What Is Considered Working?

[jlocke51432]

Hypothetically... if a foreigner in Thailand does all their work online for a foreign company and receives payment in a foreign bank account, should that person technically have a work permit while residing in Thailand even though the work and the payment has nothing to do with Thailand? Also, if that person happens to be living on a non-immigrant "O" visa with a valid (and happy) marriage to a Thai citizen, how are they to explain to immigration what they are doing in Thailand? How do they explain where the money comes from? Do they need to explain or just show that it's there? Are they just doing nothing and living with their wife? Surely immigration would have questions right?

[ubonjoe]

This from the labor act.

"work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages

or other benefit;

Immigration does not question where you get the money unless you use tax payment receipts to prove your income. To use this income you need a work permit to prove you are working legally.

Foreign earned income can only be proven by a letter from your emassy.

Money in the bank option. No questions asked about the source of the money.

I wasn't asked anything when I presented my income letter for my extension.

[robbiecia]

"work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages

or other benefit;

This is a HUGE grey area that really needs to be addressed by the appropriate authorities.

However, it is obviously left vague due to the money making opportunities the said law presents.

[spw888]

I'd say the rules are clear as a bell actually - yes, you should have a work permit & pay taxes, but if your company is not registered in Thailand there is probably no mechanism to do so.

The "working online" scenario and getting paid overseas would apply to almost every country, not just Thailand.

You should be able to get a "married to a Thai citizen" visa I believe, no need for a work permit as long as you keep your head down. I know several people working like this.

[Tafia]

This from the labor act.

"work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages

or other benefit;

Immigration does not question where you get the money unless you use tax payment receipts to prove your income. To use this income you need a work permit to prove you are working legally.

Foreign earned income can only be proven by a letter from your emassy.

Money in the bank option. No questions asked about the source of the money.

I wasn't asked anything when I presented my income letter for my extension.

1. Do you have to prove the money in bank came from outside the country?

2. Income - is it Gross or Net that is used to calculate and what exchange rate do the Embassy use?

3. Is the embassy letter accepted without question by immigration.

[abdulrahman]

This from the labor act.

"work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages

or other benefit;

Immigration does not question where you get the money unless you use tax payment receipts to prove your income. To use this income you need a work permit to prove you are working legally.

Foreign earned income can only be proven by a letter from your emassy.

Money in the bank option. No questions asked about the source of the money.

I wasn't asked anything when I presented my income letter for my extension.

1. Do you have to prove the money in bank came from outside the country?

2. Income - is it Gross or Net that is used to calculate and what exchange rate do the Embassy use?

3. Is the embassy letter accepted without question by immigration.

1)No

2)Up to your Embassy

3)normally,yes

[bkk_mike]

I took legal advice on this 9 years ago before I moved to Thailand.

Essentially, immigration only cares that you are in the country legally (i.e. on a 'O' visa for married to a Thai). They only care about work permits if you're on a 'B' visa.

In theory the department of Labour would care that you're working. However, as you're not working for a company in Thailand, you can't actually apply for a work permit without going through the whole process of setting up a company (that you can't own, unless you're American, using the treaty of Amity), having registered share capital, I think employees (although that's maybe changed), etc..

Even then, a work permit cannot be for your home address..

Basically, the advice I got was. If you're only working from home, over the internet, for a company abroad, that as you're not taking a job from a Thai, even the department of Labour won't care (unless you personally annoy someone influential enough to cause problems.) as you'd legally be in the same position as a tourist logging in to their office to check their email.

[ubonjoe]

1. Do you have to prove the money in bank came from outside the country?

2. Income - is it Gross or Net that is used to calculate and what exchange rate do the Embassy use?

3. Is the embassy letter accepted without question by immigration.

1. Not for an extension based upon marriage to a Thai.

2. Gross income is normal and it is all that is required by immigration. Embassies normally do the letter in your home countries currency. The exchange rate is immigrations responsibility. If your letter is in a currency that is not normally shown on the exchange rates posted in the newpapers or banks it would be advisable to have something that shows the current rate.

3. Yes

But their are some immigration offices (rogues) that want to see a bank book that shows some money in the account and regular deposits. Some (bigger rogues) even want a bank letter also.

[ubonjoe]

They only care about work permits if you're on a 'B' visa.

A B visa would be one that requries you to leave after 90 days and immigration would not have any involvment in it other than allowing you to enter the country.

If it is an extension of stay based upon employment it is required. You can get this with a non-o visa entry and the permit to stay obtained from the entry.

For an extension of stay based upon marriage to a Thai if you prove income by showing tax payments you would also need to show a work permit.

If you are married to a Thai it is possible for your wife to register a business as a sole trader. Then you can get a work permit working for the business.

