Empty Condo Units In Bangkok

[trogers]

I think Trendy is the same structure built 22 years ago, Trendy is a refurbishment of the service apartment.

I wonder how many buyers were given this information before they decided ?

building standards are hardly great now - but 22 years ago OMG!

Structually, I would say that building is fine. Tower cranes and ready mixed concrete was first introduced into Bangkok back in 1980, for constructing the Central Plaza. I came here in 1983 to work for the Construction Manager who managed Central Plaza. I was involved in the Shangri-La Hotel by the river.

I believe Trendy would have been upgraded to the latest fire regulations with sprinklers in place. Only problem is the 'dormitory' floor layout with long corridors and units on both sides.

[midas]

Structually, I would say that building is fine. Tower cranes and ready mixed concrete was first introduced into Bangkok back in 1980, for constructing the Central Plaza. I came here in 1983 to work for the Construction Manager who managed Central Plaza. I was involved in the Shangri-La Hotel by the river.

I believe Trendy would have been upgraded to the latest fire regulations with sprinklers in place. Only problem is the 'dormitory' floor layout with long corridors and units on both sides.

How can you possibly know that in this case ?

They said the same thing about the refurbished Baan Sathorn-Chaophraya when they advertised it as being 5 star-

and what a joke that was. Its very lucky someone wasnt killed. It's only after an independent consultant

that the early buyers appointed that they eventually discovered just how flimsy the external panels fixed to the building

were. If they had come off in very windy conditions it would have been disastrous. And there was a huge

list of other defects.

[trogers]

Structually, I would say that building is fine. Tower cranes and ready mixed concrete was first introduced into Bangkok back in 1980, for constructing the Central Plaza. I came here in 1983 to work for the Construction Manager who managed Central Plaza. I was involved in the Shangri-La Hotel by the river.

I believe Trendy would have been upgraded to the latest fire regulations with sprinklers in place. Only problem is the 'dormitory' floor layout with long corridors and units on both sides.

How can you possibly know that in this case ?

They said the same thing about the refurbished Baan Sathorn-Chaophraya when they advertised it as being 5 star-

and what a joke that was. Its very lucky someone wasnt killed. It's only after an independent consultant

that the early buyers appointed that they eventually discovered just how flimsy the external panels fixed to the building

were. If they had come off in very windy conditions it would have been disastrous. And there was a huge

list of other defects.

I would not buy any buildings with vertical pre-cast concrete structures. Curtain wall system is okay. Even to this day, structural connection for heavy vertical precast concrete panels is still poorly detailed, and workers and engineers here are not familiar with the technology. They may be okay for single storey structures like schools and such, but not highrise.

But falling panels do not mean the foundation, columns and beams are poor. These are the elements holding the building up.

Most badly constructed structures are over 25 years old low-rise, with site mixed concrete and thin concrete cover over steel reinforcment. Most of these are at old housing estates shophouses, and government housing. Flat Din Dang is a case in point.

The two highrise that was constructed with bicycle wheels, pails and site mixed concrete in the 70s are still standing well - Indra Hotel and Chokchai Building (UOB hq).

[mjohnson282]

In regards to companies relocating here once again your analysis is flawed. Employing low cost labor does not drive condo prices in the Bangkok CBD.

Once again you demonstrate that you either can not or simply choose to fail to understand my point.

The thing is. I agree with you!!

The low costs of labour does not DIRECTLY drive condo prices, they attract manufacturers. I never said otherwise, recall that i was explaining my rationale, upon request, as to why I felt the economy might recover sooner than 20 years. Offshoring to reduce costs, its nothing new, and hardly what one could call an unreasonable assertion.

You do understand the spill over effect of having a new major manufacturer right? Its not just that factory and its revenues, or the salaries of its new employees right? Its also all those suppliers and service providers who help deliver their product to market. Its not small money. This what Thailand lives off. These frims all get to enjoy benefits of having this new manufacturer in their wake. What happens to them, when they win new projects? Is there say, a chance that some of these might be listed? .... then what happens? Think it through....

I never stated that FDI will be a magic bullet. I said it will help, it will be contributing factor. I have cited examples of where it is already happening, and Im quite sure more will come in the months ahead, but not to expand their market reach, the main purpose will be to survive!

