So What Kind Of Advice Did Asean Leaders Give Thai Pm?

[lannarebirth]

You are correct the last thing the UDD needs is Taksin as a vehicle for social change, he has way too much baggage .

If they were smart they would choose as their spolesman or leader a grass roots (non violent message bearing ),,, Nelson Mandella,,, Ghandi type who commands respect by their simplicity and lack of political baggage with a real rural background and an honest sense of the needs of the poor.

Mandella started out as a terrorist who authorized bombings of innocent women and children and he refused to renounce violence as a political tool which is why he sent so much time in prison. His wife Winnie frequently used the practice of "necklacing," - a petrol-filled tyre is placed around the neck of a victim and set ablaze - to punish those that she had disagreements with.

Thaksin has a lot less "baggage" than Mandella.

If Thaksin spends the next 27 years in prison (as Mandela did) and is able to rehabilitate his reputation, I'm willing to give him another look.

[Spee]

You are correct the last thing the UDD needs is Taksin as a vehicle for social change, he has way too much baggage .

If they were smart they would choose as their spolesman or leader a grass roots (non violent message bearing ),,, Nelson Mandella,,, Ghandi type who commands respect by their simplicity and lack of political baggage with a real rural background and an honest sense of the needs of the poor.

Mandella started out as a terrorist who authorized bombings of innocent women and children and he refused to renounce violence as a political tool which is why he sent so much time in prison. His wife Winnie frequently used the practice of "necklacing," - a petrol-filled tyre is placed around the neck of a victim and set ablaze - to punish those that she had disagreements with.

Thaksin has a lot less "baggage" than Mandella.

Now now UG ... no fair trying to rewrite history ... even if it is to restate "purposely forgotten" facts. Some people are very happy with their understanding of history, even if it is a fantasy of farce.

[gigiman]

This post is in respose to Heng's reply yesterday to my origional post about the inequality in Thai society.

MAN ,, IT REALLY GOT ME GOING AND I JUST GOTTA REPLY , FORGIVE ME IF I AM VENTING HERE , BUT I GOTTA DO IT , CAUSE IT SEEMS NOBODY I MEAN NOBODY , GETS IT , SO HERE IT GOES :

I could not agree with you more when you say that it is the same all over the world , that being that those who work hardest have forethought and frugalness end up with the most and that is human nature and only natural in MOST cases ,, all things and people being equal .

My whole point is , in Thailand ,,, all things are not equal because there is a huge " RACIAL " divide here in Thai society . Hence I CANNOT DISAGREE WITH YOU MORE WHEN YOU TRY TO APPLY YOUR STATEMENT OF :

" Sure, if you're holding the crap end of the stick, you try to convince yourself that it's really some kind of massive ponzi scheme or fraud... but common sense somewhere in the back of your mind makes you wonder how XX million of your countrymen all "fell for it. "

The racial prejudice that is inflicted on anyone with dark skin or features of indigenous people especially from up country provinces ie : Isan ,, is rampant and extends to all aspects of daily life from employment discrimination to even not being allowed in to an expensive hotel , shop etc.

If this kind of discrimination went on in the USA there would be a million lawsuits a day ,,, but the Thai's for decades have just sucked it up and tolerated it .

I also need to tell you that I am not Thai , but I have lived here for many years and I can name you dozens of times when I have gone places with Thai friends and they were stopped at the door and told they were not allowed in . In one case , with my girlfriend ,, when she was not allowed to walk into the lobby with me at an expensive hotel because the security guard said she was too "dark " and another case where a friend was going to meet me at the Gucci shop and was told she was not allowed in ,, until I told the staff she was with me.

I mean , ask yourself what it does to these people's sense of dignity and self worth on a daily basis.

Its not a great formula for getting ahead in society ,,,, all things NOT being equal ,, is it Heng ?

Hence your arguement that they are poor because they don't work as hard as everyone else and they have convinced themself its a fraud and a ponzi scheme is ridiculous . They don't have the same chances as the elites ,, DOESN'T ANYONE GET IT , . There is massive prejudice here in Thailand.

This is the nerve that Taksin touched with these people ,,, he woke them up to the fact that you don't have to fricking " TAKE IT ANYMORE " .

What do you want them to do work harder at being dirt poor rice farmers and get paid starvation wages for their rice crop by the government while elite middlemen and govenment officials make huge profits.

Do you want sales girls from up country who work in department stores in Bangkok and stand on their feet for 12 hours a day for 250 THB , or $7 a day , 6 days a week,,,, to be more frugal and work harder ( like what , 16 hours a day so they can really get ahead ) while the large corporations reap huge profits. Have you seen what they charge for simple goods in a store like Robisnson ,, I mean a simple mens dress shirt is more than it is in the USA. Hence think of the profit they take in but still pay starvation wages.

