Single Minded Thais?

[Phil Conners]

when thai say 'think too much' its not the oraganizational skills etc since they are very group oriented etc and they always manage to get things done in an amazingly short amount of time and with minimum fuss  (at least what i see here);

but they dont sit around to analyze a situation to the point of obsession as i see most anglos that i know (including middle eastern/israeli/neurotic jewish types  )

I have the exact opposite experience. Everytime I need something fixed in the house a truckload of Thai's come around, talk about the how to fix the issue for hours, and as often as not are unable.

Maybe something to do with the water in Pattaya?

[bina]

somewhere in the last three pages of posts i grabbed these quotes but forgot to keep the names to give credit so they are out of context and cant remember who said what....(my edit)

I get the impression that there is a bizarre dichotomy in Thailand between 'public conformity' and 'personal anarchy' ie every Thai will do what the custom and norm is re a whole host of public criteria, but at the same time no-one can 'tell' any Thai person what to do.

If I ask where someone has come from or where they are going I am told, silently, that 'you don't ask those kind of questions' That is their business. .....Is that just 'culture'?

Contrarily there was a guy in some other forum proclaiming he was not having his financial affairs discussed by his prospective Thai family...whereas it seems to me that all financial transaction here are transparent.....etc.etc.!!" for now!

two different quotes dont remember from whom sorry:

the Thais I have met, and live with, have an ability to concentrate on their own affairs, life, circumstances, future, to the exclusion of others that I have not come across in westerners…where it would, of course, be called, self obsession, selfish or self-centred…terms that as far as I can judge have no meaning in Thai…because…why would you not be pursuing the interests of yourself.. and your family?…

doesnt theravada budhism call for pursuing 'individual enlightenment ' or developing of the self..... this would make people single minded inclusive of close family life circumstances ; i dont see this as selfish, selfish is in comparison to what your own culture demands of you.... the same as the quote about the money... israelis always ask: oh, nice coat, its new right? how much did you pay for it?, or 'how much is your salary per month?" , to americans this is the height of bad social manners....as opposed to other forms of buddhism that call for being social pro active etc..... maybe a gross over simplification but it suddenly crossed my mind.....

BTW ravisher, greece and israel are mediterranean twins )

(This is Israel and even our s*it is the best s*it (to quote my ex in response to my very proper american mother complaining that israel is third world)

deman, this is the best conversation i've had in a long time...... i either talk to my thai worker , or bleat and baaa, or discuss kibbutz gossip with my friends so it gets rather boring..... this is oh so much more fun, especially as i have no idea with whom i am conversing, what with avatars and fake names etc......

if i were to ask my thai friends the same question they would probably say that this is all a waste of time and we are ' thinking too much'...... mai sanook, lets go eat,na?

Edited February 9, 2005 by bina

[srisatch]

I have been 'away'!!

Yes I am. too, sorry about your gazelle, Bina....Probably going to come back as a moderator.

Just some quick thoughts...I don't agree that the thread needed some..un-seriousness..what is that.?..I think the whole thing is pretty unserious anyway...just fun trying to work it all out!!

Most other threads ...particularly in 'General'...ooh hoity toity na?...are so unserious as to be tedious.

I did not conflate single-mindedness with selfishness..selfish implies a value judgment...I think the example of the SkyTrain is a good one...'They just want to be on the train'...well who does not?...but in London/Paris etc. people have had to learn that letting people off first actually facilitates getting on the train...that means 'thinking' about 'other' people.....and that I do not see much here...Yes I agree about co-operative activity..maybe that is communal singlemindedness?!

[Boon Mee]

Thai Single-Mindedness? Self-Absorption?-Self-Centredness: Generalisations?

And the difficulties with noticing things and explaining.

I would just like to understand!

I used to wonder about all this too but after some years I just accept that it's the way it is and don't concern myself about it anymore.

Must admit it's a bit of a mind-<deleted> at first...

