Empty Condo Units In Bangkok

[trogers]

"I see. So the following starting statement in the new condo law is not valid?"

It is valid, and you're talking in circles. You are the one who wants to circumvent that particular point of the condo law.

It's difficult to know if you are really ignorant, or just playing. You are the one who is trying to get the owners and the rest of the condo committee to relax the rules. If you change the front door of your condo, and at least 50% of the condo owners don't approve it, you are liable for a fine up to 100,000THB. It's pretty simple.

The fact that the rest of the owners and the condo committee memebers understand the law, and you don't, I guess that means you're not "playing dumb".

Oh, I understand the rules. And I have said they are not drafted with old condo properties in mind. That is why I am educating the other owners of a 14 year old condo building to vote for a resolution to make alterations of condo elements bordering the exterior or common areas legal. An EGM is scheduled this coming 23rd. See if this resolution gets over 50% votes.

As for the 20 year old condo, I am currently renovating a bigger unit. Hmmm...still waiting for someone to collect the Bt100,000 for my first unit - over 6 months now.

Edited April 13, 2009 by trogers

[hhgz]

"I have said they are not drafted with old condo properties in mind."

You are wrong, again. You should check the earlier version of the condo act. As I mentioned earlier, it's easy to rectify what has occurred in your building, and bringing it into line with the newest condo act, and you have no interest in doing that. Just because you got away with something, doesn't mean it's legal. You think you're smart, but you have a long way to go

[trogers]

"I have said they are not drafted with old condo properties in mind."

You are wrong, again. You should check the earlier version of the condo act. As I mentioned earlier, it's easy to rectify what has occurred in your building, and bringing it into line with the newest condo act, and you have no interest in doing that. Just because you got away with something, doesn't mean it's legal. You think you're smart, but you have a long way to go

Thai way of doing things is not to force the will of the majority on the minority, especially when it means incurring cost. Getting a resolution passed to upgrade the exterior of the building, or to force those owners who made changes to 'unchange' them may look easy on paper, but it is the wrong approach if you want to build unity and friendliness in a community.

My approach do not force those who do not or cannot afford, to make any changes. But just allow new buyers of the old units to make changes to increase yield in their investment.

Hopefully, you do not adopt this attitude in your dealings in neighbouring countries. They still like to settle things with a bullet.

[Scott123]

I think Trendy is the same structure built 22 years ago, but was converted to a service apartment in early 90s. When the hotel owner, Khun Chavalit passed away, the property was divided up. Trendy is a refurbishment of the service apartment. And the plot that was Ambassador Plaza became the failed speculative development. Now stood only the Ambassador hotel, a shadow of its past.

I think the ceiling height of the units at Trendy is a bit lower than current standard, although the lobby area seems ok.

[trogers]

I think Trendy is the same structure built 22 years ago, but was converted to a service apartment in early 90s. When the hotel owner, Khun Chavalit passed away, the property was divided up. Trendy is a refurbishment of the service apartment. And the plot that was Ambassador Plaza became the failed speculative development. Now stood only the Ambassador hotel, a shadow of its past.

I think the ceiling height of the units at Trendy is a bit lower than current standard, although the lobby area seems ok.

What is current standard?

[midas]

I accept that the economy is weak now and will get weaker still, but I also believe that we will emerge from this quicker than you expect, and the actual realisation will most probably emerge somewhere between our views.

Do you still feel the same way now quiksilva ?

some people are even saying there is a possibility this will

descend into the redshirts and yellow shirts

leaving bombs in public places around Bangkok.

[trogers]

I accept that the economy is weak now and will get weaker still, but I also believe that we will emerge from this quicker than you expect, and the actual realisation will most probably emerge somewhere between our views.

Do you still feel the same way now quiksilva ?

some people are even saying there is a possibility this will

descend into the redshirts and yellow shirts

leaving bombs in public places around Bangkok.

Anyone what to sell off their properties at 65% of acquisition price? PM me.

Edited April 17, 2009 by trogers

[quiksilva]

I accept that the economy is weak now and will get weaker still, but I also believe that we will emerge from this quicker than you expect, and the actual realisation will most probably emerge somewhere between our views.

Do you still feel the same way now quiksilva ?

some people are even saying there is a possibility this will

descend into the redshirts and yellow shirts

leaving bombs in public places around Bangkok.

Despite what you might like to think I am not entrenched in one particular point of view. I am happy to adjust my position to reflect new information as it comes to light.

Recent events have certainly made the situation here a lot worse, no argument about that. How much worse it gets, remains to be seen. It could get much, much worse, but who can say with certainty that it will?

At this particular point in time I feel its senseless to hold firm views one way or the other, as the outlook is decidedly uncertain. The only certainties today are that the tourism and the residential sectors will be a write off this year, except perhaps a few pockets of resorts popular with Thais, and even that's doubtful.

