From: At Least 77 Injured In Bangkok Clashes

[plachon]

I'm greatly worried. I've read a number of posts in this forum where people clearly advocated the use of deadly force against protesters.

First I don't remember PAD opponents EVER making such request during PAD protest.

More disturbing is the fact that those posts are allowed to be published.

It seems you have a case of severe amnesia in that case then Pierrot. I can remember daily calls by your Red-sympathising friends for the Somchai and Samak govts to use violence on the PAD protests to break them up and in some cases calling for deadly force to be used. Some even seemed to have a soft spot for Sae Daeng and his grenade lobbing antics on sleeping people, including many women who were injured by Red bombs. It seems you were not that bothered then about these posts being published - what's with the turnaround in attitude now?

Personally, I think any use of violence by protesters of any shade of shirt should be rapidly and efficiently suppressed by the appropriate govt authorities using proportional levels of force to isolate and arrest the perpertators. Calls for violence by any side are retrogressive and could be inflammatory in such a volatile situation. Everyone should calm down, keep cool and pray this thing is quickly brought under control by the present govt with as few injuries and deaths on either side. Protest leaders who have broken the law and incited others to violence should be arrested and charged accordingly. Immediate steps should be taken to extradite Thaksin from wherever he is hiding and have a new charge of treason added to the long list of chargeshe is already facing.

[brahmburgers]

>>Well, they can't use water cannons cause many Thai's can't swim <<

You are so funny ( not ).

... but if they use "nam plaa" instead of water... ??? AROY DEE

ok, you attempt to jest, but 'nam plaa' is hyper putrid fish offal, is it not?

I posted earlier about the need for Thai security forces to try to get abreast of crowd control / crowd dispersal tools. There are such tools that are being developed in other countries. Yes, there is some expense, but not formidable. Some of the newer types are:

>>> sonic deterants (high pitched, non-harmful sound) that granted, may not work on Thais, because they're inured to loud high pitched sounds.

>>> sticky goo together with netting

>>> foul smelling sticky compounds (brings us back to 'nam plaa', so maybe that wouldn't work on Thais either).

>>> rubber bullets

>>>> mace, or put an exit fan on a Thai kitchen that's burning cayenne in a frying pan.

>>> electrical charged filaments that stun but don't permanently injure.

>>> Thai pop music, different songs loudly blasted concurrently from various angles. Woops, forget that one, it's already been tried in Thai super stores, and it's been found to attract, rather than repel.

I'll say it again: Entrepreneural Thais could possibly take a part in developing such crowd control tools, or they can sit back and simply copy them or buy them from western businesses, that are currently developing such things. There was a Thai who invented a unique fire-suppressing tool (in ball form), so it's not unheard of for Thais to develop unique, practical and useful items.

Edited April 13, 2009 by brahmburgers

[deprogrammed]

I'm of the opinion that Thailand would be on a slow but sure path to becoming a first world country, if it weren't for these political disturbances. I don't believe that overthrowing the institution in place for a "better one" is the right solution. Education, understanding, multiculturalism, tourism, input from the west (yes that means farangs), inclusion into ASEAN and Thailand being given the chance to be taken seriously on the political stage are all part and parcel of steps towards establishing a mediocrity in Thailand.

Their education and mentality is so far removed from a developed country bearing in mind they have one of the lowest average IQs for any country on the planet.

Those are the biggest issues to development in Thailand. Address those, and the rest eventually falls into place.

But 'First World' country? Not in our lifetimes I'm afraid.

What is being currently witnessed is the result of a non-educaion system. It is impossible to control adults with the menatlity of 10 year old children

[sbk]

Be aware that due to the high volume of posts, post that are deemed in contravention of the rules or inappropriate will be deleted without notice given to the poster.

[farangconnection]

The reds do not seem to want to talk but rather confront. That is a formula for mayhem

Would these be the same 'reds' that called the 'yellows' idiots when they took over the airports?

[dttk0009]

I'm greatly worried. I've read a number of posts in this forum where people clearly advocated the use of deadly force against protesters.

First I don't remember PAD opponents EVER making such request during PAD protest.

More disturbing is the fact that those posts are allowed to be published.