[srisatch]

BTW ravisher, greece and israel are mediterranean twins  )

(This is Israel and even our s*it is the best s*it (to quote my ex in response to my very proper american mother complaining that israel is third world) 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, aint that the truth!

I was talking to some Greek guys and English, having a light conversation about nationalities and one of the Greeks said with a very firm and serious tone, "It's best to be Greek, and Orthodox." Kinda nationalistic.

In my view there is no 'best' nation, no 'best' culture etc etc. If I had my way there would be no countries at all... no passports... no borders... It would be a chaos in the begining with all the world heading for the USA but would sort itself in a few years...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once upon a time, not so long ago, it was like that. You could go from the UK anywhere..no passport, no documents, 'ID', and if you had money, rent a house, just BE and LIVE...think of the lives of expat UK and US writers in the early 20C and before......

I agree there is no 'best'...just different..and some different is congenial..like Thai for the most part...and some uncongeniall....for me that would include the US and Middle East...but also I have lived in Indonesia, Phillipines, Malaysia, Japan, China...it is no accident that I live in Thailand...and it is not that I am wishing to 'go native'...I have said before...for me this is about understanding firstly what goes on in my wife's head, then, as thyey grow up in my childrens' in so far as they are shaped by being here...and thus in the wider 'community'.....If there are differences in the 'way' I am and they are I would like to at least understand a little..not adopt them.....

I said on my weblog that I had been reading Adam Phillips, my favorite shrink, more...He is very good on 'Just Being'...without hassles, stress, greed....

[srisatch]

As a footnote?!

We went to the 'ceremony' to send a boy off to be a monk. Mostly mayhem; serious stuff, with a good excuse for a bash.

When it came to the Phu Yai wanting to do his stuff there were about 30 very drunk ladies of 25-35 age, who just went on cackling and shouting. In the Uk they would have been told to shut up. Not here. Asked the wife why doesn't some-one ask/tell them to have some manners/respect? Answer If that is what they want to do, up to them...Now I don't think that is single-minded either, just rude....so!

[No beleeeeve!]

One thing I noticed is that the education system is based on memorization and repetition. This rigid cognitive process never allows the internal analytical dialogue to develop we have with ourselves when confronted with decisions to make throughout the day.

If information to repeat is not spoon fed, confusion is often the result and often an impulsive act will follow. The lack of this internal dialogue to the extent that Westerners are educated with is distinct and yes, you can generalize. Generalizing is exactly what research is based on. There are distinct differences between cultures that one can generalize about. Of course there are exceptions, but exceptions do not negate the majority that you are generalizing about.

So, when you see people on motorbikes for example that jump out in traffic or other what we consider foolish things, think about the thought process involved and whether that person reacted impulsively or thought about his act. Usually it will be an impulsive act with little regard for the consequences.

When out and about, keep asking yourself why you think people do the things they do. Like walk down the center of a sidewalk with an umbrella poking everyone in the eyes who don't jump out of the way. Or why people on the BTS platform never wait until riders get off before they try to rush in through the crowd when it would be easier to just wait about 5 seconds. Look for impulsivity.

Just a simplified version of my years of observing and analyzing cognitive schema of the culture. Know that observation is not a judgement. I have not said it was better or worse (heading off the flames).

[Marmite the Dog]

About being self absorbed, I (politely) asked my Thai gf why thais will crowd into an elevator or skytrain before letting people disembark. Her answer was that "they are only thinking that they want inside-they are not trying to block you from exiting...."

Yes, they're bloody ignorant when it comes to trains - just as well they bounce easily off of a 100kg farang who happens to be exiting at the same time

[Shola]

One thing I noticed is that the education system is based on memorization and repetition.  This rigid cognitive process never allows the internal analytical dialogue to develop we have with ourselves when confronted with decisions to make throughout the day.

If information to repeat is not spoon fed, confusion is often the result and often an impulsive act will follow.  The lack of this internal dialogue to the extent that Westerners are educated with is distinct and yes, you can generalize.  Generalizing is exactly what research is based on.  There are distinct differences between cultures that one can generalize about.  Of course there are exceptions, but exceptions do not negate the majority that you are generalizing about.

