Arrest Warrants Issued For 14 Red Shirt Leaders And Thaksin

[Old Man River]

I don't have to read papers and articles by the likes of ... Instead, I base my view of the April 2006 election violation from discussions with some of the directors of P-Net. You get a much better view of things when you talk with the people/organizations directly involved.

Yes, of course, an "independent organization"...

The last time i spoke with one of PNET's parent organisation's member from Poll Watch, he tried to convince me that the PAD is an entirely peaceful organization, and that i should watch ASTV if i want to be informed about Thai politics. Of course he pointed out that he is perfectly neutral, not taking sides at all...

...I guess you get the idea.

So, excuse me if i prefer to inform myself from the papers and articles by known and respected analysts, most of them who are ardent Thaksin opponents, yet not blinded by ideology that they excuse the even more undemocratic actions by his fanatic rabble rousing opponents.

The bottom line is that, as it relates to what we are discussing, it was P-Net's observers that were on the ground watching (i.e. they were there). Your respected analysts can only guess about what they think might have been. You can stick with those who talk about things they did not see. I prefer eye witnesses.

[justanothercybertosser]

The bottom line is that, as it relates to what we are discussing, it was P-Net's observers that were on the ground watching (i.e. they were there). Your respected analysts can only guess about what they think might have been. You can stick with those who talk about things they did not see. I prefer eye witnesses.

The problem here is when the parent organization has a clear political slant, which it has clearly displayed. That discredits their findings and interpretation of events. In simple terms - PNET/Pollwatch as an organization is not trustworthy anymore.

The sad bottom line is, that trustworthy sources are harder to find than ever in this poisoned and radicalized political climate. The few non-partisan sources (some i have cited) are automatically character assassinated (especially by the PAD and their many affiliates, both open and hidden) as soon as they criticize yellow. Known Thaksin opponents when they don't tow the yellow line are accused of having taken money from Thaksin and even worse. We have a climate of fear now worse than under Thaksin. Of course the good members of PNET/Pollwatch won't feel this, as they have made their political stand known.

I would advise you to extend your sources to some of the names i mentioned, and listen what they have to say about the present political situation, and how we got to this point.

[sriracha john]

Everything is always "worse than it was with Thaksin"... whether its democracy or corruption or freedom of the press or the complete breakdown of society with a pending civil war... that we've incessantly been warned of since 2006...

Edited June 15, 2009 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

meanwhile, back on topic...

Thaksin Phones in to His Supporters in Udon Thani

Former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra phoned-in to speak to supporters during a rally in Udon Thani province yesterday.

The Red-Shirt group in Udon Thani province held a rally at Tung Sri Muang Park in the province yesterday to clarify accusations against its members.

The claims stem from the anti-government demonstration that took place in Bangkok in mid-April. Joining the rally were core red-shirt group leader Jatuporn Prompan, the Love Udon Thani Group, and red-shirt supporters in the province.

At about 2pm, the exiled Thaksin Shinawatra made a direct call to the mobile phone of Wichien Kawkam, Pheu Thai MP from the province.

Thaksin said he is in the desert and in the country with the highest building in the world.

He stated that everything in the country that he is staying in is flourishing.

He commented on democracy in the country, saying that the democracy is not made in the public's interest.

Thaksin also expressed his gratitude toward those who have been supporting him and said he is strong and healthy now and thanked Kwanchai Pripana, the President of Love Udon Thani Group for organizing the event yesterday.

-- Tan Network 2009-06-13

[sriracha john]

Isn't Red Shirt Leader Jatuporn out on a bail currently with a cease and desist order as one of the bail conditions?

Edited June 15, 2009 by sriracha john

[Plus]

non-partisan sources

Why the sources must be non-partisan?

What if one of the sides is correct, then your sources, by your own requirement, must support wrong points of view, just to be seen as non-partisan and unbiased.

[justanothercybertosser]

non-partisan sources

Why the sources must be non-partisan?

What if one of the sides is correct, then your sources, by your own requirement, must support wrong points of view, just to be seen as non-partisan and unbiased.

That is a fallacy.

