Utility Bills Intercepted By Landlord And Rates Increased

[loong]

I just checked my last bill - 201 units and 680 Baht paid direct to the Electricity company.

I still suspect that you may have a faulty meter, but who's going to complain when it comes down on the right side?

[Veazer]

I'd front up to him on it. At least he'd realise you are wise

to his actions. Don't let him take advantage here as God

knows what he will dream up to do next to make a quid.

But what exactly am i going to say? He flatly told me how much he is increasing the rates so i can't exactly let him know i've caught him in the act.

I found out a little more info from another neighbor. There are six adjacent houses owned by the landlord (which i knew), but the meters on each are his own. I thought the meter on my house was owned by the power company, it's not. He is billed from a single meter before the split, then calculates our bills based on his meters. So he's not directly intercepting a bill for my house alone because no such bill exists, only the bill for all houses combined. To add insult to injury, she suspects he gets a reduced rate because of his higher than normal usage. Don't quote me on that, i don't know how rates relate to usage in Thailand.

If in the contract, then you know before you sign. If not in, you should ask and know to ask !

....

Your girlfriend reading the contract indicates to me that it is in Thai and you cannot read Thai. That was and is your mistake.

Like i already said though, i had no idea to ask about rates because every time prior i was charged the actual rate.

As for the gf reading the contract, how is that my mistake? Realistically, should i have it professionally translated before signing? Learn thai script before signing? i'm not trying to be a smartass, but you're indicating that my mistake lies in the reading of the contract and the higher rates aren't mentioned there. I've been with the missus for years and she wouldn't care to have me second guess her ability to comprehend a short contract.

Thanks to everyone who has offered input on this btw, much appreciated.

On a completely different subject, does anyone know of any very high viscosity dielectric oils that can be injected into power meters?

[CelticBhoy]

You know the guy better than anyone here; difficult to say what would work.

An old favourite of mine was to ask them if they were over-charging to try and

bring in some extra dosh due to being a bit short. Then quickly offer to lend them

a few Baht to tide them over. Sometimes, and just sometimes, they feel like they

are losing that face nonsense and a better deal can be reached.

At least let him know that you are aware of a few people around that are enjoying

the government's cheap leccy and you wouldn't mind a wee bit of the deal.

If nothing works . . . . . . . . .then buy the magnets! Best of luck.

[loong]

To add insult to injury, she suspects he gets a reduced rate because of his higher than normal usage. Don't quote me on that, i don't know how rates relate to usage in Thailand.

I'm not sure about if somebody is getting commercial rates, it's possible the rate may be lower.

I don't know if your landlord would qualify for commercial rates, I would think unlikely.

On a domestic meter, rates start very low, but I've never been able to find out about the charging rates in Thailand. I do know that the more you use, the higher the charge per unit, so with electricity, you do not get a quantity discount. It is, in fact the other way round. If I use 200 units per month, my bill will be about 2.5 times a person who uses 100 units per month. I'm not sure what the ceiling is, but I think it is about 5 Baht a unit. Really low users pay about 2.5 Baht per unit. Don't take these figures as gospel, but they are in the ballpark.

If anybody actually knows how the charging system works, I would like to know.

[pkrv]

Very oddly you may have some key people on your side. I understand your problems but it is conceivable that both your Thai bank and your electricity supplier MAY be able to help.

It is possible to pay bills by direct debit (automatic payment) I know because this is how I do it (admittedly monitoring my account by internet from the UK is impossible, still working on that).

But if you can get a copy of the bill you should be able to take it to your bank and cordially advise them you are actually the payee and please could they debit you automatically for this bill.

Once you set such formal things in motion matters such as tax and undeclared income come up. Though I am not sure about the reaction of your landlord, in general if things go wrong it really, really pays to be pedantic and play by the rules. They are on your side, but you must play the game fair and square.

IMO In your case (from what you have said) you should be in pocket by the end of such an exercise.

<edit I should possibly add that our language contains the expression 'opening a can of worms', I don't know your situation, your call - end edit>

Edited April 9, 2009 by pkrv

[loong]

Very oddly you may have some key people on your side. I understand your problems but it is conceivable that both your Thai bank and your electricity supplier MAY be able to help.

It is possible to pay bills by direct debit (automatic payment) I know because this is how I do it (admittedly monitoring my account by internet from the UK is impossible, still working on that).

