Family Fury As Childminder Is Deported 'like Criminal'

[watcher101]

Family fury as childminder is deported 'like criminal'

By Caitrina Cody –

Irish Independent Newspaper - Monday April 20 2009.

THE Thai sister-in-law of an Irish security guard was held in jail and then deported when she arrived in Ireland to mind his daughter.

John Meade, from Tallaght, is married to a Thai woman who is now an Irish citizen, and the couple invited her sister to Ireland to look after 14-month-old Kathaleeya while they worked.

However, Phitsamai Khumnut was arrested in Dublin Airport upon her arrival on Easter Sunday, despite having a valid passport and holiday visa.

She spent the night in Mountjoy Jail, before being deported early next morning. She was told that she will most likely be barred from entering Ireland for the foreseeable future.

The Garda National Immigration Board has denied any wrongdoing and says that proper procedures were followed.

Ms Khumnut (45) was on her way to stay with her sister, Orathai Meade, and her husband for three months so that she could mind their young daughter while they worked.

According to Mr Meade, Ms Khumnut has been treated "like a common criminal".

"Phitsamai doesn't speak English and she had no idea what was happening when immigration officials arrested her and put her in jail. My wife wasn't even allowed to visit her to explain what was going on."

Mrs Meade has worked as a cleaner in Dublin since 2002, and neither she nor her husband can afford to pay for childcare.

Mr Meade said that one year ago they decided to ask Ms Khumnut if she would travel to Ireland to mind their daughter while they worked full time.

"We thought we had the perfect solution," said Mr Meade (38). "Phitsamai was delighted to come and help us out, and we were so happy in the knowledge that we were leaving our daughter in trustworthy hands.

Suspicious

"She has been travelling over for three-month periods on a holiday visa, returning each time before the holiday period elapsed. I know plenty of people who helped relatives to enter the country and stay illegally. We never went down that route," he said.

The family believe that immigration officials are suspicious that Ms Khumnut planned to work illegally because when asked for the purpose of her visit, she replied in broken English that she was here to "mind a child".

But, Mr Meade stressed, she had never received a wage for her help in their home.

"We pay her expenses and give her money so she can have her freedom and get out occasionally, but Phitsamai does not earn a salary here."

A garda spokesman said that it is their policy not to discuss individual cases.

He added that: "An Garda Siochana are happy that proper procedures were adhered to in this case."

[Neeranam]

Why didn't she learn English?

I've been deported and it's no big deal.

[dave111223]

"She has been travelling over for three-month periods on a holiday visa, returning each time before the holiday period elapsed. I know plenty of people who helped relatives to enter the country and stay illegally. We never went down that route," he said.

I don't understand? So this is not actually her first time in the country? But actually she's doing some kind of visa border running?

But, Mr Meade stressed, she had never received a wage for her help in their home.

"We pay her expenses and give her money so she can have her freedom and get out occasionally, but Phitsamai does not earn a salary here."

LOL, "she never received a wage, we just gave her money"

Maybe i should try that one with the tax man "I didn't earn a wage this year, people just gave me some money".

[rgs2001uk]

neither she nor her husband can afford to pay for childcare.

"We pay her expenses and give her money

Something doesnt add up here.

Well done the Irish.

[wasabi]

On the surface this does seem unujust but I get the sense we have not gotten the full story. It seems very strange if she had all the correct paperwork that she would receive such treatment but who knows maybe she did and it's just messed up.

[Old Croc]

Bringing someone in to work as a domestic servant (even a relative) on a tourist visa would be a breach of immigration law in most western countries.

Bet they weren't even paying award rates for this child minding service.

Anyone refused entry at a border is customarily held in custody until their removal back to whence they came. Dramatic language like "thrown into jail" and "deported like a common criminal" is a bit over the top.

Perhaps in future they may find it prudent to train the visitor to state they are there for tourism purposes only if quizzed at an airport.

[Thaddeus]

It seems very strange if she had all the correct paperwork that she would receive such treatment but who knows maybe she did and it's just messed up.

She didn't have the right paperwork to have a job, so she was working illegally.

Nothing strange in getting deported for that at all.

[bkkjames]

It seems very strange if she had all the correct paperwork that she would receive such treatment but who knows maybe she did and it's just messed up.

She didn't have the right paperwork to have a job, so she was working illegally.

Nothing strange in getting deported for that at all.

was she working when she arrived at the border? seems to me that any arrest would be done while she was caught in the act?

[Kitsch22]

It seems very strange if she had all the correct paperwork that she would receive such treatment but who knows maybe she did and it's just messed up.

She didn't have the right paperwork to have a job, so she was working illegally.

Nothing strange in getting deported for that at all.

The authorities seem to have done everything by the book.