There are all sorts of fears one can raise (PAD coming out in force to seek revenge for Sondhi's shooting, bombs etc), just as there are hopes for the restoration of stability. Admittedly at this very moment, there are probably more fears than hopes, and that's only natural given the events of this past week, but lets see what happens.

I will readily admit that I tend to look on the bright side and look for opportunities even in the face of adversity, and that outlook seems to be working out for me, even today.

So I still contend that a recovery in the market and the economy (and to be crystal on this point, I do not mean to the same levels we have seen recently) can happen before the 20 year timeframe that you suggested, and only time will prove one of our outlooks to be correct, as I said before,

the actual realisation will most probably emerge somewhere between our views

For those looking for a dissertation on the subject, and want research to back up every point. Sorry to disappoint, as with all my posts its all IMHO.

[Scott123]

I think Trendy is the same structure built 22 years ago, but was converted to a service apartment in early 90s. When the hotel owner, Khun Chavalit passed away, the property was divided up. Trendy is a refurbishment of the service apartment. And the plot that was Ambassador Plaza became the failed speculative development. Now stood only the Ambassador hotel, a shadow of its past.

I think the ceiling height of the units at Trendy is a bit lower than current standard, although the lobby area seems ok.

What is current standard?

I believe the ceiling height at Trendy is just over 2 m. Their low ceiling height is quite noticable.

Many new grade A condos now have 3m ceiling height. For example, Tonglor 8

see the following craigslist ad:

THB115000 per sq.m., 1+1bed, 1bath Condominium for sale (Thonglor 8)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply to: [email protected] [Errors when replying to ads?]

Date: 2009-04-21, 9:49AM ICT

THB115,000 per sq.m., 1+1bed, 1bath Condominium for sale

Size: 86.45 sq.m., 9/F (1+1bed, 1bath, big balcony, 3m. ceiling height, facing south, east)

Price: THB9,941,750 (115,000/sq.m.)

If you are interested in the unit, please give me a call at 66 81 9306691 or email me at [email protected] or for more details at www.8thonglor.com.

Thank you.

it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests

PostingID: 1132317129

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright © 2009 craigslist, inc. terms of use privacy policy feedback forum

Edited April 21, 2009 by Scott123

[Scott123]

Also, when I checked out some re-sell units at Trendy, I noticed most units has no kitchen range hook. Only one has the range hook, but the exhaust fan does not blow to outside, only circulate inside the room, so cooking is not suitable in these units. This building is definitely not grade A, but the resellers are asking grade A prices.

[jcon]

I've been observing 3 buildings from the balcony at Icon II Thonglor: Icon III, The Height, and Noble Ora, all in plain view... also i can see the Hamptons (I think that's what it's called, a bit further down the road). I comment almost everyday how empty these buildings are. The Height (the one really really close to the road on Thonglor has I swear 2 tenants... Icon III has a few but not all lights are on by any measure... and Noble Ora (while actually a good project IMO, only 50K/psm when I was first looking at units) seems to be pretty empty too... or else people really like the dark and never turn on their lights.

Smaller buildings, like Icon II, and other smaller private buildings (2 rooms per floor, as opposed to 30) are always full... and these are where the well-off live from what I've seen.

Just my 2 cents from what I see from the balcony. But The Height I swear is the emptiest building I've seen, and I do observe it every evening when I smoke from the balcony... I swear I saw signs that said it was 'sold out' 2 years ago...

Clover Thonglor soi 18 (Benz thonglor) is a ghost building because they are having BMA problems... that's 500 units that can't be transferred...

Again, from what I've seen, the wealthy Thais live in the smaller more private buildings and the big big projects are either for speculation or just not sold out.

How long has Raimon land been flogging the Lofts Yenakart? 5 years now? What a POS.

Even the 'middle class' condos, the huge ugly ones that go for 2 million to say 5 million look dead from what I see around town...

I would go 2nd hand, pre 1997 buildings which have a proven record of maintenance and good tenants.... then deck it out to high standard, and save yourself a bunch of money... quality has been sacrificed in a big way in ALL of the new units coming online, A grade or not... Athenee? Grade A my ass.

[quiksilva]

Completely agree Jcon, if I was shopping for a condo I'd be looking at older, mid rise or preferably low rise buildings with established property management teams where you are likely to get a larger unit in a better location for a much more reasonable price.

[DONEWITHIT]

I'm definitely no expert.All I am is someone looking at craigslist,baht and sold,fair properties and Thai visa classifieds every single day for the last 6 months.Agents have taken over everything.Individual owners are maybe 5% or less.The same properties are listed over and over.Some agents post the same pictures for different advertised units repeatedly.(That makes sense)

I have no real estate background only common sense thinking here that if they're posting the same properties over and over that the majority of properties aren't moving well.