There's a not-so-fine line between protesting and hooliganism/rioting. There's nothing wrong with banding together with people and voicing your beliefs/concerns about something. There's something very wrong with lobbing molotov cocktails, hijacking LPG trucks and flat out attacking unarmed people with a mob mentality. This kind of behavior can only be countered with superior force, or better said, suppression. Nobody (sane) here wants to see casualties or injuries, but at this point it's unavoidable.

The soldiers and police are out there protecting US, let's remember that.

Could you please let me know when history vindicated the use of live ammunition on a crowd ?

On a personnal note, the fact that you use the word "suppression", therefore coldly advocating the killing of human people, makes me sick !

I suppose you advocate the use of molotov cocktails and IEDs then? No one said anything about firing wildly into a crowd of people, and that's not what's happening, but those soldiers are trained to protect themselves and others. To my knowledge, mostly teargas and water trucks are being used, along with rubber bullets and warning shots. Lethal force should be a last resort, but if 2 red shirts die as a result of a standoff when they threaten to blow up an entire living complex with a gigantic tank full of liquid petroleum, then no one can realistically disagree with such a course of action. Better them than hundreds of innocents, including women and children. Do you want to be a martyr for their cause? Imagine if that living complex was the one you lived in.

Live ammunition is used frequently in history on individuals that threaten the lives and safety of others, both by militaries and police forces all over the world.

[bonobo]

OK .... I give up .... you guys are correct and Mythbusters is wrong. I thought their experiments were a bit too simplistic anyway although they measured velocity and penetrating power of several different calibres. They also interviewed a doctor who had treated someone who had been hit by a bullet like this, although the victim wasn't mortally wounded even though struck in the head. I should note that this experiment was in regard to "falling" bullets. Yes indeed round simply fired "above the heads" of protesters will still have significant velocity when they strike those upper story condos.

Not to  nitpick, but while the velocity of a falling round certainly does not have the same velocity as a directly-fired round, it still can be deadly. If the woman in our compound in Iraq had been hit in the body armor, the round almost certainly would not have penetrated (as it would have if it had been fired directly at her.)  As it was, it hit her in the neck above the collar of her vest, and it killed her.  She died within a minute or so.

While Mythbusters certainly provide good entertainment, and they do bust some myths, the fact of the matter is that rounds falling back to earth can still pose a threat.  If you hear a lot of gunfire, the prudent thing to do is take some sort of cover (although a spent round may be coming from a rifle fired beyond your hearing.)

[esprit]

I'm greatly worried. I've read a number of posts in this forum where people clearly advocated the use of deadly force against protesters.

First I don't remember PAD opponents EVER making such request during PAD protest.

More disturbing is the fact that those posts are allowed to be published.

There's a not-so-fine line between protesting and hooliganism/rioting. There's nothing wrong with banding together with people and voicing your beliefs/concerns about something. There's something very wrong with lobbing molotov cocktails, hijacking LPG trucks and flat out attacking unarmed people with a mob mentality. This kind of behavior can only be countered with superior force, or better said, suppression. Nobody (sane) here wants to see casualties or injuries, but at this point it's unavoidable.

The soldiers and police are out there protecting US, let's remember that.

Could you please let me know when history vindicated the use of live ammunition on a crowd ?

On a personnal note, the fact that you use the word "suppression", therefore coldly advocating the killing of human people, makes me sick !

I suppose you advocate the use of molotov cocktails and IEDs then? No one said anything about firing wildly into a crowd of people, and that's not what's happening, but those soldiers are trained to protect themselves and others. To my knowledge, mostly teargas and water trucks are being used, along with rubber bullets and warning shots. Lethal force should be a last resort, but if 2 red shirts die as a result of a standoff when they threaten to blow up an entire living complex with a gigantic tank full of liquid petroleum, then no one can realistically disagree with such a course of action. Better them than hundreds of innocents, including women and children. Do you want to be a martyr for their cause? Imagine if that living complex was the one you lived in.

Live ammunition is used frequently in history on individuals that threaten the lives and safety of others, both by militaries and police forces all over the world.

As a matter of fact, based on television pictures, the retards are not using real molotov cocktails. Clearly being an uneducated rabble they think that using plastic bottles filled with fuel is one said incendiary. As I said the retards are so uneducated they do not undertsand fundamentals hence all they are throwing are nothing more than bouncing canisters of fuel. At there most lethal only if the fuel runs out from the wick. Just as well they are as thick as pig sh*t really as many more could very well get injured including the very well controlled army should they use the appropriate container.

