When Both Parents Are Foreigners.....

[Snowbird1]

I have been reading about the rules of legitimating children in Thailand when couples are unmarried. I wanted to know if these same rules apply when the two people involved are foreigners? In this case the mother is Canadian and the father is French. The father's name is on the Birth Certificate. Would anyone know the answer to this question? Thanks in advance.

Edited April 18, 2009 by Snowbird1

[Mario2008]

It is irrgegardless, as long as the birth is in Thailand.

Also you should contact your embassy (both of them), to see how you can legitimise the child under your own national law. Most countries will however regocnise a legitimisation that is done under Thai law.

[Snowbird1]

It is irrgegardless, as long as the birth is in Thailand.

Also you should contact your embassy (both of them), to see how you can legitimise the child under your own national law. Most countries will however regocnise a legitimisation that is done under Thai law.

Thank you so much for your quick response. So, according to Thai law, the mother has sole custody of the child, unless the father has legitimized the child. And just having his name on the birth certificate does not legitimize baby. Am I correct? Any other info you can give me on this?

[Mario2008]

Correct.

The child is legitimised by the father if the person named as the father on the BC is also the person who registered the birth himself at the amphur/district office. (The fathers name will appear twice on the BC).

After birth the child can be legitimised by a subsequent marriage of the mother and father or by consent of the mother and the child. For this last possibility the child must be 7 years old.

Your own country might allow for different options of legitimisation, that could be important for the nationality question. It might also be possible to do a fathership action by the mother or on behalf of the child. The court will then esteblish who is the father. Normaly it is done to get alimony, but sometimes also to get the nationality of the father. I don't know if Thai law allows this kind of action.

[Snowbird1]

I have heard there is a law which comes into effect when both parents are foreigners, which states that the laws of the country

of the birth mother must be used to determine custody of the child. Do you know anything of this? Thanks again for any help you can give.

[Mario2008]

I have heard there is a law which comes into effect when both parents are foreigners, which states that the laws of the country

of the birth mother must be used to determine custody of the child. Do you know anything of this? Thanks again for any help you can give.

I don't know of any such Thai law. You might want to check with a law firm, like Isaan Lawyers. You find their banner at the top of the page.

[Snowbird1]

I have heard there is a law which comes into effect when both parents are foreigners, which states that the laws of the country

of the birth mother must be used to determine custody of the child. Do you know anything of this? Thanks again for any help you can give.

I don't know of any such Thai law. You might want to check with a law firm, like Isaan Lawyers. You find their banner at the top of the page.

Thank you so much for your help. We will be checking with one of the Isaan lawyers. Thanks again...

[ScienceGuy]

You can legitimize the child. If the mother isn't available or doesn't want to cooperate, you can do it through the courts.

[Snowbird1]

You can legitimize the child. If the mother isn't available or doesn't want to cooperate, you can do it through the courts.

Along the same lines, how would you go about checking to see if the father has already legitimized the child?

Edited April 20, 2009 by Snowbird1

[Mario2008]

You can legitimize the child. If the mother isn't available or doesn't want to cooperate, you can do it through the courts.

Along the same lines, how would you go about checking to see if the father has already legitimized the child?

Look at the birth certificate. it should list 4 names:

- child

- mother

- father

- person registering the child

The child is legitimised if the name of the father on the BC is the same as the name of the person named has having done the registering.

[Snowbird1]

You can legitimize the child. If the mother isn't available or doesn't want to cooperate, you can do it through the courts.

Along the same lines, how would you go about checking to see if the father has already legitimized the child?

Look at the birth certificate. it should list 4 names:

- child

- mother

- father

- person registering the childb

The child is legitimised if the name of the father on the BC is the same as the name of the person named has having done the registering.

Ok, here is the problem in a nutshell. The relationship between mother and father is done. The mother would like to go back to Canada and she needs a permission to travel letter from the father OR something that says she has sole custody of the child. The father's name is only on the birth certificate once, not twice. She has contacted a lawyer who thinks the father may have rights based on just the name on the b/c but is not sure. He will be checking with a thai law specialist so he says and is getting back to the mother with the information as soon as he knows. Has anyone encountered this kind of situation before? Any suggestions? Do you know if a lawyer would write a letter for the mother saying based on thai law, she has custody of the child? Seems simple, but this has turned into a nightmare. The father will not give his permission for the mother to leave with the child. She is not legally allowed to work in Thailand so this opens up a whole new set of problems. Can anyone give us any idea of what should or could be done? Any help or info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Mario2008]

The father can not stop the mother taking the child out of the country. In all likely hood he is not even the legal father. I'm not sure how to proof one has sole costudy, but it is probably done with a letter from the ampur. Have your friend inquire there.

But as it is, there is no Thai law stopping your friend from just leaving Thailand with her child.

