Child Abuse: Can The Police Deal With It?

[anonymo]

NOTE TO ADMIN - Please can you ensure my anonymity, thank you.

I need some advice and fast.

Does anyone have any experience of resolving child abuse (sexual) in Thailand?

I have more than a suspicion of sexual abuse taking place in the Thai side of my family. My first reaction was to provide some violence with extreme prejudice but common sense kicked in.

I need to know if I report the situation to the police:

- will the children (yes, plural) involved be treated sensitively?

- will the 'alleged' abuser but treated as innocent until proven guilty?

Please, if you are knowledgeable on this subject or have experience with the authorities here in Thailand, let me have your thoughts.

Thank you.

[Shola]

NOTE TO ADMIN - Please can you ensure my anonymity, thank you.

I need some advice and fast.

Does anyone have any experience of resolving child abuse (sexual) in Thailand?

I have more than a suspicion of sexual abuse taking place in the Thai side of my family.  My first reaction was to provide some violence with extreme prejudice but common sense kicked in.

I need to know if I report the situation to the police:

- will the children (yes, plural) involved be treated sensitively?

- will the 'alleged' abuser but treated as innocent until proven guilty?

Please, if you are knowledgeable on this subject or have experience with the authorities here in Thailand, let me have your thoughts.

Thank you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well as harsh as it may seem it depends on how wealthy the 'accused' is and weather his/her(?) family are of status here, as if yes to both then the chances of any kind of prosecution are near to nil, sorry to say but my experience with the law here is that you can own it if you a) have enough cash b ) have a reputable family name.

So I would first decide if the 'accused' fits these catogories, as if so your life would become very hard indeed.

Perhaps an anonymous call to the police is in order first??

[anonymo]

Well as harsh as it may seem it depends on how wealthy the 'accused' is and weather his/her(?) family are of status here, as if yes to both then the chances of any kind of prosecution are near to nil, sorry to say but my experience with the law here is that you can own it if you a) have enough cash b ) have a reputable family name.

So I would first decide if the 'accused' fits these catogories, as if so your life would become very hard indeed.

Perhaps an anonymous call to the police is in order first??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not wealthy and no status - but very, very angry with me for 'sticking my nose in'.

Anonymous call to the police would not work - the family know how angry I am about 'gleng jai', face, embarassment etc stopping them from dealing with this.

I need some reassurance that the authorities are capable of dealing with this kind of situation sensitively and without creating a witch hunt.

[Ijustwannateach]

I think your only choices are either to move away and ignore it, or have the children "kidnapped" and raise them yourself or with a sympathetic relative. Child welfare has a long way to go here. Good luck.

"Steven"

[Shola]

I think your only choices are either to move away and ignore it, or have the children "kidnapped" and raise them yourself or with a sympathetic relative.  Child welfare has a long way to go here.  Good luck.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's such a hard dicision as there would need to be irefutable evidence of the crimes plus if the police decided to put the kids into care, basically a thai orphanige that would be horroble for the kids also as these places are hardly decent. The only way is if the guy was jailed but that would still take evidence and probably a long court case, meanwhile the kids still have to live with the guy who's now ultra pissed off.

Unless like 'ijustwannateach' said kidnap them and raise them elsewhere?

[Boo]

I hope Kat is online today as I beleive she has some experience with this working with abused women in Thailand, she may have some contact numbers for child welfare in Bangkok, who make take a more harsh view on this attrocity. One thing you need to ask yourself though. Are you 100 percent sure that this is happeneing before you open a whole can of worms?

[anonymo]

I think your only choices are either to move away and ignore it, or have the children "kidnapped" and raise them yourself or with a sympathetic relative.  Child welfare has a long way to go here.  Good luck.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I cannot move - children, business, wife etc.

I will not ignore it.

'Kidnapping' still remains a possibility.

If anyone has any experience with or contacts for child welfare of any kind I would be very grateful.

[anonymo]

It's such a hard dicision as  there would need to be irefutable evidence of the crimes plus if the police decided to put the kids into care, basically a thai orphanige that would be horroble for the kids also as these places are hardly decent. The only way is if the guy was jailed but that would still take evidence and probably a long court case, meanwhile the kids still have to live with the guy who's now ultra pissed off.

Unless like 'ijustwannateach' said kidnap them and raise them elsewhere?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes - this episode definitely fits into the hard decisions category.