Does the price come down to reflect this?---NO

so I guess this is a TIT thing!!!

In searching the listings daily I see more and even more of the same agent listings(even from 6 months ago)yet no drop in price.

In the old days agents would put in a single ad saying to contact them,now people named frank,gerwin,david,charles,erin,sara,more and more flood what used to be an interesting venue to look for classifieds and have ruined it by reposting overpriced condos repeatedly.How can you stop them?Many of these people post the exact same properties.I think if you look at this as an outsider you would think no-one is buying these expensive condos at those prices after all these months so why don't they drop prices?Well tit.

[Scott123]

I'm definitely no expert.All I am is someone looking at craigslist,baht and sold,fair properties and Thai visa classifieds every single day for the last 6 months.Agents have taken over everything.Individual owners are maybe 5% or less.The same properties are listed over and over.Some agents post the same pictures for different advertised units repeatedly.(That makes sense)

I have no real estate background only common sense thinking here that if they're posting the same properties over and over that the majority of properties aren't moving well.

Does the price come down to reflect this?---NO

so I guess this is a TIT thing!!!

In searching the listings daily I see more and even more of the same agent listings(even from 6 months ago)yet no drop in price.

In the old days agents would put in a single ad saying to contact them,now people named frank,gerwin,david,charles,erin,sara,more and more flood what used to be an interesting venue to look for classifieds and have ruined it by reposting overpriced condos repeatedly.How can you stop them?Many of these people post the exact same properties.I think if you look at this as an outsider you would think no-one is buying these expensive condos at those prices after all these months so why don't they drop prices?Well tit.

what's TIT?

[Crossy]

what's TIT?

Acronym for 'This is Thailand'.

[cclub75]

I've been observing 3 buildings from the balcony at Icon II Thonglor: Icon III, The Height, and Noble Ora, all in plain view... also i can see the Hamptons (I think that's what it's called, a bit further down the road). I comment almost everyday how empty these buildings are. The Height (the one really really close to the road on Thonglor has I swear 2 tenants... Icon III has a few but not all lights are on by any measure... and Noble Ora (while actually a good project IMO, only 50K/psm when I was first looking at units) seems to be pretty empty too... or else people really like the dark and never turn on their lights.

Welcome to the club Jcon. The club of people who have at least 2 neurons (inter connected), and who trust their common sense, not some PR articles published in newspapers.

Since 2 years, in the Ari area (Phayonotin soi 7), I make the same observation... I'm a smoker too, at night, and I've got a nice balcony. And I'm not alone.

And meanwhile, in 3 years, man... they did launch several new projects there (between Ari and Saphan Kwai BTS stations)... It's an epidemic ! A run ! A festival ! A fireworks.

And guess what ? They are all "sold out". Some of them very quickly (Noble Reflex in 1 day according to TC). And all those nice condos will remain... empty.

Healthy market indeed !

I'll tell you : I'm having a blast. So many suckers... It's unbelievable.

Edited April 22, 2009 by cclub75

[cclub75]

I'm definitely no expert.All I am is someone looking at craigslist,baht and sold,fair properties and Thai visa classifieds every single day for the last 6 months.Agents have taken over everything.Individual owners are maybe 5% or less.The same properties are listed over and over.Some agents post the same pictures for different advertised units repeatedly.(That makes sensen outsider you would think no-one is buying these expensive condos at those prices after all these months so why don't they drop prices?Well tit.

Forget Craiglist. As you said, it's a dump.

Try instead : Prakard.

There you have the real deal (all building, classified by area, and thousands of messages in forums).

http://www.prakard.com/default.aspx?g=forum&c=2

Edited April 22, 2009 by cclub75

[beejoir]

I would go 2nd hand, pre 1997 buildings which have a proven record of maintenance and good tenants.... then deck it out to high standard, and save yourself a bunch of money... quality has been sacrificed in a big way in ALL of the new units coming online, A grade or not... Athenee? Grade A my ass.

I've got a condo in a building finished in 1997, its in central Bangkok (Chidlom) and runs at a good profit to everythings clean and maintained to a high standard, I gutted the <deleted> decor, ripped the ceiling out, put in a 500,000 baht kitchen and solid wood floors with some nice furniture and dah dahh I got me a 100sqm 2 bed condo with 3 meter+ high ceilings fully fitted out in every way and it looks amazing......... for under 4.5 million.

Its the only way to go.

These new flashy condos look all nice with their gold knobs and slick receptions, but they are going to be running at quite a loss soon with a very low % sold and such high maintenance costs, I'm looking at the ones in Chidlom now and they must be under 10% occupied.