You seem fairly knowledgable, despite the selective reading of my posts, you have managed to read and retain some local property market research on the subject (no doubt written by those you loathe..i.e. my fellow real estate agents), as well as perhaps, what, Case / Schiller? which is more than I can say for some here....

I understand that income correlation argument very well, but as you can hopefully see that we are not talking about the low cost workers as the market for buying these condos are we? I can hardly believe that you jumped to that conclusion, this is a wider view.

It is the spill over effect of additional manufacturing operations, especially exports, that benefits a Nation and eventually contributes to driving them out of recession. IMF advice to a failed State is what? I thought it was usually to reduce imports and export more...

So if existing manufacturers have reduced capacity, as they have here, then Thailand needs to get some new manufacturers. Sure this wont be easy Thailand will have to compete. Many firms will be put off by the political risk, but many wont be. (I know you may disagree on that point and fair enough... but its the truth, deal with it)

The firms who will come, most have probably been hit hard, and are offshoring to survive. So they are unlikely to come in and buy land and build. But they might opt to buy say old existing factories, or rent existing space.

This is happening, now, today, albeit at a slow pace but I think the need to reduce costs, to survive in the months ahead, will drive offshore manufacturing, a prospect which Obama hates, to greater levels.

Im not alone in this thinking too, although by your rationale PWC's opinion must also be dismissed, right?

http://www.pwc.com/extweb/ncpressrelease.n...5257521005ADFBE

http://www.pwc.com/extweb/challenges.nsf/d...525701300588b80

http://www.pwc.com/extweb/ncpressrelease.n...52575360062E2CF

@ Midas, you can continue to cite Japan, but understand that I do think the UK and USA will suffer for quite a while, the UK more so due to over reliance on financial markets, and GROSS OVERVALUATIONS, but I dont think there is any valid reason, nor precedent, to take current events in the USA and UK and marry them to Japan's experience and extrapolate them here, OR to every market in the world.

I happen to think that this scenario is a long shot too far. Does that make me naive? I dont think so. It does however make me more optimistic than you, but I am not so optimistic so as to be ignorant to the reality we are facing, far from it.

Not sure how its selective reading so much as trying to extrapolate your premise as it applies to the topic, Condos in the Bangkok CBD. Companies relocating here and FDI are both good for the Thai economy. Thanks! I did not realize it until now. The IMF could use a few good analyst perhaps you missed your calling. Since we are talking about the condo market in in the CBD of Bangkok one would assume your guarded optimism applies to this topic. Any assertion as it relates to FDI, compaines relocating here (yes you did say companies so check your posts) or whatever I would assume to applies to this topic.

I have never put much faith in brokers as they are typically overly optimistic and therefore offer a somewhat limited perspective. As both a principle and an instiutional advisor the last person I would seek for market data or an unbiased opinion is a real estate broker. Someone that received compensation for advising regardless of execution would not advise capital expenditures in Thailand.

While you are doing your research you might want to check the export numbers for the past quarter. Once China's GPD numbers roll over this summer (if you can believe anything they report), commodity prices resume their downward trend that started Q3 08, and Eastern Europe experiences a currenct crisis similar to or worse than Asia in 1997 perhaps you will adjust your optimism. There is also the ongoing deleveraging process and credit contraction. Simply put there are to many macro events happening in a compressed period of time for a optimistic recovery scenario. Is a 20 year recovery likely no, but yes it is possilbe. Typically the exporting economy is the worst preformer in this environment.

[Livinginexile]

Structually, I would say that building is fine. Tower cranes and ready mixed concrete was first introduced into Bangkok back in 1980, for constructing the Central Plaza. I came here in 1983 to work for the Construction Manager who managed Central Plaza. I was involved in the Shangri-La Hotel by the river.

I believe Trendy would have been upgraded to the latest fire regulations with sprinklers in place. Only problem is the 'dormitory' floor layout with long corridors and units on both sides.

How can you possibly know that in this case ?

They said the same thing about the refurbished Baan Sathorn-Chaophraya when they advertised it as being 5 star-

and what a joke that was. Its very lucky someone wasnt killed. It's only after an independent consultant

that the early buyers appointed that they eventually discovered just how flimsy the external panels fixed to the building

were. If they had come off in very windy conditions it would have been disastrous. And there was a huge

list of other defects.

I think you're being a little over paranoid there

I'm a construction manager myself and personally inspected the civil works during various construction phases at Trendy.

All structural formwork was as solid as the day it was laid!

