Gays To Be Slaughtered By The Iraqi State

[Ijustwannateach]

The Story

[Jingthing]

Another "unintended" consequence of the disaster that was George W. Bush.

Yes, he is now out of office, but the Bush bashing lives on ...

[mc2]

iraq people are generally a bloodthirsty lot, brutal and violent punishment for very minor crimes (in this case it shouldnt even be a crime)

its how they have been brought up and its what they expect from authority.

[Jingthing]

Whatever, but it was better for gays under Saddam. The crazy forces of radical Islam were under control under Saddam who was much more of a SECULAR leader.

[onni4me]

And more on the subject on CNN...I feel so sad when reading this kind of news.

Rami and Kamal, both gay Iraqis, say they rarely show affection for men in public.

var CNN_ArticleChanger = new CNN_imageChanger('cnnImgChngr','/2008/WORLD/meast/07/24/gay.iraqis/imgChng/p0-0.init.exclude.html',1,0); //CNN.imageChanger.load('cnnImgChngr','imgChng/p1-0.exclude.html'); BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Kamal was just 16 when gunmen snatched him off the streets of Baghdad, stuffed him in the trunk of a car and whisked him away to a house. But the real terror was about to begin.

The men realized he was gay, Kamal said, when he took his shirt off and they saw that his chest was shaved.

"They told me to take off my clothes to rape me or they would kill me immediately. This moment was the worst moment in my life," he said, weeping as he spoke of the 2005 ordeal.

"I was watching them taking off their clothes, preparing to rape me. I did not know what to do, so I started shouting loudly, 'Please do not do that! I will ask my family to give you whatever you want.' " Watch the tormented life of gays in Iraq »

His pleas went unheeded. "The other two kidnappers took off my clothes by force, and, at that time, I saw them as three dirty animals trying to tear my body apart."

He was held for 15 days, released only after his family paid a $1,500 ransom. He was raped every day. Only once, he said, was he allowed to talk to his family during captivity. "I told my family that I was beaten by them, but I did not dare to tell my family that I was raped by them. I could not say it, it's too much shame."

CNN spoke with Kamal, now 18, and his 21-year-old friend Rami about what it's like to be gay in Iraq. Coming out as gay is not easy in any country, but to do so in Iraq could mean a death sentence or torture.

The two men rarely show feelings toward each other in public. They spend a lot of time in Internet cafes in Baghdad, surfing gay chat rooms and seeking contacts with other gay men in Iraq and elsewhere.

Since the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003, the situation for gays and lesbians in Iraq has deteriorated. Ridiculed under Hussein, many now find themselves the targets of violence, according to humanitarian officials.

Lesbians are also victims of harassment and violence, but not nearly as often as gay men. It's unknown how many homosexuals have been killed by militias in the lawless streets of Iraq's cities, but some Web sites post pictures of Iraqis they say were killed for being gay.

One photo on the Iraqi Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender site shows a group of men standing around three male bodies sprawled on a street, blood pouring from their heads. "Gay Iraqi victims of the police and death squads," the site says.

A U.N. report on human rights in Iraq reinforces the accusations of violence. Although gays are supposed to be protected by law in Iraq, it says, they face extreme brutality.

"Armed Islamic groups and militias have been known to be particularly hostile toward homosexuals, frequently and openly engaging in violent campaigns against them," the report said, adding that homosexuals have been murdered.

"Militias are reportedly threatening families of men believed to be homosexual, stating that they will begin killing family members unless the men are handed over or killed by the family," it said.

The report was issued at the end of 2006 and is the last U.N. study to touch on the subject. Human rights experts say homosexuals are targeted for cultural reasons as well.

"Gay men and lesbians in Iraq face a lot of risks right now, because homosexuality is sometimes interpreted by people in Iraq as being a Western import," said Scott Portman with the Heartland Alliance, a group that promotes human rights worldwide. "So they can sometimes be targeted by insurgent groups or militias, in part, because of animosity toward the West and, in part, because homosexuality is not well-accepted in Iraqi society."

