Obsession About Losing Face

[goodheartman]

Look at particular rules on particular web forums on how you're not allowed to talk about particular professions of a particularly significant large demographic of foreigner's significant others. Preservation of face at its purest. Hint, I'm not talking about pantip, sanook, or hunsa.

there s a thread on thai girl panties that hasnt been closed!

[Artisi]

When i moved here 3 months ago, my wife and her sister sat me down and told me i can have girls on the side. I was in shock.

In the US my wife was VERY jealous and possessive.

The only stipulation which they harped on endlessly was "no take girl our condo". I asked why and the sister explained in

great detail of how my wife would lose face if the neighbors saw me with a girl.

Since then she caught me once with a girl inside our place (her job takes her away for days at a time) but didnt freak out, she

just told the girl you can see my husband but dont come my baan. The girl was shi tting her pants as my wife walked in with

2 of her friends. My wife offered her a drink after and we all went for a swim in the pool. It was surreal. I expected WW3. The

poor thai girl couldnt believe it, she was stunned. She was nervous going in the pool lol.

We are planning on moving soon and my wife seems not to care if i have girls over. I am guessing she thinks she will never see

these people/neighbors again so who cares. But talking with her about our new place she is already on me about no girls.

So Mr "Soigirlhunter", can we presume your wife was working in an office or was studying tirelessly at University when you met ?

And where is she when she is "away for days at a time" - off with her Thai boyfriend enjoying herself

[goodheartman]

i think soi girlman wife married him for money!

[Familyonthemove]

Or perhaps it made him quick to concede and appease.

Maybe ...... but he's still there ... and the Soi's of Bangkok are not full of red and yellow shirts having running battles.

And last I saw .... he still had a face.

[Texpat]

I'd rather have a leader with a mandate than a face.

And no, jing, I'm not talking about you again.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Texpat

[Heng]

Look at particular rules on particular web forums on how you're not allowed to talk about particular professions of a particularly significant large demographic of foreigner's significant others. Preservation of face at its purest. Hint, I'm not talking about pantip, sanook, or hunsa.

Well,you cannot expect a retired farang,who have ten years left at best,to spend one month courting the "good girls"do you?

But "face" is important wherever we live, funny some people think it's a Thai issue only.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, other than it is face saving pure and simple. It's just a semantic rationalization to say it's just so that people don't get their feelings hurt.

[Heng]

Look at particular rules on particular web forums on how you're not allowed to talk about particular professions of a particularly significant large demographic of foreigner's significant others. Preservation of face at its purest. Hint, I'm not talking about pantip, sanook, or hunsa.

there s a thread on thai girl panties that hasnt been closed!

It most certainly will be if it veers towards where those panties have been.

[jellymeister]

This thing about Thais not wanting to lose face is probably the most ridiculous thing i have ever encountered here.......it is just gives a green light for lying!!!

You can ask a Thai for driving directions, and rather than say they dont know, they will give you the greatest blether of <deleted> and smile and send you off in the wrong direction. I dont care if they know or not, i can ask somebody else, find it by myself or whatever. Wheather they are clever enough to know the correct way or not does not put them up or down in my estimation, However, lying to try and make themselves look good - does put them down in my view!!

I used to find it amusing many years ago, but now it is just ridiculious and tedious!!!

........

So it can't be just a Thai thing.

Absolutely correct.

Try asking for directions when you are India.

You will without a doubt get the most complex & detailed set of directions from a person that is totally clueless as to where you want to go.

Yes, I had exactly the same problem in India, I couldn't figure it out at first then realised that rather than admit they didn't know they would just lie to save face, it was so annoying. I always hoped I would run into one of these people again so I could say "You gave me the wrong directions, you know what you're talking about"

They don't realise that most westerners don't care as long as the person is honest, a simple "I don't know" is always better than lying. I understand the concept of saving face but when it comes to lying over a simple matter like directions then it becomes ridiculous and sometimes infuriating.

