Thailand: The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly

[ChouDoufu]

Hello forum members. I'm new here, first post and all. I'm currently living in China, studying Mandarin, but am about saturated.

I'm thinking of a change. Thailand sounds nice. Maybe hop over and study a few years? I've been going through the posts, and

doing some net research, but would like to get some comments/advice from the 'locals.'

For your consideration, I'm 45, single, semi-retired, straight. I'm not looking for sexklubs, nor easy females. Not that I'd beat them

off with a stick though. I'm just not out to go picking up random strangers for acrobatics. I'd like to study the language; a private

school would be preferable to a university, as I can learn more outside the classroom. If those one-year visa and 180 hours of

instruction offers are legit, that would do nicely. Not really interested in working, at least not for now.

I'm looking for a smaller city, 'relatively' clean environment, easy access to mountains and scenery, preferably by bicycle.

Nice weather - hot is no problem, I'm fine with 50 degrees celcius, as long as it's not too humid. For now, I'm looking at

Chiang Mai, but nothing definite yet.

So......what I would like is some comments by long-term ex-pats on living in Thailand. What's the best reason for living there,

and what is it that keeps you there after five or ten years?

And.....I'd also like to know what really drives you insane. This is the stuff that never makes it into the tourist brochures. The stuff

that the folks back home don't believe.

In the interest of this not becoming a thai-bashing party, if there's any comments that would be considered rascist or trolling, etc,

please send to me via pm or email.

aha, found this post.....http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/you-ve-Thailand-long-when-t2373.html&st=50

.....................very informative, and eerily similar to china!!

Edited May 12, 2009 by ChouDoufu

[oldsparrow]

I am a local Thai so I dont' know much about language school opportunity. BTW, apart from popular region like the north and northeast I think you can consider some Central Provinces ie. Kanjanaburi, Saraburi and Nakornrachasima.

[teacup]

cheap FOODS

good FOODS

yippi yip yum yum FOODS

varieties of FOODS

Just me here

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

The biggest complaint is probably the drivers in Thailand. There are very few rules and even fewer that are enforced. Road rage is rare but just plain stupidity is very common when it comes to drivers.

Next to the drivers the bureaucracy can be frustrating. Each official has his own interpretation of the immigration rules and they change frequently.

But on the whole it is a very nice place to be, and I think very enjoyable.

Give it a go.

[GungaDin]

OP.....You mentioned a clean environment, I live 30 kms West of BKK thinking I'd be clear of the crappy air.

Wrong, it's just as bad out here as it is in BKK.

My tiled carport is covered in black soot, 24/7 & must be hosed down daily.

I hope other members will post about clean air locations.

CMai has a bad smoke polution problem seasonally....

Any others?

old sparrow

Why the Central Provinces?

You didn't give a reason.

[oldsparrow]

GungaDin

Because there is less confusion between classroom Thai and Thai you heard in Talad (market) Ei Ei. You may heard story that Bangkok parents found out that their kid speak regional dialect of the nanny better than themselves.

Uhm, as the wind blows from the gulf I think Nakhon Pathom has better chance of fresh air than North of BKK. May be it's the problem of proximity to the road? IN BKK, after parking a car in Phyathai or Din Daeng area I can write letter on the cover dust after half a day..

[Birdman]

Consider Had Yai. A rather inexpensive town in the South with little pollution, no intense traffic jams, nice surroundings, good location (to the sea, national parks with forest mountains, Malaysia...)

[mommysboy]

The best thing about living in Thailand is that you get to lead a full life, partly because you can afford to, but also because there is more freedom, and the weather is generally a plus too. Then there's the abundance of tasty food, and the ladies are so pretty! Cheap travel too. You get to meet all sorts of interesting people. It's more a general thing. Life's better IMHO.

But mod cons are just not up to scratch when compared with even a modest sized western town, and whether it be the roads or the internet, nothing seems to work well out here. When you get an upset stomach you know about it, and when out walking you are always on edge because the motor cycle riders are so bad! The quality of service in the shops is awful, and Thais have a way of driving us farangs crazy with their endless errors, distractions, and general Chaplinesque clumsiness. They really can be a bunch of oddballs.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

On the good side, some of the hospitals in BKK are as good as you will find anywhere but very affordable.

[bertlamar]

........... Thais have a way of driving us farangs crazy with their endless errors, distractions, and general Chaplinesque clumsiness. They really can be a bunch of oddballs.