Try to think again.

[Old Man River]

The bottom line is that, as it relates to what we are discussing, it was P-Net's observers that were on the ground watching (i.e. they were there). Your respected analysts can only guess about what they think might have been. You can stick with those who talk about things they did not see. I prefer eye witnesses.

The problem here is when the parent organization has a clear political slant, which it has clearly displayed. That discredits their findings and interpretation of events. In simple terms - PNET/Pollwatch as an organization is not trustworthy anymore.

The sad bottom line is, that trustworthy sources are harder to find than ever in this poisoned and radicalized political climate. The few non-partisan sources (some i have cited) are automatically character assassinated (especially by the PAD and their many affiliates, both open and hidden) as soon as they criticize yellow. Known Thaksin opponents when they don't tow the yellow line are accused of having taken money from Thaksin and even worse. We have a climate of fear now worse than under Thaksin. Of course the good members of PNET/Pollwatch won't feel this, as they have made their political stand known.

I would advise you to extend your sources to some of the names i mentioned, and listen what they have to say about the present political situation, and how we got to this point.

While you are entitled to your opinion, I think you are misunderstanding what P-Net is. For the record, I have no problem with the analysts you mention. I didn't dismiss them. I read them myself. However, when direct information is available from an organization I trust, I prefer this as a source.

I know you will be surprised, but P-Net is an apolitical organization. However, it is comprised of individuals, and individuals have their own views of politics, just as you are entitled to your own views. Some of these people you don't agree with. Some I don't agree with. Still, as an organization, P-Net remains apolitical and are one of the good guys. We need more NGO's like them in Thailand.

I will give this case in point. You have said that P-Net "is staffed by PAD supporters, has been closely allied with PAD, and their members have been going around lobbying on their and the Democrat's behalf." This is your direct quote. Given your views of P-Net, you would expect that they would be pro-military. Even more so, you would expect this since one of their senior officers is a retired Supreme Commander of the Military. Bangkok Pundit has criticized P-Net in the past. What can be more convincing that this:

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2007/08/...elmt-p-net.html

The more you look into P-Net as an independent organization, the more you will like them. However, if you are going to judge P-Net by some of the views of the individuals who work with them, you will never understand.

[hammered]

According to TOC/TAN BJT are pushing complaints against PTP over stating Thaksin was their leader in the Sakhon Nakhon byelection.

It seems things are hotting up in that province. It should be a PTP shoe in but if (and it must be a big if) BJT can take it PTP will face big problems holding even some of their upper Isaan MPs. Newin's clout is pretty much in the lower Isaan. No holds are barred in this contest and after all the accusations PTP play the Thaksin card. Interesting. This is also the second time BJT has pushed what could be disolution buittons. A disolution means MPs once again get to chose party and once again money and promises have to be bandied around.

[sriracha john]

Revoke Jakrapob's passport: Democrats

The ruling Democrat Party has urged Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya to revoke the passport of red-shirt leader Jakrapob Penkair to prevent him from using any foreign country as a launch pad against the government.

Party spokesman Buranat Samutharak said it would consult with Kasit when he returned from the United States.

Fugitive Jakrapob, whose whereabouts are unknown, has said via international media that the red-shirts may very well turn from peaceful struggle to insurgency.

Jakrapob, a former minister at the Prime Minister's Office, is charged with lese majeste and has been missing since the Songkran Day rioting.

Jakrapob case postponed to July 17

The prosecution on Monday again deferred a decision whether to indict former PM's Office Minister and fugitive from justice Jakrapob Penkair on a charge of lese majeste. The decision, due Monday, was put off until July 17.

The Director-General of the Criminal Litigation Department, Kaiyasit Pissawongprakan, said prosecutors handling the case had not received results of an additional examination of the translation of Jakrapob's speech to the foreign correspondents club and additional witness testimony from police.

Since the prosecution had not made the decision, no arrest warrant would be issued yet in this case. Jakrapob is alleged to have committed lese majeste in remarks to the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand (FCCT) on Aug 29, 2007. A leader of the pro-Thaksin United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship, he fled the country after the Songkran riots this year to escape arrest on charges of instigating violence.