[trogers]

I would go 2nd hand, pre 1997 buildings which have a proven record of maintenance and good tenants.... then deck it out to high standard, and save yourself a bunch of money... quality has been sacrificed in a big way in ALL of the new units coming online, A grade or not... Athenee? Grade A my ass.

I've got a condo in a building finished in 1997, its in central Bangkok (Chidlom) and runs at a good profit to everythings clean and maintained to a high standard, I gutted the <deleted> decor, ripped the ceiling out, put in a 500,000 baht kitchen and solid wood floors with some nice furniture and dah dahh I got me a 100sqm 2 bed condo with 3 meter+ high ceilings fully fitted out in every way and it looks amazing......... for under 4.5 million.

Its the only way to go.

These new flashy condos look all nice with their gold knobs and slick receptions, but they are going to be running at quite a loss soon with a very low % sold and such high maintenance costs, I'm looking at the ones in Chidlom now and they must be under 10% occupied.

This is now the correct investment model in a falling rental market. Refurbished old condos in choice locations and secured at 50-60% of the price of the new ones can offer lower rents and minimize vacancy period. I would add, try engaging some cleaning lady for your tenants, and this will help to maintain the quality of your condo's interior.

[jcon]

I would agree with trogers and the other members' sentiments above, but I would add that it is a better investment model overall in terms of ROI vs. the new places.

Low-rises in good locations, with only a couple/few rooms per floor are much better value for money than any shiny new unit IMO. You get higher ceilings, and a lot more floor space (2 bedroom condos from the 'old school' are at the very least 100sqm, usually more like 150 sqm, whereas now developers call a 55sqm place with 2 shoebox bedrooms a "2br"). Just gut the place and deck it out to high spec and it will beat most new projects hands down. And fewer owners in Thailand is overall better for the building IMO - as opposed to 500+ unit structures with low occupancy and even lower % of owners paying maintenance. In the smaller older buildings, you can at least see with your own eyes how it has been maintained over the years, and there is A LOT less (if any) turnover - the owners own and keep, period... less transient tenants = better IMO.

I've also noticed better overall building quality in the better older condos... during the last boom there wasn't as much cost-cutting as compared to what is coming online now or in the near future...

edit: i also like to peruse the classifieds, and yeah that "Gerwin" guy has some pretty ridiculous ads! 300K/month for a 110sq wah house?

Edited April 22, 2009 by jcon

[pkrv]

what's TIT?

Acronym for 'This is Thailand'.

Correction TLA ];-) (Three Letter Acronym)

Edited April 22, 2009 by pkrv

[Scott123]

I would agree with trogers and the other members' sentiments above, but I would add that it is a better investment model overall in terms of ROI vs. the new places.

Low-rises in good locations, with only a couple/few rooms per floor are much better value for money than any shiny new unit IMO. You get higher ceilings, and a lot more floor space (2 bedroom condos from the 'old school' are at the very least 100sqm, usually more like 150 sqm, whereas now developers call a 55sqm place with 2 shoebox bedrooms a "2br"). Just gut the place and deck it out to high spec and it will beat most new projects hands down. And fewer owners in Thailand is overall better for the building IMO - as opposed to 500+ unit structures with low occupancy and even lower % of owners paying maintenance. In the smaller older buildings, you can at least see with your own eyes how it has been maintained over the years, and there is A LOT less (if any) turnover - the owners own and keep, period... less transient tenants = better IMO.

I've also noticed better overall building quality in the better older condos... during the last boom there wasn't as much cost-cutting as compared to what is coming online now or in the near future...

edit: i also like to peruse the classifieds, and yeah that "Gerwin" guy has some pretty ridiculous ads! 300K/month for a 110sq wah house?

Your post is all your subjective opinion. However,

-- Where is the proof that low rise, older building has higher occupancy rate, and a lot less turnover?

-- You buy a low rise, older unit and spend money to refurbish it, then rent it at a lower price than a new high rise unit. Your rate of return may be about the same as a new condo.

-- A shiny new unit in a new building is a big plus in Thailand and it gives you the pride of ownership. For renters, new high rise building gives them the pride of occupancy.

[midas]

I would agree with trogers and the other members' sentiments above, but I would add that it is a better investment model overall in terms of ROI vs. the new places.

Low-rises in good locations, with only a couple/few rooms per floor are much better value for money than any shiny new unit IMO. You get higher ceilings, and a lot more floor space (2 bedroom condos from the 'old school' are at the very least 100sqm, usually more like 150 sqm, whereas now developers call a 55sqm place with 2 shoebox bedrooms a "2br"). Just gut the place and deck it out to high spec and it will beat most new projects hands down. And fewer owners in Thailand is overall better for the building IMO - as opposed to 500+ unit structures with low occupancy and even lower % of owners paying maintenance. In the smaller older buildings, you can at least see with your own eyes how it has been maintained over the years, and there is A LOT less (if any) turnover - the owners own and keep, period... less transient tenants = better IMO.