So, when you see people on motorbikes for example that jump out in traffic or other what we consider foolish things, think about the thought process involved and whether that person reacted impulsively or thought about his act.  Usually it will be an impulsive act with little regard for the consequences. 

When out and about, keep asking yourself why you think people do the things they do.  Like walk down the center of a sidewalk with an umbrella poking everyone in the eyes who don't jump out of the way.  Or why people on the BTS platform never wait until riders get off before they try to rush in through the crowd when it would be easier to just wait about 5 seconds.  Look for impulsivity.

Just a simplified version of my years of observing and analyzing cognitive schema of the culture.  Know that observation is not a judgement.  I have not said it was better or worse (heading off the flames).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

After reading your post twice, I can say yes I agree with the point you make.

BTW you write like a book I once tried to read by 'C.Jung'!!

Any experience in the field of Psychology by any chance??

[No beleeeeve!]

Good observation. I have worked as a research psychologist and currently as a clinical psychotherapist at a psychiatric hospital (in the US now, my eight hospital position). I lived in Thailand and Korea for three years. The thrust of my move there was to study Asian culture from a clinical psych point of view.

My initial plan was to go for one year and it turned into three. I liked it that much. Unfortunately, I was unable to work in my field and that is what led to my return to the States last year.

My observations and statements I make here are usually grounded in psychology. Also, working as a researcher trained me to formulate generalizations and trends of human behavior minus the knee jerk reactions.

Not to say all that I write will everyone agree on, but at least you know that I combine life experience with clinical skills to write what I do.

Jung, you ask? Well, I studied one of his colleagues, Freud, more. I use mostly cognitive psych, a tiny little bit of psychoanalytic theory, and behaviorism to do most of my therapy work.

Oppsss, sorry about the "me" post here. Ask me a something about psych and I ramble like a school girl before prom!

[aaaaaa]

...Not to say all that I write will everyone agree on, but at least you know that I combine life experience with clinical skills to write what I do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, but at least it is much better to read / hear from someone who does have some solid knowledge of this subject matter - unlike many others who are trying to comment on it and even convince others in their opinion about it without any proper understanding of such things as those which were raised here.

thanks, it was interesting to know your experience. hopefully you'd be around and would make contributions about some similar issues regarding Thai / asian people....

oh, and thanks for showing your humility. the quality usually typical for people with real knowledge who know their level / position and don't have / need to bluff about it or try to show off anything. this what personally I appreatiate very much !

[udon]

One thing I noticed is that the education system is based on memorization and repetition.  This rigid cognitive process never allows the internal analytical dialogue to develop we have with ourselves when confronted with decisions to make throughout the day.

If information to repeat is not spoon fed, confusion is often the result and often an impulsive act will follow.  The lack of this internal dialogue to the extent that Westerners are educated with is distinct and yes, you can generalize.  Generalizing is exactly what research is based on.  There are distinct differences between cultures that one can generalize about.  Of course there are exceptions, but exceptions do not negate the majority that you are generalizing about.

So, when you see people on motorbikes for example that jump out in traffic or other what we consider foolish things, think about the thought process involved and whether that person reacted impulsively or thought about his act.  Usually it will be an impulsive act with little regard for the consequences. 

When out and about, keep asking yourself why you think people do the things they do.  Like walk down the center of a sidewalk with an umbrella poking everyone in the eyes who don't jump out of the way.  Or why people on the BTS platform never wait until riders get off before they try to rush in through the crowd when it would be easier to just wait about 5 seconds.  Look for impulsivity.

Just a simplified version of my years of observing and analyzing cognitive schema of the culture.  Know that observation is not a judgement.  I have not said it was better or worse (heading off the flames).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

at last..... now I know a bit more about the Thai "thinking" process.

I have always thought that the Thai education system is/was seriously flawed.

Thank you.

Edited March 5, 2005 by udon

[No beleeeeve!]

