Pm Rejects Daad Claims Songkran Rioting Planned By Govt

[justanothercybertosser]

On the other hand, if she had put forth some logical arguments such as why the red shirt movement is more than just about Thaksin and perhaps even concede that some of people in the red shirt movement have gotten out of hand (i.e. the violence on Songkran, the nitpicking of whether Abhisit was in the car or not, etc.), she would appear to more moderate and be treated with more respect.

Am I hoping for too much here?

Please be realistic. Even when one says what you ask here for, one gets treated with impoliteness and disrespect by the yellow mob. Just look at the exchange between me and ThNiner...

Fact though is, she is far more polite and refrains from the ad hominem attacks the yellow mob uses here. And that makes her posts a far better quality. I would also suggest to take in consideration that her English is not as good as that of the majority of her opponents, and it is a lot more difficult to express oneself in a language that is not ones native language, or related to ones native language.

Anyhow - people have different opinions, some more elaborate than others, but there is no excuse for the display of bad manners by her opponents each and every single post she makes attracts. Additionally - most of her opponents display the same one-sided views she does, only are their yellow. They are just the majority. And what they do is generally defined as mobbing - a very disgusting aspect of internet forums.

[justanothercybertosser]

That no one has even been charged, let alone convicted, let alone connected to the yellow shirts is besides his point.

It is not besides the point - it is the main reason for Red Shirt claims of double standards ("Song Mattathan").

[sriracha john]

That no one has even been charged, let alone convicted, let alone connected to the yellow shirts is besides his point.

It is not besides the point - it is the main reason for Red Shirt claims of double standards ("Song Mattathan").

Well they don't need to be found, tried, and convicted... you've already done the job.

[ThNiner]

the very first link is very conclusive...

The dead man found "murdered" in an empty warehouse at Don Mueang Airport might have been a member of the security force for the People's Alliance for Democracy

==========================

There's no point, ThNiner... these cases of yellow shirt attacks of which he speaks have all been "finalized" beyond any doubt, eg. the blue truck, the drunken Red demonstrator that died, etc.

That no one has even been charged, let alone convicted, let alone connected to the yellow shirts is besides his point.

True. I don't even know if that can even be considered circumstantial evidence. I'd give him the death of Narongsak and some redshirt dude who got beaten up at Makkawanrangsan bridge. But, like Khun Plus's said, those were hardly the sustained, directed and systematic campagin of viloence which the reds have publically called for and carried out. And CyberTosser wants the gov't to punish both yellows and reds the same way? How absurd is that?

Edited May 12, 2009 by ThNiner

[justanothercybertosser]

True. I don't even know if that can even be considered circumstantial evidence. I'd give him the death of Narongsak and some redshirt dude who got beaten up at Makkawanrangsan bridge. But, like Khun Plus's said, those were hardly the sustained, directed and systematic campagin of viloence which the reds have publically called for and carried out. And CyberTosser wants the gov't to punish both yellows and reds the same way? How absurd is that?

And the guns found in searches, and fired, the attack at Vibhavadi Soi 3, etc.?

You are about as bad in terms of one sided propaganda as Koo82, but could learn a lot in terms of manners from her.

Anyhow, have a nice day. I am through with discussing the issue with you.

[ThNiner]

True. I don't even know if that can even be considered circumstantial evidence. I'd give him the death of Narongsak and some redshirt dude who got beaten up at Makkawanrangsan bridge. But, like Khun Plus's said, those were hardly the sustained, directed and systematic campagin of viloence which the reds have publically called for and carried out. And CyberTosser wants the gov't to punish both yellows and reds the same way? How absurd is that?

And the guns found in searches, and fired, the attack at Vibhavadi Soi 3, etc.?

You are about as bad in terms of one sided propaganda as Koo82, but could learn a lot in terms of manners from her.

Anyhow, have a nice day. I am through with discussing the issue with you.

All right, bye bye. And sorry for having shown disrespect (by mentioning Jatuporn and ROTFL) to someone.

[sbk]

Baiting and inflammatory posts have been deleted.

Enough bickering guys. If you can't keep it civil then I will start handing out suspensions as I, for one, am heartily tired of the constant bickering, baiting and flaming going on in this forum

[Plus]

I, for one, am heartily tired of the constant bickering, baiting and flaming going on in this forum..

You speak as if you are new here.

Do you honestly hope that it will ever change?

Just a question about your personal opinion, not a discussion of moderation issues.

[sbk]

Nope, but I figure if someone doesn't step in and require civil, adult behavior from time to time it would be far worse than it already is.

[justanothercybertosser]

PAD has had, in their after coup incarnation used violence increasingly, and their admitted aim is "New Politics", which is a overthrow of the democratic system of Thailand.

PAD took over the govt house and later the airport wihout use of violence, simply pushing numbers of people forward.

Reds were at that stage during pre-Songkran blockades, annoying but peaceful and non-violent. Songkran has changed all that.

And "new politics" proposal is NOT an overthrow of the democratic system, it was an idea for the society to discuss.