I want to be certain that the guy is not being falsely accused (he has been one of my closest Thai friends) but as we are talking about 2 girls of 7 and 9 years old here I find it very hard to believe that they are lying. If they are lying it is still important to find out where the 'story' came from. I believe the children as do all the family bar one - this is only adding to my anger and concern, the family believe the children but fear broken face more than further abuse of the children.

The male adult in question can be removed from the family unit without any long term upset - he is a single male and part of the extended family not a father or a brother.

He is a very angry man at the moment and denies the accusations completely but all the signs from his behaviour and denials point to him being guilty - this simply adds to the urgency of the situation.

[Tornado]

What area are we talking about?

[anonymo]

I hope Kat is online today as I beleive she has some experience with this working with abused women in Thailand, she may have some contact numbers for child welfare in Bangkok, who make take a more harsh view on this attrocity. One thing you need to ask yourself though. Are you 100 percent sure that this is happeneing before you open a whole can of worms?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If there is anyway that you can put me in contact with Kat please, please do so.

However, I am not in Bangkok.

Can any third party be 100% certain about any accusation like this? This is also one of my main concerns, I think you can see that from my earlier replies which is why I really need to communicate with someone who knows the system and the procedures that are followed for dealing with child abuse.

[Explorer]

Send the girls for a medical check-up and get a firm results from the doctors.

Try to ask the hospital if there is any child care for these type of victims (if they are confirm one).

Maybe with further research with the hospital you might get some links on how to handle the situation.

Explorer

[anonymo]

What area are we talking about?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My gut is telling me to be very nervous about identifying myself in this forum but I can't justify that concern so - I am in Chiang Mai.

[anonymo]

Send the girls for a medical check-up and get a firm results from the doctors.

Try to ask the hospital if there is any child care for these type of victims (if they are confirm one).

Maybe with further research with the hospital you might get some links on how to handle the situation.

Explorer 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for that very sensible suggestion - I will talk to my doctor first.

[Tornado]

What area are we talking about?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My gut is telling me to be very nervous about identifying myself in this forum but I can't justify that concern so - I am in Chiang Mai.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If it was Bangkok, I could of helped, sorry I have no contacts in Chiang Mai - good luck!

Make sure you do help as saviours are becoming extremely rare.

[anonymo]

What area are we talking about?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My gut is telling me to be very nervous about identifying myself in this forum but I can't justify that concern so - I am in Chiang Mai.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If it was Bangkok, I could of helped, sorry I have no contacts in Chiang Mai - good luck!

Make sure you do help as saviours are becoming extremely rare.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for responding to my post - could you give me the Bangkok contacts anyway, maybe they can point me in the right direction in Chiang Mai.

[Khutan]

A large ISO 9000+ Hospital should have this sort of facility. Probably in their Peadatrics department.

My ex dealt with this sort of situation. When children start talking about specifics in this subject, thet obviuosly they have not normally been exposed to it is a "Very strong sign", firstly they have knowledge you weld never expect them to have and secondly, they are trying to "Talk themselves better"

Good luck

[anonymo]

A large ISO 9000+ Hospital should have this sort of facility. Probably in their Peadatrics department.

My ex dealt with this sort of situation. When children start talking about specifics in this subject, thet obviuosly they have not normally been exposed to it is a "Very strong sign", firstly they have knowledge you weld never expect them to have and secondly, they are trying to "Talk themselves better"

Good luck

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks - I think my doctor is in an ISO900X hospital - making the call now.

Would you be prepared to tell me if your ex was able to deal with the situation succesfully?

[ZOVOX]

Sadly, such cases are way to common in Thailand. I don't think going to the police would do much good, as the child welfare here is not up to much, and sometimes it is the police who are the abusers: my wife told me of a case just recently involving the police. Your first priorty is to protect the children ! You say that he was a close friend and that he is not an immediate member of the family; I would have it out with him and use the GUILTY until proven innocent principal in this case. Unless he can convince you he didn't do it, i would make sure he is isolated from the immediate family. Also, the suggestion for a medical check-up is a good one. GOOD LUCK !!

[Shola]

Now that I've thought about it I think you should just go with what you said in your first post ' violence with extreme prejudice' and forget the commen sence, just have it out with this sicko.