All fire protection codes were adhered and building material was as per regulation standard or higher. My only fault I could find was construction time (blown out over 18mths) and finishing quality.

Trodgers you are correct. The domatory type layout of the floors are ugly. But that is my only complaint.

All in all I am very happy with the finished product. Other tenants I have met have the same opinion

Take care guys and Midas....rela dude, Bkk is not all doom and gloom

[donx]

Structually, I would say that building is fine. Tower cranes and ready mixed concrete was first introduced into Bangkok back in 1980, for constructing the Central Plaza. I came here in 1983 to work for the Construction Manager who managed Central Plaza. I was involved in the Shangri-La Hotel by the river.

I believe Trendy would have been upgraded to the latest fire regulations with sprinklers in place. Only problem is the 'dormitory' floor layout with long corridors and units on both sides.

How can you possibly know that in this case ?

They said the same thing about the refurbished Baan Sathorn-Chaophraya when they advertised it as being 5 star-

and what a joke that was. Its very lucky someone wasnt killed. It's only after an independent consultant

that the early buyers appointed that they eventually discovered just how flimsy the external panels fixed to the building

were. If they had come off in very windy conditions it would have been disastrous. And there was a huge

list of other defects.

I think you're being a little over paranoid there

I'm a construction manager myself and personally inspected the civil works during various construction phases at Trendy.

All structural formwork was as solid as the day it was laid!

All fire protection codes were adhered and building material was as per regulation standard or higher. My only fault I could find was construction time (blown out over 18mths) and finishing quality.

Trodgers you are correct. The domatory type layout of the floors are ugly. But that is my only complaint.

All in all I am very happy with the finished product. Other tenants I have met have the same opinion

Take care guys and Midas....rela dude, Bkk is not all doom and gloom

Since you seem happy with your Trendy condo, what is your reason for putting it on the market?

[paperwerks]

The Trendy is a unique property and not representative on the BKK condo market. I always thought the name was a joke and hookers outside the front door would make it a slum property but I must admit that I was wrong. I was in the building and it is ok with a nice pool and gym and hookers hanging around the bars below is seems to add value and desirability. I am impressed but not surprised that a 2 bed commands 35k per month.

There is a major slaughter in the making between Sukhumvit Onnut and Udom suk with all the new high rises being built. I live in this area and they are not selling well. I think they will eventually sell but it may take 3-5 years to absorb the glut. These projects were constructed during the boom and some locked in high steel prices etc and now they are sitting empty while the market stagnates and also declines slowly. It seems the banks are completing them and leaving them vacant and there will be no ghost buildings hopefully. Do not buy these unless you get a massive discount imo.

A friend of mine just bought an 80 sq meter unit fully fitted at Baan Onnut for $2.2M. These used to sell for 2.8+ a couple of years ago. Other similar but not as nice units are sitting there for 2.7 to 3M with no hope of selling. There are no buyers and the owner was desperate (thai lady recently divorced from falang wanting cash money quickly he he).

I just bought a newly renovated 12 year old Nirun condo for 250K and rented it out for 2500 per month (10-12% cash return). Rented in 3 days. Have 4 of these now. This low end "slum" style condo market is holding up best of all with quick sales and very few vacancies-98% thai owned and leased. Safest and best returns in the whole Thai condo market imo. Everyone poo poos and laughs at buying slums but I have a sucessful history of buying them and making money in the US and i like them here too.

That is how I see the market -all anecdotal

[Livinginexile]

Structually, I would say that building is fine. Tower cranes and ready mixed concrete was first introduced into Bangkok back in 1980, for constructing the Central Plaza. I came here in 1983 to work for the Construction Manager who managed Central Plaza. I was involved in the Shangri-La Hotel by the river.

I believe Trendy would have been upgraded to the latest fire regulations with sprinklers in place. Only problem is the 'dormitory' floor layout with long corridors and units on both sides.

How can you possibly know that in this case ?

They said the same thing about the refurbished Baan Sathorn-Chaophraya when they advertised it as being 5 star-

and what a joke that was. Its very lucky someone wasnt killed. It's only after an independent consultant

that the early buyers appointed that they eventually discovered just how flimsy the external panels fixed to the building

were. If they had come off in very windy conditions it would have been disastrous. And there was a huge

list of other defects.

I think you're being a little over paranoid there

I'm a construction manager myself and personally inspected the civil works during various construction phases at Trendy.