Edited April 13, 2009 by esprit

[Moebius87]

Very sad and troubling times for Thailand.

I don't know my Thai history as well as I should, but if this situation worsens into a civil war this will be the first time since ancient history that common citizens will find themselves pitted against their own countrymen. Very disturbing... and to think that these days are supposed to be "holy-days" and not just holidays.

It may be too late to hope for a peaceful resolution, but let's pray that cooler hearts and more intelligent minds prevail.

— Möe

[swifty5x5]

Rainman, you really are an ar5e and your only redeeming feature is consistancy.

So in your opinion, if someone doesn't have the same opinion as you, he's an arse?

Wow, what a way to look at the world every day.

rain give your head a shake.

[Acharn]

Government ignores the problem like when Somchai was PM, Thai Visa experts complain and moan.

Government does it's job and takes control of Violent protesters disrupting everyones life, Thai Visa experts complain moan.

What is it with people here,?

Errrmm... Hello? Somchai tried to do something but Anupong refused to do anything. The police tried, but got no support from the Army, which was busy supporting the PAD. Now we see they have no problem acting against opponents of the PAD, although it appears the Red Shirts may have actually broken the law. We can't tell, you see, because both the English language papers are slaves of Sondhi and the PAD and are shameless in distorting facts. The foreign news agencies are helpful, but don't know the local scene well and have to maintain good relations with the government and Army.

[Acharn]

Why would there have to be a good school everywhere. Thailand isn't a rich country just center it around important places. If you want your child to go somewhere you should move closer to the spots. Even in Holland it was quite normal for ppl to either find a room close to school or travel 4 hours a day to a school. If you want something it can be done.

Things don't always have to be handed to you you have to put a lil effort in it. You put effort in it and she got her education... good. I have seen ppl from other provinces study in BKK its quite normal.

You cant expect a good school everywhere within walking distance.

I am more pro democrats then pro taksin but i think all them are big crooks who only care about their own money. It really doesnt mather much who is in charge they are there for their own not to help the ppl.

Your reply is absolutely mind-boggling! I can see you have never visited people in a small village in the North and Northeast. "Even in Holland" indeed. I suspect you have no idea of what life is like for low income people in The Netherlands, much less a poorer country like Thailand.

[ballpoint]

Government ignores the problem like when Somchai was PM, Thai Visa experts complain and moan.

Government does it's job and takes control of Violent protesters disrupting everyones life, Thai Visa experts complain moan.

What is it with people here,?

Errrmm... Hello? Somchai tried to do something but Anupong refused to do anything. The police tried, but got no support from the Army, which was busy supporting the PAD. Now we see they have no problem acting against opponents of the PAD, although it appears the Red Shirts may have actually broken the law. We can't tell, you see, because both the English language papers are slaves of Sondhi and the PAD and are shameless in distorting facts. The foreign news agencies are helpful, but don't know the local scene well and have to maintain good relations with the government and Army.

What can't you tell? To take just two examples: We have seen pictures of the thugs smashing cars and beating their drivers at the interior ministry. We have confirmed reports that the red shirts parked a gas truck in a residential area and threatened to blow it up, some of those residents may well have originally supported them, but I bet they don't now. Where do you come from that these things are not considered breaking the law? The apoplogists for the thuggery and barbarism of the red shirts are sounding weaker and weaker, but still won't take their heads out of the sand and admit that they are wrong. Trying to compare what we have seen over the past day or two to the PAD's actions is ludicrous.

[khunjamespittman]

The army has not learned it lessons. You cannot win an uprising. Neither in the South, neither in Bangkok, neither in the North or North East. The army is big and slow, therefore the protestors can move quickly and strike wherever they want. if they want to disrupt the daily live they can do so. The army clear one crossing they take 4 crossings, when the army moves in, they move out, regroup and take new targets, huge armies have lost that way. There is not other solution than striking a deal which is acceptable for each and everyone.