[anonymo]

Sadly, such cases are way to common in Thailand. I don't think going to the police would do much good, as the child welfare here is not up to much, and sometimes it is the police who are the abusers: my wife told me of a case just recently involving the police. Your first priorty is to protect the children ! You say that he was a close friend and that he is not an immediate member of the family; I would have it out with him and use the GUILTY until proven innocent principal in this case. Unless he can convince you he didn't do it, i would make sure he is isolated from the immediate family. Also, the suggestion for a medical check-up is a good one. GOOD LUCK !!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you ZOVOX

[anonymo]

Now that I've thought about it I think you should just go with what you said in your first post ' violence with extreme prejudice' and forget the commen sence, just have it out with this sicko.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would be a vey satisfying way to deal with the problem but I think I must hold my temper because . . .

- would it help the girls?

- will I be looking over my shoulder waiting for broken legs or bullet in the head for the next few years? How many foreigners do you know that have 'survived' a violent encounter with a Thai? (I'm sorry if any Thai people reading this find that an insulting comment it is not intended to be.)

- I can't help but have a small doubt that a close friend has turned out to be a pervert of the worst kind.

I'm going with the advice from Explorer, mattnich and ZOVOX. I'm hoping to hear more from Tornado, Boo, Kat and mattnich.

[Crazy Dave]

Now that I've thought about it I think you should just go with what you said in your first post ' violence with extreme prejudice' and forget the commen sence, just have it out with this sicko.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i got to go with sholas post, the police will maybe make him pay a small amount to the parents, maybe as low as 5,000baht per child to the parents, the child is still traumatized but the parents are happy, extreme violence is a real good idea in some cases, just make sure u dont get caught, a stun gun is a good starter, then when they are unconcious u can chop their knackers off, but pls make sure that he is actually guilty, not just that u assume, ie catch him in the act and then do it. have fun

[pedro01]

I hope you resolve this...

If this guy is a parent of the abused - obiously it's going to be tough on the kids. Let's face it - it already is tough on them.

If they lose Dad, they'll probably lose the breadwinner of the family - if that happens - can you stump up for a while ?

If you want the police to take this seriously, then I'd take a lawyer to see the top man at the police station & pay to have this investigated. You'll need a Thai lawyer with you to word this properly.

Also - be careful about filing an official police report - it is a criminal offence to file a false police report. This means if you file a report & he's not convicted - you've comitted an offence.

I'd say that if the top man at the police station is a family man, then you'll have a good chance of him listening. The Thai lawyer should be able to advise you.

Cheers

Pete

[Gazza]

The male adult in question can be removed from the family unit without any long term upset - he is a single male and part of the extended family not a father or a brother.

He is a very angry man at the moment and denies the accusations completely but all the signs from his behaviour and denials point to him being guilty - this simply adds to the urgency of the situation.

The only thing that I can suggest is taking the kids to a high ranking policeman and having the kids confess to him. Then, offer the policeman a sum of money to stitch the guy up on a false charge (ie drug possession). He should be stuck away in jail for a long time and out of reach of everyone including the kids, You, and any possible contacts and/or friends that he has for seeking revenge.

I would be ultra careful taking the law into your own hands as it could come back on you. The last thing you would want is to get deported while he remains free to carry on his sick perversions.

[autonomous_unit]

...

- I can't help but have a small doubt that a close friend has turned out to be a pervert of the worst kind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If it is hard for YOU to accept, imagine how difficult it is for the children who are aware of the perp's trusted position among the adults. This is actually the cause of some of the worst psychological effects of abuse. The kids need counseling as much as a physical exam, to figure out how bad things are and to start mending. From what I know, they stand a better chance of recovery if helped while they still can admit what is going on. If it is left unspoken long enough, they will push it deep down into their psyches too, and counselers will have to dig through this horrible denial to resolve anything later.

From my perspective, you should follow your gut even if it is very impractical, i.e. have an exit strategy for your business and home if it comes to it, and forget about the friendship! These things cannot be tolerated! However, it sounds from your other posts that there should be less intrusive solutions as long as you cover the bases for protection from the angry accused.

As others have said, you may be the only one capable of changing the situation. The biggest risk to the girls, besides continued abuse, is physical retribution if the guy is shamed but not isolated from them. Beware, a typical M.O. for such abuse is for the perp to threaten the victims until they shut up. The threats are likely against them and/or their parents or loved ones, and this further screws them up with guilt and feelings of inadequacy. They need reassurance that other adults can be trusted with the truth and with helping to protect them.