Continued:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/1460...oned-to-july-17

-- Bangkok Post 2009-06-15

[justanothercybertosser]

I know you will be surprised, but P-Net is an apolitical organization. However, it is comprised of individuals, and individuals have their own views of politics, just as you are entitled to your own views. Some of these people you don't agree with. Some I don't agree with. Still, as an organization, P-Net remains apolitical and are one of the good guys. We need more NGO's like them in Thailand.

And on this previous link bangkokpundit has criticised PNET:

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2007/07/...l-p-net-do.html

And no, it is not about being "one of the good guys".

PNET/Pollwatch as an organisation has supported PAD and their aims, which is clearly visible in their statement on the Oct. 7 violence, which almost completely ignores documented PAD violence against Police. This report has stated that PAD is a "nonviolent" organisation, even though by that time violence used by PAD has been proven beyond any doubt. This is not a apolitical organization, as you claim, but one of the many so called "independent organisations" that have decided to support PAD, while only nominally declaring their neutrality.

PNET at one incident has not supported the military, while having been very quiet at the military coup, only shows that their loyalties are rather diffuse, especially towards democratic principles.

They question here seems to be that you trust them, and i have learned that i cannot trust them. Actually, presently, there is not one single such organization left here in Thailand that i can trust, and that is because their members have decided to follow their personal political views and not the aims of those organizations, and used their influence as members of these organisations to further partisan aims.

What Thailand needs is not more such NGO's, but a structural change in society and politics. Too many overlapping loyalties resulting from patronage networks have weakened all instututions. Unless this is not done, the downward spiral will continue.

[Plus]

non-partisan sources

Why the sources must be non-partisan?

What if one of the sides is correct, then your sources, by your own requirement, must support wrong points of view, just to be seen as non-partisan and unbiased.

That is a fallacy.

Try to think again.

Pnet entry form that BP blog is a perfect example. When they joined the boycott of 2006 elections they stated what they thought was a right thing to do. You accuse them of partisanship and bias for that because PAD and Democrats held the same opions.

According to you logic, they must disagree with PAD to be a trustworthy source. According to my logic they must keep their integrity and state what they think to be truly trustworthy, not to constantly position themselves in relation to any other party stance.

It's your fallacy to believe that the truth must lie in between. If you think of it - that's the position that people can manipulate by creating outrageous ideas to shift the median. It works, the public pshyche is that there's no smoke without fire, they'll accept any range of opinions, and then someone like you will jump in and claim that truth must be right in the middle, an imaginary place that has been effecitvely shifted.

Truth exists on its own and trustworthy sources stick to it, or at least to what they believe it is.

[animatic]

More likely it is a weakening of the long standing patronage networks,

that is giving rise to a radiating series of power vacuums.

Thaksin gobbled up so many into his hands, that when he lost control,

the lines of power fell into too many incompetent hands, lacking vision and ability.

And several new variations of the old school characters with equaly inflated egos

are trying to fill those vacuums for their own ends.

Newin being an archtype.

[justanothercybertosser]

Pnet entry form that BP blog is a perfect example. When they joined the boycott of 2006 elections they stated what they thought was a right thing to do. You accuse them of partisanship and bias for that because PAD and Democrats held the same opions.

Thaksin was within his legal and constitutional right to call snap elections. That is a fact.

One may not like his decision, especially preempting possible defections from his party with that move. Those are opinions.

Democrats deciding to boycott the elections is dubious, but by cleverly circumventing the laws they were within the legal framework. It is my opinion that they have with this decision they have used a loophole of the law, and that way acted not democratically.

By joining this boycott PNET/Pollwatch has taken sides in a political conflict (a fact), has overstepped its function as an apolitical watchdog (a fact), and is not a credible source anymore. And this is an educated opinion based on carefuly taking all available facts under consideration and reaching a conclusion.

[justanothercybertosser]

And several new variations of the old school characters with equaly inflated egos

are trying to fill those vacuums for their own ends.

Newin being an archtype.

You can add Suthep and Abhsit as well to that list.