I've also noticed better overall building quality in the better older condos... during the last boom there wasn't as much cost-cutting as compared to what is coming online now or in the near future...

edit: i also like to peruse the classifieds, and yeah that "Gerwin" guy has some pretty ridiculous ads! 300K/month for a 110sq wah house?

Your post is all your subjective opinion. However,

-- Where is the proof that low rise, older building has higher occupancy rate, and a lot less turnover?

-- You buy a low rise, older unit and spend money to refurbish it, then rent it at a lower price than a new high rise unit. Your rate of return may be about the same as a new condo.

-- A shiny new unit in a new building is a big plus in Thailand and it gives you the pride of ownership. For renters, new high rise building gives them the pride of occupancy.

And what happens sometime in the future some owners of new properties decide

they cannot afford to hold on any longer and are forced to drop their pants?

And why would you rent an uninteresting and older low rise condo if you could negotiate

a new one on a high floor with a view for the same price? If economic conditions remain

weak in Thailand, this kind of disparity in the market cannot last forever - but the

low rise condo owner has no room to move regarding price ?

[trogers]

I would agree with trogers and the other members' sentiments above, but I would add that it is a better investment model overall in terms of ROI vs. the new places.

Low-rises in good locations, with only a couple/few rooms per floor are much better value for money than any shiny new unit IMO. You get higher ceilings, and a lot more floor space (2 bedroom condos from the 'old school' are at the very least 100sqm, usually more like 150 sqm, whereas now developers call a 55sqm place with 2 shoebox bedrooms a "2br"). Just gut the place and deck it out to high spec and it will beat most new projects hands down. And fewer owners in Thailand is overall better for the building IMO - as opposed to 500+ unit structures with low occupancy and even lower % of owners paying maintenance. In the smaller older buildings, you can at least see with your own eyes how it has been maintained over the years, and there is A LOT less (if any) turnover - the owners own and keep, period... less transient tenants = better IMO.

I've also noticed better overall building quality in the better older condos... during the last boom there wasn't as much cost-cutting as compared to what is coming online now or in the near future...

edit: i also like to peruse the classifieds, and yeah that "Gerwin" guy has some pretty ridiculous ads! 300K/month for a 110sq wah house?

Your post is all your subjective opinion. However,

-- Where is the proof that low rise, older building has higher occupancy rate, and a lot less turnover?

-- You buy a low rise, older unit and spend money to refurbish it, then rent it at a lower price than a new high rise unit. Your rate of return may be about the same as a new condo.

-- A shiny new unit in a new building is a big plus in Thailand and it gives you the pride of ownership. For renters, new high rise building gives them the pride of occupancy.

Check out 2 condo developments near the intersection of Rama 4 and Sukhumvit (both are only 600m apart, with the newer project only 100m from BTS Prakhanong) - Sukhumvit Plus which is less than 2 years old and Waterford Rama 4 which is over 13 years old. Check ave rental rates and visit the developments to see occupancy levels.

Also check out Siri Residence and Premier Condominium (50m apart) in Sukhumvit Soi 24. Siri Residence is less than 2 years old while Premier is over 20 years old.

Edited April 23, 2009 by trogers

[Scott123]

I would agree with trogers and the other members' sentiments above, but I would add that it is a better investment model overall in terms of ROI vs. the new places.

Low-rises in good locations, with only a couple/few rooms per floor are much better value for money than any shiny new unit IMO. You get higher ceilings, and a lot more floor space (2 bedroom condos from the 'old school' are at the very least 100sqm, usually more like 150 sqm, whereas now developers call a 55sqm place with 2 shoebox bedrooms a "2br"). Just gut the place and deck it out to high spec and it will beat most new projects hands down. And fewer owners in Thailand is overall better for the building IMO - as opposed to 500+ unit structures with low occupancy and even lower % of owners paying maintenance. In the smaller older buildings, you can at least see with your own eyes how it has been maintained over the years, and there is A LOT less (if any) turnover - the owners own and keep, period... less transient tenants = better IMO.

I've also noticed better overall building quality in the better older condos... during the last boom there wasn't as much cost-cutting as compared to what is coming online now or in the near future...

edit: i also like to peruse the classifieds, and yeah that "Gerwin" guy has some pretty ridiculous ads! 300K/month for a 110sq wah house?

Your post is all your subjective opinion. However,

-- Where is the proof that low rise, older building has higher occupancy rate, and a lot less turnover?

-- You buy a low rise, older unit and spend money to refurbish it, then rent it at a lower price than a new high rise unit. Your rate of return may be about the same as a new condo.

