Are We Born With Defilements (kilesa)?

[bankei]

1. Are you suggesting that inherited negative khamma can manifest itself as genetic predisposition ensuring a high probably of further suffering and negative attachment?

No, I haven't mentioned kamma at all. I'm interested in whether a new-born baby can be considered to have kilesa. If it can, I'd like to hear the logic. If not, it presumably starts off with a pure mind.

I asked a similar question to a learned Burmese monk once - the only good monk i have ever met. And he said that as soon as babies are born they start crying due to anger. Went they come out of that warm womb into a cold and noisy world it is a shock to their system. They experience discomfort and react by crying and screaming. Then when they start sucking on mum's milk they probably experience pleasure - not to mention making their first poo which they had been holding onto for 9months.

It is probably similar in the womb. They may experience discomfort sometimes and feel some sort of anger. They may experience happiness too??

who knows.

Bankei

[camerata]

I suppose the innocent party is the consciousness which we call "self".

Our "self" must suffer through the inheritance of another's citta & kilesa.

You can't really say that your former life was "another's." As Bhikkhu Bodhi says about a citta: "Its perceptions, emotions and volitional force are passed on to the next citta, and thus all experiences we undergo leave their imprint on the onward flow of consciousness, on the "cittasantana", the continuum of mind." Let's say in your former life you were a selfish person, but then you read a Dharma book, became a Buddhist and became an unselfish person. That "volitional force" is passed on from citta to citta and on to your current life. In this life you are motivated to be unselfish, but you don't remember the event that led to it. However, it's still "you" and "your" action that led to your current situation. It's just that you have no conscious memory of it.

[rockyysdt]

You can't really say that your former life was "another's." As Bhikkhu Bodhi says about a citta: "Its perceptions, emotions and volitional force are passed on to the next citta, and thus all experiences we undergo leave their imprint on the onward flow of consciousness, on the "cittasantana", the continuum of mind." Let's say in your former life you were a selfish person, but then you read a Dharma book, became a Buddhist and became an unselfish person. That "volitional force" is passed on from citta to citta and on to your current life. In this life you are motivated to be unselfish, but you don't remember the event that led to it. However, it's still "you" and "your" action that led to your current situation. It's just that you have no conscious memory of it.

I've learned quite a lot about Buddhism in the last 12 months.

How does this teaching align with earths expanding population?

70,000 BC 1 million pop.

1,000 BC 50 million pop.

1 200 million pop.

2009 6.7 billion pop.

If there were 1 million individual cittas 72,000 years ago, where did the six billion new cittas come from?

[agent69]

well, don't forget that in Buddhism there are heaven & hel_l. Some animals can come back as haman. One of Buddha incanation was a monkey.

Also, Earth is neither the centre of nor the only planet in the universe.

[sabaijai]

You can't really say that your former life was "another's." As Bhikkhu Bodhi says about a citta: "Its perceptions, emotions and volitional force are passed on to the next citta, and thus all experiences we undergo leave their imprint on the onward flow of consciousness, on the "cittasantana", the continuum of mind." Let's say in your former life you were a selfish person, but then you read a Dharma book, became a Buddhist and became an unselfish person. That "volitional force" is passed on from citta to citta and on to your current life. In this life you are motivated to be unselfish, but you don't remember the event that led to it. However, it's still "you" and "your" action that led to your current situation. It's just that you have no conscious memory of it.

I've learned quite a lot about Buddhism in the last 12 months.

How does this teaching align with earths expanding population?

70,000 BC 1 million pop.

1,000 BC 50 million pop.

1 200 million pop.

2009 6.7 billion pop.

If there were 1 million individual cittas 72,000 years ago, where did the six billion new cittas come from?

Different realms, possibly.

[phetaroi]

well, don't forget that in Buddhism there are heaven & hel_l. Some animals can come back as haman. One of Buddha incanation was a monkey.

Also, Earth is neither the centre of nor the only planet in the universe.

I think this is a very good answer...BUT...I have read in several places that Buddhism does not address the issue of whether or not there is God because it is unanswerable. We cannot prove it or disprove it. I can accept that.

But how exactly has anyone proven the existence of Buddhist heaven or hel_l or other realms or incarnation? It seems to me that these realms and concepts are just as unprovable.

[agent69]

well, don't forget that in Buddhism there are heaven & hel_l. Some animals can come back as haman. One of Buddha incanation was a monkey.

Also, Earth is neither the centre of nor the only planet in the universe.

I think this is a very good answer...BUT...I have read in several places that Buddhism does not address the issue of whether or not there is God because it is unanswerable. We cannot prove it or disprove it. I can accept that.

But how exactly has anyone proven the existence of Buddhist heaven or hel_l or other realms or incarnation? It seems to me that these realms and concepts are just as unprovable.

If we look at practicing Buddhism as an scientific experiment, we will need to apply the scientific methods into it. Our lives will be seen as a big experiment. Buddha has laid down the hypotheses and the procedures. We just need follow the procedures and record the results along the way.

All these that we believe unprovable might just be the elephant I mentioned in the other thread. And we are the blind men. Without the extra sensory, we may not be able to see the elephant.

[sabaijai]

I had an opportunity to meet with Phra Maha Wutichai Wachiramethi, aka W Wachiramethi, yesterday at Vimuttalaya Institute, and I asked him whether we're 'pure' at birth or have kilesa.

Wachiramethi said that at the very least the kilesa of moha or delusion must be present for birth to occur. He said this contrasted with the Christian concept of original sin in that delusion is caused by a lack of sati, not a fall from grace, and is remedied by developing sati, not by appealing for God’s grace. In other words someone with moha can solve the problem on their own, while absolution from sin requires help from outside (ie, divine intervention).