[Ricardo]

Thaksin was within his legal and constitutional right to call snap elections. That is a fact.

One may not like his decision, especially preempting possible defections from his party with that move. Those are opinions.

Democrats deciding to boycott the elections is dubious, but by cleverly circumventing the laws they were within the legal framework. It is my opinion that they have with this decision they have used a loophole of the law, and that way acted not democratically.

I guess that one man's "loophole of the law" is another man's "legal and constitutional right", wouldn't you agree ?

And several new variations of the old school characters with equaly inflated egos

are trying to fill those vacuums for their own ends.

Newin being an archtype.

You can add Suthep and Abhsit as well to that list.

Concur about Newin, but why do you consider Abhisit, to be as dirty as the old-time provincial politicians ?

[animatic]

Thaksin was within his legal and constitutional right to call snap elections. That is a fact.

One may not like his decision, especially preempting possible defections from his party with that move. Those are opinions.

Democrats deciding to boycott the elections is dubious, but by cleverly circumventing the laws they were within the legal framework. It is my opinion that they have with this decision they have used a loophole of the law, and that way acted not democratically.

I guess that one man's "loophole of the law" is another man's "legal and constitutional right", wouldn't you agree ?

And several new variations of the old school characters with equally inflated egos

are trying to fill those vacuums for their own ends.

Newin being an archtype.

You can add Suthep and Abhsit as well to that list.

Concur about Newin, but why do you consider Abhisit, to be as dirty as the old-time provincial politicians ?

Considering how pissed off F. of Newin are at not getting a walk through for the pet graft projects,

it really looks like Abhisit is breaking the mold in many ways, just by TRYING to hold out and stymie their game plan.

If a loophole is in the law, that just means the Dems studied the law enough to use it for what it actually says. Fair play.

And a glaring contrast to say the Samak Cabinet that couldn't even READ the constitution correct enough

to prevent Nopadom getting canned, and the whole cabinet facing charges for avoidable foreign affairs snafus..

[justanothercybertosser]

I guess that one man's "loophole of the law" is another man's "legal and constitutional right", wouldn't you agree ?

Concur about Newin, but why do you consider Abhisit, to be as dirty as the old-time provincial politicians ?

Well, considering that much of what Thaksin was accused of was in the greyzone of the law, or if not breaking the law, was indeed not exactly not in the spirit of democracy, his opponents doing similar makes them and their supporters hypocrites, somehow. Wouldn't you agree?

At least Thaksin did not avoid elections...

I consider Abhsit in the same fold because he plays the same game that Chuan played - make a nice face while the actual power is in the hands of a godfather type of politician lurking in the background- now Suthep - a man very similar to Newin in all aspects.

[sriracha john]

Prosecutors Postpone Decision on Indictment of Red-Shirt Leader

Public prosecutors have postponed the decision whether to indict a red-shirt leader for lese majeste to July 17 after they have received no documents on the translation of his controversial speech at the Foreign Correspondents Club.

The decision aims to give time for the verification on the translated version of the English statement by core leader of the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship, Jakrapob Penkair, and the interrogation of more eye-witnesses as requested by the accused.

Public prosecutors have not received any documents concerning the translation of Jakrapob's English speech from investigators.

Director-General of the Criminal Litigation Department, Kayasit Pissawongprakarn, stated the issuance of an arrest warrant for Jakrapob, who fled overseas after the April's riot, is still not needed as public prosecutors remain undecided whether to indict him while the review of the case has yet to be finalized.

Kayasit said if public prosecutors resolves to launch their prosecution and Jakrapob fails to show up, related agencies will seek an arrest warrant for him.

The case stemmed from an address he made at the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand on August 29, 2007 with the content deemed as possible lese majeste.

-- Tan Network 2009-06-15

[Plus]

By joining this boycott PNET/Pollwatch has taken sides in a political conflict (a fact), has overstepped its function as an apolitical watchdog (a fact), and is not a credible source anymore.

I say they stood up for the spirit of democracy, which is their duty as a watchdog.