[kat]

Sadly, such cases are way to common in Thailand. I don't think going to the police would do much good, as the child welfare here is not up to much, and sometimes it is the police who are the abusers: my wife told me of a case just recently involving the police. Your first priorty is to protect the children ! You say that he was a close friend and that he is not an immediate member of the family; I would have it out with him and use the GUILTY until proven innocent principal in this case. Unless he can convince you he didn't do it, i would make sure he is isolated from the immediate family. Also, the suggestion for a medical check-up is a good one. GOOD LUCK !!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you ZOVOX

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now that I've thought about it I think you should just go with what you said in your first post ' violence with extreme prejudice' and forget the commen sence, just have it out with this sicko.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would be a vey satisfying way to deal with the problem but I think I must hold my temper because . . .

- would it help the girls?

- will I be looking over my shoulder waiting for broken legs or bullet in the head for the next few years? How many foreigners do you know that have 'survived' a violent encounter with a Thai? (I'm sorry if any Thai people reading this find that an insulting comment it is not intended to be.)

- I can't help but have a small doubt that a close friend has turned out to be a pervert of the worst kind.

I'm going with the advice from Explorer, mattnich and ZOVOX. I'm hoping to hear more from Tornado, Boo, Kat and mattnich.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi. I copied the above quotes because they are the ones I agree with the most.

First, I'm glad that someone cares enough about this situation to want to take action. But, we are in SEA, and actions and results are completely different than what we expect.

There is no concept of child welfare here, and a very shaky concecpt of sexual abuse or incest. Hence, as much antidotal and verified research has shown, sexual abuse is widespread in SEA. More so than in the west, because in certain respects it is a norm (sorry if this offends, but I would not say this if I was not confident).

Face is a very strong cultural value as you mentioned, and speaking out against anyone in the family is a taboo. Actually, women who speak about sexual abuse or even rape are still made to feel shame by and large. Therefore, we are in a culture where speaking out against appearances is a bigger social taboo than the act of abuse itself.

We are also in a culture where institutions are weak (no coincidence there), and enforcement is almost nil. The police function as an official mafia force, and very often are responsible for a large portion of abusive power themselves, including, a very long history of rape and sexual abuse of female detainees. But of course, they don't limit themselves to women and girls who are locked up.

As you are probably also aware, there is a very common pattern of hired murder for people who present pesky little problems or obstacles. You need to be extremely careful, thoughtful, and more than 100% sure that the people who you think are with you on this, really are.

To start: I would not go to the police - at least not first. You say the male in question is not an immediate family member. How is the rest of the family dealing with this new information concerning him? The results will ultimately rest with them in this case, not with you. If you have their support, I would start by calling some organizations very near Chiang Mai, with a Thai person. But be warned: there is a rescue organization in Chiang Rai for underaged abused girls that receives death threats regularly. I think many of these girls were targeted for traffickers. Still, some of these detractors feel no shame in harassing and intimidating this woman in public, so that indicates the attitude.

If you do not have the unshakable support of the family members, the most you can do is serve as an example of an alternative reaction to this situation. Sometimes example is the only place to start. But it's a start.

I also don't know who you are, because you are anonymous. I understand why, but we all have our paranoia if we work on women, gender violence, or sexual abuse in SEA. I'm sorry if I sound overdramatic, but it is dangerous.

Please PM me and I will give you a list of places that you can start out by calling. Unfortunately, there is no established "center" or foundation number that you can call for abused children. But there are places to start. In the meantime, you can also try calling the Foundation for Women for orgs near Chiang Mai. I don't know how helpful they will be towards foreigners. There is also a new rape crisis center out near the airport in Bangkok. I will look into contacting them.

Summary: don't go to the police - yet; find out exactly how much concrete support you actually have from the family; if so, start calling organizations; don't expect much to happen to this guy, but you can set an example of refusal for the family, and the girls.

PM me and I will try to help you contact relevant orgs.

Take a deep breath.

Kat

[Khutan]

Would you be prepared to tell me if your ex was able to deal with the situation succesfully?

She was a case-worker for about 6 months. It drove her mad. Even in western countries, authorities are slow to act, lazy etc.

Sometimes the police were shocking, particularly reducing charges etc.

Yes she "resolved" some situations, then went back into education.

[andy50]

i dont think anoymo should get too involved in thai affairs, as it would be suicidal ,its up to the thai family to resolve the situation in their own way--just my 5 bht worth

[Tornado]

Some questions for you Anonymo.

How far do you live from the home of this guy? condo, apartment? how many in the block / street?

Could you actually enter this abode again, either welcomed or not? could you get privacy for 3 minutes?

Are you financial enough to buy a few things = 10,000 baht?

[leftcross]

where is the girl's father in all this?