The funny thing is that if this lady had made her visa application showing the purpose of her travel as being "Holiday, staying with my sister and her family" and in the financial resources section had declared, "My sister and her husband will provide me with all funds necessary for travel, subsistence and pocket money" she would probably have been entitled to enter perfectly lawfully. If a relative happens to be on holiday at the home of family members, then if that person happens to spend some time looking after that person's nephews and nieces, that does not of itself constitute "employment"

I am convinced that whenever it comes to making a visa application then, unless you have something utterly despicable or completely beyond the pale that must be hidden, the best policy is always to be 100% honest and to be 100% thorough and exhaustive in one's statements and declarations.

[Old Croc]

It seems very strange if she had all the correct paperwork that she would receive such treatment but who knows maybe she did and it's just messed up.

She didn't have the right paperwork to have a job, so she was working illegally.

Nothing strange in getting deported for that at all.

was she working when she arrived at the border? seems to me that any arrest would be done while she was caught in the act?

If a border official is satisfied there is an intention to work in contravention of the visa conditions they can cancel the visa and refuse entry.

[spacefruit]

Mrs Meade has worked as a cleaner in Dublin since 2002, and neither she nor her husband can afford to pay for childcare.

So who pays for the (4?) airtickets (3month visits for a year). Even one trip to Thaialnd is going to be a lot.

However I must sympathize with the cost of white (sorry, Falang) childcare. I was in UK for a month last sumer and spent more in one month than the whole of the rest of the year in Thailand.

The population of western countries all seem to think they are owed something.

If I employ a local nanny here for a two years, she can come with me to UK on a domestic employment visa. Only problem is I havent been able to keep anyone for two years yet!

[bkkjames]

It seems very strange if she had all the correct paperwork that she would receive such treatment but who knows maybe she did and it's just messed up.

She didn't have the right paperwork to have a job, so she was working illegally.

Nothing strange in getting deported for that at all.

was she working when she arrived at the border? seems to me that any arrest would be done while she was caught in the act?

If a border official is satisfied there is an intention to work in contravention of the visa conditions they can cancel the visa and refuse entry.

hmm, not sure it would stand up in court.

if they don't like the look of you and think maybe you might in 10 years time get a parking ticket.

sounds to me like pure stereotyping by some overzealous border official with a chip on his shoulder.

[Thaddeus]

hmm, not sure it would stand up in court.

Bet it would.

[bkkjames]

hmm, not sure it would stand up in court.

Bet it would.

well we will never know, but sounds me like the gal had a legit visa, the border guard assumed she may go onto work illegally. is she some threat to Irish security

so much for being innocent until proven guilty

[p_brownstone]

"She has been travelling over for three-month periods on a holiday visa, returning each time before the holiday period elapsed. I know plenty of people who helped relatives to enter the country and stay illegally. We never went down that route," he said.

[/color][/font]

This is undoubtedly why she was stopped, questioned, detained and eventually deported.

She was a regular visitor and obviously not a Tourist - the basis for her Visa being issued.

She was "working" - even though just for expenses and pocket money.

No reason at all to complain about what happened to her.

I also wonder why the Irish couple could not afford Childcare but could apparently afford her roundtrip Airfare every 3 months plus whatever they were paying her.

Patrick

[Pierrot]

The problem with most European countries is they don’t have the guts to expel illegal immigrants and criminals. Instead they prefer to make life harder to honest people who just want to join their loved one.

Don’t forget, every time you support an illegal immigrant, you make life harder for an honest traveler.

[torrenova]

As I see it she has had a number of previous 3 monthly tourist visas (why not 6 months ?) and she works illegally for her extended family as a child minder. That is the crux, she is an illegal immigrant.

Now if Paddy sorted himself out and got her a working visa and paid her taxes etc. he could probably claim allowances for childcare. Surely that would be cheaper than airfares back and forth every 3 months ?

[spacefruit]

I just remembered, before I gave up trying to take a nanny over to UK for a month, that it was made very clear to me that working, on a tourist visa was illegal. The fact that no pay is given, does not stop it being illegal.

What defines work in a family environment is blurry to say the least. My friend in UK now have to file taxes on their Nanny's.

Imagine, the tax gets collected twice!

Still, Gordons Happy.

BTW To give a nanny £20kpa. she pays about 8k taxes and you have to get that 20k out of taxed income...

I hear Italy has better trade fugures and GDP than UK now, I know I know Off Topic!

[sibeymai]

It seems very strange if she had all the correct paperwork that she would receive such treatment but who knows maybe she did and it's just messed up.

She didn't have the right paperwork to have a job, so she was working illegally.

Nothing strange in getting deported for that at all.

Thaddy, I have to take you to task on this.

Helping your family take care of your child is not work. It happens in millions if not billions of families around the world. If she wasn't earning a salary for work she had every righ to stay oin her relative's home on a tourist visa. No law broken.