All structural formwork was as solid as the day it was laid!

All fire protection codes were adhered and building material was as per regulation standard or higher. My only fault I could find was construction time (blown out over 18mths) and finishing quality.

Trodgers you are correct. The domatory type layout of the floors are ugly. But that is my only complaint.

All in all I am very happy with the finished product. Other tenants I have met have the same opinion

Take care guys and Midas....rela dude, Bkk is not all doom and gloom

Since you seem happy with your Trendy condo, what is your reason for putting it on the market?

My family and I are moving to Nongkhai to open a homestay hotel, we're in no hurry but I will use the money for this.

[Livinginexile]

The Trendy is a unique property and not representative on the BKK condo market. I always thought the name was a joke and hookers outside the front door would make it a slum property but I must admit that I was wrong. I was in the building and it is ok with a nice pool and gym and hookers hanging around the bars below is seems to add value and desirability. I am impressed but not surprised that a 2 bed commands 35k per month.

There is a major slaughter in the making between Sukhumvit Onnut and Udom suk with all the new high rises being built. I live in this area and they are not selling well. I think they will eventually sell but it may take 3-5 years to absorb the glut. These projects were constructed during the boom and some locked in high steel prices etc and now they are sitting empty while the market stagnates and also declines slowly. It seems the banks are completing them and leaving them vacant and there will be no ghost buildings hopefully. Do not buy these unless you get a massive discount imo.

A friend of mine just bought an 80 sq meter unit fully fitted at Baan Onnut for $2.2M. These used to sell for 2.8+ a couple of years ago. Other similar but not as nice units are sitting there for 2.7 to 3M with no hope of selling. There are no buyers and the owner was desperate (thai lady recently divorced from falang wanting cash money quickly he he).

I just bought a newly renovated 12 year old Nirun condo for 250K and rented it out for 2500 per month (10-12% cash return). Rented in 3 days. Have 4 of these now. This low end "slum" style condo market is holding up best of all with quick sales and very few vacancies-98% thai owned and leased. Safest and best returns in the whole Thai condo market imo. Everyone poo poos and laughs at buying slums but I have a sucessful history of buying them and making money in the US and i like them here too.

That is how I see the market -all anecdotal

I agree with you paperwerks, after I sell my Trendy condo my plan is to buy a little condo around Onnut and use the rest (plus a little extra funds) to set up in Nongkhai.

I have a friend who owns 2 condos near Onnut, he bought the latest one in January for 325k. Really nice 1 bedroom in a great block. It certainly is a buyers market.

Poking around the internet I have seen a few good ones for sale.

[paperwerks]

Livinginexile,

Do you know the name of the complex or the soi that your friend bought a 1 bedroom near onnut for 325K?

Part of my risk mitigation strategy is to buy only 1 or 2 of these cheap condos in each complex and I am looking for a new place to buy into.

3 of the 4 rentals I have are on sukhumvit 93. In 18 months the skytrain will open up here and the fresh market at sukhumvit 95 will close and be replaced with a Big C. The whole area around Banjak (sukhumvit 91-97) is coming up and will really take shape once the skytrain and Big C opens.

I just think buying some of these ugly condos for 10K per square meter is a good deal now on a rental basis and should look better in the future. The thing is that the demand is there for cheap condos to buy and to rent despite the economy. Competition from new construction costs double or more to buy and rent and even that business is good here.

If you are looking to buy around here it is worth checking out Bangkok Asset Management www.bam.co.th as they sell for 5-10% below market and also renovate the unit which makes it an even better deal. They mostly have cheap condos that were reposessed.

[Livinginexile]

Livinginexile,

Do you know the name of the complex or the soi that your friend bought a 1 bedroom near onnut for 325K?

Part of my risk mitigation strategy is to buy only 1 or 2 of these cheap condos in each complex and I am looking for a new place to buy into.

3 of the 4 rentals I have are on sukhumvit 93. In 18 months the skytrain will open up here and the fresh market at sukhumvit 95 will close and be replaced with a Big C. The whole area around Banjak (sukhumvit 91-97) is coming up and will really take shape once the skytrain and Big C opens.

I just think buying some of these ugly condos for 10K per square meter is a good deal now on a rental basis and should look better in the future. The thing is that the demand is there for cheap condos to buy and to rent despite the economy. Competition from new construction costs double or more to buy and rent and even that business is good here.