However, at last a show of strength from a government supposed to be in place for the people. Do you want wishy washy non action or should these people be shown that there IS a law. Seems we complain about No action then complain about the action when it arrives and as to how we could all 'do a better job" We are guests...... observe by all means but armchair pontificators are no help!

yep, as guest we should observed history in the making. i feel for the people and love thailand. I was born and raise here and my mom is thai. i feel like a citizen here eventhough i'm an american. but some one need to take a step and it does not matter which road they take. they government got to do something quick. take innocent lives or step down.

one thing i know for sure is "there will be blood" . Should i be the first to predict a "Bloody Songkarn" ?

sorry, if i sound like a heart less butt hole. but reality is reality. but when you have 2 group if people who are arm with weapon ( the red and the army) in such close proximity, someone will probaly loose their nurve and unintentionally pull a trigger. once a fire is shot, all hel_l brake loose . war has began that way.

I read your quote. I hope no one believes your words. One falsehood in your words puts in doubt the other words. You said you are American. OK! You said that you were born in Thailand with a Thai mother. OK! That makes you a Thai citizen also. Either your words are false or you don't undersatnd your immigration status. Maybe you are just another Thai trying to influence others by beating up on farangs.

Too many people in these TV fora use anonymity to say anything.

[Sambkkview]

The army has not learned it lessons. You cannot win an uprising. Neither in the South, neither in Bangkok, neither in the North or North East. The army is big and slow, therefore the protestors can move quickly and strike wherever they want. if they want to disrupt the daily live they can do so. The army clear one crossing they take 4 crossings, when the army moves in, they move out, regroup and take new targets, huge armies have lost that way. There is not other solution than striking a deal which is acceptable for each and everyone.

However, at last a show of strength from a government supposed to be in place for the people. Do you want wishy washy non action or should these people be shown that there IS a law. Seems we complain about No action then complain about the action when it arrives and as to how we could all 'do a better job" We are guests...... observe by all means but armchair pontificators are no help!

It is quite obvious that the red shirts are incited by only one man who is spending all his money in a desparate move to regain what he has cheated from Thai people. It is amazing how little it takes to persuade the red shirts taking the streets, all just to serve his own personal agenda in changing the law in Thailand so that he can walk free in Thailand again and to unfreeze all the money he has extorted during his premiership. It is sad to see that unemployed and deprived people from the North and North East are used for such selfish purpose, and yet destroying Thailand's remaining credibility worth Trillions of Baht just for his own sake. Typically what he has done in the past, give 500 Baht in order to get support from uneducated farmers and taxi drivers. It is time for people to see that what is happening now is only the tip of the iceberg.

[Charma]

I'm greatly worried. I've read a number of posts in this forum where people clearly advocated the use of deadly force against protesters.

First I don't remember PAD opponents EVER making such request during PAD protest.

More disturbing is the fact that those posts are allowed to be published.

There's a not-so-fine line between protesting and hooliganism/rioting. There's nothing wrong with banding together with people and voicing your beliefs/concerns about something. There's something very wrong with lobbing molotov cocktails, hijacking LPG trucks and flat out attacking unarmed people with a mob mentality. This kind of behavior can only be countered with superior force, or better said, suppression. Nobody (sane) here wants to see casualties or injuries, but at this point it's unavoidable.

The soldiers and police are out there protecting US, let's remember that.

Could you please let me know when history vindicated the use of live ammunition on a crowd ?

On a personnal note, the fact that you use the word "suppression", therefore coldly advocating the killing of human people, makes me sick !

I suppose you advocate the use of molotov cocktails and IEDs then? No one said anything about firing wildly into a crowd of people, and that's not what's happening, but those soldiers are trained to protect themselves and others. To my knowledge, mostly teargas and water trucks are being used, along with rubber bullets and warning shots. Lethal force should be a last resort, but if 2 red shirts die as a result of a standoff when they threaten to blow up an entire living complex with a gigantic tank full of liquid petroleum, then no one can realistically disagree with such a course of action. Better them than hundreds of innocents, including women and children. Do you want to be a martyr for their cause? Imagine if that living complex was the one you lived in.

Live ammunition is used frequently in history on individuals that threaten the lives and safety of others, both by militaries and police forces all over the world.

BBC footage clearly shows troops firing directly into crowds of people at more than one location. I would guess that someone somewhere has given an order to do this as it did not look like a panic reaction from the troops concerned.

[Netfan]

Okay, i just spent most of the afternoon on rachaparap between rang nam and sri ayuthaya. the pics speak for themselves. two things- the army guys showed remarkable restraint. the reds tried to run them down with buses and at least on taxi, threw bottles and bricks at them - and threw them at firefighters trying to put out a burning bus in front of a residential building. two - the reds are either so fanatical that there is no reasoning with them, or they are stoned/drunk. i was there - thats the way they are. nothing but a lawless mob. sorry about the heavy load of pics....