-- A shiny new unit in a new building is a big plus in Thailand and it gives you the pride of ownership. For renters, new high rise building gives them the pride of occupancy.

Check out 2 condo developments near the intersection of Rama 4 and Sukhumvit (both are only 600m apart, with the newer project only 100m from BTS Prakhanong) - Sukhumvit Plus which is less than 2 years old and Waterford Rama 4 which is over 13 years old. Check ave rental rates and visit the developments to see occupancy levels.

Also check out Siri Residence and Premier Condominium (50m apart) in Sukhumvit Soi 24. Siri Residence is less than 2 years old while Premier is over 20 years old.

In my opinion, suppose older condos may have higher occupancy (and this is yet to be proven), it may simply because the building has such a long time to accumulate residents. Most Thai landloards do not raise rent price, so tenants living in these old buildings for years are paying very cheap rents.

Waterford units are quite well-known for cheaper price to buy or to rent. A 2bedroom unit only asks for rent of 18000 baht/month there. Check out the following ad from Prakard.com:

Nice Condo with Walking distance to BTS- Prakanong Station. Quite and Nice speculation. 72 sq.m, 7th floor. 2 bedrooms, 1 bathroom, 2 balconies ,1 living room and kitchen. Fully furnish with New flooring. 3 Air Conditioned, 2 Swimming pool, Fitness , 2 Parking slot, Tennis court and Sauna . Only 19,000 bath per month

Please Call Moun : 089-110887 or 089-1092299 Sonny

ให้เช่าคอนโดหรู Water Ford พื้นที่ 72 ตารางเมตร ถนนพระราม 4 ซอยภูมิจิตร เขตพระโขนง

ชั้น7 มี 2 ระเบียง บรรยากาศดี สงบ ความสะดวกสบายครบครัน ความปลอดภัยสูง มี รปภ. 24 ชม. 2 สระว่ายน้ำ, ฟิตเนสพร้อม เซาว์น่า, สนามเทนนิส , 2 ห้องนอน 1 ห้องน้ำ พร้อมแอร์ 3 ตัว จอดรถได้ 2 คัน ครัว เฟอร์นิเจอร์ครบครันและเพิ่งปูพื้น laminate ใหม่ อยู่ใกล้สถานีรถไฟฟ้า BTS พระโขนง ราคา 18,000.- บาท สนใจติดต่อ โทร.089-1100887 หม่อน or 089-1092299 เสก

Another Waterford 70sqm unit even asks for 15000baht/monht (see this ad)

I believe a new 2 bedroom 70 sqm unit in that area can get at least 35000baht/month.

You buy old condo, spend money to refurbish it, then rent out at low rent. Your return income ratio is just about the same as the new condos. It's fine if you are buying to live in it because it is a personal choice and affordability issue. But I would not live in that building myself, and I would not have the pride of ownership in that building.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Scott123

[trogers]

I would agree with trogers and the other members' sentiments above, but I would add that it is a better investment model overall in terms of ROI vs. the new places.

Low-rises in good locations, with only a couple/few rooms per floor are much better value for money than any shiny new unit IMO. You get higher ceilings, and a lot more floor space (2 bedroom condos from the 'old school' are at the very least 100sqm, usually more like 150 sqm, whereas now developers call a 55sqm place with 2 shoebox bedrooms a "2br"). Just gut the place and deck it out to high spec and it will beat most new projects hands down. And fewer owners in Thailand is overall better for the building IMO - as opposed to 500+ unit structures with low occupancy and even lower % of owners paying maintenance. In the smaller older buildings, you can at least see with your own eyes how it has been maintained over the years, and there is A LOT less (if any) turnover - the owners own and keep, period... less transient tenants = better IMO.

I've also noticed better overall building quality in the better older condos... during the last boom there wasn't as much cost-cutting as compared to what is coming online now or in the near future...

edit: i also like to peruse the classifieds, and yeah that "Gerwin" guy has some pretty ridiculous ads! 300K/month for a 110sq wah house?

Your post is all your subjective opinion. However,

-- Where is the proof that low rise, older building has higher occupancy rate, and a lot less turnover?

-- You buy a low rise, older unit and spend money to refurbish it, then rent it at a lower price than a new high rise unit. Your rate of return may be about the same as a new condo.

-- A shiny new unit in a new building is a big plus in Thailand and it gives you the pride of ownership. For renters, new high rise building gives them the pride of occupancy.

Check out 2 condo developments near the intersection of Rama 4 and Sukhumvit (both are only 600m apart, with the newer project only 100m from BTS Prakhanong) - Sukhumvit Plus which is less than 2 years old and Waterford Rama 4 which is over 13 years old. Check ave rental rates and visit the developments to see occupancy levels.

