'de'

[bina]

what is 'de' when used at end of phases like ' ou buree de' .... or 'kin de' referring to my leftover coffee in the cup..... i've been hearing it every day for two years but thought it was a thai version of the hebrew word 'ze' meaning : this....or it so today i asked my friend but was difficult for him to explain , just showed in context....

[PvtDick]

It doesn't really have meaning, but just tones down a command to make it less harsh.

[Firefoxx]

ดิ really shouldn't be used unless you're talking to a close friend or buddy. It shows very little respect for the other party. A similar word is ซิ.

This ดิ sounds the same but is different from the one used in ดิฉัน which is a very polite way to say "I" for women.

[bina]

firefox, i cant read thai, can u transliterate possibly, thanx..... and yes he is a very very close friend as well

pvtdick,

but just tones down a command to make it less harsh.

-- isn't that 'na', like 'kin khou na' ? as in: eat please (a mild command).....

[PvtDick]

Yes, similar. But as pointed out above, more familiar. Not rude, but only used among people who are close.

[sabaijai]

It's one of three commonly used imperative markers. Imperatives are expressions ranging from appeals to commands, depending on register (politeness/formality).

The most polite one in everyday conversation, as Firefoxx pointed out, is ซิ ([H]si). With close friends and relatives you can use ดิ ([L]di, or you've written it, 'de').

More informal yet, for close mates only, is เหอะ ([L]hoe, similar to English expression 'huh' but short and low), also เถอะ ([L]thoe; same short vowel as the previous), which should only be used when the person you're talking understands you're just kidding around. Otherwise it's reserved to show you really mean business, with the connotation of anger.

Perhaps there are others, too, but these are the ones I hear in everyday speech.

[meadish_sweetball]

It's one of three commonly used imperative markers. Imperatives are expressions ranging from appeals to commands, depending on register (politeness/formality).

The most polite one in everyday conversation, as Firefoxx pointed out, is ซิ ([H]si). With close friends and relatives you can use ดิ ([L]di, or you've written it, 'de').

More informal yet, for close mates only, is เหอะ ([L]hoe, similar to English expression 'huh' but short and low), also เถอะ ([L]thoe; same short vowel as the previous), which should only be used when the person you're talking understands you're just kidding around. Otherwise it's reserved to show you really mean business, with the connotation of anger.

Perhaps there are others, too, but these are the ones I hear in everyday speech.

I am a bit surprised at your analysis of "ther", I hear it a lot in neutral conversations between friends, even not very close ones, it does not strike me as being rude although I guess you would never hear it in sales situation.

Since bina mostly talks to Isarn people my guess is she could be talking about the Isarn/Lao "der" or "dae" article and not "di" which is shorter, might be wrong though.

If so, I'd say "der" is less of a command particle than "di", perhaps most closely resembling "na" - "seeking agreement from counterpart; softening utterance" in Central Thai.

[Firefoxx]

I also don't think that เถอะ is anything but neutral. You often hear things like "ไปกินข้าวกันเถอะ" (let's go eat), and it's not meant to be imperative or rude. You can add ครับ at the end, and it becomes polite and fairly formal.

เหอะ on the other hand, I would say it's at the same level as ดิ, fairly impolite and only meant to be used with friends, or when you're getting very impatient. Even if you add ครับ at the end, it still sounds very informal.

Even so, I think you can be ruder, with วะ กู มึง and the like... stuff only used with close firends (or someone you don't like).

[bina]

Since bina mostly talks to Isarn people my guess is she could be talking about the Isarn/Lao "der" or "dae" article and not "di" which is shorter,

meadish u are right, most people i speak with are issaan and when they say it it is more like dae but my friend doesnt think its the same as 'na' ..... he will tell me 'kin na, leo leo'; but the 'de' comes as an interogotive (question ) like he says children will ask: 'kin kenom wan de"?.... sorry cant type the words in thai cause he wrote them but cant read his hand writing even to copy from what i see....

Edited February 3, 2005 by bina

[Neeranam]

Could the 'der' be something like 'ka' or 'krap'?

Although my wife isn't from Isarn, we live there now and she throws der onto the end of some phrases when talking to friend as a kind of joke.

I don't think it really means anything, just an Isarn thing.

[withnail]

my thai teacher basically said that di meant exactly the same as si but was the kiddies version

[francois]

hi'

my thai teacher basically said that di meant exactly the same as si but was the kiddies version

my 2b here ...

same as si (gentle order) as "pay si, let's go", but this "de" comes from Isaan, "pay de, let's go"

same difference as mai and bor

francois

[RDN]

....Even so, I think you can be ruder, with วะ กู มึง and the like... stuff only used with close firends (or someone you don't like).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you mean ว่ะ ?