That's exactly what I thought ilving in USA (only not about Thai people, just about the stupid tipping system, opinionated rubbish on politics fervently supported even though both parties are basically the same etc etc etc) and in Singapore (crazily high stress, excessively materialistic - at least on the plus side ruthlessly efficient most of the time) and in Malaysia (imagine the stress of Singapore with the inefficiency of Thailand).

Every country has its quirks, Thailand's quirks are not for the hot hearted, as the culture and way of doing things tends to wind those people up...for everyone else, very relaxing and low stress. The corruption, politics and possibly the hot weather are the negatives I guess. Pretty much everything else is pretty sweet.

No idea what mod cons are missing here, basically if the language isn't a barrier and you can handle doing things slower then everything from Italian grappa to Foie Gras to great steak to internet to mobile to fast cars is available....but not always at the price you want to pay or the speed you want it delivered.

Thai as a language is relatively easy to learn, interesting and enjoyable to speak, there are good courses at Chula and other places. Very few westerners I've ever seen speak it well, but have met a couple over the years. Compared to Chinese, the locals are a LOT more happy to handle bad pronounciation and appreciate the efforts to speak it.

Central Thai is the only one worth learning; Isaan has different dialects depending where you are and is useless for anything other than living in that area or perhaps arguably riding in taxis/going to Muay Thai/doing other stuff that is mostly Isaan people; Northern dialect hopeless unless you are up there or frequenting the Bangkok massage parlours for THai people; southern dialect almost impossible to follow although has a certain odd charm to it.... actually within central there are some regional variations; don't adopt the Suphanburi dialect, neui sounds pretty much like how many westerners speak Thai, the tones are a bit back to front; around CHonburi they also have a bit of an odd way of talking (the true locals, not all the rest)....stick with Bangkok Thai and you'll probably do the best.

Edited May 12, 2009 by bertlamar

[JohnGotti]

You want to live in Bangkok and take day trips to other places. When you arrive at these other places, you will think how perfect this is, and that you could stay there forever, then three days later you will be missing Bangkok.

[DragonQuest]

I enjoy the low-cost lifestlye

[mommysboy]

........... Thais have a way of driving us farangs crazy with their endless errors, distractions, and general Chaplinesque clumsiness. They really can be a bunch of oddballs.

That's exactly what I thought ilving in USA (only not about Thai people, just about the stupid tipping system, opinionated rubbish on politics fervently supported even though both parties are basically the same etc etc etc) and in Singapore (crazily high stress, excessively materialistic - at least on the plus side ruthlessly efficient most of the time) and in Malaysia (imagine the stress of Singapore with the inefficiency of Thailand).

Every country has its quirks, Thailand's quirks are not for the hot hearted, as the culture and way of doing things tends to wind those people up...for everyone else, very relaxing and low stress. The corruption, politics and possibly the hot weather are the negatives I guess. Pretty much everything else is pretty sweet.

No idea what mod cons are missing here, basically if the language isn't a barrier and you can handle doing things slower then everything from Italian grappa to Foie Gras to great steak to internet to mobile to fast cars is available....but not always at the price you want to pay or the speed you want it delivered.

Thai as a language is relatively easy to learn, interesting and enjoyable to speak, there are good courses at Chula and other places. Very few westerners I've ever seen speak it well, but have met a couple over the years. Compared to Chinese, the locals are a LOT more happy to handle bad pronounciation and appreciate the efforts to speak it.

Central Thai is the only one worth learning; Isaan has different dialects depending where you are and is useless for anything other than living in that area or perhaps arguably riding in taxis/going to Muay Thai/doing other stuff that is mostly Isaan people; Northern dialect hopeless unless you are up there or frequenting the Bangkok massage parlours for THai people; southern dialect almost impossible to follow although has a certain odd charm to it.... actually within central there are some regional variations; don't adopt the Suphanburi dialect, neui sounds pretty much like how many westerners speak Thai, the tones are a bit back to front; around CHonburi they also have a bit of an odd way of talking (the true locals, 'not all the rest)....stick with Bangkok Thai and you'll probably do the best.

What!

I honestly don't think any English speaker would describe Thai as relatively easy to learn. Come off it!