The Blue Shirts have been a major factor in the process of escalation. I would even go so far, that without the Blue Shirt attacks no Sonkran Riots would have happened.

It should be high time that all, including the government, the Red Shirts and PAD begin to admit that they have to carry equally responsibility for the mess Thailand is in now. That would be a first step for reconciliation.

So far all only point fingers at their opponents.

New Politics, by the way, was not a proposal for society to discuss. It was a highly undemocratic agenda for PAD supporters to discuss, while calling the remainder of society too uneducated to take part in this "discussion".

Edited May 12, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[Plus]

The Blue Shirts have been a major factor in the process of escalation. I would even go so far, that without the Blue Shirt attacks no Sonkran Riots would have happened.

I could accept that blue pissed reds off into storming Royal Cliff, but riots in Bangkok?

admit that they have to carry equally responsibility

So, in one breath you exonerate reds of Songkran riots and talk about accepting responsibility. How can I take you seriously?

agenda for PAD supporters to discuss, while calling the remainder of society too uneducated to take part in this "discussion".

So not a call for overthrow of democratic system of government you accused them earlier?

And, of course, it's absolute nonsense about excluding remainder of society from this discussion.

But, honestly, I don't expect any logic from your posts [see the "responsibilit" part].

[ThNiner]

New Politics, by the way, was not a proposal for society to discuss.

Tosser, it was. And it's also been discussed by the society, and the PAD has changed it along the way.

without the Blue Shirt attacks no Sonkran Riots would have happened.

How come during the Songkran riots, there was hardly any mention or demands about the "attacks"? Weird that I only remember that the reds demands during Songkran riots were the gov't to resign, new election, Abhisit to resign, Privy Council to resign, and Thaksin to return? Weird ehh?

[justanothercybertosser]

The Blue Shirts have been a major factor in the process of escalation. I would even go so far, that without the Blue Shirt attacks no Sonkran Riots would have happened.

I could accept that blue pissed reds off into storming Royal Cliff, but riots in Bangkok?

admit that they have to carry equally responsibility

So, in one breath you exonerate reds of Songkran riots and talk about accepting responsibility. How can I take you seriously?

agenda for PAD supporters to discuss, while calling the remainder of society too uneducated to take part in this "discussion".

So not a call for overthrow of democratic system of government you accused them earlier?

And, of course, it's absolute nonsense about excluding remainder of society from this discussion.

But, honestly, I don't expect any logic from your posts [see the "responsibilit" part].

I have not exonerated the Red Shirts. I pointed out that there are major contributing factors to the riots. The largest contributing factor were the Blue Shirts. Without the Blue Shirts no storming of Royal Cliff, no emergency decree, no arrest of Arisaman, no attack on Abhsist's car, etc. In short - a chain event of action and reaction, mostly one idiotic decision by each side followed by another, resulting in things reaching the stage of being out of control.

Secondly, the occupation of government house and the airport, the use of arms are what constitutes a violent overthrow of the state, and not just a discussion. The discussion part of "New Politics" did exclude large sectors of society - the many people that still support Thaksin, and all outspoken anti PAD democracy activists.

And as to you last comment, thanks for the flame received. Your point would have been much more "logic" without the flame.

[ThNiner]

I have not exonerated the Red Shirts. I pointed out that there are major contributing factors to the riots.

I have seen you only mentioned one. What's the others? And what drove the reds to move their protest to Pattaya in the first place? To welcome ASEAN+3, +6 leaders to Thailand?

Edited May 12, 2009 by ThNiner

[justanothercybertosser]

I have not exonerated the Red Shirts. I pointed out that there are major contributing factors to the riots.

I have seen you only mentioned one. What's the others? And what drove the reds to move their protest to Pattaya in the first place? To welcome ASEAN=3, =6 leaders to Thailand?

Another major factor is that the Red Shirt leaders have overestimated their ability to control their protesters, have underestimated the level of anger under many ordinary Red Shirts. Thaksin's additional whipping up of the emotions have of course contributed as well. Much of their political message though is correct, but not their protest strategies that have led to the riots.

That does not exonerate the government though either.

[ThNiner]

Another major factor is that the Red Shirt leaders have overestimated their ability to control their protesters, have underestimated the level of anger under many ordinary Red Shirts. Thaksin's additional whipping up of the emotions have of course contributed as well. Much of their political message though is correct, but not their protest strategies that have led to the riots.

That does not exonerate the government though either.

I assume that you are a fan of DStation. So I guess you didn't miss the parts before the riots where almost every person and their dogs on the red shirt stage were calling out for Abhisit's head and other kinds of violence. That all happened before Songkran riots and the so-called blue shirt attacks. (Just to let you know that the police (your police) have been pressured into videotaping all these.) Didn't all these make the blue-shirt attacks or more less a sorry excuse from the reds to justify their mayhem? And also in case your missed it, your dear red shirt leaders also have already claimed that none who caused viloence and deaths during Songkran riots were the real reds. So how's your sorry explannation about the bule shirt attacks inciting the riots make any sense under these circumstances?