He added, "the biggest threats right now are from militia organizations, who will attack and actually sometimes kill gay men and women."

Kamal and Rami say the dangers are all too real in Baghdad -- and they live in secrecy not to shame their families. "I would rather commit suicide than allow my family to find out I am gay," Rami said.

Kamal said he often pretends to have girlfriends in social settings and tells his friends he's dating girls. "I am also careful with the way I dress -- not to show them that I am gay, especially my family."

What would his family do if they found out?

"They will force me to give it up, and I cannot do that," he said. "The 'normal' people cannot live in Iraq. Imagine how the life is for gays." Rami added, "I do not know why people hate gays even though so many have this tendency. But still they hate it."

Homosexuality is a touchy subject for many Iraqis. When CNN asked Iraqis in Baghdad how they felt about homosexuals, we found intolerance to be widespread.

One man said he considers gays no different from "criminals and terrorists." Another claimed that homosexuality was "illegal under Islamic law, and [gays] should be punished by law like criminals."

Rami said he once fell in love with a man who was part of the Mehdi Army, a Shiite insurgent group loyal to the radical anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. Their relationship eventually soured.

"One day he told me he would come over to my house and kill me in front of my family," Rami said. "I told him I would come outside and be killed in the street because I do not want my family to find out I am gay."

Both men hope to escape Iraq. They say their ideal destination would be San Francisco, California. For now, both of them keep their feelings secret.

Kamal is still tormented by what happened to him nearly three years ago. "During my sleep, I only see nightmares, and I start crying. My family thought it was because they were beating me."

[ernest1966]

Hi.

I am going to post an answer as I saw something I really do find offensive here.

First an intro about myself as I am posting in a sub-forum that I am merely a guest. I am arab, Iraqui, hetrosexual and left Iraq when I was 3 years old.

iraq people are generally a bloodthirsty lot, brutal and violent punishment for very minor crimes (in this case it shouldnt even be a crime)

For the record, on the behest of the USA Iraq fought a war with Iran, then had its infrastructure destroyed twice for by the USA.

The Iraqis I know who have live in london and have not been through what the people of Iraq have (and still are going through) are neither homophobic or raving loonies who want to go and kill people.

Thanks to various countries Iraq has been totally destroyed and now is in control of elements that would be better locked within a madhouse.

You sow what you reap. You put people through that sort of god awful inhumanity then they become inhuman.

Back to mc2 comments. It's funny I expected better.

Ernest

[onni4me]

I am going to post an answer as I saw something I really do find offensive here.

First an intro about myself as I am posting in a sub-forum that I am merely a guest. I am arab, Iraqui, hetrosexual and left Iraq when I was 3 years old.

Lucky you. Maybe your view would be different if you were still living in Iraq and you'd be homosexual.

And what comes to the actions of USA, I feel that I am totally innocent. I am not a US citizen or never have been. I agree that part of the post you refer to is quite over the top but the fact remains that Iraq is very unfriendly to gay people, maybe even life threatening.

Words don't kill people, people kill people.

[ernest1966]

And London isn't? Saudi? I am not saying two wrongs make a right, I am saying that what was written by mc2 was racist and frankly disgusting. Its that sort of behaviour that spreads hate, that's why I said "It's funny I expected better"

Ernest

[mc2]

Hi.

I am going to post an answer as I saw something I really do find offensive here.

First an intro about myself as I am posting in a sub-forum that I am merely a guest. I am arab, Iraqui, hetrosexual and left Iraq when I was 3 years old.

iraq people are generally a bloodthirsty lot, brutal and violent punishment for very minor crimes (in this case it shouldnt even be a crime)

For the record, on the behest of the USA Iraq fought a war with Iran, then had its infrastructure destroyed twice for by the USA.