Also check out Siri Residence and Premier Condominium (50m apart) in Sukhumvit Soi 24. Siri Residence is less than 2 years old while Premier is over 20 years old.

In my opinion, suppose older condos may have higher occupancy (and this is yet to be proven), it may simply because the building has such a long time to accumulate residents. Most Thai landloards do not raise rent price, so tenants living in these old buildings for years are paying very cheap rents.

Waterford units are quite well-known for cheaper price to buy or to rent. A 2bedroom unit only asks for rent of 18000 baht/month there. Check out the following ad from Prakard.com:

Nice Condo with Walking distance to BTS- Prakanong Station. Quite and Nice speculation. 72 sq.m, 7th floor. 2 bedrooms, 1 bathroom, 2 balconies ,1 living room and kitchen. Fully furnish with New flooring. 3 Air Conditioned, 2 Swimming pool, Fitness , 2 Parking slot, Tennis court and Sauna . Only 19,000 bath per month

Please Call Moun : 089-110887 or 089-1092299 Sonny

ให้เช่าคอนโดหรู Water Ford พื้นที่ 72 ตารางเมตร ถนนพระราม 4 ซอยภูมิจิตร เขตพระโขนง

ชั้น7 มี 2 ระเบียง บรรยากาศดี สงบ ความสะดวกสบายครบครัน ความปลอดภัยสูง มี รปภ. 24 ชม. 2 สระว่ายน้ำ, ฟิตเนสพร้อม เซาว์น่า, สนามเทนนิส , 2 ห้องนอน 1 ห้องน้ำ พร้อมแอร์ 3 ตัว จอดรถได้ 2 คัน ครัว เฟอร์นิเจอร์ครบครันและเพิ่งปูพื้น laminate ใหม่ อยู่ใกล้สถานีรถไฟฟ้า BTS พระโขนง ราคา 18,000.- บาท สนใจติดต่อ โทร.089-1100887 หม่อน or 089-1092299 เสก

Another 70sqm unit even asks for 15000baht/monht (see this ad)

I believe a new 2 bedroom 70 sqm unit in that area can get at least 35000baht/month.

You buy old condo, spend money to refurbish it, then rent out at low rent. Your return income is just about the same as the new condos. It's fine if you are buying to live in it because it is a personal choice and affordability issue. But I would not live in that building myself, and I would not have the pride of ownership in that building.

The asking rent for a 2-bedroom at Sukhumvit Plus ranges from Bt35,000-40,000. Problem is, this is not the rent that owners can easily get tenants during this period of downturn, thus, the unit cannot get at least this amount of rent.

I bought my 2-bedroom at Waterford for Bt2.45m in Sep 2008 and renovating the unit in Oct. My tenant came to see the unit mid-Oct during renovation and place his booking. He moved in end of Oct, paying Bt20,000/month.

My 2-bedroom unit in Premier was renovated and placed in advertisement in the last week of Feb 2009. The unit was booked 3 weeks later and tenant moved in end of Mar. Rent is at Bt45,000 compared with the asking rent of Siri at Bt65.000-70,000.

What this means is that new condo units cannot bring down rents sufficiently in a falling rental market, and thus face higher vacancies. The correct investment model is now acquiring old condo units, refurbish them, and rent them out easily with 6-8% return.

[midas]

What this means is that new condo units cannot bring down rents sufficiently in a falling rental market, and thus face higher vacancies. The correct investment model is now acquiring old condo units, refurbish them, and rent them out easily with 6-8% return.

When you say " new condo units cannot bring down rents sufficiently in a

falling rental market, and thus face higher vacancies." -how do you know things will not go on

being bad in Thailand this time ( accentuated even further by the political strife )

for so long that for the first time we will witness people taking anything they

can get for their vacant properties ? How can you be so sure they cannot bring rents down sufficiently?

Edited April 23, 2009 by midas

[trogers]

What this means is that new condo units cannot bring down rents sufficiently in a falling rental market, and thus face higher vacancies. The correct investment model is now acquiring old condo units, refurbish them, and rent them out easily with 6-8% return.

When you say " new condo units cannot bring down rents sufficiently in a

falling rental market, and thus face higher vacancies." -how do you know things will not go on

being bad in Thailand this time ( accentuated even further by the political strife )

for so long that for the first time we will witness people taking anything they

can get for their vacant properties ? How can you be so sure they cannot bring rents down sufficiently?

I surveyed the rental market since mid of last year. Rents of new condo units along Sukhumvit 24 fell by 15-20% between rental contracts made last year and the asking rents of the first quarter of this year - from Bt80,000 to about Bt65-70,000.

Asking rent may fall further, but many units will have lost their previous tenants to the older condo units in the same location, and have to fight for new tenants. Thus, vacancy of the old condo units will not be high, while occupancy of the new ones will be uncertain.