By mod cons I meant modern technology, not just the machine but how it is utilised, eg, the internet, the traffic lights, air conditioners in the most inopportune places, power cuts, and Thais who just don't know how to use the things, motor cycle riders zooming past you turning in from the wrong side of the road in to the wrong side of the road, tills that don't recognise more than 50% of barcodes, and cashiers who think answering the mobile phone is the most important issue.

What is true is the 'jai rawn' bit, if you tend to be a bit driven, these people will drive you up the wall still further.

[mahtin]

I enjoy the low-cost lifestlye

I enjoy the lowlife coststyle.

[sbk]

Choudofu (great name btw ) after China, Thailand will be a walk in the park. The Thais are rank amateurs next to the Chinese when it comes to lack of queueing, driving, etc etc.

After studying Mandarin I don't think you will have great difficulties learning Thai, I also studied Mandarin at University level and found that I already had the basis for not only hearing the tones but being able to reproduce them.

The best language schools are usually in Bangkok but it isn't the most easily livable city. Again, you are coming from China, so perhaps it wont' bother you that much. Best thing is to come, check things out for yourself and see what place you like the most.

[Soulwy]

I am not an expat, but have been staying here for almost 3 months.

I think it is great you study again (or still? ) Mandarin is becoming an important Asian language and I heard many children are stimulated to learn Mandarin. Learning an other language is good for your 45 years old brains!

You want to study the Thai language in Thailand?

Keep the 3 months visa-ritual in mind.

When I read your post mentioning mountains and bicycle I immediately thought of Chiang Mai. BKK... mountains ...euhm...

Thailand is more commercialised than I thought, I like the people up north (was a month in Chiang Rai prov.) more than in central Thailand. Land of smile...typical a "brochure" sentence, I just came back from the Philippines and this would fit the Phils better.

Why not come over and see it for yourself first? Take a "vacation" like every student!

[bertlamar]

I honestly don't think any English speaker would describe Thai as relatively easy to learn. Come off it!

Most english speakers who have learned other Asian languages that i know of, say that to speak Thai at a reasonable level is somewhat easier than Japanese (other than the tonal aspect), Mandarin, Cantonese or Korean.

However, partly this is because Thai people are very non critical of poorly spoken Thai relative to say many Chinese, who will simply ignore anything said unless it is actually almost right (or French for that matter).

Writing system is very simple relative to character based systems.

Anyone saying otherwise, usually is not already bilingual, as is the case for the OP. To speak it at a native level....I can think of almost no farang who can speak it at that level, but not really needed in many respects, as Thais seem to tolerate butchering their language fairly well.

Most of the mod cons stuff, would say is perhaps not so different to other parts of the world in that many places aren't perfect....but the heat plus the extreme indifference can be extremely frustrating. Road safety is another major one. If these things are big issues or the OP is a bit of a worry wart, then THailand = probably not the best place to be.

Edited May 13, 2009 by bertlamar

[ChouDoufu]

hi again, thought i'd add some more info and comment on the comments so far....

teacup: i love thai food. that there is almost a good enough reason to move. there's some great chinese food, just not here. this part

of the country has rice noodles breakfast, lunch and dinner.

beentheredonethat: sounds like you've beenheredonethis too. worst part is that for all types of 'forward motion,' the one and only rule is

"what's convenient for me?" 1.3 billion live here, yet each and every one seems to think they are the only person

on the planet. painted lines and traffic lights are merely pretty decorations. i won't get into the stupidity, but you

wonder what the net result is when for a couple thousand years, you host massive civil servant exams, scouring the

countryside for the best and brightest, inviting those who pass to beijing to serve in the court, and then castrating them.

so much for the gene pool.

gungadin: clean air would be nice, since i will be running marathons. bankok i feel is much too large. would prefer a much smaller city

with less traffic congestion, less noise.

birdman: googled had/hat yai. looks interesting, i shall research that location a bit more. seems large enough to host language schools.

wiki says there's a large chinese population there, maybe can still put my chinese to good use.

mommysboy: lack of modcons i can understand and can tolerate to a certain extent. i moved from the big city of 4mio where i'd lived for

two years, to a backwater agricultural city pop 250k. i can usually find the stuff i need, but often must search through many

shops to find certain items. some things cannot be gotten in this town.....western size clothes, shoes, decent bread and cheese

of any sort.

beenthereagain: hospitals here are exceedingly affordable, however the quality is substandard. don't get sick here.