The Iraqis I know who have live in london and have not been through what the people of Iraq have (and still are going through) are neither homophobic or raving loonies who want to go and kill people.

Thanks to various countries Iraq has been totally destroyed and now is in control of elements that would be better locked within a madhouse.

You sow what you reap. You put people through that sort of god awful inhumanity then they become inhuman.

Back to mc2 comments. It's funny I expected better.

Ernest

I agree in some way USA is responsible, and also due to the upbringing , dictatorial , brutal, ruthless style of saddam. which people respect (out of fear).

I lived with an Iraq woman (born and grew up 30 years in iraq) for 3 months and talked to her extensively , was suprised to find she was a strong supporter of saddam. she also supported the brutal and violent punishments for minor crimes as it "kept crime down". "this is the iraq style" she says.

[neverdie]

SHOCKING STUFF. Its like something out of the dark ages. The human race never ceases to amaze me

[Scott]

It's very sad, but it is far from shocking. I lived in Iraq for a number of years and it was not very tolerant of gays. Iran, however, was much worse. It's not an area of the world where you would chose to gay, that's for sure. The funny thing is, there is quite a lot of homosexual activity that goes on there.

[Scott]

I was listening to the news on the radio (I think it was BBC) tonight (Sunday). They said that a couple of bodies were found in Sadr City--they were gays and they had a note that referred to them as perverts. It seems this is being fostered by the Shia religious leaders.

[patklang]

The Story

Now thats a bit out of oder.

should be bi-sexual they are the ones that can kill me.

[ernest1966]

Lets try and seperate two things here. The laws of Islam and the country of Iraq.

Follow this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality...uslim_countries

And now thanks to Irans influence on the country things will only get worse, for everyone.

Ernest

[onni4me]

Seems to be so many terrible news about Iraq...and some dare to say that speaking might hurt feelings. Aargh!

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-4861.html

Two gay Iraqi men have survived kidnapping and beating by the violently homophobic Mahdi Army. The army is loyal to firebrand fundamentalist Shia cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr, who is fighting to establish an Islamist dictatorship in Iraq. Two months after their ordeal, traumatised Ahmed, 23, and Zaid, 24, both students in Baghdad University, have come forward to tell how they were lured into a trap by members of the Mahdi Army.

The Madhi Army has been involved in the torture and execution of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender Iraqis and many other Iraqis, especially women, who do not conform to its harsh interpretation of Islam. Ahmed's and Zaid's story reveals how Muqtada al-Sadr's men have adopted a new tactic, borrowed from the Iranian secret police. They are posing as gays in online chat rooms, in order to lure gay men, arrange dates and kill them.

Ahmed and Zaid told their story to Dina H, a 30 year-old Iraqi lesbian who is the co-coordinator of the Iraqi gay human rights group, Iraqi LGBT, in the southern region, south of Baghdad.

"Ahmed and Zaid had gone online in early May and entered a gay chatroom, where they arranged to meet two men who had asked them for a date," said Peter Tatchell of LGBTI human rights organisation OutRage!

Mr Tatchell and OutRage! work closely with Iraqi LGBT, supporting its life-saving humanitarian work. He retells the two men's story, based on information recently received from Dina H inside Iraq.

"On May 17, Ahmed and Zaid showed up for their date," said Mr Tatchell.

"Their dates were very good looking men with a brand new car. After chatting for a while, Ahmed and Zaid agreed to go with them in their car. They headed towards the Al-Karada district of Baghdad.

"When they got there, the mood changed suddenly. Their dates revealed themselves to be members of the Mahdi Army. They locked the car doors, took out guns and began beating Ahmed and Zaid.

"The Mahdi men interrogated them, demanding to know the names and phone numbers of other gay men.

"They went through the names of everyone listed in their mobile phones and wallets.

"Ahmed and Zaid were bashed badly and stripped of their clothes, leaving them with only their underwear.