And , yes , I agree with what many have said here in alot of ways Taksin was an ass , he was not perfect , he was an arrogant sob in alot of ways. Thats not the point ,,,, the point is ,,

HE CHANGED THE STATUS QUO , LIKE IT OR NOT , and Thailand will never be the same .

This is what these protests were all about ,,, prejudice and inequality . One can try to explain it away all they want as just a " bunch of drunken troublemakers paid by Taksin " ,, but if you do you are kidding yourself .

Bottom line is , there is deepseated resentment that has been festering for decades here and it is beginning to boil to the surface in the form of protest and calls for equality and justice for all.

Anyone who has lived here long enough and is in touch with the Thai soul has seen it coming for a long time. Change is good , and as Obama said " Yes We Can ".

You know what Thailand ,, get ready for your own American style Martin Luther King civil rights movement ,, cause its a coming in a big way real soon . Let it be non-violent please.

And you know what Khun Taksin ,, you might have been an ass, and an SOB etc etc , but intentional or not at least you got this one right , this is at least the one good thing you did and thats why your supports love you so much and are blind to the rest of your failings.

Stay tuned.

Ciao

[Heng]

This post is in respose to Heng's reply yesterday to my origional post about the inequality in Thai society.

MAN ,, IT REALLY GOT ME GOING AND I JUST GOTTA REPLY , FORGIVE ME IF I AM VENTING HERE , BUT I GOTTA DO IT , CAUSE IT SEEMS NOBODY I MEAN NOBODY , GETS IT , SO HERE IT GOES :

I could not agree with you more when you say that it is the same all over the world , that being that those who work hardest have forethought and frugalness end up with the most and that is human nature and only natural in MOST cases ,, all things and people being equal .

My whole point is , in Thailand ,,, all things are not equal because there is a huge " RACIAL " divide here in Thai society . Hence I CANNOT DISAGREE WITH YOU MORE WHEN YOU TRY TO APPLY YOUR STATEMENT OF :

" Sure, if you're holding the crap end of the stick, you try to convince yourself that it's really some kind of massive ponzi scheme or fraud... but common sense somewhere in the back of your mind makes you wonder how XX million of your countrymen all "fell for it. "

The racial prejudice that is inflicted on anyone with dark skin or features of indigenous people especially from up country provinces ie : Isan ,, is rampant and extends to all aspects of daily life from employment discrimination to even not being allowed in to an expensive hotel , shop etc.

If this kind of discrimination went on in the USA there would be a million lawsuits a day ,,, but the Thai's for decades have just sucked it up and tolerated it .

I also need to tell you that I am not Thai , but I have lived here for many years and I can name you dozens of times when I have gone places with Thai friends and they were stopped at the door and told they were not allowed in . In one case , with my girlfriend ,, when she was not allowed to walk into the lobby with me at an expensive hotel because the security guard said she was too "dark " and another case where a friend was going to meet me at the Gucci shop and was told she was not allowed in ,, until I told the staff she was with me.

I mean , ask yourself what it does to these people's sense of dignity and self worth on a daily basis.

Its not a great formula for getting ahead in society ,,,, all things NOT being equal ,, is it Heng ?

Hence your arguement that they are poor because they don't work as hard as everyone else and they have convinced themself its a fraud and a ponzi scheme is ridiculous . They don't have the same chances as the elites ,, DOESN'T ANYONE GET IT , . There is massive prejudice here in Thailand.

This is the nerve that Taksin touched with these people ,,, he woke them up to the fact that you don't have to fricking " TAKE IT ANYMORE " .

What do you want them to do work harder at being dirt poor rice farmers and get paid starvation wages for their rice crop by the government while elite middlemen and govenment officials make huge profits.

Do you want sales girls from up country who work in department stores in Bangkok and stand on their feet for 12 hours a day for 250 THB , or $7 a day , 6 days a week,,,, to be more frugal and work harder ( like what , 16 hours a day so they can really get ahead ) while the large corporations reap huge profits. Have you seen what they charge for simple goods in a store like Robisnson ,, I mean a simple mens dress shirt is more than it is in the USA. Hence think of the profit they take in but still pay starvation wages.

hi G, thanks for the reply. What you described is actually the status quo in a lot of places in the world. What's the difference between someone being employed at Central or Robinson's for 200 Baht a day or one being employed in a factory that is contracted to say Pierre Cardin, Ralph Lauren, or Nike for 200 Baht a day. None. Would you call it a racist situation if you looked at the nationalities of the workers and those who enjoy most of the profit from such a set up? Hopefully not, unless you're a hypocrit.