Thanks for the kind words. I am glad to see that people here can differentiate between observation and judgement. To say someone acts a certain way does not mean one is judging it to be good or bad. For example, if you say a man walks in the middle of the street during rush hour (and it is true), it is an observation with no value added, therefore, no judgement.

When you add positive or negative values to something it can often be considered a judgement. This is a key point when discussing issues here.

That being said, I do place a large amount of blame on the education system in Thailand for the behaviors we have discussed here. Having worked in a number of such institutions in both Korea and Thailand, critical thinking is not only 'not' taught, it is discouraged. When I was contracted to develop a school for a Thai company I really shocked the owners when I gave a review of the school I would develop for them.

When speaking of teaching the young ones critical thinking, you would have thought I was suggesting animal sacrifices at the altar of Satan. "Just make sure they have fun" I was told "Can't you just play games with them?" That was a similar theme I usually encountered.

As to the accuracy of my observations, that remains to be seen. Most people are okay with the content I write about, but the bluntness of it takes time to digest for some. I have patients who wouldn't ever have me over for Sunday dinner but they keep coming back because they say they are getting better. That's all that counts to me.

Now on the board here, I just try to share the lessons I learned while in Asia and help some great people avoid the 'landmines' I often stepped on. Believe me, I stepped on a lot of them! Peace....

[srisatch]

Thanks for the kind words.  I am glad to see that people here can differentiate between observation and judgement.  To say someone acts a certain way does not mean one is judging it to be good or bad.  For example, if you say a man walks in the middle of the street during rush hour (and it is true), it is an observation with no value added, therefore, no judgement.

When you add positive or negative values to something it can often be considered a judgement.  This is a key point when discussing issues here. 

That being said, I do place a large amount of blame on the education system in Thailand for the behaviors we have discussed here.  Having worked in a number of such institutions in both Korea and Thailand, critical thinking is not only 'not' taught, it is discouraged.  When I was contracted to develop a school for a Thai company I really shocked the owners when I gave a review of the school I would develop for them. 

When speaking of teaching the young ones critical thinking, you would have thought I was suggesting animal sacrifices at the altar of Satan.  "Just make sure they have fun" I was told "Can't you just play games with them?"  That was a similar theme I usually encountered.

As to the accuracy of my observations, that remains to be seen.  Most people are okay with the content I write about, but the bluntness of it takes time to digest for some.  I have patients who wouldn't ever have me over for Sunday dinner but they keep coming back because they say they are getting better.  That's all that counts to me.

Now on the board here, I just try to share the lessons I learned while in Asia and help some great people avoid the 'landmines' I often stepped on.  Believe me, I stepped on a lot of them!  Peace....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Impulse? Do you mean..acting without thinking? Or do you mean "Can't wait?" Or somethingt else...wasn't there something in all those great men about 'deferred gratification?'..concept seems to me lacking in Muang Thai!?

I think I read somewhere...(and I stressed too I was not making judgments...the whole point about the concept 'Single Minded' is that it is, I think, value free, or at worst mildly on the judgmental + side....whereas 'Selfish' is not)

....was it Theodore Zeldin?..an assertion that......in earlier times in Europe/..US I suppose too...people were more...'febrile', "quicker to express emotions"... well if you were dead by 32 makes sense...

Seems to me most education systems have been well analysed by Marxists/Pseudo Marxists/Neo Marxists/Conservatives neo and others!! and a LOT of others...not much to do with 'education and learning' whatever that might be..but all to do with perpetuation of the hegemony of the state.etc...Why does Thaksin devote no time and money to education.??..does not suit at the moment to have a vibrant, educated, enquiring, critical work force...might disrupt the production line....?

I have not understood why you think this is anything to do with the education system...which is agree awful, but also recent, chaotic, and not experienced beyond the age of 12 by many...my observation suggests that this is developed at home from an early age...?? Or not?

1

[udon]

I've always had the impression that a lot of Thais cannot grasp the concept of "cause & effect"!

[No beleeeeve!]