I think it's falling on death ears, but for the third time - they cannot shy away and keep silent just because their opinions are the same as of some other party. If that is what needs to be done to win your approval in the name of non-partisanship - you can shove it up yours.

"Facts" are not determined solely but what is in the lawbooks, especially when you conveniently call them loopholes when they don't go your way.

[animatic]

I guess that one man's "loophole of the law" is another man's "legal and constitutional right", wouldn't you agree ?

Concur about Newin, but why do you consider Abhisit, to be as dirty as the old-time provincial politicians ?

Well, considering that much of what Thaksin was accused of was in the greyzone of the law, or if not breaking the law, was indeed not exactly not in the spirit of democracy, his opponents doing similar makes them and their supporters hypocrites, somehow. Wouldn't you agree?

At least Thaksin did not avoid elections...

I consider Abhsit in the same fold because he plays the same game that Chuan played - make a nice face while the actual power is in the hands of a godfather type of politician lurking in the background- now Suthep - a man very similar to Newin in all aspects.

And so Thaksin, in trying to displace the 'actual power' and take it all for himself would be an improvement.

He got 'displaced for his efforts at gaining total control and hence the mess we have now.

There is a grey zone reading and there is a clear reading, the Dems got it correct,

and no charges are filed, Thaksin has a laundery list pertaining to his

flirting with the blacker side of grey repeatedly.

Suthep is likely the a old school political dinosaur similar to many,

but since the system is still in place, Abhisit is well advised to have such a dono at his shoulder to

navigate the old school mines being laid for him.

Is it good that this is needed, no,

is it logical that this is needed, pragmatic, nessesary, yes;

If you can't hold on to office in REAL WORLD

conditions you can't effect ANY change.

[hammered]

I know you will be surprised, but P-Net is an apolitical organization. However, it is comprised of individuals, and individuals have their own views of politics, just as you are entitled to your own views. Some of these people you don't agree with. Some I don't agree with. Still, as an organization, P-Net remains apolitical and are one of the good guys. We need more NGO's like them in Thailand.

And on this previous link bangkokpundit has criticised PNET:

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2007/07/...l-p-net-do.html

And no, it is not about being "one of the good guys".

PNET/Pollwatch as an organisation has supported PAD and their aims, which is clearly visible in their statement on the Oct. 7 violence, which almost completely ignores documented PAD violence against Police. This report has stated that PAD is a "nonviolent" organisation, even though by that time violence used by PAD has been proven beyond any doubt. This is not a apolitical organization, as you claim, but one of the many so called "independent organisations" that have decided to support PAD, while only nominally declaring their neutrality.

PNET at one incident has not supported the military, while having been very quiet at the military coup, only shows that their loyalties are rather diffuse, especially towards democratic principles.

They question here seems to be that you trust them, and i have learned that i cannot trust them. Actually, presently, there is not one single such organization left here in Thailand that i can trust, and that is because their members have decided to follow their personal political views and not the aims of those organizations, and used their influence as members of these organisations to further partisan aims.

What Thailand needs is not more such NGO's, but a structural change in society and politics. Too many overlapping loyalties resulting from patronage networks have weakened all instututions. Unless this is not done, the downward spiral will continue.

But where will a structural change come from? There is not a single poltical movement in Thailand that isnt filled with those from the patronage networks. Admittedly there a couple of groupings of these peopel now fighting it out to see who gets to have the the cake and eat it but that is only about power and not about any form of radical change.

[justanothercybertosser]

But where will a structural change come from? There is not a single poltical movement in Thailand that isnt filled with those from the patronage networks. Admittedly there a couple of groupings of these peopel now fighting it out to see who gets to have the the cake and eat it but that is only about power and not about any form of radical change.

These changes obviously will not happen overnight. It takes time. "Radical change" is anyhow the last thing society would need.

But the pessimism you display here i cannot share.

There is a growing awareness in many sectors of society that the system as it is cannot continue. Especially within the Red Shirt movement are many factions that do address these issues on their stages and in their other communication networks. It is somewhat besides the point that many of their leaders and sub-leaders are deeply tainted by patronage and corruption as well. What is important that expectations under the people are raised. That is a beginning - what has previously been almost only talked about in intellectual circles has now moved into the general population.

