Emergency Laws In Pattaya Lifted

[spidercat]

Sadly OldMadRiver is one of the hardcore Yellows who will never change their mind or allow free thought.

I posted "Thaksin took from the rich Elite and gave to the lower levels to spread it".

OMR says "gave to the poor".

No, I did not say that. He spread it about to the levels below the Elite, which in turn spread it out amongst more people by the chain reaction, as opposed to it being taken all by just a very few uber rich elite.

OMR says Thaksin did not crack down on corruption, he did, in a big way, but he cracked down the Elite and allowed a lot more lower level fingers in the pie. (1)You cannot take a society that is used to total corruption and make it clean in one foul swoop. What you can do is spread it out more and more until so many fingers are in the pie that its so diluted that finally it becomes of no real importance, and from that stage, you clean it up.

(2)The drugs trade is run by the Elite,(3) how on earth do you think all the drugs get into Thailand and transported so easily around the place. Are the Army so useless they cannot patrol the borders or are they turning a blind eye on purpose? You choose! This was the first big run in between Thaksin and the Elite......by clamping down on drugs it stopped their income from this illicit trade and this was the first stage of upsetting them. Its well (4) documented how the drugs factories in Burma run at very low production levels once the crackdown was in place.

OMR might have Democrat connections, or their business may be suited to have Dems in power, but do not let these people with their lies and unproven allegations cloud peoples minds.

(5)Thaksin has never been proven to have taken any money for himself. And until such time as he is, he is innocent of any charges of taking money for himself.

One must be very careful not to allow the "anti-Thaksin" hype and propoganda to cloud the real issue and problem, and that is of course the 2006 coup and all events that followed.

Thailand needs its 1997 Peoples constitution back really.

(1) Aphisit destroyed any credibility Thaksin may have had in one clean sweep by not taking forceful action against the reds in Pattaya...checkmate

(2a) Bullshit...the methamphetamine drug trade is not run by any single entity, its a conglomeration of many different importers of methamphetamine (yabaa) burmese goods, mainly the Wah State army, which then redistributes to regional wholesalers which make individual runs to bangkok or other provinces.

The defect KMT troops in Mae Salong use to charge a fee to let them through the area until Khun Sa challenged them with a 500 strong mule train.

(2b) Crystal methamphetamine (ice) IS mainly imported from China this is the major source for Pseudoephedrine the other source is India- the main component needed to create this drug as well as regular methamphetamine(yabaa).

(2c) Marijuana is imported from Laos and Cambodia...Weed is a big load that smells, that couldnt possibly make it from the north/burma to the central region. It has to come by boat eg: Mekong river.

(2d) Opium is imported from Burma as well as grown within Thai borders.

(2d) Cocaine - Africans are the importers, their trade mark is wrapping coca in end tips of plastic bags, like the ones from 7-11.

(3) My statements above can easily illustrate how hard it is to entrap drug dealers, the government does not know which direction they are coming from, most seasoned dealers use old trade routes not on the maps. I can go to the Tachilek border and scoop up 100 tabs, and no one would know. Long time residents in these border areas do not need paperwork to travel between borders, because they are well known to the officials.

(4) Of course drug factories run at lower levels during a crackdown. Why would they boost production to get caught?

(5) I have a relative that paid millions of baht under the table to get the contract to construct part of the new airport. Not directly to Thaksin, but to his relatives.

why are drugs easily distributed you ask? its not because of the elitist...it's the fires that are lit every year to supposedly clear old brush....the smoke blocks satellite imagery of the mule trains. Dogs become useless, binoculars become useless, heat sensing radar becomes useless, soldiers become useless because they are not native to the territory, and lookouts see them coming from a mile away.

You really want to end the meth drug trade you have to monitor the Indian border, since thailand does not have a border with India, its up to burma and everyone knows thats not going to happen.

So they set the brush fires in the north. If you look at drug seizures for any given year, the incidence of brush fires will be corresponding in relation.