Well, by 12 years of age, much of our thinking process is formed. Actually, I think Freud said much our personality (among other cognitive processes) is formed by five years of age. I use up to ten years old in my clinical work. If you learn to repeat and mimic for 6-8 years in a culture that supports conformity to begin with, and are never exposed to critical thinking skills in an educational setting, it just isn't going to happen.

Yes, the same pattern is probably taught at home by people raised in the same culture. Combination of both avenues. Having worked in a number of levels of education in Korea and Thailand, I observed this first hand.

And yes, Toxin prefers an uneducated public, the better to keep in power. An educated public would boot his corrupt butt out in no time! I think that is pretty well known.

[Boon Mee]

Well, by 12 years of age, much of our thinking process is formed.  Actually, I think Freud said much our personality (among other cognitive processes) is formed by five years of age.

The judgement(s) you make w/regard to PM Toxin are more a BF Skinner school of analysis than Freudian...

In my humble opinion.

[Shola]

Good observation.  I have worked as a research psychologist and currently as a clinical psychotherapist at a psychiatric hospital (in the US now, my eight hospital position).  I lived in Thailand and Korea for three years.  The thrust of my move there was to study Asian culture from a clinical psych point of view. 

My initial plan was to go for one year and it turned into three.  I liked it that much.  Unfortunately, I was unable to work in my field and that is what led to my return to the States last year. 

My observations and statements I make here are usually grounded in psychology.  Also, working as a researcher trained me to formulate generalizations and trends of human behavior minus the knee jerk reactions.

Not to say all that I write will everyone agree on, but at least you know that I combine life experience with clinical skills to write what I do.

Jung, you ask?  Well, I studied one of his colleagues, Freud, more.  I use mostly cognitive psych, a tiny little bit of psychoanalytic theory, and behaviorism to do most of my therapy work.

Oppsss, sorry about the "me" post here.  Ask me a something about psych and I ramble like a school girl before prom!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very interesting No belieeeeve! I wish I had a few more cells in my noggin to understand the books that I've attempted to read on the subject! I am very interested in 'psych', I picked up the book 'On the Nature of the Psyche' by Jung unfortunatly the language was over my head!

I'm sure I'll give it another go at some point though!

BTW Who are your primary patients? Kids or adults?

[Abandon]

Well, by 12 years of age, much of our thinking process is formed. Actually, I think Freud said much our personality (among other cognitive processes) is formed by five years of age

Hmm - not sure of your angle there. For clinical purposes you are likely right, as clinical situations are usually more extreme, and also not such long term except for serious mental/character disorders.

However for regular folk I don't think that that is really accurate. In my own case it wasn't, though the learning process has been fairly lengthy. Also work with reformed prisoners shows the huge degree of change that can occur, even with those seriously abused as children.

Also, topically, I have seen one Thai girl I know go to university in the UK and after 4 years had totally changed - very critical thinking now in the good sense, open minded and a real sea change from the normal 'Thai' character. Even her mother complains to me that 'she turned into a ******* farang'.

You mention the Freudian angle, but Freudian analysis is not so much mainstream psychology as it once was. The humanist school of thought for example places much more emphasis on human aspiration as the leader of character and even cognition, than childhood influences. The fact that many people do not change is not to say that they cannot, or that their character has been set in stone from youth.

I also trained in psychology, though have never really worked in the field as beleeeeve has. I much admired the work and theories of George Kelly who showed that change really just depends on changing ones 'constructs' or ways of interpreting the world. His work with the Dust Bowl farmers showed that such an approach is effective.

Judging this thread through Kelly (and later constuctivists) the way of thinking is really a matter of ones mental frameworks (constructs) and what 'works' - your constructs may not me terribly accurate, but so long as you get by on them they tend to stick. However they can and are changed through therapy, experience, or crisis.

Buddhism also holds the same position - that ones kamma influences the present, but INTENTION is the forerunner of making new kamma.