To get a work permit if married to a Thai only requires half the company/business income and number of employees (2 vs 4) normally required.

[Arkady]

Clearly according to Thai law you are working in Thailand and, as such, should have a work permit and pay Thai tax on your income. On the other hand, they don't at present have any way of detecting you. Your foreign employer cannot get you a work permit and setting up a company or getting your wife to employ you as a sole trader is going to be a hassle and cost money in tax and administrative expenses. (BTW if you are American, you can work as a sole trader yourself under the treaty.) Also no guarantee that they will always give you a work permit to work for a small business. It is probably not really worth the bother, unless you need to have a record of working in Thailand for some reason, e.g. to apply for credit cards, a mortgage or something, or just want to be a good citizen and pay your tax legally. Working for a very small business will probably not help you with getting permanent residence, so that should not be a consideration. Ubonjoe's advice seems the most practical - to use the marriage visa and show a lump sum for renewals, not income.

[PatinBKk]

If working for a foreign company and being paid in a foreign bank I would assume that tax is already paid on that income. Does it mean that someone that is here on a two week holiday and picks up and replies to a few work emails requires a work permit...its a hard one....

[Maestro]

...Does it mean that someone that is here on a two week holiday and picks up and replies to a few work emails requires a work permit...

No.

--

Maestro

[Milo]

Even then, a work permit cannot be for your home address..

My work permit for home address, which doubles as business address, so must be a way around that one? Just leave it all in the hands of my overpriced accountant

[Jingthing]

Basically, the advice I got was. If you're only working from home, over the internet, for a company abroad, that as you're not taking a job from a Thai, even the department of Labour won't care (unless you personally annoy someone influential enough to cause problems.) as you'd legally be in the same position as a tourist logging in to their office to check their email.

I have been asserting the same for years (without your excellent details) but there always the terminally anal who will whine: but you are breaking the laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

Three words in cases like these: THEY DON'T CARE.

Don't believe? Mention one case where they have cared. I have asked before and NADA.

[Jimjim]

There was one guy harping on about how the Revenue Ministry (or whatever it's called) does care about this as they want you to pay Thai taxes even if the money is being made overseas, and he said they would gladly take your tax money and didn't care a wit about if you had a work permit as that wasn't their department and they didn't even care about reporting you, just wanted the money since in their view you're making it in Thailand since while you do that work on your computer you're sitting in the Kingdom of Thailand.

As for the Labour Department, it's been shown by several that they really don't care, as people have gone down to their office and been in this very situation and nothing could be worked out for them, and were told in no uncertain terms that nobody would bother them and to please not come back and just keep quiet about it, as they didn't even want to figure out to deal with it as it's a clear gray area (oxymoron?).

Then there are those posters that insist it's breaking the law and to not trust that the immigration police won't arrest you, yadda yadda yadda. So, take whatever advice you want but it's clear it's a gray area and a large majority of people doing this don't "get legal" and never have a problem. Some would argue that you should be 100% safe as if you're in a jail cell you won't be too happy about your situation and that you didn't set up a business here, etc. I would say the chances of anything happening to you are extremely low, less than .1% so the risk is up to you. I only say this because the word from the authorities has been to not worry about it, though some say there are different groups of authorities you have to worry about.

[MJP]

I took legal advice on this 9 years ago before I moved to Thailand.

Essentially, immigration only cares that you are in the country legally (i.e. on a 'O' visa for married to a Thai). They only care about work permits if you're on a 'B' visa.

In theory the department of Labour would care that you're working. However, as you're not working for a company in Thailand, you can't actually apply for a work permit without going through the whole process of setting up a company (that you can't own, unless you're American, using the treaty of Amity), having registered share capital, I think employees (although that's maybe changed), etc..

Even then, a work permit cannot be for your home address..

Basically, the advice I got was. If you're only working from home, over the internet, for a company abroad, that as you're not taking a job from a Thai, even the department of Labour won't care (unless you personally annoy someone influential enough to cause problems.) as you'd legally be in the same position as a tourist logging in to their office to check their email.

Thanks very much for that. It applies to me.

This is a daft question, I know. What about DIY on the wife's house?

[MJP]

There was one guy harping on about how the Revenue Ministry (or whatever it's called) does care about this as they want you to pay Thai taxes even if the money is being made overseas, and he said they would gladly take your tax money and didn't care a wit about if you had a work permit as that wasn't their department and they didn't even care about reporting you, just wanted the money since in their view you're making it in Thailand since while you do that work on your computer you're sitting in the Kingdom of Thailand.

