Raising Other's Children

[mbkudu]

Excuse my ignorance, for my wife and I have no children so I have no experience raising children. I just read a reader's submission on Stickman and this was in it:

"In Thai society it is considered to be amongst the lowest of dishonourable conduct to raise another man's child, unless of course you are the grandfather."

I have never heard this before and wonder if this is indeed an attitude within Thai society. I am also wondering how Thais view the Farang man who helps raise his wife's child from her previous marriage. In the west it is quite common to raise stepchildren and there is no social head trip at all.

[Mig15]

If that is the lowest of dishonorable conduct what is abandoning ones children and wife to fend for themselves? The height of good conduct? You don’t want to believe everything you read on Stickman.

[mbkudu]

If that is the lowest of dishonorable conduct what is abandoning ones children and wife to fend for themselves?  The height of good conduct? You don’t want to believe everything you read on Stickman.

I am not sure I believe it; it is just one person's opinion. And you are most definitely right; there are not many sins bigger than abandoning one's wife and child.

[tutsiwarrior]

how timely...last night here in Bahrain there was an Oprah-type chat show hosted by a man that featured a dude who was confronted by 4 angry ex-wives/girlfriends by whom he had 4 children that he subsequently had abandoned. My wife wondered what the fuss was about and I explained that in many falang cultures it is bad to have children and then run off.

She looked puzzled. Her brother has about 5 kids by the same amount of women and doesn't pay them a bean in support. She also wondered why I pay a considerable amount to my ex-wife every month in support of my son. Yet she doesn't mind that I pay her mother about GBP300 every month in support of her and the various kids she looks after (one of which is a daughter by her brother).

Funny old world...

[sua yai]

My ex and I brought her three children down from Buriram province a couple of years after the husband had died. They'd been looked after by family.

I felt it much better that they were with their mother and they got a good education as well.

I was treated totally differently to what was expressed in the original post. Everyone up there seemed to genuinely respect the fact that I had taken on the responsibility.

[Ajarn]

I was treated totally differently to what was expressed in the original post. Everyone up there seemed to genuinely respect the fact that I had taken on the responsibility.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's been my experience, too. Sometimes they might feel pity for your situation, but honorable actions seem pretty much universally appreciated by those with reasonable minds and hearts, in my experience. All others can piss off, anyway

[kat]

I agree with all of the above. But we haven't really answered the question of the thread: Is raising another man's children looked down upon by any segment of Thai society.

If it is, I would bet it is a macho thing for men. Does anyone else know?

[Ajarn]

I agree with all of the above.  But we haven't really answered the question of the thread:  Is raising another man's children looked down upon by any segment of Thai society. 

If it is, I would bet it is a macho thing for men.  Does anyone else know?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the question has been answered. Some people look down, some don't. As is human nature in most parts of this world, I'd venture to suggest. But it isn't any kind of universal Thai cultural issue. The times they are a changing in Thailand, too, and different people have different ideas, including Thais

[kat]

Well, maybe the question has been answered for you, but it hasn't for me. I don't affix a one-size-fits-all explanation to culture. There are plenty of nuances and segmented viewpoints that may take time to learn.

Most likely many people here appreciate it for what is, but I wonder if it is a male-pride issue not to raise other's children.

[chonabot]

Well, maybe the question has been answered for you, but it hasn't for me.  I don't affix a one-size-fits-all explanation to culture.  There are plenty of nuances and segmented viewpoints that may take time to learn.

Most likely many people here appreciate it for what is, but I wonder if it is a male-pride issue not to raise other's children.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That cliche would probably please you , would it not Kat?

Chon ( Who is happy raising his wife's child )

[kat]

What's the matter Chon - are you still sore from that last thread, in which I objected to poor taste and bad timing? Since I apologized for my tone, and you for your poor taste, what's the point of following me around in another thread?

If I accepted cliches in lieu of actual thought, I would sound more like many of the men who post regularly on this forum.

Edit: One other thing, read the actual thread before you start targeting me. The topic is about Thai men not wanting to raise other men's children

Get it? Foreign men raise other's children, but the question is: do Thai men look down on it?

Edited January 26, 2005 by kat

[Ajarn]

What's the matter Chon - are you still sore from that last thread, in which I objected to poor taste and bad timing?  Since I apologized for my tone, and you for your poor taste, what's the point of following me around in another thread?