But if you can get a copy of the bill you should be able to take it to your bank and cordially advise them you are actually the payee and please could they debit you automatically for this bill.

Once you set such formal things in motion matters such as tax and undeclared income come up. Though I am not sure about the reaction of your landlord, in general if things go wrong it really, really pays to be pedantic and play by the rules. They are on your side, but you must play the game fair and square.

IMO In your case (from what you have said) you should be in pocket by the end of such an exercise.

<edit I should possibly add that our language contains the expression 'opening a can of worms', I don't know your situation, your call - end edit>

How can he get a copy of the bill? there isn't one for his address, he has already stated

I found out a little more info from another neighbor. There are six adjacent houses owned by the landlord (which i knew), but the meters on each are his own. I thought the meter on my house was owned by the power company, it's not. He is billed from a single meter before the split, then calculates our bills based on his meters. So he's not directly intercepting a bill for my house alone because no such bill exists, only the bill for all houses combined. To add insult to injury, she suspects he gets a reduced rate because of his higher than normal usage. Don't quote me on that, i don't know how rates relate to usage in Thailand.

[stevejones123]

Things can go bump in the night and he likely has a key to your apartment

Then change the lock. It's normally the first thing you do when you rent an apartment.

[pkrv]

Very oddly you may have some key people on your side. I understand your problems but it is conceivable that both your Thai bank and your electricity supplier MAY be able to help.

It is possible to pay bills by direct debit (automatic payment) I know because this is how I do it (admittedly monitoring my account by internet from the UK is impossible, still working on that).

But if you can get a copy of the bill you should be able to take it to your bank and cordially advise them you are actually the payee and please could they debit you automatically for this bill.

Once you set such formal things in motion matters such as tax and undeclared income come up. Though I am not sure about the reaction of your landlord, in general if things go wrong it really, really pays to be pedantic and play by the rules. They are on your side, but you must play the game fair and square.

IMO In your case (from what you have said) you should be in pocket by the end of such an exercise.

<edit I should possibly add that our language contains the expression 'opening a can of worms', I don't know your situation, your call - end edit>

How can he get a copy of the bill? there isn't one for his address, he has already stated

I found out a little more info from another neighbor. There are six adjacent houses owned by the landlord (which i knew), but the meters on each are his own. I thought the meter on my house was owned by the power company, it's not. He is billed from a single meter before the split, then calculates our bills based on his meters. So he's not directly intercepting a bill for my house alone because no such bill exists, only the bill for all houses combined. To add insult to injury, she suspects he gets a reduced rate because of his higher than normal usage. Don't quote me on that, i don't know how rates relate to usage in Thailand.

Sorry a very poor post from myself - Yes I better understand the position - For example I cannot direct debit pay the water bills at The Park condominium because a similar situation. It does have an upside for a Condominium - you don't pay the service charges things are cut off. I guess as a house landlord a similar thought process is in play but is perhaps more open to abuse.

[torrenova]

If in the contract, then you know before you sign. If not in, you should ask and know to ask !

....

Your girlfriend reading the contract indicates to me that it is in Thai and you cannot read Thai. That was and is your mistake.

Like i already said though, i had no idea to ask about rates because every time prior i was charged the actual rate.

As for the gf reading the contract, how is that my mistake? Realistically, should i have it professionally translated before signing? Learn thai script before signing? i'm not trying to be a smartass, but you're indicating that my mistake lies in the reading of the contract and the higher rates aren't mentioned there. I've been with the missus for years and she wouldn't care to have me second guess her ability to comprehend a short contract.

Thanks to everyone who has offered input on this btw, much appreciated.

On a completely different subject, does anyone know of any very high viscosity dielectric oils that can be injected into power meters?

Ok, I'll bite.

I guess you're bitching because you are getting overcharged. Yes, you, not your missus. I guess it is your money not hers. You go on about having a contract professionally translated. Therefore you cannot read Thai, yet you allowed yourself to be the financial backer to a contract you could not read or understand and which your missus either did not care to read, did not understand or didn't give a toss about. Do I think that is your mistake, I sure do. It is a mistake I would not make, here, there, or anywhere. What would happen if the contract was for you to pay Bt1,000,000 a month service charges ? If written in Thai words you would not have a clue.

I've also been with my missus for years but Whereas I may let her do some exploratory work in Thai, any contract is in English and I make dam_n sure that the other party understands what the contract states leaving no ambiguity. Why ? because I am the one who pays the bills and I don't do this mai pen rai bullshit.