[udon]

No beleeeeve!

did you ever get the chance to discuss "face" with your Thai 'contacts' and why we in the West associate it with lieing and don't like or understand it?

ie, honesty is best even if it can cause that hated word.... confrontation!

cheers.....

[phuketsiam]

I've always had the impression that a lot of Thais cannot grasp the concept of "cause & effect"!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've noticed that too

[No beleeeeve!]

Ramble alert! I just went back and read my post here and excuse the long windedness of it...

Much or most of what Freud wrote about has been downplayed or disproved, so to speak, but there are kernels of his work that still hold up. I mostly use cognitive psych in my work anyway, but his thoughts on personality development I mentioned are not an absolute and I didn't write it as such. I'd say about 60-80% of the underlying schema are formed by 10-12 years of age. It varies. Freud was much more restrictive in his time frame, my numbers are based on my experience treating thousands of patients. You have to understand that this doens't mean every little detail is formed, just the structural thinking process. The very basic stuff...the cognitive framework only.

Additionally, yes, people change. I am talkng about the underlying schema, not that you are the same from ten years old until death. It is not helpful to think in absolutes like that and I would never write it as such.

As for mental illness, it is not really a situation of extreme cases at all. If you understand the psychobiological/psychosocial model of psychiatric causation, you wouldn't say that. You could have a genetic predisposition to psychiatric illness, for example, just like a person with schizophrenia yet not have the illness, you are similiar to that person in many ways.

Many people think the mentally ill are non-functioning people and walk around talking to themselves and are very different than you or I. Quite the opposite in many, many cases. Many of my very ill patients are also functioning in society when properly treated. Much like you may need heart or blood pressure medicine a person with schizophrenia needs risperdal or other meds and they can go to work, school, or other activities in society much like you or I.

Additionally, if you had any research methods courses or did any research you would not use exceptions to negate the rule. In behavioral sciences we achieve statistical significance in the 50-60% and up range. Actually I have been published with work that had lower significance, but the point is that if something happens six of ten times, we can generalize from the sample to the population under study. So, four of ten times it does not happen. Those four do not negate the other six.

One Thai girl who changed...well, great for her (sincerely) but I am not too convinced with that type of evidence. I don't mean to be a stick in the mud, but my training really forces me to think in terms of numbers when seeking supporting evidence so we may not see eye to eye on hanging your hat on one case.

Your prisoner example doesn't support that they changed their early years programming, just that they are able to manage their undesirable behavior that is a fall out of dysfunction early childhood. Much like how an alcoholic who avoids bars so he doesn't relapse hasn't eliminated the urge to drink, he just eliminated the opportunity to potentially act out on that urge. Its called management, not a cure or even a change of anything other than changing opportunities, not cognition.

Yes, saving face is a big problem between the cultures. In the West we hold honesty as a paramount value where in the East is is not so concrete and often a mere convenience. Did I talk with people about it? Sure. Did it change their thoughts on it? Not anyone (Thai that is) I talked to in Thailand changed. Cultural programming in this situation is difficult at best to drastically change. If someone asked us to disregard truth and to lie when we feel it is helpful, many/most people in the West would not be able to change this for the rest of their life. I know that I couldn't change that part of me and I am trained in cognitive restructuring.

I hope that wasn't too off topic. Hope I covered all the points raised! Peace...

[Abandon]

Ramble alert!

Well the fact that 90% of people do not really change their structural thinking might make nice stats, but is not no proof that they can't/won't. Kelly (my hero)(oops, jungian slip ) Rogers, Adler etc.... all went well away from Freuds childhood influence ideas. Not that they are not good for analysis, but just not so accepting of the human capacity for aspiration and change. I am very much in the camp of the teleologic schools myself. The only thing I really liked of Freuds was the defense mechanisms (as expanded by Anna Freud).

Talking of which, you leapt to your own defense purdy darn quick there..

Tell me have you been like that since 10-12 years?

But we are getting a bit far Freud vs. George Kelly ??? We could go on and on (which would be fun) but we'd be boring the others.

Bowing to your experience, I'd only add that other Psychologists than Freudian ones did hold that the basic cognitive structures are adjustable.

