Air Berlin

[earlofwindermere]

For the past month or so, Air Berlin has been advertising in the Chiang Mai Mail. I took a look at their website today and noticed that they seem to be advertising flights from Germany to Chiang Mai. Has anyone flown this airline before or know if they really do fly to CNX?

[Steve2UK]

2nd largest German airline (after Lufthansa) - established 30 years. I've flown with them years ago London-Berlin, but they've expanded enormously since then.

Nothing in their current timetable for flights to/from CNX - only BKK-Berlin/Munich/Duesseldorf - but it might be added later (next "high" season?). Given the runway limitations at CNX, I doubt Europe-bound flights could use it direct. If the Germany-CNX link does happen, might well be a feed from their BKK flights? Shame if that's all it is..........

[john b good]

2nd largest German airline (after Lufthansa) - established 30 years. I've flown with them years ago London-Berlin, but they've expanded enormously since then.

Nothing in their current timetable for flights to/from CNX - only BKK-Berlin/Munich/Duesseldorf - but it might be added later (next "high" season?). Given the runway limitations at CNX, I doubt Europe-bound flights could use it direct. If the Germany-CNX link does happen, might well be a feed from their BKK flights? Shame if that's all it is..........

What are the runway limitations at CNX??

They have been flying 747's into CNX for many years.

[briley]

CNX's runway is big enough for a fully loaded fully fuelled 747 to take off and land - so no problems with European flights.

Remember the end of November, many flights used CNX.

[uptheos]

I looked at the Air Berlin website a couple of weeks ago because they fly into Stansted (UK).

However, although their drop down menu states one of the departing destinations as Chiangmai - I could not get anything for CNX - Stansted, only Bangkok to Stansted, so I assume they do not use CNX as yet.

[ChiangMaiFun]

I looked at the Air Berlin website a couple of weeks ago because they fly into Stansted (UK).

However, although their drop down menu states one of the departing destinations as Chiangmai - I could not get anything for CNX - Stansted, only Bangkok to Stansted, so I assume they do not use CNX as yet.

This would be a miracle - Stanstead to CNX? please post IF this really happens! I'm back in UK late this month returning July and this would be great news... but I will restrain my enthusiasm until it 'actually' happens - has anybody asked them about the plans?

[iainiain101]

2nd largest German airline (after Lufthansa) - established 30 years. I've flown with them years ago London-Berlin, but they've expanded enormously since then.

Nothing in their current timetable for flights to/from CNX - only BKK-Berlin/Munich/Duesseldorf - but it might be added later (next "high" season?). Given the runway limitations at CNX, I doubt Europe-bound flights could use it direct. If the Germany-CNX link does happen, might well be a feed from their BKK flights? Shame if that's all it is..........

Didnt they land an Airbus A380 at Chiang Mai in 2007??

[tigerbeer]

2nd largest German airline (after Lufthansa) - established 30 years. I've flown with them years ago London-Berlin, but they've expanded enormously since then.

Nothing in their current timetable for flights to/from CNX - only BKK-Berlin/Munich/Duesseldorf - but it might be added later (next "high" season?). Given the runway limitations at CNX, I doubt Europe-bound flights could use it direct. If the Germany-CNX link does happen, might well be a feed from their BKK flights? Shame if that's all it is..........

Didnt they land an Airbus A380 at Chiang Mai in 2007??

yeah but it was hardly loaded..

[briley]

Air Berlin will give you a booking CNX - Europe, but uses Thai for the CNX BKK leg.

Also their fares are not that good when I last looked.

[uptheos]

I looked at the Air Berlin website a couple of weeks ago because they fly into Stansted (UK).

However, although their drop down menu states one of the departing destinations as Chiangmai - I could not get anything for CNX - Stansted, only Bangkok to Stansted, so I assume they do not use CNX as yet.

This would be a miracle - Stanstead to CNX? please post IF this really happens! I'm back in UK late this month returning July and this would be great news... but I will restrain my enthusiasm until it 'actually' happens - has anybody asked them about the plans?

This would also be fantastic for me too as I go to Cambridge twice a year.

You can return with Air Asia from Stansted to KL - take the flight that arrives KL at 0500 and then you can connect with the Air Asia 8 something to CNX.

[ChiangMaiFun]

I looked at the Air Berlin website a couple of weeks ago because they fly into Stansted (UK).

However, although their drop down menu states one of the departing destinations as Chiangmai - I could not get anything for CNX - Stansted, only Bangkok to Stansted, so I assume they do not use CNX as yet.

This would be a miracle - Stanstead to CNX? please post IF this really happens! I'm back in UK late this month returning July and this would be great news... but I will restrain my enthusiasm until it 'actually' happens - has anybody asked them about the plans?

This would also be fantastic for me too as I go to Cambridge twice a year.

You can return with Air Asia from Stansted to KL - take the flight that arrives KL at 0500 and then you can connect with the Air Asia 8 something to CNX.