"They were then blindfolded, handcuffed with strips of wire, forced into the boot of the car and driven away," said Mr Tatchell.

According to Dina H's account, based on what she was told by the two men:

"Ahmed and Zaid thought they were going to a place where they would be shot and left for dead, like has happened to so many other gay Iraqis during the last four years," reports Dina H.

"The car stopped in a deserted area. The Mahdi men opened the car trunk and told Ahmed and Zaid to kneel on the ground and say their prayers.

"Ahmed and Zaid prayed and waited, expecting to be executed. But suddenly, for a reason unknown, the two Mahdi militia men got in their car and drove away.

"A little later, the driver of a passing car stopped to help them. He removed the wires from Ahmed's and Zaid's wrists and took the blindfold from their eyes.

"The driver then helped them hail a taxi which took them home.

"Having survived this near-execution, Ahmed and Zaid have promised themselves that there will be no more chatting with strangers on the internet, and that they will hide their sexuality.

"Few people seem to care about the fate of Iraqi gays and lesbians," said Dina H.

"Without the continuing help of Iraqi LGBT, we would have been killed a long time ago.

"We are grateful for the latest financial help from Human Rights Watch and from the many other individual donors. It will keep us going for another month or so," said Dina H.

"Normally, gay kidnap victims are always killed," adds Ali Hili, a gay Iraqi refugee, who coordinates Iraqi LGBT from London.

"Ahmed and Zaid do not know why they were not shot. They are pleasant, kind young men. Perhaps their kidnappers took pity on them.

"Zaid and Ahmed realise they are very lucky to escape alive. They have learned that being gay in Iraq is impossible. It is too dangerous.

"Dina is running a safe house, hiding eight gays and lesbians who have fled death threats and attempted honour killings by their families.

"She has helped many gay Iraqis over the last four years. We all think she is incredibly brave.

"Iraqi LGBT has been trying hard to raise international awareness and highlight the suffering of lesbian and gay people in Iraq. It has been very difficult.

"We often feel let down by the gay community in the west. We need help to protect our friends and save their lives.

"In these hard times for gay Iraqis, the whole LGBT community worldwide should stand up for the rights of Iraqi LGBTs.

"Iraq is one of the most homophobic and dangerous places on the face of the earth. It is a deadly place for anyone who is found out to be homosexual or who is even suspected of being one," said Mr Hili. Iraqi LGBT is making an appeal for donations to fund its work.

"Iraqi LGBT needs donations to help gay people in Iraq who are fleeing the death squads of the Mahdi Army and the Badr Brigades," appealed Mr Hili.

"We need money for safe houses, food, electricity, security protection and clothing - and to help pay the phone bills of members of the Iraqi LGBT group.

"They are sending us information about the homophobic killings, at great risk to their own lives.

"Many of the people we are helping had nothing but the clothes on their backs, when they fled attacks by fundamentalist militias and Iraqi police.

"The police have been infiltrated by Shia extremists. They are using the cover the of the police to kill gays and lesbians.

"We are also paying for medication for members who are HIV positive. Otherwise, they will not get treatment.

"If it is discovered that they have HIV, they will surely be killed," said Mr Hili.

Gay human rights group OutRage! is working with Iraqi LGBT to support its work.

Iraqi LGBT is coordinated by Ali Hili from the safety of London. The group does not yet have a bank account. Operating an Iraqi LGBT bank account in Baghdad would be suicide. For this reason, it has to operate its finances from London.All the group's members in London are Iraqi refugees seeking asylum. Their lack of proper legal status makes it difficult for them to open a bank account in the UK.

This is why Iraqi LGBT is asking that cheques be made payable to "OutRage!", with a cover note marked "For Iraqi LGBT", and sent to OutRage!, PO Box 17816, London SW14 8WT, England, UK.OutRage! then forwards the donations received to Ali Hili and Iraqi LGBT for wire transfer to activists in Baghdad.