[Firefoxx]

I meant both. วะ is used in questions, such as อะไรกันวะ?

ว่ะ can be used in normal phrases, such as มันส์ดีว่ะ

Also... เว้ยเฮ้ย

Der...? As in เ้ด้อ? Which is the regional (forget which region) way of saying เหรอ (ไปไหนกันเด้อ).

[bina]

francois, that sounds closest in meaning ... will have to print this thread out and check out what the guys here say, next week...

what i find is happening is that i am 'hearing' more and more words as words and not just groups of phrases; so when i hear something often enough to distinguish the word from its context, i stop the person and ask.... what was that word you keep saying....so now i am hearing all sorts of little words but cant always find out the clear or colloquiall meaning.....

so thanx to all for helping out on such a small word...

[Boh Bpen Yang]

I am not a great Thai speaker but my family here is from Isawn and the word dii "good" is used a lot with them to mean completely.

Some examples I have heard are below.

bpit bpra dtuu dii "Close the door all the way"

Gin dii "Finish your food or drink"

I don't know if this is what you are hearing but it is a thought.

[bina]

I am not a great Thai speaker but my family here is from Isawn and the word dii "good" is used a lot with them to mean completely.

Some examples I have heard are below.

bpit bpra dtuu dii "Close the door all the way"

Gin dii "Finish your food or drink"

the meaning and the way you used the examples show exactly how i hear the use of the word also, but i dont think its the same as 'di' (good); i think it is the 'dae' that francois et al wrote.... which is like a sort of gentle command...

in hebrew, the future tense is used to give commands in a polite fashion sometimes also combined with an untranslatable particle tagged on at the end

there is an other tense that is the 'absolute' command for use for like in the army, giving direct orders, etc. so different ways of telling someone to do something are not strange to me....

these little words drive me nuts cause they are the words the make the difference in total understanding and speech as apposed to my at the moment 'baby talk' thai....

Edited February 4, 2005 by bina

[bannork]

bina, I'm sure Francois is right and you're hearing 'der' เด้อ I reckon it's more an encouragement than an order, you hear it at the end of advertisments, statements,conversations with friends, it's just Issan people showing enthusiasm .

When I compare the animated faces of the people in my wife's village to the stony faced skytrain or underground commuters I want to shout ยิ้มหน่อยเด้อ yim noy der- smile a little!

bannork.

[bina]

just out of curiousity, would it appear in a 'regular' central thai dictionary ???

Edited February 4, 2005 by bina

[Neeranam]

When I compare the animated faces of the people in my wife's village to the stony faced skytrain or underground commuters I want to shout ยิ้มหน่อยเด้อ yim noy der- smile a little!

bannork.

Here here!

[withnail]

i'm sure francois was probably correct with the meaning however it's certainly true that kids seem to use it alot when speaking to each other. I remember picking up on it after i started teaching thinking that the kids were saying dii i.e. good and wondering why. My teacher explained that they weren't saying dii but "de" which is the same as si.

She didn't mention the origins but said it was something that kids used a lot and that i should really say si instead. Probably because it's isaan and thats not what she was trying to teach me.

[sabaijai]

I also don't think that เถอะ is anything but neutral.  You often hear things like "ไปกินข้าวกันเถอะ" (let's go eat), and it's not meant to be imperative or rude.  You can add ครับ at the end, and it becomes polite and fairly formal.

เหอะ on the other hand, I would say it's at the same level as ดิ, fairly impolite and only meant to be used with friends, or when you're getting very impatient.  Even if you add ครับ at the end, it still sounds very informal.

Even so, I think you can be ruder, with วะ กู มึง and the like... stuff only used with close firends (or someone you don't like).

Interesting. The latest Rajabhat Thai-Thai dictionary simply defines เถอะ as เหอะ and vice versa, and the longer explanatory defs identical.

My own sense is they're both quite informal/colloquial, with เหอะ just a tad more 'rough'.

[meadish_sweetball]

We are not talking about the same word anymore.

"di" SHORT LOW(sometimes falling?) is a Central Thai young slang/casual speech particle, spelled ดิand has the same function as "si" ซิ does in polite Central Thai speech. This is what withnail talks about.

In the phrases Boh Pen Yang mentions, the word is actually "dii" LONG as in good, but this is a special usage of the word, just like he says, in order to make somebody do something thoroughly (there are two options as below):

"bpit bpratuu dii dii" ปิดประตูดีๆ (reduplication of 'dii') OR "bpit bpratuu hai dii" ปิดประตูใหู้ดี(same "hai" as in "give; let", but here it functions as a result marker - close the door (SO THAT it is done) well/properly). Other particles may of course follow too, "si khrap" ซิครับ or "si kha" ซิค่ะ if you want to be polite.

