin fanatics will now just fade away entirely. I do think it would take something unexpected to reverse Thaksin's sinking prospects at this point.

I think this more refers to Thaksin being ready, willing,

and fortunately not fully able, to tear the country apart,

as viewed from the thread's starting date of last week.

[LawnGnome]

Ahhh...almost a full page of reasonable, well thought out posts from animatic, plus, old man river, etc... Its so pleasant around here when the crazy people aren't stirring up trouble with their nonsense.

[hammered]

Have the Peau Thai party condemned the thrrats to burn down people's residences and attacks on people and property by the red shirts yet? In most countries an opposition while questioning the role of authorites would have unequivocably also condemnedthe acts of the red shirts. It will be interestin to see whether they can show they are a party of the people or just a party designed to carry out the bidding of one group, some would say one man.The answer to initial question will determine the answer to what they are.

[animatic]

Optimus, merci.

I will also note your rational posting style stands out,

way out vs the typical newbie posters here.

Welcome and bein venue au TV.

[animatic]

Have the Peau Thai party condemned the thrrats to burn down people's residences and attacks on people and property by the red shirts yet? In most countries an opposition while questioning the role of authorites would have unequivocably also condemnedthe acts of the red shirts. It will be interestin to see whether they can show they are a party of the people or just a party designed to carry out the bidding of one group, some would say one man.The answer to initial question will determine the answer to what they are.

Not to say that hypocracy is a Puea Thai specialty,

but just a day or so ago Chalerm was demanding a joint session of parliment

to excoriate the government for putting down the riots. Said riots started, aided

and abetted by Puea Thai MPs from the red shirt stages, while wearing red shirts.

No so far they have not in any way I have seen substantively decried the violence.

I note MP Jutporn used his MP status to avoid arrest with his other co-conspirators

for starting and directing these riots and social disorder.

The dragnet for suspects seems to be reaching out from PTP to PPP and TRT MP's also.

Gee, seems a pattern to me. What do ALL these people have in common?

And it isn't love of true democracy either.

Edited April 18, 2009 by animatic

[Old Man River]

Ahhh...almost a full page of reasonable, well thought out posts from animatic, plus, old man river, etc... Its so pleasant around here when the crazy people aren't stirring up trouble with their nonsense.

Flattery will get you everywhere. Who do I make the check out to?

[TAWP]

Ahhh...almost a full page of reasonable, well thought out posts from animatic, plus, old man river, etc... Its so pleasant around here when the crazy people aren't stirring up trouble with their nonsense.

Flattery will get you everywhere. Who do I make the check out to?

My name is 'CASH".

[jayboy]

Opinion CHANG NOI

The rage before the rampage

Published on April 20, 2009 (The Nation)

IN THE RED RALLY from April 8 at Government House to the blockade of Victory Monument, we heard a passion and venting of rage that rarely rises above the surface. By breaking taboos, by naming names, Thaksin smashed other mental shackles (how easy it was). Of course, some protesters parroted the talk of "real democracy" from Thaksin and other leaders. But in interviews, vox pops and video clips, people repeatedly talked about unfairness, injustice, privilege, double standards and a sense of utter frustration. This was a moment of terrible clarity. Such thoughts acquire new meaning when they are spoken out aloud and shared.

The rampage that followed was both appalling and pathetic. From the moment it became clear that a scrappy, nasty and obviously ill-fated attempt to provoke urban disorder was underway, the red crowd began to melt away. The planned rallies at provincial halls drew a fraction of the numbers there a few days earlier. The crowd at Government House thinned to a few thousand by the time of the surrender.

PROLETARIAN STRUGGLE

But who comprised this crowd at its height? We have to guess from the faces and other facts. They seemed mostly in the age range of 25-45; mainly male (perhaps 3-to-1); more Thai than Chinese in features; jeans and sneakers as standard dress.