Also I've noticed that in shops when they say "Sorry, we no have" they always have a sheepish look on their face, it's a situation where they can not lie, so I wonder if that is seen as losing face?

You should ask for directions in Ireland...very likely you will give up and end up in a pub drinking Guiness

[jellymeister]

I don't think it's just an Asian concept, I don't know very many Americans that like losing face and some will fight even when they know they are dead wrong like my father and grandfather for example, they are never wrong; everyone else is an idiot.

Is this more like pride than "face"...to me face seems to be used as an excuse for losing control or temper whereas westerners spend their lives trying to be in control

[bonobo]

On the Amazing Race episode in Phuket of a few weeks ago, one team was eliminated because the driver of their taxi refused to admit that he didn't know where the "gorilla statue" was (it was a gorilla statue at the Phuket Zoo). He insisted it was in one of the southern beaches, then rode through all the beach towns along the way hoping to see this statue.  When he finally got as far south as he could go, he was forced to admit he didn't know.  By the time someone told him it was at the zoo, the team he was driving was so far behind that they could ot catch up and were eliminated.  That was potentially a $1,000,000 saving face mistake.

[lannarebirth]

I've found that many foreigners, after living here awhile, adopt the saving face thing really quickly. No one likes to be embarrassed.

I think that's true of all nationalities to a certain extent. Here, I'd say money trumps face in almost every instance however.

[Thai at Heart]

I love it when a group of adult Thais will sit around listening to some old coot spewing absolute bullsh!t -- all murmuring luhr, luhr in unison -- because they're not allowed to tell the old basturd he's full of it and needs to be in an asylum.

Great face-saving comedy.

never saw that.....but all around me are southerns with some chinese genes inside

Just watch the morning Thai TV with the male presenter espousing his opinions on the news and the female co-presenter cooing ka ka ka ka for 10 minutes without adding anything to the conversation at all. It isn't just present in Thailand, most of Asia has it in one form or another. That said, an upstart in the UK will be brandished a cocky bastard if he pushes his elders too far, and people will take great pleasure in him being put in his place.

[merck]

I often hear about Thai and Asian face, as though its something mysterious and hard to understand, but is it really that different to Western face? It's most probably a universal human trait not to like to lose face and be embarrased in front of others, even young children can get embarrassed eg if they fall over etc. This isn't taught, it's an instinct. And people also like to gain face in front of others, for example receive compliments etc. Perhaps face harks back to primeval instincts and caveman times when there was a pecking order in a tribe and it was important to maintain your place and position for survival.

I think where things may differ is that Asians place more emphasis on not losing face and respecting others' face. In the West we do to some extent ride roughshod over others' face, so perhaps we have developed thicker skins and don't go about killing others over loss of face so easily, but it does happen nevertheless.

Anyhow, just a few brief thoughts, would be interested to hear others' opinions.

[t.s]

face is what you try to save when you haven't saved money

[JohnGotti]

"Perhaps face harks back to primeval instincts and caveman times when there was a pecking order in a tribe and it was important to maintain your place and position for survival."

It wasn't about survival, it was about procreation.

[Texpat]

Can't you just fit in?

Edited May 6, 2009 by Texpat

[Brigante7]

I've found that many foreigners, after living here awhile, adopt the saving face thing really quickly. No one likes to be embarrassed.

I always say nothing unless I'm 100% sure that I'm right then I'll let rip with both barrels if needed.

It's the people who think they are 100% right when they aren't even close to 50% that pi_ss me off.

Brigante7.

[Misplaced]

I've found that many foreigners, after living here awhile, adopt the saving face thing really quickly. No one likes to be embarrassed.

I think that's true of all nationalities to a certain extent. Here, I'd say money trumps face in almost every instance however.

Here and in every country, money trumps ALL.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Misplaced

[Jungian]

I don't think it's just an Asian concept, I don't know very many Americans that like losing face and some will fight even when they know they are dead wrong like my father and grandfather for example, they are never wrong; everyone else is an idiot.