If you are looking to buy around here it is worth checking out Bangkok Asset Management www.bam.co.th as they sell for 5-10% below market and also renovate the unit which makes it an even better deal. They mostly have cheap condos that were reposessed.

Hi paperwerks;

There was a typo in my last post, the condo my friend bought was a studio...not a 1 bedroom condo.

I can't remember the soi number but it is located near the end of the soi that is next to Lotus. The one that connects to the car park. close to the petrolium storage depot. It's about a 5 minute ride on a motor bike taxi.

Anyway I will email him for the exact location.

Thank you for that tip, I will check out the BAM site over the weekend. Hopefully I will be in the market soon.

Have a great weekend

[paperwerks]

<<I can't remember the soi number but it is located near the end of the soi that is next to Lotus. The one that connects to the car park. close to the petrolium storage depot. It's about a 5 minute ride on a motor bike taxi.

Anyway I will email him for the exact location.>>

Thanks, no need to email your friend. I know those condos your friend bought in and they are similar to the Niruns on soi 93. Typically, they sell for between 200-250K and rent for 2000-2500. At 2500 rent you need to install air. Tenants pay the condo fee in addition to the rent. They are good deals for me and much better than 1% interest in the bank.

Especially, if you are relocating to Nong Khai, it would be nice to keep one of these Niruns at soi 93 just for use when you come to Bangkok. Nice to have. More and more falanags over there nowadays.

BAM has an office at BTS Surasat station and have a promotion this month where they are giving away free air conditioners with any purchase (including 200K condos). Another bonus is when you buy from BAM there is no tax to pay at the land office.

[trogers]

Typically, they sell for between 200-250K and rent for 2000-2500. At 2500 rent you need to install air. Tenants pay the condo fee in addition to the rent. They are good deals for me and much better than 1% interest in the bank.

Be aware that such housing are the 2nd lowest tier in Bangkok (the lowest being shacks in slums). You may be placed in a situation where you have to evict a poor needy family for non-payment of rent and you know they will be basically driven on to the street.

Expat tenants that we normally deal with would still terminate our leases and move on to more affordable premises.

[paperwerks]

Typically, they sell for between 200-250K and rent for 2000-2500. At 2500 rent you need to install air. Tenants pay the condo fee in addition to the rent. They are good deals for me and much better than 1% interest in the bank.

Be aware that such housing are the 2nd lowest tier in Bangkok (the lowest being shacks in slums). You may be placed in a situation where you have to evict a poor needy family for non-payment of rent and you know they will be basically driven on to the street.

Expat tenants that we normally deal with would still terminate our leases and move on to more affordable premises.

trogers, this is not what I have experienced at all. I have never had a Thai not pay rent and then refuse to move. They know the rules and seems to want to save face and just leave. Although, I have not had a vacancy in a while.

The only bad problem I have had was from some illegal no work permit English teacher who I rented to against my better judgement because it was near the first of the month and I just wanted to fill the unit. The SOB lied to me weekly with a new story and a new promise until I padlocked his room shut and he couldn't get his clothes or take a shower till he paid. This is not supposed to be done here. I will never rent to a falang again and would not do this to a Thai.

Thais stay longer and complain less is what I have found. Also, I would never evict a Thai. My wife would do that if it got to that point. She handles all this.

[trogers]

Good to know you are selective in your tenants. I have heard locking out tenants are quite common for those apartments for rent along rachadapisek and ramkhampang. A Thai friend of mine owns a few blocks at ram/bangkapi area.

[Tokay]

Also seems extremely high cost for refurbishing, you build a quite nice standard house for the same money.

Does your refurbish mean you tear it down to bare shell and redo all interior walls, pipes, cabling etc etc from the scratch ?

I did. I bought a condo that is over 20 years old and did a complete refurbishment. Have a look at the final results:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/2-bedroom-2-...um-t245532.html

I did not use high end stuff like deco market kitchen, or imported furnitures, or lots of tempered glass stuff, or Bt150,000 spa baths, etc.

I optimized cost to get a balanced atmosphere. Noticed I used a 6-panel aluminium sliding door which opens out 2/3.

That is a nice looking unit. Curious, what is the price you were able to rent it out for?

[Livinginexile]

Also seems extremely high cost for refurbishing, you build a quite nice standard house for the same money.