Huh?

Edited May 12, 2009 by ThNiner

[Plus]

Without the Blue Shirts no storming of Royal Cliff, no emergency decree, no arrest of Arisaman, no attack on Abhsist's car, etc.

Yeah, I bet 99% of Bangkok rioters haven't seen a single blue shirt themselves, but it's so convenient to blame them now.

the occupation of government house and the airport, the use of arms are what constitutes a violent overthrow of the state,

No it isn't. It's just occupation of government house and the airport - PAD was protesting against the government, which is only one part of the state machinery, and PAD didn't hunt for the Prime Minister to physically bring government downfall. Reds went for all of it - from Privy Council to the military to the courts to the government.

[ThNiner]

The likes of jatuporn, Nattawut and Weera (plus koo82) have been denying all along that any of the violence during Songkran riots was done by the hands of the peace loving and democracy worshipping red protesters. Now, Tosser, is saying that the reds had to do so because they got attacked by the blue shirts.

I'm really confused now. What exactly do you guys want people to believe then? Any? As long as Thaksin and the reds can be exonerated?? Right?

[Samuian]

The Blue Shirts have been a major factor in the process of escalation. I would even go so far, that without the Blue Shirt attacks no Sonkran Riots would have happened.

It should be high time that all, including the government, the Red Shirts and PAD begin to admit that they have to carry equally responsibility for the mess Thailand is in now. That would be a first step for reconciliation.

So far all only point fingers at their opponents.

yes and the army did disguise in red shirts, Abhisit's government aimed

to make the demonstration more violent, the government ordered the gas tank trucks

into the compound at din daeng, the buses were lit up by secret service agents,

the cars of Abhisit and his minister smashed up by the blue shirts,

the radio and TV transmissions of "Truth Today" are intercepted and manipulated,

the Themasek deal was in fact brokered by the army and all the other cases are

manufactured by the biased judicial system, because everyone envies the success

of Thailands only genuine great and honest business man,

the whole thing is a plot to defame Mr.Thaksin and to frame the red shirt movement!

Because they, only this movement is founded by the most honest people, the only ones who

can bring order about the chaos, wealth for all and eliminate poverty once and forever and

have "real, genuine democratic" rule all the way into the last bamboo hut on the most remote paddy fields

in the Land of the Free!

sure, 100% as they promise........

happy family - one hand clap!

clap, clap, clapppp........

...and this is NOT a giant fallacy?

Edited May 12, 2009 by Samuian

[justanothercybertosser]

I assume that you are a fan of DStation.

This is inane. If i would be a "fan of D-station" would i possibly have made those accusations against the Red Shirts? For Christ's sake, read my posts you reply to before making outlandish accusations here.

As to D-Station, either both D-Station and ASTV have to be closed, or none of them. Letting one be on air, while closing the other stinks of double standard.

Edited May 12, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[justanothercybertosser]

yes and the army did disguise in red shirts, Abhisit's government aimed

(further blather deleted)

Utter rubbish. I have said none of the above. Read my posts before coming up with completely misplaced sarcy comments.

For the record - all evidence points to the fact that the Red Shirts have burned the buses, and committed the other acts of violence you mentioned. I have not questioned this.

Nevertheless, the Blue Shirts did attack the Red Shirts in Pattaya, and this is a fact, even though it might not suit your highly sanitized version of events.

Don't put me in a box that might suit you, but where i do not belong into.

[justanothercybertosser]

Without the Blue Shirts no storming of Royal Cliff, no emergency decree, no arrest of Arisaman, no attack on Abhsist's car, etc.

Yeah, I bet 99% of Bangkok rioters haven't seen a single blue shirt themselves, but it's so convenient to blame them now.

And you accuse me of having problems with logic?

99% of Red Shirts in Bangkok will most possibly have seen the footage of the Blue Shirt attacks as they happened in front of cameras, and the remainder will have heard of the news. Most of the participants in the Pattaya protest (several thousand) have seen the Blue Shirts (there were more than a few of them there), and the majority of those Red Shirts in Pattaya also participated in the Songkran riots.

The Blue Shirts are not just blamed now, they were blamed of the attacks and the escalation already then.

Edited May 12, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[ThNiner]

99% of Red Shirts in Bangkok will most possibly have seen the footage of the Blue Shirt attacks as they happened in front of cameras, and the remainder will have heard of the news. Most of the participants in the Pattaya protest (several thousand) have seen the Blue Shirts (there were more than a few of them there), and the majority of those Red Shirts in Pattaya also participated in the Songkran riots.

The Blue Shirts are not just blamed now, they were blamed of the attacks and the escalation already then.

And you still haven't answered these:

before the riots where almost every person and their dogs on the red shirt stage were calling out for Abhisit's head and other kinds of violence. That all happened before Songkran riots and the so-called blue shirt attacks. (Just to let you know that the police (your police) have been pressured into videotaping all these.) Didn't all these make the blue-shirt attacks or more less a sorry excuse from the reds to justify their mayhem?