On April 8, the crowd swelled to 100,000, then dropped to 25,000 overnight, before rebuilding on the following day, suggesting most had a home nearby. Many had vehicles - taxis, motorcycles, songtaew trucks.

The best guess is that the core members were migrants who had moved to the capital to work in easy-entry occupations like hired motorcycle or taxi driver, vendor, construction worker and other casual labour.

The rage is not difficult to understand. The motorcycle driver lives his working life in the exhaust fumes of air-conditioned saloons. He is constantly harassed by the corrupt police, while watching the Benz owners break the law with impunity. He is only in Bangkok because farming has declined over a generation of persistent government neglect while public funds were poured into the highways that wreathe Bangkok.

One surprise in the red rhetoric was the appearance of amathiyathipatai. Forty years ago, the word was invented to translate "bureaucratic polity", a term used by an American scholar to label Thailand's military dictatorship. It had been confined to the world of academia, and almost forgotten.

But someone unearthed it to mock the military-backed Democrat government as a throwback to the distant past. Thaksin picked it up. Red orators repeated it. By April 8 it was emblazoned on the backdrop of the Government House stage, pared down to "amat", preceded by a single ringing call, "Overthrow!"

Of course, almost none of the audience could parse the word's Sanskrit-Pali roots, or know its obscure academic history. But clearly they responded to its feel. Amat joins a list of terms (patronage system, privilege, double standard) that grope to convey the gut feeling of being victim of multiple injustices.

Thaksin's populism was not only about what he gave to people (cheap healthcare, micro loans) but also how he gave it. His personal style was hot, active, open. He made people feel they had some power. He made them sense they had a leader they could own. He gave them an inkling that their vote could matter, and a hope that it could be a tool to gain a lot more.

REDRESSING WRONGS

The trashing of democracy over the past two-and-a-half years has blasted those hopes. The coup not only removed Thaksin, but also announced a U-turn in leadership style. In person, General Surayuth can be warm and amiable. As prime minister, he chose to play the ultimate bureaucrat - body closely controlled, face devoid of expression, eyes drained of emotion, coolant in the veins.

Abhisit, of course, is almost frenetic in comparison. But his carefully controlled speech, aloof manner and failure to look through the camera into the eyes of his audience still give him a bureaucratic aura. He reminds us that the Democrats are famous for telling people not to protest but wait in their villages until the benevolent government has time left over from the arduous task of saving the country to attend to them.

Many are now clamouring for Abhisit to reach beyond his faithful fans. Perhaps it's better to look at the situation from the bottom up.

Over the last three years, Thailand has developed two socio-political movements, red and yellow. They represent different parts of the population, and have contrasting ideas about change. Up to now they have been fighting on the streets with buses, golf clubs and cooking gas tankers, holding the national economy hostage. Parliamentary democracy was developed so that such conflict between people and ideas may be resolved under peaceful conditions.

Here, it has not been allowed to perform this function - for many reasons. "Money politics" gets in the way. Some people want to believe there is no conflict. Some with a Cold War mentality and training in manipulation cannot resist playing puppet masters in the background (Panlop is a great example). Many are just scared they will lose.

This is a delicate and desperate moment. If the red and yellow movements can be translated into parliamentary politics, they could begin to drive out money politics. If they cannot, the prospects are dire. Building a Great Wall around Bangkok won't work. The Trojan Horse is already inside.

Embrace the proposal to return to the 1997 constitution with some fixes for its few well-known failings. Amnesty the 220 banned politicians. Don't try to stifle the red voice; listening is better. Punish the yellow on par with the red or others will do it for you. Stop worrying about the Nicaraguan special ambassador. Bring back a properly elected parliament and government as soon as possible. Accept the result and let the system work. Never again give the puppet players the support they don't deserve.

Don't use the rampage as an excuse for ignoring the rage.

[mc2]

^^^ well its hardly any revelation.