Does your refurbish mean you tear it down to bare shell and redo all interior walls, pipes, cabling etc etc from the scratch ?

I did. I bought a condo that is over 20 years old and did a complete refurbishment. Have a look at the final results:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/2-bedroom-2-...um-t245532.html

I did not use high end stuff like deco market kitchen, or imported furnitures, or lots of tempered glass stuff, or Bt150,000 spa baths, etc.

I optimized cost to get a balanced atmosphere. Noticed I used a 6-panel aluminium sliding door which opens out 2/3.

That is a nice looking unit. Curious, what is the price you were able to rent it out for?

Good location too, I love that area around soi 22-24.

[trogers]

Also seems extremely high cost for refurbishing, you build a quite nice standard house for the same money.

Does your refurbish mean you tear it down to bare shell and redo all interior walls, pipes, cabling etc etc from the scratch ?

I did. I bought a condo that is over 20 years old and did a complete refurbishment. Have a look at the final results:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/2-bedroom-2-...um-t245532.html

I did not use high end stuff like deco market kitchen, or imported furnitures, or lots of tempered glass stuff, or Bt150,000 spa baths, etc.

I optimized cost to get a balanced atmosphere. Noticed I used a 6-panel aluminium sliding door which opens out 2/3.

That is a nice looking unit. Curious, what is the price you were able to rent it out for?

It is being let out at Bt45k - 6%pa yield after taxes and maintenance.

[trogers]

I am now in the juristic committee of 2 condos trying to educate the other owners to relax rules regarding permission to renovate individual units - rules regarding areas that border between private and common areas like main entrance, balcony and running new drainage and waste pipes to the vertical ones.

Here is an example of the main entrance from my over 20 year old unit.

[hhgz]

Can we assume that the first two are the "before" photos, and the last two are the "after" photos?

[hhgz]

"I am now in the juristic committee of 2 condos trying to educate the other owners to relax rules regarding permission to renovate individual units..."

Why do you think that YOU have the right to modify the Condo Act? Perhaps as a member of the juristic committee you should become familiar with the new Condo Act (the entire act is contained in the Government Gazette, dated March 6, 2008, beginning on page 58).

For your information:

Section 48:

A resolution on the following matters must have the votes of not less than a half of the total votes of the joint owners...

(3) A permission to a joint owner to build, decorate, make a change in, alteration on or addition to his own unit at his own expenses which adversely affect the common property or the external features of the condominium.

The penalty for performing the changes without the proper approval of the majority of owners is covered in:

Section 72:

A joint owner whoever carrying on a construction, decoration of, modification on, change in or addition to his unit in violation of Section 48 (3) shall be liable for punishment of a fine not exceeding one hundred thousand baht.

In summary, if you did not have the approval of at least one-half of the owners in your condo, you can be fined 100,000THB for changing the exterior of your condo unit.

[trogers]

"I am now in the juristic committee of 2 condos trying to educate the other owners to relax rules regarding permission to renovate individual units..."

Why do you think that YOU have the right to modify the Condo Act? Perhaps as a member of the juristic committee you should become familiar with the new Condo Act (the entire act is contained in the Government Gazette, dated March 6, 2008, beginning on page 58).

For your information:

Section 48:

A resolution on the following matters must have the votes of not less than a half of the total votes of the joint owners...

(3) A permission to a joint owner to build, decorate, make a change in, alteration on or addition to his own unit at his own expenses which adversely affect the common property or the external features of the condominium.

The penalty for performing the changes without the proper approval of the majority of owners is covered in:

Section 72:

A joint owner whoever carrying on a construction, decoration of, modification on, change in or addition to his unit in violation of Section 48 (3) shall be liable for punishment of a fine not exceeding one hundred thousand baht.

In summary, if you did not have the approval of at least one-half of the owners in your condo, you can be fined 100,000THB for changing the exterior of your condo unit.

That's the beauty of buying an old condo...more than half the units already have made changes in some form or another.

The point is, how changes can improve the space of the condo unit, and enhance the exterior of the building.

Whoever drafted this law forgotten about old condos and just made some sweeping laws more applicable to new condos. But at least they mentioned a leeway - "not less than half".

If any juristic member were to raise any oohaas, the first question will be, did you raise this issue in an AGM and the majority said 'no'? Why did you not raise the issue for a vote? Look at the building and you can see changes made by more than half the owners.