Hmmmm.......... This guy knows his drugs!!!

[h90]

It was all about money. I wouldn't wonder if former yellow protesters are red shirts now. Many of our staffs and other workers i know, became offers between 1000 and 2000 Baht per person and day, to go there, got a red shirt from them and stay arround to protest a little bit. i guess most of the protesters don't care about politics anyway. They only go for the money. Where else they can get in 3 days between 3'000 and 6'000 Baht Salary? i think all the protests are a matter of how long the mob can support them.

At least red pays more than the yellows... they paid 1000bht per protester and took away their id cards so they could'nt leave, thats why they stayed at the airport and then ruined Thai's tourist industry, lets not forget who started this shit

my wife was at the airport and no one took her id card, when she came back one of our staff went there and came back no one took his id card...pure nonsense.

[xminator]

And to introduce two concepts in what both the yellow and the red where doing:

Proportionality This will be very important when it comes to how the government deal with protest leaders. If the response is disproportional, that is they hand out 20 years of prison in showcase trials, it will not exactly save face as far as western opinion is concerned. In the extreme case it will give Thailand its very own Aung San Suu Kyi. Also they might be able to explain the diffrence in harshness toward red leaders compared to yellow leaders in their own controlled media, but it will be impossible to defend this in the general public, let alone in western media. In a democratic country the police would hold the leaders in custody as long as they could without asking the court for longer custody based on danger of lost evidence, normally a few hours, then they would let them go. The penalty at most some hours public service or more likely a small fine.

Abhisits reactions to the summit disaster is clearly out of proportions. Yes you lost face, but it was your own competence that lost you that face. Saying the government was not responsible is ... not exactly right. Maybe he ment to say "not acting responsible"...

Civil disobedience Thailand even got its own section by Wikipedia here... Not all civil disobedience need to be Ghandi style, even if thats what is most effective for giving your own cause good publicity. Blocking traffic is fair sport. Sitting down in front of police is fair sport. I would even say blocking the airport is fair sport. My main argument against the blocking of the airport is mainly the protesters cause and the governments failure to actually prevent it. And that does not include use of lethal force, that one is always disproportional against anyone using civil disobedience as a tool for their cause.

In the end it comes down to each movements goals. While Thaksin is a thug, he is also champion of the 1997 constitution and as an extension democracy. How fair that one is is another discussion. The yellows, and in the extension the current government is children of the 2007 constitution. Devised by a Junta. A product of a military coup. Sorry, but personally thats where my lack of sympathy for both the PAD and current government starts. And one thing is certain, in an elite versus poor struggle its very clear where the western sympathy goes (not including FOX...).

Solution is simple. Dissolve the house. New elections. Give UN full access with observers during the election process and accept the UNs conclusion on wether it was fair elections or not. No meddling by the courts after the votes are cast.

[sinewave]

Thaksin is new elite. He comes from old "relative" wealth, not old "absolute" wealth. To put it in farang terms, Thaksin has a non-immigrant O visa, while the elites have permanent residency.

have to give out props when theyre deserved...

[zorro1]

Im in Pattaya now, or should it be change to ghost town? Last night at the hard rock hotel they had 12 buses evacuating nervous tourists

[norwayeagle]

I am no Brit but I find it funny that anyone would defend the wreck in Thailand by attacking the UK.

The UK is a functioning democracy and Thailand is not.

Mad Maggie with Reaganism-lite destroyed that island long ago. Thailand is a developing nation and many things are still pretty much "under development". But at least Thailand has a trade surplus and healthy industrial base to build upon unlike stupid western countries, building their utopian shopping mall nirvanas with easy credit. Now it is all coming crashing down and we will see how functioning those democracies really are.