sbk: i'd think after mandarin, anything would be a walk in the park. i've studied about two years, i can get by. some days can hold a pretty

decent conversation, some days have trouble ordering noodles. a lot depends on mood. yeah, the queing thing. after all, since

everyone is the only person on the planet, why not go to the head of the line. i really love it when they come up behind you at

the cash register and put their stuff in front of yours so the salesgirl will ring theirs first. and i'm not necessarily looking for the

'best' language school. location is more important, as i'll learn more outside of class.

bertlamar: writing system. oh, how i miss writing. and spelling. i'm now to where i can 'draw' about a thousand characters from memory,

recognize several hundred more. nowhere near enough. you need something like 3000 to read a basic newspaper, although

that just means you can recognize the characters, you've still got all the combinations. and if the paper has topics more

complicated than the local farm report, they have 90,000 characters to draw from. aaaaagggggggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!

[harrry]

Despite what people say the polution in ChiangMai is not too bad. And there is probably enough in the town to keep you occupied and is more pleasant to live than Bangkok.

If you are studying at a private language school you have to get a visa extension every three months. If you are studying at a University you can get a year extension of stay at once.

CMU has a 180 hr couse. The one I am on is 2hr Sat and Sun. There are other schools here including Wallan in a few months, At cmu on the 180 hr course you are reading and writing so you can do your favorite spelling.

Hat Yai and Songlah have some advantages. They are close to the border so trips to malaysia are possible. There is a terroist problem in some of the south so this could limit trips from Hatyai. I like the south but would think of Surathani more but I dont think they have any Thai chourse there. You may not find one in Hatyai either.

Edited May 13, 2009 by harrry

[nonthaburial]

china is a huge country, different attitudes in different provinces. Perhaps OP should say where he is in China and whats his nationality

[GungaDin]

oops!

Edited May 13, 2009 by GungaDin

[ChouDoufu]

harry, thanks for that. i've found the cmu and wallen websites. it seems wallen has a unique whole-word

method of teaching thai. recognize the cluster of characters, rather than sounding out the word. i'll have to

research that a bit and compare to the cmu program.

nonthaburial, i'm in guangxi province, in the zhuang minority autonomous region. town itself is pretty small,

but the area is mostly agriculture, so air is clean. located in a basin, surrounded by mountains (well, really

really big hills), jump on the bicycle, in ten minutes i'm out of the city, and in the fields and forests. from the

us, but like to wear maple leaves when travelling.

oops! ????????

btw, is there any difference between falang and farang? is that a regional variation?

we of course have the similar laowai and waiguoren labels here. seems to be about the same,

meaning furr'ner, not derogatory except in context.

[sbk]

Bangkok, Northern and NE Thai's have difficulty pronouncing the "r" sound. The correct pronunciation is farang, with a rolled r.

Anyway, Soulwy is incorrect about the visa situation, I believe if you enrol in a school you can get a ED visa, be sure to check in the Visas to Thailand section for posts about education visas, and there are several language schools that sponsor the Thai Language forum, if you click on their banners you can contact them directly.

I'd say CM would be better for your then, haven't been in years but its far more livable then Bangkok.

And yes, if you've managed the Chinese for two years, the Thais won't bother you a bit

[uhuh]

The OP asked, what keeps people here after 5 or ten years.

The answer for most (80-90%) people is: its cheap here to build yourself a kind of petty bourgeois lifestyle they could not afford in their homecountries.

This means usually a house for the family, a garden, alcohol (beer is expensive but liquor is cheap) and affordable pussy 10 or more years their junior.

Mod cons here work quite well (as opposed to what other posters think, I find many work better than in the West) and are sometimes very cheap, often normal priced, never very expensive.

Infrastructure is infinitely better than in Cambo, Indo or Philippines.

Western goods and amenities are easily available.

Life is generally easy, big difference to China or India (or Cambo and Philippines). BTW i agree with "Compared to Chinese, the locals are a LOT more happy to handle bad pronounciation and appreciate the efforts to speak it." (the flipside is: Thais are not interested in you)

Most westerners who end up here are lower class in their home countries (esp. lots of pensioners).

An example: a Swiss citizen on welfare can get about 100000 B/month - he can live very well here.

The flipside is: most westerners who end up here are uneducated lower class, usually old. Do not expect mind-stimulating conversations. This is especially true in the foreign communities outside Bangkok: get to know the foreign community in Udon or Chaam and you may be in for a rude awakening. An example about (studying language): Thais supposedly "learn their language by rote-learning in school, their language never changes or develops", thats why they are not capable of to develop sophisticated ideas.