As for the Labour Department, it's been shown by several that they really don't care, as people have gone down to their office and been in this very situation and nothing could be worked out for them, and were told in no uncertain terms that nobody would bother them and to please not come back and just keep quiet about it, as they didn't even want to figure out to deal with it as it's a clear gray area (oxymoron?).

Then there are those posters that insist it's breaking the law and to not trust that the immigration police won't arrest you, yadda yadda yadda. So, take whatever advice you want but it's clear it's a gray area and a large majority of people doing this don't "get legal" and never have a problem. Some would argue that you should be 100% safe as if you're in a jail cell you won't be too happy about your situation and that you didn't set up a business here, etc. I would say the chances of anything happening to you are extremely low, less than .1% so the risk is up to you. I only say this because the word from the authorities has been to not worry about it, though some say there are different groups of authorities you have to worry about.

I think they're probably just glad you are creating a flow of income/foreign exchange into Thailand.

[jantrevor]

There is a significant question that has not been addressed. If you are employed by an overseas company with no ties to Thailand what does your company use as an address for tax purposes? And to what country do they send the tax paid forms?

Can you set up a company in Macau (no income taxes) and then have the money transferred to Thailand?

There are limits to how much money you can bring into Thailand so how do you get your earnings into the country?

Jan

[Maestro]

...how do you get your earnings into the country?

For example wire transfer, ATM withdrawal. You can do that from a bank in your home country; no need to set up a company in a tax haven.

--

Maestro

[jantrevor]

So I make 200,000 baht a month (I actually make more than that but I pay taxes to the US). Do I want to pay ATM fees on a lot of withdrawals? Or a big wire transfer fee?

[Absingjul]

So I make 200,000 baht a month (I actually make more than that but I pay taxes to the US). Do I want to pay ATM fees on a lot of withdrawals? Or a big wire transfer fee?

Neither.

Option 1: Use Schwab Checking for ATM, all fees reimbursed.

Option 2: Route transfer through Bangkok Bank, New York. Fees only few hundred ฿.

[Tafia]

1. Do you have to prove the money in bank came from outside the country?

2. Income - is it Gross or Net that is used to calculate and what exchange rate do the Embassy use?

3. Is the embassy letter accepted without question by immigration.

1. Not for an extension based upon marriage to a Thai.

2. Gross income is normal and it is all that is required by immigration. Embassies normally do the letter in your home countries currency. The exchange rate is immigrations responsibility. If your letter is in a currency that is not normally shown on the exchange rates posted in the newpapers or banks it would be advisable to have something that shows the current rate.

3. Yes

But their are some immigration offices (rogues) that want to see a bank book that shows some money in the account and regular deposits. Some (bigger rogues) even want a bank letter also.

1.What if not married and here on 'retirement' visa do you have to prove the 800,000 has come from outside the country?

[Mario2008]

1.What if not married and here on 'retirement' visa do you have to prove the 800,000 has come from outside the country?

No, just that the money has been in your account for at least 2 months on the first application and 3 months on every next application. Yo will need a lette from the bank for this and your bankbook.

[Tafia]

Thanks Guys

[euro82]

Hello all

my company based in Switzerland proposed me to work online from Thailand, same situation as the PO, but I would be under a tourist visa.

The company actually asked me to send them an invoice every month as I would be hired as some sort of consultant. Do you think it's risky to mention my address in Thailand on the invoice?

Thanks a lot!

[ubonjoe]

Hello all

my company based in Switzerland proposed me to work online from Thailand, same situation as the PO, but I would be under a tourist visa.

The company actually asked me to send them an invoice every month as I would be hired as some sort of consultant. Do you think it's risky to mention my address in Thailand on the invoice?

Thanks a lot!

Since you may be doing something under the radar. It might be best to keep everything that way.

[chevyinasia]

Hi JLocke,

I've been living in Thailand now for four years with my farang wife who is employed in Thailand as a teacher. I, too, am on a Non "O" visa, without work permit. Or was, until 2007. The first two years, I was in very much the same situation -- working online for overseas clients. I'm the kind of guy who likes everything to be above board and legal, to do everything I can to make sure I'm not in the wrong. I very pointedly spoke to immigration officers about being a resident non-immigrant earning an income from overseas. Every time, the answer was that they don't care (they actually used the words "don't care") as long as I was not being paid by a person or entity based in Thailand, nor was my work (as per the given definition) for the benefit of such. I have since met many other expats who work in a similar fashion (one of whom writes scripts for porn movies) who reported that they received very similar answers from immigration and the labour department.

It seems as far as they're concerned, we're bringing money into Thailand. The immigration officers seem to know pretty clearly what the policy is, even if the wording (in English) is ambiguous.

[Jingthing]

they actually used the words "don't care"

Thank you!