[eldar1]

I'm continually amazed that in 2009 there are still people that have a problem with LGBT's. Hasn't 30 years of evidence that there is nothing wrong with it and that LGBT's do not cause the decay or society/end of the world convinced people to give up the hate? I feel great sympathy for the LGBT group in iraq, i hope someday soon their countrymen will accept them for who they are and just get on with life.

[aeon]

I'm continually amazed that in 2009 there are still people that have a problem with LGBT's. Hasn't 30 years of evidence that there is nothing wrong with it and that LGBT's do not cause the decay or society/end of the world convinced people to give up the hate? I feel great sympathy for the LGBT group in iraq, i hope someday soon their countrymen will accept them for who they are and just get on with life.

is very sad, not for gays but for human kind

[qualtrough]

Hi.

I am going to post an answer as I saw something I really do find offensive here.

First an intro about myself as I am posting in a sub-forum that I am merely a guest. I am arab, Iraqui, hetrosexual and left Iraq when I was 3 years old.

iraq people are generally a bloodthirsty lot, brutal and violent punishment for very minor crimes (in this case it shouldnt even be a crime)

For the record, on the behest of the USA Iraq fought a war with Iran, then had its infrastructure destroyed twice for by the USA.

The Iraqis I know who have live in london and have not been through what the people of Iraq have (and still are going through) are neither homophobic or raving loonies who want to go and kill people.

Thanks to various countries Iraq has been totally destroyed and now is in control of elements that would be better locked within a madhouse.

You sow what you reap. You put people through that sort of god awful inhumanity then they become inhuman.

Back to mc2 comments. It's funny I expected better.

Ernest

For what it is worth, and sadly very little, but as an American I would like to offer the sincerest apologies for the horror my government and people have visited on your country over the years.

[BigSnake]

Sad but common in that part of the world.

[ernest1966]

Please anyone reading the following message do not take this the wrong way.

I posted several messages in this thread because I saw something I felt I needed to reply to. I am a "guest" on this sub-forum.

I am neither gay nor available

So, could anyone reading this thread not post me PM's of interest.

I appreciate the compliment, but am not interested.

Ernest

[geriatrickid]

It is cowardly to blame the USA or any other country for the homophobic activities that occur in Iraq. This type of persecution went on long before the Iraq war. The difference is that the west did not know about it. Homosexuality is forbidden in the muslim world. Secular or not, it is deemed to be an aberrant evil activity. Gays are persecuted with regularity in allegedly secular parts of PLA controlled areas so much so that they flee to Israel. It occurs in Jordan, Dubai and Syria too. What I find odd is that hundreds of thousands will take to the streets in the west to protest Israel's alleged infringement of human rights, yet not one westerner takes to the streets to protest human rights infringements in the arab middle east.

Just once, I would like someone like one of the UK unions advocating for an academic boycott of Israel (putting several healthcare projects in Thailand in jepoardy) or for George Galloway to just once tell his buddies in Hamas that the murders of gay men in Gaza is not acceptable. Won't happen though. Yes, indeed as one poster has stated, you reap what you sow.

[TPI]

I'm continually amazed that in 2009 there are still people that have a problem with LGBT's. Hasn't 30 years of evidence that there is nothing wrong with it and that LGBT's do not cause the decay or society/end of the world convinced people to give up the hate? I feel great sympathy for the LGBT group in iraq, i hope someday soon their countrymen will accept them for who they are and just get on with life.

is very sad, not for gays but for human kind

The people...the religion...the people...the religion...Just who do you blame for for their intolerance??

The religion I think (IMVHO)

[ernest1966]

Erm, that IS what I posted (reap what you sow).

You have both agreed and disagreed with my post.

I was not being cowardly by blaming the USA for murders of gays in Iraq. I was stating the fact that iraqui's had become dehumanised and that in general (a later post) (where muslim law presides or a majoriity of the populance is muslim) there is very little tolerance for homosexuality.