I have electric meters or more precisely the missus does. They are ours, we pay for them but they are attached to our properties.

To assist, you need to know the meter readings, so go get them or maybe you didn't bother to get a meter reading when you moved in and have that meter reading put in the contract ? If not, then another oversight. However, you can go read the meter on the rent day and work out yourself.

Here are the electric sites you need to work out the right rates:

http://www.pea.co.th/th/eng/page.php?name=Residential

http://www.pea.co.th/th/eng/page.php?name=FT

The first gives you the unit cost. The second gives you the uplift per unit based on all manner of things but largely fuel costs. The second can change each month.

Add 1 and 2 together and multiply it by the number of units you have used. Then add VAT at 7%. Yuo then have the correct bill.

[loong]

Good links Torrenova.

Seems a strange billing system, but I suppose it does encourage some people to try to use less

[JetsetBkk]

How would you pay the bills yourself, if the bills are in the landlords name, and go directly to him?...

He gives you the bill.

You go to 7-11 with the bill.

You give the bill to staff at 7-11.

They ask you for money.

You give them the money.

They give you the bill back and the till receipt, and they sign the receipt.

[loong]

How would you pay the bills yourself, if the bills are in the landlords name, and go directly to him?...

He gives you the bill.

You go to 7-11 with the bill.

You give the bill to staff at 7-11.

They ask you for money.

You give them the money.

They give you the bill back and the till receipt, and they sign the receipt.

I'm quite sure that the OP's landlord would be more than happy for him to do that......The bill is for 6 other houses, plus the landlord's I assume, so the OP would be paying the bill for 8 properties.

I found out a little more info from another neighbor. There are six adjacent houses owned by the landlord (which i knew), but the meters on each are his own. I thought the meter on my house was owned by the power company, it's not. He is billed from a single meter before the split, then calculates our bills based on his meters. So he's not directly intercepting a bill for my house alone because no such bill exists, only the bill for all houses combined.

[Veazer]

Ok, I'll bite.

I guess you're bitching because you are getting overcharged.

That is the entire reason I am upset by this. If I was charged actual rates this thread would not be here.

Yes, you, not your missus. I guess it is your money not hers. You go on about having a contract professionally translated. Therefore you cannot read Thai, yet you allowed yourself to be the financial backer to a contract you could not read or understand and which your missus either did not care to read, did not understand or didn't give a toss about. Do I think that is your mistake, I sure do. It is a mistake I would not make, here, there, or anywhere. What would happen if the contract was for you to pay Bt1,000,000 a month service charges ? If written in Thai words you would not have a clue.

Woah! I don't see any need for you to try to guess the financial relationship between my girlfriend and I when this is a discussion about being overcharged for utilities by my landlord. She has a great job in software development and we share our financial responsibilities. Moving on...

If there was mention of inflated rates in the contract, or rates at all, then you would be correct, but as I've already stated there isn't. There is negligence on my part for trusting my partner to read the contract and not having it translated, but it doesn't work into this because the contract doesn't cover rates at all. I'll be more careful with future contracts, but not because i screwed up in this situation.

It is our fault for failing to ask the rates prior to signing the contract, and i've repeatedly covered that point. The remaining blame, and the majority, lies on the landlord for charging these bogus rates.

I do appreciate the links, they are useful. Now I wonder though, why did he go to the trouble of metering the houses separately himself and merging power connections when then end result is a higher per unit cost? He could have left the metering to the power company and made more money.

edit: typo

Edited April 10, 2009 by Veazer

[JetsetBkk]

I'm quite sure that the OP's landlord would be more than happy for him to do that......The bill is for 6 other houses, plus the landlord's I assume, so the OP would be paying the bill for 8 properties.

Ah, yes - I responded to Dave's post before reading Veazer's explanation about the 8 properties. (It was supposed to be facetious, too )

So basically, the landlord is either trying to get the tenants to pay for the cost of the 8 meters (I presume the electricity company charges for them) AND/OR trying to get them to pay for his time in doing the really tricky calculation on how to split the costs:

(House1 units / total units) * electric company bill in Baht * 500% = House1 charge.

Repeat for houses 2 through 8.

OR he's a real slimy git raking in money for nothing.

So the lesson here, as Veazer has said...

...It is our fault for failing to ask the rates prior to signing the contract...