If I accepted cliches in lieu of actual thought, I would sound more like many of the men who post regularly on this forum.

Edit:  One other thing, read the actual thread before you start targeting me.  The topic is about Thai men not wanting to raise other men's children 

Get it?  Foreign men raise other's children, but the question is:  do Thai men look down on it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Assuming you're not asking as some kind of mind-###### with Chon, what kind of answer is going to satisfy you???

Facts:

Do all Thai men feel that way? NO

Do some Thai men feel that way? YES

But you could have figured that out yourself, right?

Edited January 26, 2005 by Ajarn

[Tattytam]

do Thai men look down on it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not sure if looking down on it is the right phrase. I have discussed this with my thai partner and he certainly said he wouldn't do it and couldn't understand anyone else doing it. When questioned further -if we split up was I then supposed to stay single? He said that he would worry about our son if I was to get together with someone else as they wouldn't love him like I / we do. Specially if me and the new man had our own children. Having said that he doesn't seem to look down on the many farang men that do support their girlfriends children. Haven't really shed alot of light on it have I?

Ah well, interesting thread anyway.

[kat]

Edit: Ajarn QUOTE

"Assuming you're not asking as some kind of mind-###### with Chon, what kind of answer is going to satisfy you???

Facts:

Do all Thai men feel that way? NO

Do some Thai men feel that way? YES

But you could have figured that out yourself, right?" END QUOTE

How is it that I'm the one mind-######? Chonabot obviously misinterpreted the question and my comments.

What kind of answer is going to satisfy me? One that is reflected upon and corroborated by many different viewpoints, both Thai and foreign. And definitely not one that is declared a "Fact" by one person. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to sense a possible connection between Thai male attitudes and Thai women who can't remarry after having a child.

Can I figure out your gross generalizations? Well yeah, but my point was to try and get beyond them. You seem to be agitated that I don't accept your explanation as gospel. Get over it.

Edited January 26, 2005 by kat

[davethailand]

I'm bringing up my wife's 2 kids and I agree thats it's fair that if I marry their mum and live with her in Thailand then the kids should be with us also.

The fathers (yes 2 different Dads) are too ignorant and lazy to do anything for them (we've changed the kids names back to her family name already) so i'll take care of them, They've both been told not to bother trying to contact us or them (they have'nt bothered in the past years anyway) and they can go **** thelmselves and so can anyone who looks down on me for giving 2 kids a good education.

[chuchok]

I asked the world authority(Wifie).She said it would be the same in any country if the father was a jealous type.Otherwise mai pen rai.

[chonabot]

Happy Days.....

[tuky]

I'm bringing up my wife's 2 kids and I agree thats it's fair that if I marry their mum and live with her in Thailand then the kids should be with us also.

The fathers (yes 2 different Dads) are too ignorant and lazy to do anything for them (we've changed the kids names back to her family name already) so i'll take care of them, They've both been told not to bother trying to contact us or them (they have'nt bothered in the past years anyway) and they can go **** thelmselves and so can anyone who looks down on me for giving 2 kids a good education.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

a disgraceful thing your doing there Dave, how do you ever live with yourself?

[Boo]

My husband has an ex with a disabled daughter whos father was absent from her birth (mother is a head nurse in his home town) He stayed with her for 5 years while the daughter was age between 10-15 years old, they later split up but the daughter (now a uni student in Khon Kaen) is like a mentor/older sister to hubbies 12y/o neice.

[kat]

I asked the world authority(Wifie).She said it would be the same in any country if the father was a jealous type.Otherwise mai pen rai.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But actually, it's not the same as any other country. There are major custody battles over children in many other countries, and the level of abandonment is not as high across the board.

Boo: your hubby sounds amazing.

To everyone else: I thought I was clear in my initial post, but in case I'm not: I am not looking down on men who raise other people's children. I am merely following the original question of this thread.

[Boo]

Kat,

I know a few guys who couldn't care less about their kids in western countries, just walk away, no support nothing, there are other guys I know who need to be kept away from their kids for their own well being & others who would walk on hot coals for them & see their kids as often as possible. I think it's down to the individual & how important they view thier children. A lot of thai men leave their wives & kids & a lot don't. I know one thai guy who is raising the half farang child of his thai wife after the farang husband pissed off back to Europe leaving the wife & child destitute. All of these deadbeat losers deserve to be jailed, regardless of what nationality they are.