[mommysboy]

I enjoy the low-cost lifestlye

I enjoy the lowlife coststyle.

This to me is a massive plus that wipes out the negatives.

Where else a delicious meal for 3 quid (with a beer if you choose well).?

Then there's my local gym and swimming pool (open air) for 2 quid.

Down to the cost by train- 15 quid with a sleeper.

I also like the balance between living on the wilder side and safety.

[ChouDoufu]

well, so far we've identified three language schools that offer the one year visa with 180 hour courses in chiang mai:

CMU, wallen (coming soon), and pro language.

i'm seriously looking into chiang mai, or maybe chiang rai if i can find any schools there.

harry, what do you think of the instruction at CMU? costs for all three are about the same, as some include the visa cost

in the annual fee, others do not. CMU has libraries with english books, and a gym for the students.

also of interest is the chiang mai marathon in december. any runners out there? or perhaps i should start a new thread

or two in the chiang mai / chiang rai sections.

anyway, if all goes according to plan, i'll get visas in next month in kunming, then return to dump most of my stuff.

what i think i need, i can send by post. i don't need much, right? after that, i can load up my bicycle and pedal eastwards,

through china, across laos, and to wherever i finally decide on.

[harrry]

. costs for all three are about the same, as some include the visa cost

in the annual fee, others do not. CMU has libraries with english books, and a gym for the students.

As far as I know none of the schools actually include the visa fee. They supply a letter which allows you to get an Ed visa Private schools students need to extend this permission to stay every 3 months and at at least some schools cannot be done in CM but only in Bangkok and each extension costs 1900 baht. Universities can give a letter which results in an extension for the whole 12 months for 1900 baht.

THe fee for cmu for the one year course includes the letter which you should have first as it enables you to get an non B ED visa to enter on otherwise you may have to do a border run after you get the letter. With the one month courses cmu gives you a letter you can use to get a 3 month visa but cmu charge 500baht for this. Personally I would enter on this do the more intensive initial course to get you up and running with spoken thai and then transfer to the one year course .

Edited May 16, 2009 by harrry

[ChouDoufu]

THe fee for cmu for the one year course includes the letter which you should have first as it enables you to get an non B ED visa to enter on otherwise you may have to do a border run after you get the letter. With the one month courses cmu gives you a letter you can use to get a 3 month visa but cmu charge 500baht for this. Personally I would enter on this do the more intensive initial course to get you up and running with spoken thai and then transfer to the one year course .<br />

i'm leaning towards that option; do the one-month intensive course, then follow up with the one-year course. rinse and repeat.

now the expected visa question. let's say i register and pay online or via email for the one-month course. they send me a letter which i take

to my local consulate for a 90-day ed visa. i enter thailand, do whatever registration is required, attend class for one month, take a month or

so off to self-study.

now i register for the one-year course, which gets me the one-year ed visa (with no 90-day trips to bk). or is this an extension to the original visa?

if not an extension, do i 'convert' to the one-year visa right there in chiang mai? or do i have to do this in bk or do a border run?

i guess this is where the price difference comes in. cmu is 30k, the other schools around 27.5k. with cmu you only pay the 1900 once, the private schools

require 1900 for the visa, then three more times in 90-day intervals.

oh, my, compared to chinese visas, this seems so easy. we shall see.

[Neeranam]

Despite what people say the polution in ChiangMai is not too bad.

What the hel_l is that suposed to mean - everyone thinks Chiang Mai has bad pollution except you?

Is CM polluted or not? Personally, I wouldn't live there as it's polluted with farang.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Neeranam

[harrry]

now i register for the one-year course, which gets me the one-year ed visa (with no 90-day trips to bk). or is this an extension to the original visa?

if not an extension, do i 'convert' to the one-year visa right there in chiang mai? or do i have to do this in bk or do a border run?

i guess this is where the price difference comes in. cmu is 30k, the other schools around 27.5k. with cmu you only pay the 1900 once, the private schools

require 1900 for the visa, then three more times in 90-day intervals.

oh, my, compared to chinese visas, this seems so easy. we shall see.

With cmu i am pretty sure here. With the others as they are not registered with the ministry completly yet (although to be fair I believe it is under way.) you would at least have to do it in Bangkok.