In a way you are rigth: But but.,,

Whats concerning this country,,, I,,, see, Thailand is following the same path as western societies stomped in Yeeeears ago.Shoppingmalls,starf,,ks,K,<deleted>,,,cing c, mac litt ,( sorryyy) bla bla you name it!.AND they Looooove it.Hmmm. N yea we all will see now how functionable thee "democracies" are in nearby future!Ps: they are actually functionable,But nothing is perfect

[LuckyFive8888]

Thaksin is new elite. He comes from old "relative" wealth, not old "absolute" wealth. To put it in farang terms, Thaksin has a non-immigrant O visa, while the elites have permanent residency.

have to give out props when theyre deserved...

honestly, put yourself in thaksin's shoe, what would be your priority? to unfreeze your 76 billion baht or to thailand's so called a cry for 'real' democracy?

come'on guys! can someone unfreeze my 76 billion please

[xminator]

Also a reply to the numerous people saying asian mentality aint ready for democracy - South Korea and Japan seem to do just fine. Its not perfect, but thats also the nature of a functioning democracy.

[RPMcMurphy]

Also a reply to the numerous people saying asian mentality aint ready for democracy - South Korea and Japan seem to do just fine. Its not perfect, but thats also the nature of a functioning democracy.

Of course , it's just a lame excuse to excuse total incompetence , and justify corruption and exploitation on a scale nowhere near comparable to what goes on in those democracies ( for the Thai apologists out there who were going to tell me that corruption is everywhere) .

[LuckyFive8888]

Also a reply to the numerous people saying asian mentality aint ready for democracy - South Korea and Japan seem to do just fine. Its not perfect, but thats also the nature of a functioning democracy.

these 2 countries are not south-east asian and thus different mentality. i would say malaysia and singapore are good model for an asian mentality although they are not really democratic but just for the sake that they are called democratic form of government.

[h90]

Im in Pattaya now, or should it be change to ghost town? Last night at the hard rock hotel they had 12 buses evacuating nervous tourists

timekeeper just posted at the "thai tourism to loose money" that everything is like always today

[xminator]

Im in Pattaya now, or should it be change to ghost town? Last night at the hard rock hotel they had 12 buses evacuating nervous tourists

timekeeper just posted at the "thai tourism to loose money" that everything is like always today

Of course everything is like normal. Sun rises, the girls need money, the old pigs need something else. Pattaya revolves around what its always done. It might have been a setback for the mayors plans of making the place a respectable holiday resort, but nothing compared to the daily nails they put in that coffin themselfs...

[h90]

Im in Pattaya now, or should it be change to ghost town? Last night at the hard rock hotel they had 12 buses evacuating nervous tourists

timekeeper just posted at the "thai tourism to loose money" that everything is like always today

Of course everything is like normal. Sun rises, the girls need money, the old pigs need something else. Pattaya revolves around what its always done. It might have been a setback for the mayors plans of making the place a respectable holiday resort, but nothing compared to the daily nails they put in that coffin themselfs...

so full of tourists and hookers as always? Tourists are not running away, no panic?? No empty city?

[Vindie]

you didn't read much as well. The yellows had 10x more protesters and there are pictures of it. And that 30 percent thing is just propaganda, it is 1000 times explained on this forum. Like ASTV is one sided your informations are just the other side. pretty naive...as you told yourself.

The yellow protests had several thousand at its peak. To say they had 10x 100,000 is patently ridiculous. A picture doesn't capture more or less when numbers ride up into the tens of thousands anyway. Only a few thousand occupied the airport. The PAD broadcasts openly advertised cash payments to people who could join the protests. The reds have, by most international media, amassed over 100,000 at a time. The 30 percent rule is well documented in foreign and local media. The reality remains that the court was stacked by the coup administration and commenced enforcing justice upon it's adversaries.