...is to ALWAYS ask about electricity, water and telephone bills, as well as internet availability, etc. I even got the landlord to write in English on the contract (English contract) that no more houses would be built during the period of the contract. The last thing I wanted was builders arriving at sun-up and banging away all day, burning their empty plastic concrete sacks etc. at dusk, and then buggering off home leaving their pollution behind.

[ronz28]

Perhaps he was just upset that you didn't have the account switched to your name (your deposit) and he is still getting the bills and decided he is going to make you pay if that's the arrangement you want. He has to protect himself against a Farang leaving in the middle of the night and not paying the utility bills. You could apologize for not having done that and tell him you are paying the bills directly from now on and will provide him proof of payment if necessary.

I would go to the utility office and get the bills for your home switched into your name if that hasn't been done but shouldn't you have done that?

I would just tell the owner that all the money he gets is stated in the lease and you will pay all your bills directly since you are the legal occupant of the home. See a lawyer if needed.

[loong]

Perhaps he was just upset that you didn't have the account switched to your name (your deposit) and he is still getting the bills and decided he is going to make you pay if that's the arrangement you want. He has to protect himself against a Farang leaving in the middle of the night and not paying the utility bills. You could apologize for not having done that and tell him you are paying the bills directly from now on and will provide him proof of payment if necessary.

I would go to the utility office and get the bills for your home switched into your name if that hasn't been done but shouldn't you have done that?

ronz28,

please read Op's post at

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2651188

[ronz28]

Yes I skipped reading a few posts. To me, its basically a scam and I would still challenge it in whatever way is legally possible.

[Heng]

I do appreciate the links, they are useful. Now I wonder though, why did he go to the trouble of metering the houses separately himself and merging power connections when then end result is a higher per unit cost? He could have left the metering to the power company and made more money.

Each landlord has their own individual needs. For example: if he set up the individual meters himself, he can cut the power to select units when bills/rent isn't paid. He couldn't however do so if it was the power company's meter. Many landlords prefer to just lock the property down or cut off the water supply, but again, various properties, landlords, (and tenants) require a different protocol.

Also, although this apparently has changed from time to time, there have been times when the power company would not issue multiple meters to multiple homes on the same property (one chanote) unless it was registered as an apartment/condo, etc., and their standard answer was that you would need to split the meter after the main yourself into mini-meters.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Heng

[TerryLH]

"guess you're bitching because you are getting overcharged. Yes, you, not your missus. I guess it is your money not hers. You go on about having a contract professionally translated. Therefore you cannot read Thai, yet you allowed yourself to be the financial backer to a contract you could not read or understand and which your missus either did not care to read, did not understand or didn't give a toss about. Do I think that is your mistake, I sure do."

At least read the prior piosts before posting such rubbish.

[pkrv]

I do appreciate the links, they are useful. Now I wonder though, why did he go to the trouble of metering the houses separately himself and merging power connections when then end result is a higher per unit cost? He could have left the metering to the power company and made more money.

Each landlord has their own individual needs. For example: if he set up the individual meters himself, he can cut the power to select units when bills/rent isn't paid. He couldn't however do so if it was the power company's meter. Many landlords prefer to just lock the property down or cut off the water supply, but again, various properties, landlords, (and tenants) require a different protocol.

Also, although this apparently has changed from time to time, there have been times when the power company would not issue multiple meters to multiple homes on the same property (one chanote) unless it was registered as an apartment/condo, etc., and their standard answer was that you would need to split the meter after the main yourself into mini-meters.

After my own poor response (though it did contain some new thoughts];-) - yes this is, as it is. In Thailand, you do not pay rent/service charges/bills, you do not get water, electricty and all that other stuff. That is what this is about. This is a third world country, exactly what other options are open? 'Buyer beware'.

[LivinLOS]

I'm renting a one-bedroom place in BKK at the moment.

............

Water each month goes between 130 and 160 Baht.

Electricity has been from FREE to 220 Baht.

We have 2 air-cons, fridge, microwave, tv, cooker etc

all running off the mains.

What I'm saying here is, the government is funding a

large part of the utilities nowadays...............

Do you actually use the aircon? If so, I should think that you have a faulty meter.

I think that most Farangs did not qualify for free electricity as was only free if below 80 units used during the month. Over 80 and below 160 units used and you qualified for no free units, but all were half price. Over 160 units a month and no subsidy on any part of the bill.