Is this more like pride than "face"...to me face seems to be used as an excuse for losing control or temper whereas westerners spend their lives trying to be in control

I guess it depends on how you look at it. To me pride, ego, losing face are all very similar.

[LivinLOS]

Another related issue: I have actually seen a Thai "giving face" to a farang, but alas it was mis-interpreted by the farang as telling an untruth...see the separate thread about Thais telling lies. Of course some Thai will lie as will other nationalities (and I have had my fair share of dishonest farangs in Pattaya) but I think the mis-perception is that there are many more Thais telling lies becasue of a lack of understanding about this face thing.

Truth is an absolute not a relative..

Lies are lies, no amount of wrapping it in cultural baggage changes that fact and you have been here too long when you start to think so.

[Jungian]

When i moved here 3 months ago, my wife and her sister sat me down and told me i can have girls on the side. I was in shock.

In the US my wife was VERY jealous and possessive.

The only stipulation which they harped on endlessly was "no take girl our condo". I asked why and the sister explained in

great detail of how my wife would lose face if the neighbors saw me with a girl.

Since then she caught me once with a girl inside our place (her job takes her away for days at a time) but didnt freak out, she

just told the girl you can see my husband but dont come my baan. The girl was shi tting her pants as my wife walked in with

2 of her friends. My wife offered her a drink after and we all went for a swim in the pool. It was surreal. I expected WW3. The

poor thai girl couldnt believe it, she was stunned. She was nervous going in the pool lol.

We are planning on moving soon and my wife seems not to care if i have girls over. I am guessing she thinks she will never see

these people/neighbors again so who cares. But talking with her about our new place she is already on me about no girls.

"By the time the fool has learned the game, the players have dispersed"

~~African Proverb~~

[tmd5855]

Look at particular rules on particular web forums on how you're not allowed to talk about particular professions of a particularly significant large demographic of foreigner's significant others. Preservation of face at its purest. Hint, I'm not talking about pantip, sanook, or hunsa.

there s a thread on thai girl panties that hasnt been closed!

There is another one about Thai lady blouses, it keeps on being opened up then closed,

Wonder why.......................................will be having a look myself later

[SGDude]

I know a Thai lady who told me out of the blue that her shoes cost over 2000 THB. She has a car that was a gift from her mum and she told me it is a new car and she just sold off her old car to get this new car. It seems like she was trying very hard to impress me about her "wealth" but she also whines that she is a "poor girl".

Anyway, this face culture is not new to me because as a Chinese, I have seen how my parents, relatives and community do a lot of crazy things just to show other people that they are superior. I think this face culture is shallow and ridiculous and I do not follow it.

I thought Thai culture was really laid back and people wouldn't care about showing off too much. Boy, was I wrong! I have been here for only a few months and I am surprised at how much Thais obsess about their "face" like the Chinese. In some ways, the Thai expression of "face" is more complicated than the Chinese way.

I can understand it if someone thinks of losing face if people were to think of them or their family as being unethical/immoral. I would feel disgraced if my spouse had an affair because it looks bad on me. I would also feel like I have "lost face" if my son got some girl pregnant cos it looks bad on me. However, I wouldn't feel like I have "lost face" if my son did not get 1st in his class cos it isn't unethical or immoral to not be in the top 10. A lot of Chinese Singaporeans fuss about their kids' position in class so much that it drives some kids to suicide.

What I cannot understand is a life that is based on trying to "gain face" by doing a lot of things to create this false sense of self-worthiness and at the same time, doing a lot of unnecessary things to "save face" by not looking low class, stupid or poor.

Edited May 16, 2009 by SGDude

[Texpat]

It's only skin deep for most of them. And what's funny is they'll do something really hiso to impress everyone, and once they've achieved the exhaulted status, resort back to their loso ways.