[chuchok]

I asked the world authority(Wifie).She said it would be the same in any country if the father was a jealous type.Otherwise mai pen rai.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But actually, it's not the same as any other country. There are major custody battles over children in many other countries, and the level of abandonment is not as high across the board.

Boo: your hubby sounds amazing.

To everyone else: I thought I was clear in my initial post, but in case I'm not: I am not looking down on men who raise other people's children. I am merely following the original question of this thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I asked her again with the example you gave and she gave the same answer.If the male was a jealous of somebody else bringing up their children, then yes there would be a problem.She did not know of any cultural reason. This is just her opinion.

[Ajarn]

Edit:  Ajarn QUOTE

"Assuming you're not asking as some kind of mind-###### with Chon, what kind of answer is going to satisfy you???

Facts:

Do all Thai men feel that way? NO

Do some Thai men feel that way? YES

But you could have figured that out yourself, right?"  END QUOTE

How is it that I'm the one mind-######?  Chonabot obviously misinterpreted the question and my comments.

What kind of answer is going to satisfy me?  One that is reflected upon and corroborated by many different viewpoints, both Thai and foreign.  And definitely not one that is declared a "Fact" by one person.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to sense a possible connection between Thai male attitudes and Thai women who can't remarry after having a child. 

Can I figure out your gross generalizations?  Well yeah, but my point was to try and get beyond them.  You seem to be agitated that I don't accept your explanation as gospel.  Get over it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You obviously don't know me very well. I have nothing to 'get over'.

It seems to me that you're the one looking for gross generalizations. There is no single 'yes' or 'no' answer to your question that covers all Thai male's thinking. What I wrote is true and factual, and also based on my direct experiences here over a number of years whether you call it cliche' or whatever. You can show nothing to show me wrong, can you? Just throw stones, it seems. Whatever opinion you want agreement with will be found with someone, and, whatever opinion you want dissent to will also be found with someone....

So, maybe you are the one with something to 'get over'

[chonabot]

I asked the world authority(Wifie).She said it would be the same in any country if the father was a jealous type.Otherwise mai pen rai.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But actually, it's not the same as any other country. There are major custody battles over children in many other countries, and the level of abandonment is not as high across the board.

Boo: your hubby sounds amazing.

To everyone else: I thought I was clear in my initial post, but in case I'm not: I am not looking down on men who raise other people's children. I am merely following the original question of this thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have several Asian friends here in the UK ( Sri Lankan , Japanese , Indian ) who all told me , when I adopted Andy , that it would be impossible for them to do this.

Religions/Culture apart , they all expressed disgust at bringing up another mans child.

Not Thai culture , yet not a million miles apart.

Is this male pride? , is it ancient ways ?

It is one thing for sure - Very Sad.

[Ajarn]

I asked the world authority(Wifie).She said it would be the same in any country if the father was a jealous type.Otherwise mai pen rai.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But actually, it's not the same as any other country. There are major custody battles over children in many other countries, and the level of abandonment is not as high across the board.

Boo: your hubby sounds amazing.

To everyone else: I thought I was clear in my initial post, but in case I'm not: I am not looking down on men who raise other people's children. I am merely following the original question of this thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have several Asian friends here in the UK ( Sri Lankan , Japanese , Indian ) who all told me , when I adopted Andy , that it would be impossible for them to do this.

Religions/Culture apart , they all expressed disgust at bringing up another mans child.

Not Thai culture , yet not a million miles apart.

Is this male pride? , is it ancient ways ?

It is one thing for sure - Very Sad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chon, regarding adoption, I've been told by workers in a few Baan Dek's that adoption is still a rarity in Thailand among Thais, generally. Most of their adoptions are by foreigners they said... Yes, it is sad. I grew up without a dad and it sucked.

Hope to see more folks like you taking in these kids.

[kat]

Ajarn quote:

You can show nothing to show me wrong, can you? Just throw stones, it seems. Whatever opinion you want agreement with will be found with someone, and, whatever opinion you want dissent to will also be found with someone....