We did manage to get half price electricity during the 6 months the subsidy was in force as most months were below 160 units.

I'm not sure, but I think that when they extended the scheme it was slimmed down to free electricity for consumers using less than 80 units, because gf's father gets his free, but we are now paying full price even when we use less than 160 units.

The smaller air-con is on almost constantly in the bedroom.

(The wife is pregnant and so naps a lot, while I need it on at night. ALL night.)

Units used over the few months here has averaged out to be around 140 / month.

Bear in mind I'm paying the bills, when required, directly so no-one knows that

it's a 'farang' footing the bill. The pad is under my landlady's name.

I don't think it's a faulty meter as this is the same bill ratio as my neighbours.

It's a brand new condo complex, only open since last September, so I'm quite sure

the bills are accurate. It just seems unusual to pay more for water each month

than electricity.

(This is why I think the OP should front up to his landlord.)

Somethings not right....

Light use AC in bedroom only for a few hours.. plus all my computers and TV's on (comps 24/7) is ALWAYS >2500 for me at 4baht per unit.. Last month I used >1000 kwh and have a almost 4.5k electric bill..

Theres no way all day AC use is coming in at 200 baht even on gov meters.

[LivinLOS]

How would you pay the bills yourself, if the bills are in the landlords name, and go directly to him?...

He gives you the bill.

You go to 7-11 with the bill.

You give the bill to staff at 7-11.

They ask you for money.

You give them the money.

They give you the bill back and the till receipt, and they sign the receipt.

Its not a conventional utility company bill... If it was it would be a lt easier.. The landlord is splitting something, he may have even paid for the transformer as a moobaan supply (that gets expensive fast)..

What exactly are you being charged per unit ??

[LivinLOS]

Ok, I'll bite.

I guess you're bitching because you are getting overcharged.

That is the entire reason I am upset by this. If I was charged actual rates this thread would not be here.

Yes, you, not your missus. I guess it is your money not hers. You go on about having a contract professionally translated. Therefore you cannot read Thai, yet you allowed yourself to be the financial backer to a contract you could not read or understand and which your missus either did not care to read, did not understand or didn't give a toss about. Do I think that is your mistake, I sure do. It is a mistake I would not make, here, there, or anywhere. What would happen if the contract was for you to pay Bt1,000,000 a month service charges ? If written in Thai words you would not have a clue.

Woah! I don't see any need for you to try to guess the financial relationship between my girlfriend and I when this is a discussion about being overcharged for utilities by my landlord. She has a great job in software development and we share our financial responsibilities. Moving on...

If there was mention of inflated rates in the contract, or rates at all, then you would be correct, but as I've already stated there isn't. There is negligence on my part for trusting my partner to read the contract and not having it translated, but it doesn't work into this because the contract doesn't cover rates at all. I'll be more careful with future contracts, but not because i screwed up in this situation.

It is our fault for failing to ask the rates prior to signing the contract, and i've repeatedly covered that point. The remaining blame, and the majority, lies on the landlord for charging these bogus rates.

I do appreciate the links, they are useful. Now I wonder though, why did he go to the trouble of metering the houses separately himself and merging power connections when then end result is a higher per unit cost? He could have left the metering to the power company and made more money.

edit: typo

Sorry but I am with Terranova here.. Its a bush league misstake to not know what the service fees for the utilities you have to pay.. simple as that..

Not only should it be addressed prior to signing.. It should be written in and the readings taken immediately at transfer / move in.. These forums are full of people moaning about landlords charging inflated amounts, every expat should know the possibility exists and in Thailand if the possibility exists it probably will. Its not the landlords fault, hes loving it, its the tennants responsibility to check A) how much gov meter or private meter C) whose responsible to fix things and replace them if they blow.. Its not a landlords responsibility to point out the ways he can screw you.

[torrenova]

"guess you're bitching because you are getting overcharged. Yes, you, not your missus. I guess it is your money not hers. You go on about having a contract professionally translated. Therefore you cannot read Thai, yet you allowed yourself to be the financial backer to a contract you could not read or understand and which your missus either did not care to read, did not understand or didn't give a toss about. Do I think that is your mistake, I sure do."

At least read the prior piosts before posting such rubbish.

Just what sort of person agrees anything, anywhere, in a language they do not understand ? Maybe you do as well. Stupid is as stupid does.