[srisatch]

Well, by 12 years of age, much of our thinking process is formed.  Actually, I think Freud said much our personality (among other cognitive processes) is formed by five years of age.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The judgement(s) you make w/regard to PM Toxin are more a BF Skinner school of analysis than Freudian...

In my humble opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What does that mean?

It is a fact that TRT is not spending money on Education. Question: Why? What has Skinner to say about Economic decisions of Governments? Please tell!!

[srisatch]

And another thing!!!!

I have not kept up on the thrust of 21st century Psychology...but looks like I am not alone...SO:

Can I close a topic I opened?!!

This is going to be enormously long! Can we tolerate it?…Probably not me!

I was not thinking of getting into a great debate about thinking/culture/behavior…but, of course, if one starts asking questions…based upon observations of different behaviors in different cultures, and then moves on to trying to describe and analyse those behaviors…!! Let alone make ‘judgments’!

Let me return to square 1. It seems to me: observation!. That Thais and Westerners do not ‘entirely’ think in the same way. Never mind other parts of the world..! Now that is not to say that our genetic make-up is any different, nor actually to say that our ‘cognitive processes’ are different either. But we will not necessarily, for whatever reason, behave in the same way, nor think in the same way, about situations that present themselves. And when we ‘generate behavior’ much in the same way as we ‘generate language’…Thais and others are not going to generate the same thing.??

My question was, with reference to the construct of ‘Thailand’…whatever that might be:

Why is this?

And

What is the description/nature/determinants of this difference?

Let alone consequences..!

Let alone, too, how one adapts to it, lives with it, changes, to minimise the frictions that are caused by MY ‘difference’!

Now on to other questions!! QUOTES:

“One thing I noticed is that the education system is based on memorization and repetition. This rigid cognitive process never allows the internal analytical dialogue to develop we have with ourselves when confronted with decisions to make throughout the day.”

What do you mean ‘noticed’? Is this observation? Quantitative recording of behavior?? Who says ‘memorisation and repetition’ is a ‘rigid’ process? Many societies have evolved precisely because of the preservation of oral traditions.

“Internal dialogue”

Are you saying Thai people do not have an internal dialogue? If you are and if you are not..how do you know? Are Thai Internal dialogues, if they exist, different from ‘Westerners’ Internal dialogues?

“There are distinct differences between cultures that one can generalize about”

Which cultures, what differences? What generalisations? Based upon what ‘theories’?.

“Usually it will be an impulsive act with little regard for the consequences”.

Why would you ‘assume’ that an impulsive act is taken ‘with little..(not no I notice!) regard for the consequences? Maybe the ‘actor’ has some experience of risk??

“Observing and Analyzing cognitive schema of the culture”

Where and what are these analyses and observations? What are the cognitive schema of, let us say, Thai, English and American culture? A lot of twaddle was written in the 50s and 60s by Hanks and others about this…has it changed?

“Jung, you ask? Well, I studied one of his colleagues, Freud, more. I use mostly cognitive psych, a tiny little bit of psychoanalytic theory, and behaviorism to do most of my therapy work.”

Yea . well I would say behaviourism is your problem!!

“Aaaaa: proper understanding of such things as those which were raised here”

Just because he is claiming I would say ‘spurious’ academic ‘qualifications’ you don’t have to believe it. Sounds to me as though s/he is rooted in very old fashioned psychology!

“Having worked in a number of such institutions in both Korea and Thailand, critical thinking is not only 'not' taught, it is discouraged”

My observation is quite the opposite. Critical thinking, in so far as it threatens social cohesion etc is not encouraged. When it comes to daily and imaginative life…not the same thing. I think you confuse the state mantras with reality.

“Well, by 12 years of age, much of our thinking process is formed. Actually, I think Freud said much our personality (among other cognitive processes) is formed by five years of age. I use up to ten years old in my clinical work. If you learn to repeat and mimic for 6-8 years in a culture that supports conformity to begin with, and are never exposed to critical thinking skills in an educational setting, it just isn't going to happen.”