NON VIOLENT????? btw, residents of the area were urging the soldiers to go get the reds- they want them gone

this bus was driven / sent right at the line of soldiers, it swerved at the last minute

[Maledicta]

How about the blue shirt attacking the reds?..maybe that agitate them??..there are reports that the blues are acting on the command of the government...

[h90]

How about the blue shirt attacking the reds?..maybe that agitate them??..there are reports that the blues are acting on the command of the government...

There are reports that normal (no specific TShirt) people attack the red shirts now. But no idea if there is somewhere one unimportant incident or if there is something more.

On youtube there were before videos from angry people when they first blocked the streets so it is very probable that it might be true

[rainman]

Not to  nitpick, but while the velocity of a falling round certainly does not have the same velocity as a directly-fired round, it still can be deadly. If the woman in our compound in Iraq had been hit in the body armor, the round almost certainly would not have penetrated (as it would have if it had been fired directly at her.)  As it was, it hit her in the neck above the collar of her vest, and it killed her.  She died within a minute or so.

While Mythbusters certainly provide good entertainment, and they do bust some myths, the fact of the matter is that rounds falling back to earth can still pose a threat.  If you hear a lot of gunfire, the prudent thing to do is take some sort of cover (although a spent round may be coming from a rifle fired beyond your hearing.)

I have to laugh when Abhisit says that his troops only fired live bullets into the air. He obviously believes that bullets fired into the air will remain up there forever and never come down somewhere. This guy is beyond ridiculous. Some poor farmer might get hit in the head in the field kilometers away without even knowing where it came from. If you don't want to hurt somebody, don't fire with live bullets, period.

[dttk0009]

BBC footage clearly shows troops firing directly into crowds of people at more than one location. I would guess that someone somewhere has given an order to do this as it did not look like a panic reaction from the troops concerned.

Indeed, but until this situation is over and the fog of war clears, we won't know if they were blanks, rubber bullets or live ammunition. If the military were really just blindly firing into a crowd at random with live ammunition we would have a severely high mortality rate. We also can't see if they're returning fire. I remember seeing photos yesterday of red-shirts who managed to snag some weaponry and ammunition from the police or military.

Let's remember that there are injured people on both sides. Right now it's all speculation with the little information we have.

[rainman]

There are reports that normal (no specific TShirt) people attack the red shirts now.

There are reports that a dog pooped in your soi. I will let you know as soon as I have more detailed information.

These 'reports' are coming from left and right, most of them are made up rumors by someone that heard something from someone else's uncle that knows someone that said something.

[Netfan]

Not to  nitpick, but while the velocity of a falling round certainly does not have the same velocity as a directly-fired round, it still can be deadly. If the woman in our compound in Iraq had been hit in the body armor, the round almost certainly would not have penetrated (as it would have if it had been fired directly at her.)  As it was, it hit her in the neck above the collar of her vest, and it killed her.  She died within a minute or so.

While Mythbusters certainly provide good entertainment, and they do bust some myths, the fact of the matter is that rounds falling back to earth can still pose a threat.  If you hear a lot of gunfire, the prudent thing to do is take some sort of cover (although a spent round may be coming from a rifle fired beyond your hearing.)

I have to laugh when Abhisit says that his troops only fired live bullets into the air. He obviously believes that bullets fired into the air will remain up there forever and never come down somewhere. This guy is beyond ridiculous. Some poor farmer might get hit in the head in the field kilometers away without even knowing where it came from. If you don't want to hurt somebody, don't fire with live bullets, period.

And if you don't want bullets fired, then don't try to kill the soldiers. And yes, a burning runaway bus aimed at a group of people will kill them. And dont throw bricks at unarmed firemen. Or is that okay? And btw, the fireman first went out and tried to ask the reds to NOT throw things at them,. Red response- threw a brick at the guy.

The reds have been the ones starting the violence, trying very hard to provoke a response. The reds have been very lucky so far that so much restraint has been shown.

Edited April 13, 2009 by Netfan

[rainman]

So, what's the solution?