[Snowbird1]

The father can not stop the mother taking the child out of the country. In all likely hood he is not even the legal father. I'm not sure how to proof one has sole costudy, but it is probably done with a letter from the ampur. Have your friend inquire there.

But as it is, there is no Thai law stopping your friend from just leaving Thailand with her child.

Thanks so much for all of your help with this matter. I will indeed tell my friend to enquire at the amphur. Does it make a difference which amphur she goes to? The child was born in Phuket so is it necessary to go to the amphur there or could my friend go to any amphur. Again, thanks for any help.bb

[Mario2008]

The father can not stop the mother taking the child out of the country. In all likely hood he is not even the legal father. I'm not sure how to proof one has sole costudy, but it is probably done with a letter from the ampur. Have your friend inquire there.

But as it is, there is no Thai law stopping your friend from just leaving Thailand with her child.

Thanks so much for all of your help with this matter. I will indeed tell my friend to enquire at the amphur. Does it make a difference which amphur she goes to? The child was born in Phuket so is it necessary to go to the amphur there or could my friend go to any amphur. Again, thanks for any help.bb

Not sure about that, but no problem in trying at the nearest amphur.

Your friend can have a look at the Thai law (English translation here:

http://www.thailawonline.com/images/thaici...l%20code%20.pdf

Page 16 and following: section 1546 etc.

[GuestHouse]

We need to be very careful with attributing sole custody as also having rights to travel, they are not quite the same thing.

While I suspect that Thai law, or more precisely the Thai legal system, would not make a distinction, it is very likely that (in this case) Canada/France would.

Thailand, Canada and France are all signatories to the Hague Convention governing the transport of minors across international boarders - The Hague Convention does not only address custody, it also addresses the rights of the Child. One of the rights might be the right to have access to both parents (A common misunderstanding when discussing access rights is parents start from the position of their own rights to have access to their child - The rights that matter are the rights of the child). Another might be rights to safety, health care etc.

An assumption of parental rights on the basis of Custody by Default is very shaky.

I'd advise anyone facing such an issue to skip right to the law firms dealing with international law. International child custody issues are very complex matters, I would seek expert advice from a lawyer who specializes in this field.

One avenue to consider is addressing the access and rights to travel issue with an aim to placing a stop on a passport of visa being issued until the matter can be sorted out.

As I say, Child Custody by Default is a very shaky idea.

I'd look to challenging the basis and extent of this Custody by Default.

[Mario2008]

As the child is born and staying in Thailand, Thai law applies. When the mother and child go and live in Canada, the father can take action under Canadian law.

[Snowbird1]

We need to be very careful with attributing sole custody as also having rights to travel, they are not quite the same thing.

While I suspect that Thai law, or more precisely the Thai legal system, would not make a distinction, it is very likely that (in this case) Canada/France would.

Thailand, Canada and France are all signatories to the Hague Convention governing the transport of minors across international boarders - The Hague Convention does not only address custody, it also addresses the rights of the Child. One of the rights might be the right to have access to both parents (A common misunderstanding when discussing access rights is parents start from the position of their own rights to have access to their child - The rights that matter are the rights of the child). Another might be rights to safety, health care etc.

An assumption of parental rights on the basis of Custody by Default is very shaky.

I'd advise anyone facing such an issue to skip right to the law firms dealing with international law. International child custody issues are very complex matters, I would seek expert advice from a lawyer who specializes in this field.

One avenue to consider is addressing the access and rights to travel issue with an aim to placing a stop on a passport of visa being issued until the matter can be sorted out.

As I say, Child Custody by Default is a very shaky idea.

I'd look to challenging the basis and extent of this Custody by Default.

Thank you for your input. I know Canada and France are signatories to the Hague Convention but I don't think that Thailand is. Thailand has not signed yet but it is pending. So just a matter of time, I guess.

Yes, this is a bad situation my friend has found herself in. And virtually a prisoner in Thailand. She can leave the country, no problem, but coming into Canada would be the problem. She either needs a permission to travel from the father (and he is not being very nice at the moment so I guess that won't happen) or something that says she has custody of the child. That's what we understand. She is seeing a lawyer at present (one of a few she has seen) and he is getting back to her since even he is unsure of what her position is. Very frustrating.

[Mario2008]

Snowbird, getting into Canada would not be a problem. It is only a rpoblem when one does not have Canadian nationality and need a visa, then one needs to have proper documents for the child, inlcuding permission from the father.

The Canadian government cannot refuse entry to a Canadian national. All she has to do is produce a passport for her and her child.

[Snowbird1]

Snowbird, getting into Canada would not be a problem. It is only a rpoblem when one does not have Canadian nationality and need a visa, then one needs to have proper documents for the child, inlcuding permission from the father.