The electorate lost 3 successive democratically elected PMs through coup and court action. Sonthi has been videotaped claiming that Surayud promised him a free television station if his protests were successful (a promise that was not fulfilled, but why would he claim such a thing if it wasn't true?). Thai politicians have been historically corrupt. The Democrats are amongst the most corrupt of the bunch. Thaksin's ethics aside, he used government sources to improve the lives of the poor. Some of his policies might have been poorly conceived, but I don't think anyone can argue that 30 baht health care wasn't a huge boon to poor Thais. Abhisit, an active opponent of the scheme, has now announced a free health care scheme. Hypocrisy. His 'free education' scheme has already developed into corrupt practices in several provinces (vouchers for materials only good at approved shops who charge exhorbitant prices).

I understand that bad taste that Thaksin has left in a lot of mouths. By western standards he was a tyrant, but he was democratically elected. Did he buy votes? Probably... but I challenge you to find an MP who hasn't in this country. During the last election in Chiang Mai my Thai friends were visited and paid by no less than 4 politicos from different parties (yes, the Dems were among them). This is the young Thai version of democracy. It's pretty flawed, but look at the region and ask yourself why you live in Thailand and not Cambodia or Malaysia.

[LevelHead]

BBC and other international media now reporting on the Abhisit/Democrat "HYPOCRISY" of arresting a red shirt leader, but never doing anything about the yellow shirts who took over government house and shut down the international airport.

The man is looking like a complete idiot now to many people worldwide, just what the reds want him to look like. Talk about a dumb move, how can you arrest a red when not one single yellow leader has been arrested.

Say that holding the Asean summit is a test of their power, and then it fails in full view of the world.

Now arrest a red leader whilst never arresting a yellow.

If one person or group is causing severe harm to Thailand's reputation, its Abhisit and the Democrats. Give the mandate back to the people, dissolve the house and put back the 1997 constitution.

[h90]

BBC and other international media now reporting on the Abhisit/Democrat "HYPOCRISY" of arresting a red shirt leader, but never doing anything about the yellow shirts who took over government house and shut down the international airport.

The man is looking like a complete idiot now to many people worldwide, just what the reds want him to look like. Talk about a dumb move, how can you arrest a red when not one single yellow leader has been arrested.

Say that holding the Asean summit is a test of their power, and then it fails in full view of the world.

Now arrest a red leader whilst never arresting a yellow.

If one person or group is causing severe harm to Thailand's reputation, its Abhisit and the Democrats. Give the mandate back to the people, dissolve the house and put back the 1997 constitution.

On March 30 the yellow leader had to report to the police to hear their charges. They did so and are waiting now for the courts....

[Vindie]

Just as an aside:

What pretty much EVERYONE has ignored is that the reds' original demands had nothing to do with Thaksin. They wanted fresh democratic elections and the investigation and prosecution of the criminals who took over the airport. These are reasonable demands. Thaksin has been gone a long time without much complaint, but the unfair practices by the opposition have given old Thaksin a leg to stand on. It's easy to hate Thaksin and focus on him... but if you do, you lose the democratic perspective.

[xminator]

BBC and other international media now reporting on the Abhisit/Democrat "HYPOCRISY" of arresting a red shirt leader, but never doing anything about the yellow shirts who took over government house and shut down the international airport.

The man is looking like a complete idiot now to many people worldwide, just what the reds want him to look like. Talk about a dumb move, how can you arrest a red when not one single yellow leader has been arrested.

Say that holding the Asean summit is a test of their power, and then it fails in full view of the world.

Now arrest a red leader whilst never arresting a yellow.

If one person or group is causing severe harm to Thailand's reputation, its Abhisit and the Democrats. Give the mandate back to the people, dissolve the house and put back the 1997 constitution.

On March 30 the yellow leader had to report to the police to hear their charges. They did so and are waiting now for the courts....

Its stille make the current government look like thugs. Eliteist court lawyertalk might work in court, but never in the 5th state power - the media.

[h90]

Just as an aside:

What pretty much EVERYONE has ignored is that the reds' original demands had nothing to do with Thaksin. They wanted fresh democratic elections and the investigation and prosecution of the criminals who took over the airport. These are reasonable demands. Thaksin has been gone a long time without much complaint, but the unfair practices by the opposition have given old Thaksin a leg to stand on. It's easy to hate Thaksin and focus on him... but if you do, you lose the democratic perspective.