[Scott123]

I bought my 2-bedroom at Waterford for Bt2.45m in Sep 2008 and renovating the unit in Oct. My tenant came to see the unit mid-Oct during renovation and place his booking. He moved in end of Oct, paying Bt20,000/month.

My 2-bedroom unit in Premier was renovated and placed in advertisement in the last week of Feb 2009. The unit was booked 3 weeks later and tenant moved in end of Mar. Rent is at Bt45,000 compared with the asking rent of Siri at Bt65.000-70,000.

How much did you spend to refurbish your Waterford? a 70sqm unit can easily cost 700K baht to refurbish, so your cost based is Bt3.2m or higher, not Bt2.45m. Your return ratio is around 7% per year, which is just normal.

I surveyed the rental market since mid of last year. Rents of new condo units along Sukhumvit 24 fell by 15-20% between rental contracts made last year and the asking rents of the first quarter of this year - from Bt80,000 to about Bt65-70,000.

Asking rent may fall further, but many units will have lost their previous tenants to the older condo units in the same location, and have to fight for new tenants. Thus, vacancy of the old condo units will not be high, while occupancy of the new ones will be uncertain.

Please give us more details about the methodology of your survey. How many landloards or tenants responded to your survey, and what questions were on your survey. I don't believe an unbiased survey ever exists in Thailand. People don't even tell the Land Office their real purchasing price. How many landlord would respond to your survey and tell the truth? Also keep in mind that Thais do not like to loose face.

As for you saying newer condos loose tenants to older condos in the same location etc. This is only your subjective theory. I have two friends who moved from a 2 bedroom in soi Ruim Rudee to a comparable quality 2 bedroom in Rachada and they saved at least Bt18000 per month. They didn't moved to an old lower rise in Ruim Rudee.

And again, all properties that you discussed are for rental income purpose. Your theory may not apply to the buyers who want to buy and live in the condo. Personally I just won't have the pride of ownership when buying and living in an older low rise building. But that's only me.

[jcon]

Funny conversation I just had tonight, reminded me of this thread... I have a friend who just told me she was going to buy a unit at Le Raffine Sukhumvit 39, and I went ballistic on her, spewing out NO NO NO NO, in 10 years the pools will all leak and fall down all over each other blah blah blah.... She had mentioned it in passing that she wanted to buy a condo in the city, but I had no idea that she was this serious (she already had a room picked out, etc....).... But she is decidedly Thai (well Half-Thai, but Thai in her way of thinking) and she was saying she just thought it was nice, blah blah blah...

40 million was the price they gave her, and I went bonkers (yes, I just said bonkers), saying christ save that money, invest it somewhere else and you may have 100 million in 5-10 years instead of a broken down POS condo that cannot be sold... Same friend I convince not to buy a new Lexus RX because her old one is just fine... I've been trying to instill the 'save your money, cash is king' idea in her, and I think it's slowly sinking in... She's one of those people who can make a ton of money but has no idea how to manage it, which is the terrible thing about the industry in which she works - I've seen people rise so so high, only to fall off a cliff due to poor money management (a la MC Hammer - what did he have, 20 million USD???? - now broke).

Then I went on to describe the same thing that I've been noticing, empty units all around, and told her 'hey, listen - instead of going into the sales office and having everybody kiss your ass, go look at the place at 7pm, 8pm, midnight, 8am, noon, whatever, and see how many 'sold out' units are occupied, and who is living there... Due diligence can be such a foreign concept to certain people.... but I'm glad I got a hold of her before she went off and blew her money on that condo... I swear there aren't engineers good enough in Thailand to build such a structure without disastrous consequences say 10-20 years down the road.... water is HEAVY!!!!!

I showed her this thread, and of course she couldn't be bothered, but I think my point stuck with her - at least I hope so. 40 million is no joke, and if invested wisely, can take her a long way in this life if she doesn't dump it into some condo....

So I suppose one lesson is that there ARE some buyers. But dam_n maybe they just have too much money on their hands.

I tried to explain to her the 2nd hand condo theory, but I'm not sure it's sticking just yet...

To address the poster who said my points are subjective - yes, they may certainly be, but I've seen A LOT of condos, high-end, decked out, and the wealthiest Thais I know don't buy into the shiny projects... and re: the occupancy of the 2nd hand lowrises, though I can't make a generalization that they have higher occupancy rates than the new 500+ unit giants, I have seen first hand that many of the ones that my friends live in are FULL. So it's a small sample size, but first-hand information nevertheless, which counts in my book.

I can't comment on the "pride of ownership" or the even more hilarious notion of "pride of occupancy," but I'd favor the notion of the "pride of not being a sucker."