So, maybe you are the one with something to 'get over'

Actually, I already admitted that I am still trying to figure it out. I don't purport to know it all, like you do. If you don't like throwing stones, then don't cast the first one. The only thing that I need to get over are attitudes like yours, which seem to suggest that your questions are the only ones worth asking - or not, as the case may be.

Whatever. Back to the topic.

[Ajarn]

Ajarn quote:

You can show nothing to show me wrong, can you? Just throw stones, it seems. Whatever opinion you want agreement with will be found with someone, and, whatever opinion you want dissent to will also be found with someone....

So, maybe you are the one with something to 'get over'

Actually, I already admitted that I am still trying to figure it out. I don't purport to know it all, like you do. If you don't like throwing stones, then don't cast the first one. The only thing that I need to get over are attitudes like yours, which seem to suggest that your questions are the only ones worth asking - or not, as the case may be.

Whatever. Back to the topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay, you've got that off your chest, now stop your crying, son

[kat]

Kat,

I know a few guys who couldn't care less about their kids in western countries, just walk away, no support nothing, there are other guys I know who need to be kept away from their kids for their own well being & others who would walk on hot coals for them & see their kids as often as possible. I think it's down to the individual & how important they view thier children. A lot of thai men leave their wives & kids & a lot don't. I know one thai guy who is raising the half farang child of his thai wife after the farang husband pissed off back to Europe leaving the wife & child destitute. All of these deadbeat losers deserve to be jailed, regardless of what nationality they are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Boo, I tried to respond to you earlier, but got thrown offline.

I agree with you. But in western cultures, these men are recognized as deadbeat losers, and there are laws to deal with them. I know that there are norms and variations in every cultural context. That is a given. I'm just trying to distinguish between the norms and variations here.

Chonabot QUOTE:

I have several Asian friends here in the UK ( Sri Lankan , Japanese , Indian ) who all told me , when I adopted Andy , that it would be impossible for them to do this.

Religions/Culture apart , they all expressed disgust at bringing up another mans child.

Not Thai culture , yet not a million miles apart.

Is this male pride? , is it ancient ways ?

It is one thing for sure - Very Sad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I've heard the same thing as well, Chonabot.

Edited January 26, 2005 by kat

[kat]

Ajarn quote:

You can show nothing to show me wrong, can you? Just throw stones, it seems. Whatever opinion you want agreement with will be found with someone, and, whatever opinion you want dissent to will also be found with someone....

So, maybe you are the one with something to 'get over'

Actually, I already admitted that I am still trying to figure it out. I don't purport to know it all, like you do. If you don't like throwing stones, then don't cast the first one. The only thing that I need to get over are attitudes like yours, which seem to suggest that your questions are the only ones worth asking - or not, as the case may be.

Whatever. Back to the topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay, you've got that off your chest, now stop your crying, son

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you talking to yourself? I don't really know who you are addressing here.

[bina]

kat, it could be cultural or economic or both:

most of the guys that are thai workers that i speak to (mostly issan types) in israel feel that it is wierd that my ex gets the kids two days a week plus every other weekend, and that we have to agree on most aspects of their education and or health care (we live on same kibbutz) ...

many of the men told me i should just get remarried and even leave the kids w/grandparents if my supposed new husband to be was to live somewhere else.... several said that i could go work and leave kids w/grandparents.... no-one suggested leave them with dad....and most felt that if i were to remarry it would be 'healthier' for my oldest daughter to stay w/grandparents (fear of abuse maybe like in other posts)...

i think that maybe we, westerners, 'think too much' as the thai say, and make mountains out of molehills as u pointed out about custody cases.... to the guys here, it was obvious that if divorced, the man is 'out' and probably no contact w/kids as 'visiting rights' etc for the benefit of the kids....

dealing with an other man's kids, well, age of kids as well as gender may be factors: baby may be more 'accepted' by man where as may see 17 yr old boy as threat to himslef (viaing for affection attention of mother); or opposite, baby demands attention man wants....

some may be just male genetic instinct (kid not my genes, so dont want to protect/nurture) and this has been artificially re -adjusted in western society to the point of extremism....israeli men mostly want to have at least one kid of their own w/new wife (the genetic thing again..)

this of course is all surmise..and based on 100-200 migrant workers from similar back grounds but still .. but very interesting none the less as i try to figure out how these women whose men live here, deal with everything, what happens when father comes back??? what role if at all in child rearing?? mother does all (or grandparents)