And than Thaksin took over control himself. Told that Privy counsel must resign, told the he'll lead his troops personally from Issan to Bangkok to take over power blablabla and made our of the reasonable demands a complete joke.

[Vindie]

Just as an aside:

What pretty much EVERYONE has ignored is that the reds' original demands had nothing to do with Thaksin. They wanted fresh democratic elections and the investigation and prosecution of the criminals who took over the airport. These are reasonable demands. Thaksin has been gone a long time without much complaint, but the unfair practices by the opposition have given old Thaksin a leg to stand on. It's easy to hate Thaksin and focus on him... but if you do, you lose the democratic perspective.

And than Thaksin took over control himself. Told that Privy counsel must resign, told the he'll lead his troops personally from Issan to Bangkok to take over power blablabla and made our of the reasonable demands a complete joke.

You're probably right. The real way to gain justice in Thailand is hire some thugs and take over airports. Strand 100,000s of tourists, stab and shoot people who are wearing the wrong color (gang banger style)... eventually you'll get what you want. Thaksin can talk all he wants, but he is only a face in front of the movement. Like I said, he's been gone a long time... and he's only gained the relevance again because of the actions of the opposition. If the courts weren't stacked, and elections were held fair and free (and monitored for fraud without bias), none of this would have happened in the first place. People keep crying "Give Abhisit a chance..." but in the end... he and his puppet-masters gave Thaksin his!

[eldar1]

BBC and other international media now reporting on the Abhisit/Democrat "HYPOCRISY" of arresting a red shirt leader, but never doing anything about the yellow shirts who took over government house and shut down the international airport.

The man is looking like a complete idiot now to many people worldwide, just what the reds want him to look like. Talk about a dumb move, how can you arrest a red when not one single yellow leader has been arrested.

Say that holding the Asean summit is a test of their power, and then it fails in full view of the world.

Now arrest a red leader whilst never arresting a yellow.

If one person or group is causing severe harm to Thailand's reputation, its Abhisit and the Democrats. Give the mandate back to the people, dissolve the house and put back the 1997 constitution.

I thought TRT/Thaksin/Red shirts where the government while the PAD demonstrations and airport seizures were on. It's hard to be a hypocrite when you were in in charge the first time, and as H90 pointed out the PAD leadership has been charged with criminal misconduct by the abhisit led government.

[spidercat]

Just as an aside:

What pretty much EVERYONE has ignored is that the reds' original demands had nothing to do with Thaksin. They wanted fresh democratic elections and the investigation and prosecution of the criminals who took over the airport. These are reasonable demands. Thaksin has been gone a long time without much complaint, but the unfair practices by the opposition have given old Thaksin a leg to stand on. It's easy to hate Thaksin and focus on him... but if you do, you lose the democratic perspective.

You have a fair point there Vindie - There has been a few comments from some saying bring back Thaksin, over the past two years and there was no real fuss to include him in the last election (although, I believe he did pretty much control TRT still) but I don't recall mass rallies to demand his return.

[eldar1]

Just as an aside:

What pretty much EVERYONE has ignored is that the reds' original demands had nothing to do with Thaksin. They wanted fresh democratic elections and the investigation and prosecution of the criminals who took over the airport. These are reasonable demands. Thaksin has been gone a long time without much complaint, but the unfair practices by the opposition have given old Thaksin a leg to stand on. It's easy to hate Thaksin and focus on him... but if you do, you lose the democratic perspective.

You have a fair point there Vindie - There has been a few comments from some saying bring back Thaksin, over the past two years and there was no real fuss to include him in the last election (although, I believe he did pretty much control TRT still) but I don't recall mass rallies to demand his return.