Chances of a Thai child being exposed to ‘repeat and mimic’ for 6-8 years before age of 12….minimal…as to being exposed in an ‘educational setting’….!!

”Yes, the same pattern is probably taught at home by people raised in the same culture. Combination of both avenues. Having worked in a number of levels of education in Korea and Thailand, I observed this first hand”.

I like the use of ‘probably’

“Additionally, yes, people change”

They sure do, without the help of shrinks and with their help…but they DO change!!

“In behavioral sciences we achieve statistical significance in the 50-60% and up range. Actually I have been published with work that had lower significance, but the point is that if something happens six of ten times, we can generalize from the sample to the population under study. So, four of ten times it does not happen. Those four do not negate the other six.”

You believe that..that is why I believe nothing you say

“If someone asked us to disregard truth and to lie when we feel it is helpful, many/most people in the West would not be able to change this for the rest of their life. I know that I couldn't change that part of me and I am trained in cognitive restructuring”

And cognitive ‘restructuring’ is what?

See today’s papers about the tsunami report…for ‘lying when we feel it is helpful’

[Abandon]

Whew! I came out of that unscathed!!

I'm shutting up while the going is good.

[Khun Larry]

well, I think first of all - we shouldn't generalise coz not everybody is same.

some things can be same or similar, but not all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you are agreeing or disagreeing with yourself?

[Khun Larry]

Thai Single-Mindedness? Self-Absorption?-Self-Centredness: Generalisations?

And the difficulties with noticing things and explaining.

I would just like to understand!

Are Thais more self-obsessed than ‘Westerners’? Or are they more Single Minded as has been argued about Chinese people? Has this anything to do with things like Thais being apparently unable to ask questions like-which is the road to anywhere? Or where is the toy shop? I know there is a difficulty with such questions as it is puts someone in an awkward position if they have to say they ‘don’t know’. And even if they do know they could not explain to you! If my wife has something on her mind we could drive past a herd of pink elephants playing trombones and when asked she would say, truthfully, she had not noticed. And is it anything to do with going into a shop and picking up and buying the first item needed-no shopping around?

Are there any other reasons apart from inebriation, lack of imagination or self obsession/self importance?  that lead you to drive a Pickup/Motorbike out of a soi in front of a raft of oncoming vehicles and then down the road on the wrong side, wsometimes in the outside lane, to get to see your friend/the hairdresser or whatever. Is this to do with it too? There is more..but what do YOU think?!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent post. Deserving of an honorary Ph.D. in Thai Culture from Kaosarn University.

However, as always, there are no good explanations for your astute observations at this moment.

[udon]

To No beleeeeve & srisatch.

Would either of you marry a Thai girl?

Yes or no.

Me.... No.

[No beleeeeve!]

Well, since you asked (I would never push this out there otherwise).

No, I would never marry a Thai girl.

I did have a Chinese g/f who was raised in Thailand (100% Chinese by race, Thai by citizenship) and dated Thai women from very educated women to the hi-so set, and never really felt any connection.

I am marrying a Chinese girl (from China) who was born and raised in China. She had never been to Thailand until she met me. She did find much of what we speak of here on this board to be true and also quite odd.

It is just my prefence based on what I need to get intellectually out of a relationship (this has nothing to do with what others look for, so save your flames for something more important). My preference is not a judgement of any sort. Plus, my taste for women physically, leans more towards Korean, Japanese, Chinese women. Again, just a preference. I know what works for me, and that same thing may not work for others...that is great and to each his own.

Regarding someone slamming my "spurious" background (if that was towards someone else, then disregard the following), it is not my style to thump my chest about my experience and education in this field, but if you are that hard pressed to investigate my qualifications and insult me, feel free to PM your background in psychiatry and/or psychology to me, and I will I will gladly state my background in return.

Regarding going over all my other points and commenting on them, my little break is over. I don't have time right now...I have patients I have to go treat.

Have a great day!