People who only rely on reporting by traditional medias do not get much of a picture, i am afraid. Rarely do i see articles or reports that there are Red Shirt meetings all over the country on a weekly, of not daily base. Have you read anywhere, that, for example, yesterday there were at least three Red Shirt meetings in the provinces? Especially these smaller meetings ignored by the media are important as they happen in the provinces, and attendants carry the messages directly into the villages. One may decry, and partly justly so, that many of those speeches concentrate mostly on Thaksin, but there are also topics dealing with social justice, equal opportunities and similar talked about.

Either the government and its backers realize that they have to address these issues as well instead of belittling these people, and constantly confronting them, or there will be changes coming more violently. It is just a matter of time. Democratization of Thailand is a historical force.

Edited June 16, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[sriracha john]

whether its democracy or corruption or freedom of the press or the complete breakdown of society with a pending civil war... that we've incessantly been warned of since 2006...

as demonstrated in 2007...

We all know that war is going to come, and that is is going to be terrible, far more terrible than things are now. It is just a matter of time.

and the band drones on with the same tune...

there will be changes coming more violently. It is just a matter of time.

Edited June 16, 2009 by sriracha john

[Old Man River]

I know you will be surprised, but P-Net is an apolitical organization. However, it is comprised of individuals, and individuals have their own views of politics, just as you are entitled to your own views. Some of these people you don't agree with. Some I don't agree with. Still, as an organization, P-Net remains apolitical and are one of the good guys. We need more NGO's like them in Thailand.

PNET at one incident has not supported the military, while having been very quiet at the military coup, only shows that their loyalties are rather diffuse, especially towards democratic principles.

Your comment above shows that you still are not clear on what Peoples Network for Election (P-Net) does. I brought them up as a source relating to the April 2006 election only because of your comments contra to the Constitutional Court's decision. Since P-Net supplied the proof, in this case, it is a valid source.

This NGO observes elections and national referendums. That is all they do. It is staffed, primarily with approx. 4,000 hard working volunteers. If there is not an election or referendum, they are not involved. There was no election with the military coup, hence, P-Net was not involved. There was no election relating to the PAD's actions, hence, P-Net was not involved. Expecting them to comment on these events is an error. They won't. However, if there is a national election or referendum, such as the referendum conducted by the military as it relates to the 2007 constitution, P-Net will be involved. In this case, they blew the whistle on the military. In the case of the 2006 national election, they blew the whistle on the Election Commission. This is their role. No more and no less.

[Insight]

Another post from justanothercybertosser before the Songkran riots:

H90, There is no doubt, whatsoever, that many of the Reds are being paid and bused in by organizers. Anyone living in Bangkok who travels the city can see the buses. In one, relatively small area, I counted 74 large buses last week.

What I thought was interesting was the amount of people who come from Bangkok and surrounding areas. This isn't the "army" of hard working farmers that the Red's organizers want to make it out to be.

Absolute rubbish.

The Udon Lovers, for example, held a large fundraiser on April 4, in which people from the area donated large amounts so that buses could be paid for. More people wanted to go than transport was available. People from these areas have financed their trip to the protests themselves.

More and more middle class people from Bangkok have joined the rallies, and if you listen to the speeches on the stage, the organizers of the Red Shirts have pointed this out on numerous occasions.

The Red Shirt movement is a mass movement, with a now highly organized communication and mobilization network. If the yellow ideologues (including the ones in Democrat Party disguise) do not realize this fact, and draw the necessary conclusion, meaning that substantial negotiations are to be initiated soon, Thailand will implode around their heads, maybe even some time during this year.

Make what you will...

[Old Man River]

But where will a structural change come from? There is not a single poltical movement in Thailand that isnt filled with those from the patronage networks. Admittedly there a couple of groupings of these peopel now fighting it out to see who gets to have the the cake and eat it but that is only about power and not about any form of radical change.

These changes obviously will not happen overnight. It takes time. "Radical change" is anyhow the last thing society would need.

But the pessimism you display here i cannot share.