[hhgz]

"Whoever drafted this law forgotten about old condos and just made some sweeping laws more applicable to new condos. But at least they mentioned a leeway - "not less than half"."

I'm not sure why you believe that the phrase "not less than half" provides you the leeway for you and the other condo owners to do as you wish. It does not. The fact that prior condo committee members have allowed unauthorized changes to be made does not "grandfather" your condo development to allow you to do anything you want. I'm not sure why you have to "educate" the other committee members to relax the law, if you - and they - have no intention of enforcing the law. Regardless, if a condo owner raises the issue, the owners who make unauthorized changes after the new condo law was enacted face a fine of 100,000THB.

[trogers]

"Whoever drafted this law forgotten about old condos and just made some sweeping laws more applicable to new condos. But at least they mentioned a leeway - "not less than half"."

I'm not sure why you believe that the phrase "not less than half" provides you the leeway for you and the other condo owners to do as you wish. It does not. The fact that prior condo committee members have allowed unauthorized changes to be made does not "grandfather" your condo development to allow you to do anything you want. I'm not sure why you have to "educate" the other committee members to relax the law, if you - and they - have no intention of enforcing the law. Regardless, if a condo owner raises the issue, the owners who make unauthorized changes after the new condo law was enacted face a fine of 100,000THB.

Perhaps I was not too clear in pointing out.

I said I am in the juristic committee of 2 condos. In the over 20 years old condo, there is no issue. In fact, it was because of how I renovated my unit that I was appointed into the committee in the AGM last Dec. Before I came, the best rent a similar size renovated unit can get is Bt30,000, while a non-renovated unit is getting only Bt25,000.

It is in the other condo project which is about 14 years old that I am also renovating at this moment that I am educating the other property owners. My primary change is simple - replace the 2-panel sliding aluminum door with a 3-panel one, and enclose the air compressors hung above the balcony with aluminum grilles. All other changes are internal.

The purpose in relaxing rules is to increase the selling price of the condo units. Unit owners who are seeking to sell their old condos (as some said 'rubbish junk units') can find buyers who also has the capital to renovate it to a classy junk. Unit owners who wants to rent their units out can renovate now with less hassles. Owner-occupiers can have an improved neighbourhood when rental rates increase, as oppose to the development sliding into a slum. But all these will depend on the location of the condo building...as in all property investment.

Thus, like I have said, the present condo laws have not been taken old condos into consideration.

[hhgz]

Oh, your point is all too clear.

"The purpose in relaxing rules is to increase the selling price of the condo units."

No, the purpose of "relaxing the rules" is a method of violating the condo act. The rest of the committee seems to understand the notion of "at least 50% of the owners must approve a measure", something that you personally disagree with. It doesn't matter that half of the owners violated the condo act, and changed the exterior of the units. You seem to think that if half of the owners did something illegal, then it's legal. It's not. It's relatively easy to correct the past mistakes, and making things comply with the condo act, and again, it's something you'd rather not deal with. I understand that refurbishing a unit will increase its value, and you need to understand - something that the other committee members and owners seem to follow - it takes at least 50% of the owners to approve any change to the exterior of the unit. If everyone thinks that changing the exterior of their unit is a good idea, why is it necessary for you to tell them to "relax the rules"? You seem to want the owners to do anything they want and the condo act prevents that. What if someone wanted to paint the exterior of their unit in bright yellow, and have "King BNE" spray painted on it in black. Is that OK? Heck, you think that it's a "come as you are party" an that "anything goes". The condo act prevents that from happening, and you're trying to subvert the law.

Again, if you change the exterior of your unit without the approval of at least 50% of the other owners you're facing a fine of 100,000THB.

You seem to believe that the "old condos" were not covered by any law. That's not true. The current law is the 4th version. I'll leave it up to you to review the older revisions of the law, and see how they affect your development. But, hey, you're so willing to ignore the current law, I'm sure the previous laws mean nothing to you.

[trogers]

Oh, your point is all too clear.

"The purpose in relaxing rules is to increase the selling price of the condo units."