The Canadian government cannot refuse entry to a Canadian national. All she has to do is produce a passport for her and her child.

Thank you Mario for your help. I do know that the child has a French passport, but no Canadian passport. Embassy there says she needs 2 signatures to get a passport, mother's and father's. And of course he will not sign. The child does, however, have a Canadian citizenship card which proves she is Canadian. We say she should just leave but she is worried about problems in Canada. And she cannot find anyone there who can give her definite answers, one way or the other. She's still waiting to hear from a lawyer she saw there last week.

[Mario2008]

The signature of the father is only required when the fahter has legitimised the child and has costudy. She should just go to the amphur and ask for a letter that she has sole costudy over the child.

Regarding traveling to Canada, a national traveling to Canada dosn't need a Canadian passport. You just need to proof that you are Canadian. The citizenship card is enough for that and the Franch passport can be used to leave Thailand.

This is what the data base of the IATA says:

National Canada (CA) /Residence Thailand (TH)

Destination Canada (CA)

Canada (CA)

Passport required.

- Passport or passport replacing documents issued to nationals

of Canada must be valid on arrival.

- Warning: if departing from the U.S.A.(regardless of any

destination passport exemptions), a valid passport and/or

accepted departure document (TIRULES/R9) is required by

the U.S. immigration authorities.

Passport Exemptions:

- Recommended proof of citizenship, issued to nationals of

Canada, such as:

- - Canadian Birth Certificate; or

- Certificate of Canadian Citizenship.

VISA NOT REQUIRED.

Minors:

- Parent(s) travelling with a child under 18 years are

strongly advised to For details, click here

Additional Information:

- Those claiming to be Canadian citizens, presenting documents

other than a valid Canadian passport will be granted entry

upon arrival only if, following an examination by a Canadian

Border Services Officer, they satisfy the officer that they

are a Canadian Citizen.

- Documents issued to nationals of Canada that do not

incorporate a photograph, should be accompanied by

supporting government issued photo identification (e.g.

driver's licence).

Note that a French national doesn't need a visa to enter Canada if the stay is less then 6 months.

[Mario2008]

The fact that the child has a French passport might mean that the father has ligitimised the child under French law. Maybe also under Canadian law, as the child has proof of Canadian citizenship from the embassy. However, legitimising a child is not the same as having costudy over a child.

The costudy over the child is determined by Thai law, as the child was born here. He doesn't have costudy, as the father didn't legitimise the child under Thai law.

For a canadian passport application for a minor look here: http://www.ppt.gc.ca/form/pdfs/pptc042.pdf

Sole costudy means no signature of the other parent is required!

[Snowbird1]

The signature of the father is only required when the fahter has legitimised the child and has costudy. She should just go to the amphur and ask for a letter that she has sole costudy over the child.

Regarding traveling to Canada, a national traveling to Canada dosn't need a Canadian passport. You just need to proof that you are Canadian. The citizenship card is enough for that and the Franch passport can be used to leave Thailand.

This is what the data base of the IATA says:

National Canada (CA) /Residence Thailand (TH)

Destination Canada (CA)

Canada (CA)

Passport required.

- Passport or passport replacing documents issued to nationals

of Canada must be valid on arrival.

- Warning: if departing from the U.S.A.(regardless of any

destination passport exemptions), a valid passport and/or

accepted departure document (TIRULES/R9) is required by

the U.S. immigration authorities.

Passport Exemptions:

- Recommended proof of citizenship, issued to nationals of

Canada, such as:

- - Canadian Birth Certificate; or

- Certificate of Canadian Citizenship.

VISA NOT REQUIRED.

Minors:

- Parent(s) travelling with a child under 18 years are

strongly advised to For details, click here

Additional Information:

- Those claiming to be Canadian citizens, presenting documents

other than a valid Canadian passport will be granted entry

upon arrival only if, following an examination by a Canadian

Border Services Officer, they satisfy the officer that they

are a Canadian Citizen.

- Documents issued to nationals of Canada that do not

incorporate a photograph, should be accompanied by

supporting government issued photo identification (e.g.

driver's licence).

Note that a French national doesn't need a visa to enter Canada if the stay is less then 6 months.

Wow, this is so helpful. Thanks so much. So in essence, she can leave with no problem, and enter Canada with no problem as long as she has the proper documents.

[Mario2008]

Yes, let her get a letter from the amphur tomorrow stating she has sole costudy and she is good to go. But even without the letter she should be fine.

[Snowbird1]

Yes, let her get a letter from the amphur tomorrow stating she has sole costudy and she is good to go. But even without the letter she should be fine.

Thanks for all of your advice. This is the first place I've been able to get some straight answers. I think everything is starting to line up now so should be good to go soon.

Thanks again.