Discrimination exists. Absolutely. However they didn't exactly roll out the red carpet for the Thai Chinese here either. They slowly had to build up their family lines and pass their wealth down over the years.

I would love a hardworking, thoughtful, and frugal indigenous Thai populace. It's simply not (generally speaking) their way of life though. The pioneers in America could no more expect the Native Americans to suddenly build up an industrial and manufacturing base.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Heng

[gigiman]

Hey Heng ,

Thanks for the reply love the back and forth debate.

Once again I have to agree with you , discrimination does exist everywhere.

The point I was trying to make in my long rant , was its hard to get ahead when you are not given the same opportunity form the get go and you have to operate with one hand tied behind your back.

I haven't seen on Thai Airways lately any femaile air hostesses who look anything like indigenous Thai people.

Same situation in the USA in the 50s and 60s when you never saw an African American or Hispanic as an air hostess.

Yes discrimination really exists here but it doesn't make it right and the people here are beginning to realize that . They have Takisin to thank for that. Ironic that he is Thai-Chinese , ha ha.

On a different note , how ridiculous is it that the current PM , Abhisti (did I spell that right = don't care) who is supposedly democratic and looking for political reform by doing the following:

* Banning the opposition party from hearing any broadcasts from their leaders by shutting down the one tv station that supports them

* Censoring the press

* Declaring a state of emergency which bans assembly of more than 5 people . Hum,,, how do you have a protest with only 5 people .? you don't ,, thats the point.

* Arresting opposition leaders and charging them with treason against the government . OK , SO LET ME SEE IF I GOT THIS RIGHT ,, NOW IN THAILAND IF YOU PROTEST AND VOICE YOUR OPPOSTIION ,,, IT'S TREASON ?

EXCUSE ME , HOLD ON A MINUTE , WHY DIDN'T THE YELLOW SHIRTS GET ARRESTED AND CHARGED WITH TREASON , THEY BROUGHT DOWN 2 GOVERNMENTS , CLOSED THE AIRPORTS FOR 8 DAYS COSTING THE COUNTRY BILLIONS ??????

OH , I FORGOT , THEY PUT THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT IN POWER ,,,, SORRY ,,,, . THAT MAKES IT OK.

* And my all time favorite GOVERNMENT ENFORCED AT BY THE BARREL OF A GUN ,, bring out the army with m-16s firing live ammunition mostly in the air but sometimes into the crowds to really stifle debate and protest. But the PM did this in a smart way , he , from what I heard used the 2 army divisions composed mostly of Khun Thai soldiers not from UP COUNTRY , who were less likely to back down against the protesters.

EXCUSE ME HOLD ON A MINUTE, WHY DIDN'T THE ARMY CRACK DOWN ON THE YELLOW SHIRTS ?

OBVIOUSLY THEY WANTED THE LAST TWO GOVERNMENTS TO FAIL , WHY ELSE ?

This doesn't sound like democracy to me , it sounds like dictatorship with the occasional sprinkling of liberty until libery gets out of hand and has to be reined back in.

Thailand is not moving forward its going back in time . What a waste .

Gigiman

[BigSnake]

I think there was a Genuine understand by all the leader and they all wish the PM best wishes in take care of the country problems.

[Heng]

Once again I have to agree with you , discrimination does exist everywhere.

The point I was trying to make in my long rant , was its hard to get ahead when you are not given the same opportunity form the get go and you have to operate with one hand tied behind your back.

I haven't seen on Thai Airways lately any femaile air hostesses who look anything like indigenous Thai people.

Funny that you choose that profession because TG flight attendants are one of the few fields where indigenous Thais still DO get a lot of the jobs. True, not county-esque Issan Thais, but plenty of 'pure' Thais of city descent. It's one of the few professions that many Thai Chinese steer away from (sure, there are plenty who are flight attendants, it's not like they are one unified tribe or anything) just like the entertainment business. It's considered a relatively short shelf life career without much chance for forward progress (you're likely not going to go from flight attendant to the board of directors, nor are you likely to ever own a television station starting out as an actor or actress).

Anyhoo, discrimination or no, there's nothing stopping the Issan masses from going the entrepreneurial route (which is the same route the Thai Chinese took on their way to taking over the entire economy).

[gigiman]

TOUCHE ,,, point well taken , ,, with the operative words being " taking over the entire country "

Now that we can agree on.

In any case , sooner or later who ever really runs the county is going to be faced with the fact that

it takes courage to recognize the real as opposed to the convenient that just keeps the tourists coming and the shops open.

Gigiman

Edited April 16, 2009 by gigiman