[Ijustwannateach]

More news related to this topic.

[Anyse]

I hate to have to say this, but my experience in this arena has taught me more than I really care to know about this.

Some ask if this kind of hate and treatment is due to Islamic law, law, or people or what.

I can only say it is really an "individual" determination more determined by one's internal "humanity" than by "external" forces. I am sure that there are some who read any law or can view human behavior and actions and simply "know" that one action is certainly more "right" and "humane" as opposed to another action that is "wrong" and "inhumane." I see this in my daily life as a transgendered person. Some just say "so what" while others would more likely want to "kill" someone of this ilk rather than having to deal with whatever "perceived" threat or perversion that this presents to them. In the US last year, 186 transgendered people were killed. The number of "just" assaults is, I am sure also rather high by at least a hundredfold! This is in "America," the "Land of the Free"! People are just people, no matter where, secular or religious, conservative or liberal, honest and dishonest, brave and fearing and so on.

Over the length of recorded history, atrocities abound, even to this day! Does this "justify" any inhumane act toward any person, animal or eco-culture? No. There is never any excuse; at least to a person who is humane by nature. This dichotomy must be seen, discussed and addressed throughout every person's life through education, example and, ultimately, practice. Once this is done everywhere, then, hopefully, such inhumanity will cease. However, unfortunately, history is full of those who are above others as well as those who comprise any such group considered "below" any other group in society. While this kind of prejudice was exemplified so clearly in Hitler's Germany, even any such act today (no matter how "small") should be viewed, each and every time, as equally evil, vile and terrifying and people committing such acts should then face the consequences for every such action within every society so as to squelch such behavior altogether.

Also, what has informed me so well about this has been my own family as well as soon-to-be ex-wife (who has used my transgender status against me in a divorce action even after supporting me for 6 years BEFORE we went together for me to have the surgery in Thailand and then remained with me for 6.5 years after that!). People are people. Some you try to keep in your life and others you have to just let go.

Anyse

[BygonKeaw]

Whatever, but it was better for gays under Saddam. The crazy forces of radical Islam were under control under Saddam who was much more of a SECULAR leader.

what the hel_l r u talking about u bloody lunatic?

from every post i read of yours u seem to think you know everything when infact its quiet embarrasing reading your nonsense.

wake up mate.

[Jingthing]

Like I said, Saddam Hussein was NOT a fundamentalist Islamist and the darker aspects of fundamentalist Islam were kept in check under his rule, so logically things were better for gays in Iraq under Saddam Hussein than now where the crazy fundamentalists have taken power. I am not saying W Bush attacked Iraq to kill Iraqi gays, but one of the negative consequences of Bush's mistake was the current situation of gays in Iraq. BTW, keep on topic, personal attacks are not cool here. Thanks, my gay mate!

Oh, another point, WOMEN's rights were also much better under, you guessed it, Saddam Hussein.

From The NEW YORK TIMES

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/18/world/mi...agewanted=print

Homosexuality seemed accepted, as long as it was practiced in private. And even when it was not tolerated, prison time could be evaded with a well-placed bribe.

The American invasion was expected to usher in better times.

“We thought that with the presence of Americans, life would become paradise, that Iraq would be Westernized,” Mohammed said. “But unfortunately the way things were before was so much better than where we are now.”

Iraqi Gays: Things Were Better Under Saddam Hussein

Under Saddam Hussein, gay life in Iraq existed relatively peacefully in a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" sort of vein. Since the US invasion and the rise of sharia law, gays have been routinely rounded up, raped and murdered. Most gay men in Iraq now live hidden and terrified. Iraqi officials generally refuse to even discuss the situation and those that do say that gays are getting what's coming to them.

http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2008/08/iraqi...tter-under.html

BTW, waiting for your rebuttal or retraction, cat got your tongue?