Most Thais know this anyway.

yellow ribbons tied around the tanks shooter thing (whats the name of it, dont know)... images all over the tv during the coup .....

whats interesting is the alleged justification ..... not corruption ... but disloyalty.

i imagine if the justification was for corruption the reaction would have been

but for disloyalty...

Edited April 20, 2009 by mc2

[Plus]

Embrace the proposal to return to the 1997 constitution with some fixes for its few well-known failings. Amnesty the 220 banned politicians. Don't try to stifle the red voice; listening is better. Punish the yellow on par with the red or others will do it for you. Stop worrying about the Nicaraguan special ambassador. Bring back a properly elected parliament and government as soon as possible. Accept the result and let the system work. Never again give the puppet players the support they don't deserve.

Chang Noi has totally lost the plot here.

- Embrace the proposal to return to the 1997 constitution with some fixes for its few well-known failings.

So you get something close to 2007 version. 90% of people didn't read anyway - why is it so important?

The proposal to reinstall 1997 consitution has no benefits except automatically exonerating Thaksin and his cronies.

Chang Noi is just being naive.

- Amnesty the 220 banned politicians.

People went to great lengths to make them pay for theis sins and Chang Noi thinks that excusing them would bring reconciliation. Right.

- Don't try to stifle the red voice; listening is better.

Red voice doesn't make it into national discource because it lacks any substance, devoid of any reason, lstripped of any contstructive proposals, and generally is an affront to one's intellegence.

- Punish the yellow on par with the red

Another childish idea straight from kindergarten sandbox - grow up and realise that you should punish people according to their crimes, there should be no profiling based on color.

- Stop worrying about the Nicaraguan special ambassador.

Pardon me? It was only a week since the worst violence Bangkok in nearly thirty years, and Chang Noi already tells us not to worry about it. That was exactly what we heard from "progressive" reds for ages, and see where it brought us - on a brink of a revolution. Yeah, "move on people, there's nothing to see here" - means a huge embarassment to the red cause, better forget about Thaksin's role in it.

- Bring back a properly elected parliament and government as soon as possible. Accept the result and let the system work

Would the April 2006 election qualify? It was the last election according to 1997 constitution, overruled by judiciary. Bring that back. It should give us a few fake parties but not to worry, as long as it's "true democracy".

"Bring back a properly elected parliament" - what is a properly elected parliament anyway? The current one is as "proper" as they come. Perhaps Chang Noi means that nobody important should be punished for vote buying, that would bring A LOT of reconciliation, yeah.

- Never again give the puppet players the support they don't deserve.

What? PTP won't be allowed to consult with Thaksin? Next PTP hopeful can't declare himself Thaksin's proxy? Or does it mean PTP shouldn't be allowed to run in the first place? Who's going to lead the campaign? Jatuporn?

That is the most ridiculous red demand ever.

[hammered]

While I wouldnt say Chang Noi has lost the plot, I would question that trashing of democracy began only two and a half years ago. Unless one takes the simplistic view that democracy is only elections and not rule of law etc, it began a fair while before that. Exactly when is a more interesting debate but not for here and now as it could be argued to go back a very long time.

Of course real politik dictates.

There is one other thing that needs to be said but few do: the basic red supporter or sympathiser wants election respected and some more rights and better distibution of the cake; the basic yellow supporter or sympathiser wants the rule of law, the functioning of checks and balances and less corruption. These two concepts are not mutually exclusive in fact in most democracies they go hand in glove. It is the games of those who actually care little for these things that result with them on completley different and diamtrically opposed poles. At some point logic would suggest this will no longer be the case.

There are a lot of analysts etc appealing for a new start right now and Abhisit seems to be doing so too. Lets see if this can actually get beyond the power play.

Final comment is that in the 2007 charter whose flaws are well known, certain people's rights were also enshrined which werent in the 1997 version. Things like this dont need to be tossed. There is no reason to toss the baby wioth the bath water.