Yea I guess they are quoting via somewhere thought it would be too good to be true direct not really worth going via Kl might as well go via BKK

[Steve2UK]

CNX's runway is big enough for a fully loaded fully fuelled 747 to take off and land - so no problems with European flights.

Remember the end of November, many flights used CNX.

No intention to mislead and I freely admit to being no aviation expert, but I've seen this subject come up here more than once before and those who seemed to know their subject were saying that it wasn't viable (I admit I only remember the runway being mentioned but it could also be other factors involved for regular - as in normal circumstances - services to Europe).

If there is no technical/logistical reason for not doing it, it begs the question why there aren't (and AFAIK - haven't been) any such flights even on a non-daily basis in high season?

[john b good]

CNX's runway is big enough for a fully loaded fully fuelled 747 to take off and land - so no problems with European flights.

Remember the end of November, many flights used CNX.

No intention to mislead and I freely admit to being no aviation expert, but I've seen this subject come up here more than once before and those who seemed to know their subject were saying that it wasn't viable (I admit I only remember the runway being mentioned but it could also be other factors involved for regular - as in normal circumstances - services to Europe).

If there is no technical/logistical reason for not doing it, it begs the question why there aren't (and AFAIK - haven't been) any such flights even on a non-daily basis in high season?

There is a big difference between viable and not done because of runway limitations (which do not apply, at least insofar as aircraft as large as 747's are concerned as they currently make several flights a week into and out of Chiang Mai)

If referring to viable that would perhaps be closer to the mark

[Priceless]

CNX's runway is big enough for a fully loaded fully fuelled 747 to take off and land - so no problems with European flights.

Remember the end of November, many flights used CNX.

No intention to mislead and I freely admit to being no aviation expert, but I've seen this subject come up here more than once before and those who seemed to know their subject were saying that it wasn't viable (I admit I only remember the runway being mentioned but it could also be other factors involved for regular - as in normal circumstances - services to Europe).

If there is no technical/logistical reason for not doing it, it begs the question why there aren't (and AFAIK - haven't been) any such flights even on a non-daily basis in high season?

There is a big difference between viable and not done because of runway limitations (which do not apply, at least insofar as aircraft as large as 747's are concerned as they currently make several flights a week into and out of Chiang Mai)

If referring to viable that would perhaps be closer to the mark

As far as I can see from Boeing's performance charts ( http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/7474sec3.pdf ) it is possible for a 747-400, which is what THAI are flying, to take off from Chiang Mai. Well, we all know that, so what's the crunch? They can not take off at Maximum Take-Off Weight (MTOW), which means that to fly to Europe they would need to fly with some empty seats (or with less than full fuel tanks ). According to the charts, they would have to sacrifice about 45,000 lbs compared to the MTOW. In addition to that, Chiang Mai is normally considerably warmer than the Standard Atmosphere (which is only 15 degrees), which decreases the maximum thrust the engines can give.

To Bangkok or Phuket they can obviously fly with partly empty fuel tanks, which makes these airports easily reachable.

All the above is with the reservation that it's a looong time since I quit being a pilot and used these kinds of charts. To sum it up though, I think that in essence it is not possible to fly directly from CNX (with its 3,100 metre runway) to Europe, at least not with full payload and satisfactory fuel reserves.

/ Priceless

[briley]

Cathy Pacific and China air did it when Swampi was shut, that is fly CNX to Amsterdam with a full load and presumably fully fuelled. At least no report of any crash.

Runway required at MTOW for the 747-400 is 3018 metres according to my tables. CNX is 3100 metres.

[Priceless]

Cathy Pacific and China air did it when Swampi was shut, that is fly CNX to Amsterdam with a full load and presumably fully fuelled. At least no report of any crash.

Runway required at MTOW for the 747-400 is 3018 metres according to my tables. CNX is 3100 metres.

You may be right, as I said it's a long time since I was working as a pilot. On the other hand, Boeing's charts appear to say that 3,100 metres should be enough for a 747-400 at about 865,000 lbs TOW (MTOW is 875,000 lbs) at sea level and a temperature of 15 degrees Celsius. Since CNX is at ~1,000 ft above sea level and the temperature rarely comes down to 15 degrees, I doubt that they can take off at MTOW with proper safety margins. However, I don't know and am too lazy to find out how much fuel a 747-400 uses for CNX-AMS. It may be that the amount of fuel needed (including all safety margins) allows for take-off at below MTOW. Also, are you sure that they actually carried full payload?

/ Priceless

[briley]

As normal so many variables.

From memory most flights can through early morning - in end Nov so a temp of 15 C or below is possible. Just lookned, Dec 1 and 2 the overnight minimum was 11C.

But as a proof of concept!

[Steve2UK]

There's a part of me that loves this tech stuff; ordinary load element that I am, I'll try to remember some of it for when the subject comes up again.

What a great and diverse community we have that our members can call on such knowledge. Thanks, guys.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Also, are you sure that they actually carried full payload?

Um, Swampy was closed by the yellow mob at the time with no China Airlines (or any) flights going out for days.. YES they were absolutely full!