There is a growing awareness in many sectors of society that the system as it is cannot continue. Especially within the Red Shirt movement are many factions that do address these issues on their stages and in their other communication networks. It is somewhat besides the point that many of their leaders and sub-leaders are deeply tainted by patronage and corruption as well. What is important that expectations under the people are raised. That is a beginning - what has previously been almost only talked about in intellectual circles has now moved into the general population.

People who only rely on reporting by traditional medias do not get much of a picture, i am afraid. Rarely do i see articles or reports that there are Red Shirt meetings all over the country on a weekly, of not daily base. Have you read anywhere, that, for example, yesterday there were at least three Red Shirt meetings in the provinces? Especially these smaller meetings ignored by the media are important as they happen in the provinces, and attendants carry the messages directly into the villages. One may decry, and partly justly so, that many of those speeches concentrate mostly on Thaksin, but there are also topics dealing with social justice, equal opportunities and similar talked about.

Either the government and its backers realize that they have to address these issues as well instead of belittling these people, and constantly confronting them, or there will be changes coming more violently. It is just a matter of time. Democratization of Thailand is a historical force.

We had this discussion about a year ago. There is no Social Democratic Party in Thailand. In fact, there is nothing even close. Until there is anything remotely similar, I agree with Hammered and remain equally pessimistic.

By the way, I am happy you are back on TV. While we will never agree on anything, I always respect your opinions as usually your comments are well thought out (except, of course, on P-Net ).

[Journalist]

We all know that war is going to come, and that is is going to be terrible, far more terrible than things are now. It is just a matter of time.

and the band drones on with the same tune...

there will be changes coming more violently. It is just a matter of time.

Ha ha. Your point is well made and understood, but I think it reflects more on you John that you have oodles of spare time and the inclination to do investigative comparative studies like this !! . Thats valuable Singha time gone forever.......

[sriracha john]

But where will a structural change come from? There is not a single poltical movement in Thailand that isnt filled with those from the patronage networks. Admittedly there a couple of groupings of these peopel now fighting it out to see who gets to have the the cake and eat it but that is only about power and not about any form of radical change.

These changes obviously will not happen overnight. It takes time. "Radical change" is anyhow the last thing society would need.

But the pessimism you display here i cannot share.

There is a growing awareness in many sectors of society that the system as it is cannot continue. Especially within the Red Shirt movement are many factions that do address these issues on their stages and in their other communication networks. It is somewhat besides the point that many of their leaders and sub-leaders are deeply tainted by patronage and corruption as well. What is important that expectations under the people are raised. That is a beginning - what has previously been almost only talked about in intellectual circles has now moved into the general population.

People who only rely on reporting by traditional medias do not get much of a picture, i am afraid. Rarely do i see articles or reports that there are Red Shirt meetings all over the country on a weekly, of not daily base. Have you read anywhere, that, for example, yesterday there were at least three Red Shirt meetings in the provinces? Especially these smaller meetings ignored by the media are important as they happen in the provinces, and attendants carry the messages directly into the villages. One may decry, and partly justly so, that many of those speeches concentrate mostly on Thaksin, but there are also topics dealing with social justice, equal opportunities and similar talked about.

Either the government and its backers realize that they have to address these issues as well instead of belittling these people, and constantly confronting them, or there will be changes coming more violently. It is just a matter of time. Democratization of Thailand is a historical force.

We had this discussion about a year ago.

wonder which of the ID's he was using then as it was post-Colpyat and pre-justanothercybertosser

[sriracha john]

We all know that war is going to come, and that is is going to be terrible, far more terrible than things are now. It is just a matter of time.

and the band drones on with the same tune...

there will be changes coming more violently. It is just a matter of time.

Ha ha. Your point is well made and understood, but I think it reflects more on you John that you have oodles of spare time and the inclination to do investigative comparative studies like this !! . Thats valuable Singha time gone forever.......

Actually it's simple and quick to work Thaivisa's system of recall (which is much better than my own).

Far less effort than generating unique email addresses for each of more than 30 banned ID's.

Edited June 16, 2009 by sriracha john