But why is it that the red shirt are always having video links with thaksin? If they truly are only pro-democracy then why associate yourself with thaksin? Thaksin is hardly the stalwart of democratic values.

[seri thai]

Just as an aside:

What pretty much EVERYONE has ignored is that the reds' original demands had nothing to do with Thaksin. They wanted fresh democratic elections and the investigation and prosecution of the criminals who took over the airport. These are reasonable demands. Thaksin has been gone a long time without much complaint, but the unfair practices by the opposition have given old Thaksin a leg to stand on. It's easy to hate Thaksin and focus on him... but if you do, you lose the democratic perspective.

And than Thaksin took over control himself. Told that Privy counsel must resign, told the he'll lead his troops personally from Issan to Bangkok to take over power blablabla and made our of the reasonable demands a complete joke.

On a lighter note here's comment of the week from the Nation.......

COMMENT

Must Thailand sink further?

Published on April 12, 2009

The image of Pattaya as a resort destination has also been tarnished beyond repair.

[rixalex]

What pretty much EVERYONE has ignored is that the reds' original demands had nothing to do with Thaksin.

Been ignored because it's not true. The reds and Thaksin are inextricably linked. It's a shame because if the reds were fighting for all the things they say they are, and they were against Thaksin, they would have a lot of credibility.

They wanted prosecution of the criminals who took over the airport.

Fair enough, but logically if they want that, they will also be demanding that they themselves are prosecuted for what happened in Pattaya, right?

[spidercat]

Just as an aside:

What pretty much EVERYONE has ignored is that the reds' original demands had nothing to do with Thaksin. They wanted fresh democratic elections and the investigation and prosecution of the criminals who took over the airport. These are reasonable demands. Thaksin has been gone a long time without much complaint, but the unfair practices by the opposition have given old Thaksin a leg to stand on. It's easy to hate Thaksin and focus on him... but if you do, you lose the democratic perspective.

You have a fair point there Vindie - There has been a few comments from some saying bring back Thaksin, over the past two years and there was no real fuss to include him in the last election (although, I believe he did pretty much control TRT still) but I don't recall mass rallies to demand his return.

But why is it that the red shirt are always having video links with thaksin? If they truly are only pro-democracy then why associate yourself with thaksin? Thaksin is hardly the stalwart of democratic values.

I think its probably a bit of the 'better the devil you know' syndrome and because the majority of the rural voters did actually benefit from him so - Mai-ben-arai if he helps himself as well!

[eldar1]

They wanted prosecution of the criminals who took over the airport.

Fair enough, but logically if they want that, they will also be demanding that they themselves are prosecuted for what happened in Pattaya, right?

Exactly

[LuckyFive8888]

martial law is being declared NOW for some cities in thailand....

[AlbertE]

ENOUGH OF THE RHETORIC!

Anyone who is in any doubt of the nature of the violent red-shirt/Thaksin group need only to view this news clip from a Canadian reporter of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation who was at the scene . Check out yahoo news for the clip. It clearly shows an armed mob out of control.

It is abundantly clear this was not a peaceful protest and it is also clear that the preparations for security were appropriate but as the news reporter says " months of security preparations Seemed To Simply Melt Away as hundreds of protesters arrived at the summit site and seized control of the main conference hall without a single shot being fired."

It is rather obvious that the military and police are involved in the staged embarrassment of the government and its attempt to bring Thailand back to a democratic state.

Enough said.

I know this is off topic, but why do the Thai Media lie to the Thai People for?

The reds went peacefully to meeting in pattaya, and they got ambushed by the blue's who were the only group carrying weapons.

I'm not a supporter, but as the human rights state, everyone has their right to protest peacefully, and the red's are being prevoked into voilence.

I have a feeling, that there may be a civil war going to kick of soon if this not sorted out soon.

They needs to let the people take vote, and the people need a government that will listen to voices of all thais, not just the rich or the poor, but all thais.

[dogleg]

BBC just said there is a state of emergency declared in BKK