Are grandparents to now be barred from visiting their grandchildren next ?

Labours of love are between family and nobody else's business.

[thaimate]

as she was coming on holiday ,she should not have been working. But as she had a valid visa if you had told the immegration officer that you wished to fight her case in Ireland they would have had to let her stay.

i know, this happened to me and a young lady many moons ago(but thats another story)

Edited April 21, 2009 by thaimate

[torrenova]

But if I read this correctly, she was going in and out like people do in Thailand at the Cambodia border (ok, staying more than 20 minutes) and coming back as soon as she had another 3 month visa. Thus, she was either a permanent tourist (no proof of income) or working illegally (which she was).

This childcare is not as bad as spacefruit makes out. There are ways around some of the costs but in the most simplistic sense, yes, you pay out of your net income and you also pay her employer costs as well. Totally screwed up thinking for middle earning people.

Yet in the UK you can get tax credits for up to £170 per week for one child and I think £300 for two kids. At a marginal rate of 40%, this is worth about £70 for one child and £120 for two children. At 20% this is worth £35 and £60 approximately. I guess people on 20% can claim other allowances as the bands for income are only:

Personal allowance £6475

20% income tax band £0-£37400.

40% income tax band £37400+

I know you have NI as well but someone on the average annual salary or anywhere near it is not going to be able to pay for childcare at £170 a week or more (sure more in London, like double), so even the £70 per week tax credit is not going to help much.

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi

Maybe Ireland is the first country in "The West" where equal rights are applied, i.e. Thai visitors are getting exactly what Irish visitors get in Thailand? Remember LOS is where you need an official work permit to pick your own nose...... and getting caught picking your nose WITHOUT a work permit gets you deported, too.

As hard is it sounds, child care IS a job and getting money for it makes it even more a job, so a tourist visa is the wrong the and her deportation was right. Now next step hopefully they deny Thai citizens to buy land and charge double entry fees at tourist attractions.

Best regards.....

Thanh

[F1fanatic]

This reminds me of the thread 'Does Thailand want us here?'

Non-EU visitors (that Customs believe are not 'visitors' at all, but there to work at the expense of a local employee), are not at all welcome in any farang country. Same in Thailand.

[samran]

Another Thai visa thread where people blame everyone else except for those actually responsible for the f-up.

Many are missing the point here. An immigration officers job is to ensure that the person about the enter the country is going to adhere to their visa condition.

Receiving a salary while on a tourist visa means that you have broken that condition, and thus, the law by working illegally. If the immigration officer has proof that the person intends to break the law by working on a tourist visa, then they get deported. Simple.

I suspect that the sister in law simply fessed up to what she was doing, not suspecting that what she was doing was wrong, and got deported.

Blame the hubby and his wife for organising things incorrectly. Many countries have visas (and different criteria) for domestic servants. It isn't rocket science

[thaiwanderer]

seems she'd done multiple 3 month tourist visits whilst not a tourist - even on their version of events

he took one thai woman to ireland for a better life as a cleaner now wants her sister to have a better life working as their child minder (if you believe his story) - good on irish immigration for stopping the deadbeat wasting 2 lives

[ernest1966]

Lets say, I have have a kid, both me and the wife both work (in thailand), my sister comes over on a 2 month tourist visa. Mmm she says to the immigration guy she's over to look after our baby. Hmmm guess what will happen, she gets deported and I probably will get in a load of shit as well.

Come on people, the guys where only doing their jobs. Lets have a bit of clarity instead of the bleedin' heart cr@p

[Scott]

Several people have gotten it right. She arrived on a tourist visa and that ONLY permits her to be a tourist. The Immigration officers job is to make sure the person's purpose of the trip and visa match. As a non-citizen she does not have the same rights as a citizen. Generally, the embassy issuing the visa goes through things rather thoroughly before issuing the visa and the lady must have been coached, otherwise the embassy would have denied her a tourist visa and told her to apply for an employment-related visa.

I am sure the officer who issued the original visa will be notified of a 'mistake' being made and will be informed to sharpen his skills about catching this sort of thing.

Sorry for the family and sorry for the poor lady. It's especially tricky since a single, Thai female draws some unwarranted attention to begin with. Multiple entries for a non-English speaking woman who may have limited financial resources would raise questions.

[Briggsy]

If she was from Nigeria or Pakistan, she would have had all the right answers. Sounds like she was too honest.

[F1fanatic]

If she was from Nigeria or Pakistan, she would have had all the right answers. Sounds like she was too honest.

Yes, thai women are far more honest.

[PeaceBlondie]

My son migrated to Ireland. Barred from working until he had an Irish child. Has worked legally ever since. Irish law is more generous and fair than Thai law.