I have a neighbor who bought a new truck recently. The payments are 8,500/month for five years. He's a barber (50 baht for standard cut) and his wife sells coconut juice in a roadside stall. Together they gross about 10K baht a month.

I wish them well, but wonder about happens to the face-gain when the truck is repossessed. BTW, a truck isn't hiso.

[Samuian]

Last year whilst in the wifes village,her uncle Who happens to be the village boss was sitting opposite the house with one or two guys.As I had just arrived I forgot to adjust and gave him the thumbs up instead of a 'wai'. He has about 15 yrs on me so I have no problem to 'wai'. Later on he told the wife that I had disrespected him. I did apologize in Thai later on in front of his friends. Deep down I wanted to tell him to live with it and move on.

I think this post put's the BS on "losing face"

in THAI-Culture at it's best!

Maybe you wife saw this and was afraid she might be losing face,

or worse the reputation of her family, or simply the "Dons" claim

of power over you!

More important that it is more often used as an excuse -

- in the "YOU made ME lose face" context.

And this is used, exploited in ways for me unknown,

unexperienced ever in such a way, before I came here.

Nothing to do with "in England, or in India..."

Edited May 16, 2009 by Samuian

[SGDude]

Just wondering....

Is having a daughter/girlfriend that works as a bargirl, bar dancer, prostitute considered as a "lost of face" here?

[EndofDays]

When i moved here 3 months ago, my wife and her sister sat me down and told me i can have girls on the side. I was in shock.

In the US my wife was VERY jealous and possessive.

The only stipulation which they harped on endlessly was "no take girl our condo". I asked why and the sister explained in

great detail of how my wife would lose face if the neighbors saw me with a girl.

Since then she caught me once with a girl inside our place (her job takes her away for days at a time) but didnt freak out, she

just told the girl you can see my husband but dont come my baan. The girl was shi tting her pants as my wife walked in with

2 of her friends. My wife offered her a drink after and we all went for a swim in the pool. It was surreal. I expected WW3. The

poor thai girl couldnt believe it, she was stunned. She was nervous going in the pool lol.

We are planning on moving soon and my wife seems not to care if i have girls over. I am guessing she thinks she will never see

these people/neighbors again so who cares. But talking with her about our new place she is already on me about no girls.

Man, I SO do not believe this post....

[EndofDays]

........

So it can't be just a Thai thing.

Absolutely correct.

Try asking for directions when you are India.

You will without a doubt get the most complex & detailed set of directions from a person that is totally clueless as to where you want to go.

Yes, I had exactly the same problem in India, I couldn't figure it out at first then realised that rather than admit they didn't know they would just lie to save face, it was so annoying. I always hoped I would run into one of these people again so I could say "You gave me the wrong directions, you know what you're talking about"

They don't realise that most westerners don't care as long as the person is honest, a simple "I don't know" is always better than lying. I understand the concept of saving face but when it comes to lying over a simple matter like directions then it becomes ridiculous and sometimes infuriating.

Also I've noticed that in shops when they say "Sorry, we no have" they always have a sheepish look on their face, it's a situation where they can not lie, so I wonder if that is seen as losing face?

You should ask for directions in Ireland...very likely you will give up and end up in a pub drinking Guiness

Doen't all roads in Ireland lead to a pub at some point?

[SGDude]

It's only skin deep for most of them. And what's funny is they'll do something really hiso to impress everyone, and once they've achieved the exhaulted status, resort back to their loso ways.

I have a neighbor who bought a new truck recently. The payments are 8,500/month for five years. He's a barber (50 baht for standard cut) and his wife sells coconut juice in a roadside stall. Together they gross about 10K baht a month.

I wish them well, but wonder about happens to the face-gain when the truck is repossessed. BTW, a truck isn't hiso.

Did they tell you their truck costs them 8500 thb per month? Just wondering how you knew.

[Texpat]

of course, with great relish.