Francois and bannork are talking about the Isarn particle "der"/"dae" เด้อ. I have not had that much exposure to Isarn, but I think bannorks 'showing enthusiasm' sounds reasonable. I also think this is the one bina means.

Final particles in Thai are hard to pin down easily, because they can be used to change the general mood of an utterance, to show respect/disrespect, familiarity and closeness, to implore for agreement etc. etc.

If Firefox is talking about the same der in the same dialect (Isarn) and has the usage down right, then maybe it is similar to Northern Thai "ga" that can be used for for both questions as well as statements (if the tone is changed).

Edited February 5, 2005 by meadish_sweetball

[sabaijai]

   

just out of curiousity, would it appear in a 'regular' central thai dictionary  ???

The central Thai /di/ appears in the standard Rajabhat (Royal Thai Institute) Thai-Thai dictionary.

But it seems we're confusing two completely different particles here. The central Thai /di/ expresses an invitation to do something, or a mild command (depending on context).

The Lao /doe/ (or however you choose to transcribe it, here I've used the same /oe/ as the Royal Thai Institute prescribes for 'Loei'. etc) is a politening particle, the closest Lao equivalent to central Thai's khrap/kha. As in khawp jai doe, the all-purpose 'thank you' in Lao and Isan.

Completely different pronunciations and meanings.

Bina, have you thought about learning the Thai alphabet? It's kind of difficult to write about Thai language when everyone here uses a different transcription system. Once you render it in Thai script, it becomes crystal clear (well, usually). Even Isan/Lao can usually be written in Thai script more clearly than in Roman. Worth the trouble I think.

[bina]

Bina, have you thought about learning the Thai alphabet? It's kind of difficult to write about Thai language when everyone here uses a different transcription system.

would really really like to learn sabaijai, its just really difficult to self teach myself to read.... i can do research aplenty thru the net; self learn veterinary stuff, but cant seem to do it for thai (couldnt for hebrew either, i did a short course for people like me that have been here for ages (10 yrs)but were illiterate; now 10 yrs later i;m literate, can read newspapers etc, but not novels....)

the thing is, is that from my experience with the men here when we try using becker's dictionary, they very very often cant find the word because they cant spell properly (speak issan/lao)and they have low level education so it makes it all the more difficult... often my friend looks up words and cant find them, then i look at the transliterated word and show him the thai word and then he says , this is the word (not the word he originally showed me)...

well on tuesday i will print this all out and show him and get to the bottom of this tiny word. BTW where is snow leapard with spiffy comments??? to add to the confusion???

meadish,

Final particles in Thai are hard to pin down easily, because they can be used to change the general mood of an utterance, to show respect/disrespect, familiarity and closeness, to implore for agreement etc. etc.

thats why it is so important to learn these tiny words, when u know these you can understand much better the person, what he/she thinks feels etc.... its the subtleties in a language that show u the 'real person' behind what u see

[Richard W]

If Firefox is talking about the same der in the same dialect (Isarn) and has the usage down right, then maybe it is similar to Northern Thai "ga" that can be used for for both questions as well as statements (if the tone is changed).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is this cognate with Central Thai คะ and ค่ะ?

[meadish_sweetball]

"Ga/Ka" depending on transcription rules - ก anyway, is used by both men and women.

Since I never formally studied Northern Thai I don't know of any relations to Central Thai - I think it is not related to คะ and ค่ะ but I am by no means sure.

Another thought regarding Northern Thai I have had is whether the polite particles for women in the North and Central Plains have evolved from the nowadays very deferent polite particle "khaphajao", where the Northern women use the end of the word ("jao") as their polite particle, and the Central Plains women use a shortened form of the beginning... "kha"?

[sabaijai]

If Firefox is talking about the same der in the same dialect (Isarn) and has the usage down right, then maybe it is similar to Northern Thai "ga" that can be used for for both questions as well as statements (if the tone is changed).

Is this cognate with Central Thai คะ and ค่ะ?

No because both genders use it. Pronunciation-wise it's actually /kaw/ (rhymes with 'jaw', shortish vowel).

[meadish_sweetball]

If Firefox is talking about the same der in the same dialect (Isarn) and has the usage down right, then maybe it is similar to Northern Thai "ga" that can be used for for both questions as well as statements (if the tone is changed).

Is this cognate with Central Thai คะ and ค่ะ?

No because both genders use it. Pronunciation-wise it's actually /kaw/ (rhymes with 'jaw', shortish vowel).

That's not the one I meant. "kaw" functions like a "mai" at the end of sentences, but this particle has the same vowel sound as in "kha" - transcription should be "ka" or "ga". In its most common use it seems to correspond to "reu"/"ler" at the end of Central Thai sentences.

[Neeranam]

I am at a convention with many liguists, and the Isanese ones have all told me, "der" in Isarn = "na" in Central Thai.