No, the purpose of "relaxing the rules" is a method of violating the condo act. The rest of the committee seems to understand the notion of "at least 50% of the owners must approve a measure", something that you personally disagree with. It doesn't matter that half of the owners violated the condo act, and changed the exterior of the units. You seem to think that if half of the owners did something illegal, then it's legal. It's not. It's relatively easy to correct the past mistakes, and making things comply with the condo act, and again, it's something you'd rather not deal with. I understand that refurbishing a unit will increase its value, and you need to understand - something that the other committee members and owners seem to follow - it takes at least 50% of the owners to approve any change to the exterior of the unit. If everyone thinks that changing the exterior of their unit is a good idea, why is it necessary for you to tell them to "relax the rules"? You seem to want the owners to do anything they want and the condo act prevents that. What if someone wanted to paint the exterior of their unit in bright yellow, and have "King BNE" spray painted on it in black. Is that OK? Heck, you think that it's a "come as you are party" an that "anything goes". The condo act prevents that from happening, and you're trying to subvert the law.

Again, if you change the exterior of your unit without the approval of at least 50% of the other owners you're facing a fine of 100,000THB.

You seem to believe that the "old condos" were not covered by any law. That's not true. The current law is the 4th version. I'll leave it up to you to review the older revisions of the law, and see how they affect your development. But, hey, you're so willing to ignore the current law, I'm sure the previous laws mean nothing to you.

You seems to misunderstand the difference between 'changing the exterior of the building' and allowing unit owners to change certain elements of their units that borders with the exterior of the building and thus will affect its appearance.

If a building changes its exterior, the cost has to be shared by the owners through the common fund. If a unit owner changes his windows and doors, the cost is paid by that unit owner. Same with covering air-con compressors with grilles.

Whatever it is, the fine is 'not exceeding Bt100,000' and not fixed at Bt100,000 for every offense. Who determines the quantum of the fine? The court. And a 2nd point is, 'adversely affect the exterior of the building or common property'. Take the photos of the exterior or common area and show the court how an 'offense' adversely affect the exterior. The court will need to see the extend of adversity to make judgement. So if 50% of the owners hang up and display their old dirty compressors and you have been charged for keeping things neat and decent, hmmm...how much will the court fine you?

What I said is very simple: make a provision in writing allowing unit owners to make changes on elements bordering the exterior and common areas, in line with new design and material technology. Put it as an AGM resolution for voting. Once its is passed by the majority, new condo buyers will know the extend that they can make changes and will offer prices for the purchase of the old condo units accordingly. Or is such a provision not permitted in the new condo laws?

[trogers]

If everyone thinks that changing the exterior of their unit is a good idea, why is it necessary for you to tell them to "relax the rules"?

Do you know the difference between 2,3 and 4 panels sliding aluminium doors?

[hhgz]

"You seems to misunderstand the difference between 'changing the exterior of the building' and allowing unit owners to change certain elements of their units that borders with the exterior of the building and thus will affect its appearance."

No, I understand it perfectly. You misunderstand both the intent and the letter of the law. The situation is that you are not allowed to change anything that is at the exterior of the unit. That includes the front door of your condo unit, the color of the paint of the door frame outside of your condo unit, or even the address block that has your unit number on it. You don't agree with that, and that's OK. It seems as though - from your attempt to educate the other owners and condo committee members - everyone else understands the rules, and you do not.

[trogers]

"You seems to misunderstand the difference between 'changing the exterior of the building' and allowing unit owners to change certain elements of their units that borders with the exterior of the building and thus will affect its appearance."

No, I understand it perfectly. You misunderstand both the intent and the letter of the law. The situation is that you are not allowed to change anything that is at the exterior of the unit. That includes the front door of your condo unit, the color of the paint of the door frame outside of your condo unit, or even the address block that has your unit number on it. You don't agree with that, and that's OK. It seems as though - from your attempt to educate the other owners and condo committee members - everyone else understands the rules, and you do not.

I see. So the following starting statement in the new condo law is not valid?

Section 48:

A resolution on the following matters must have the votes of not less than a half of the total votes of the joint owners...

[hhgz]

"I see. So the following starting statement in the new condo law is not valid?"

It is valid, and you're talking in circles. You are the one who wants to circumvent that particular point of the condo law.

It's difficult to know if you are really ignorant, or just playing. You are the one who is trying to get the owners and the rest of the condo committee to relax the rules. If you change the front door of your condo, and at least 50% of the condo owners don't approve it, you are liable for a fine up to 100,000THB. It's pretty simple.

The fact that the rest of the owners and the condo committee memebers understand the law, and you don't, I guess that means you're not "playing dumb".