[coconutmonkey]

There are reports that normal (no specific TShirt) people attack the red shirts now.

There are reports that a dog pooped in your soi. I will let you know as soon as I have more detailed information.

These 'reports' are coming from left and right, most of them are made up rumors by someone that heard something from someone else's uncle that knows someone that said something.

That is something more than you know; just something I heard from someone that said something.

No offence, Rainman. Actually, I like your posts.... funny.... but not well thought out, that's all.

[LawnGnome]

Not to nitpick, but while the velocity of a falling round certainly does not have the same velocity as a directly-fired round, it still can be deadly. If the woman in our compound in Iraq had been hit in the body armor, the round almost certainly would not have penetrated (as it would have if it had been fired directly at her.) As it was, it hit her in the neck above the collar of her vest, and it killed her. She died within a minute or so.

While Mythbusters certainly provide good entertainment, and they do bust some myths, the fact of the matter is that rounds falling back to earth can still pose a threat. If you hear a lot of gunfire, the prudent thing to do is take some sort of cover (although a spent round may be coming from a rifle fired beyond your hearing.)

I have to laugh when Abhisit says that his troops only fired live bullets into the air. He obviously believes that bullets fired into the air will remain up there forever and never come down somewhere. This guy is beyond ridiculous. Some poor farmer might get hit in the head in the field kilometers away without even knowing where it came from. If you don't want to hurt somebody, don't fire with live bullets, period.

How about, if you don't want to hurt someone, don't steal a bus and try to run over police and army members, don't beat up the PM's secretary, don't park a LPG gas truck next to a residential apartment, don't through rocks, bricks, molotov cocktails at police and army, don't set buses on fire, don't invade a meeting of 16 heads of state, etc...

[h90]

There are reports that normal (no specific TShirt) people attack the red shirts now.

There are reports that a dog pooped in your soi. I will let you know as soon as I have more detailed information.

These 'reports' are coming from left and right, most of them are made up rumors by someone that heard something from someone else's uncle that knows someone that said something.

That is something more than you know; just something I heard from someone that said something.

No offence, Rainman. Actually, I like your posts.... funny.... but not well thought out, that's all.

Different than Rainman I don't post nonsense and I write it clear that it is a rumor. Meanwhile the nation is reporting it:

Local residents at Yommaraj, Nang Lerng intersections battle red-shirts

About 500 local residents near the Yommaraj Intersection gathered to confront the red-shirted protesters after they set fires on roads.

They clashed with the protesters after they protesters refused to put out the blazes they set to things used as barricades.

Meanwhile, vendors and local residents near the Nang Lerng Market gathered to form line to guard their properties and shouted at the red-shirted protesters.

They shooed away the protesters who threatened to slam their motorcycles at the local residents.

[rainman]

No offence, Rainman. Actually, I like your posts.... funny.... but not well thought out, that's all.

Says a guy called 'coconutmonkey'.

[Indra]

I personally beleve a democracy works only in a high educated country, like in Europe US or Australia, etc. In third world countries is better to be in dictatorship, because peaple aren't educated enought to understand politics and economics. I'm not here to critisize reds or yellows, as is not my right or country either, but demonstrations and protesters not solve the problem in both ways, doesn't matter who they are. It just f..ks up the economy and the tourists will not come either, not to mention the global bad situation we have anyway allready. Most of the bargirls and taxidrivers are on red side, but they don't understand that they will not get any income for the next maybe 6 months. Many Protesters are greedy and care only about their daily 1000 Baht they get during a demonstration. Protesters shotting them self in the feet as they gonna lose Jobs and income, therefore democracy not really work. Just a classic example. Paraguay is a military regime for decades and it works fine. Another thing, i'm not a fan of Saddams Regime, but Saddam had his country totally under control. When the Americans came and try to create a democracy in Irak, the troubles started and still not finished yet.

After freed from British colonization, did most Americans were educated?

After French revolution, did most French are educated?

The problem of chaotic situation in several democratized countries are the fight between tiger and lion, both parties are greedy and power hungry.

If only some party wants to educate the people hence delaying their winning in short term but ensure fair election in the future therefore developping for the future of the country; But, who are willing to do so?

[rainman]

So anyways, what does everyone suggest the solution to the problems are? I see fighting and attacking on here but nobody offers a solution. Do we all agree that there is no solution? Or is there a genius around that has one?