The monk added that many births arrive relatively kilesa-free and under the right conditions they have the opportunity to reduce them quickly with right view and practice. On the other hand many born this way see kilesa increase because they haven’t seized the moment, so to speak.

On the subject of 'God', the Buddhist teachings do address the question of divine beings, affirming the existence of deva (heavenly beings) and noting that although their lives are very long and auspicious, ultimately they are subject to impermance and rebirth like all conditioned phenomena. There's a famous passage somewhere about a particular divine being who is so mired in delusion that he believes himself to be the immortal creator of the universe

[rockyysdt]

He said this contrasted with the Christian concept of original sin in that delusion is caused by a lack of sati, not a fall from grace, and is remedied by developing sati, not by appealing for God's grace. In other words someone with moha can solve the problem on their own, while absolution from sin requires help from outside (ie, divine intervention).

Can't there be many paths leading to enlightenment?

Is the Buddhas example the only way?

Edited May 20, 2009 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

well, don't forget that in Buddhism there are heaven & hel_l. Some animals can come back as human. One of Buddha incarnation was a monkey.

How can animals, particularly those functioning purely on instinct (dinosaurs come to mind), accumulate khamma & how do they overcome negative khamma in order for their final citta to elevate into a higher life form?

Survival of the fittest can result in quite ruthless and unforgiving behavior in the wild.

[fabianfred]

He said this contrasted with the Christian concept of original sin in that delusion is caused by a lack of sati, not a fall from grace, and is remedied by developing sati, not by appealing for God's grace. In other words someone with moha can solve the problem on their own, while absolution from sin requires help from outside (ie, divine intervention).

Can't there be many paths leading to enlightenment?

Is the Buddhas example the only way?

Only the Dhamma taught by the Buddha has the Four noble truths and the Eightfold Path...

[phetaroi]

Can't there be many paths leading to enlightenment?

Is the Buddhas example the only way?

I feel like you, I think.

Did Buddha ever say "his way" was "the only way"?

Perhaps others are not looking for exactly the same ending as a Buddhist.

[sabaijai]

Can't there be many paths leading to enlightenment?

Is the Buddhas example the only way?

I feel like you, I think.

Did Buddha ever say "his way" was "the only way"?

Perhaps others are not looking for exactly the same ending as a Buddhist.

From the Buddhist perspective, any path that sufficiently cultivates sati will liberate citta. Any path that does not cultivate sati has no end.

[fabianfred]

Can't there be many paths leading to enlightenment?

Is the Buddhas example the only way?

I feel like you, I think.

Did Buddha ever say "his way" was "the only way"?

Perhaps others are not looking for exactly the same ending as a Buddhist.

Since other beliefs have no knowledge of Nirvana nor the path to get there they can hardly aim for something they know nothing about....

Those beliefs with heaven as their goal can get there.... its not going to be the forever they expect however...

[agent69]

well, don't forget that in Buddhism there are heaven & hel_l. Some animals can come back as human. One of Buddha incarnation was a monkey.

How can animals, particularly those functioning purely on instinct (dinosaurs come to mind), accumulate khamma & how do they overcome negative khamma in order for their final citta to elevate into a higher life form?

Survival of the fittest can result in quite ruthless and unforgiving behavior in the wild.

They can accumulate or exhaust karma just the same way as human. Only that they have more physical restriction than us. I would rather say human are more ruthless than animals.

But based on the story of Angulimala, bearing negative karma does not really stop someone from gaining the enlightenment.

[rockyysdt]

How can animals, particularly those functioning purely on instinct (dinosaurs come to mind), accumulate khamma & how do they overcome negative khamma in order for their final citta to elevate into a higher life form?

They can accumulate or exhaust karma just the same way as human. Only that they have more physical restriction than us.

I'm interested in this point.

For example take a lion.

Using instinct it will stalk, run down and rip the throat out of its prey.

The lion pack will then feed on the carcass based on the prides pecking order.

The female lion will suckle feed & protect its cubs.

If the leader of a pride dies and another lion takes over, it will instinctively kill any cubs sired by its predecessor.

All these behaviors are driven by instinct.

Although horrible to some of us, how would these instinctive behaviors create to negative khamma?

How can such animals negate their negative khamma if they can accumulate it?

It seems to me, humans have evolved and operate outside instinct where as most animals don't have such capacity and hence their state in nature.

[camerata]

This is the argument I've come across most frequently:

"Then what of the animal? Since animals are devoid of moral sense, argues the rationalist, how can they be agents of Kamma? How can they raise themselves from their low status and regain human birth?

The answer is that Buddhism views life against the background of infinity. Samsara is without beginning, and there has never been a time when the round of rebirths did not exist. Consequently, the Kammic history of every living being extends into the infinite past, and each has an unexpected potential of Kamma, good and bad. When a human being dies, the nature of the succeeding life-continuum is determined by the morally wholesome or unwholesome mental impulse that arises in his last conscious moment, that which follows it being his Patisandhi-vinnana, or rebirth-linking consciousness. But where no such good or bad thought-moment arises the rebirth-linking consciousness is determined by some unexpended Kamma from a previous existence. Animals, being without moral discrimination, are more of less passive sufferers of the results of past bad Kamma, as are morally irresponsible human beings, such as congenital idiots and imbeciles. But the fact that the animal has been unable to originate any fresh good Kamma does not exclude it from rebirth on a higher level. When the results of the Kamma which caused the animal birth are exhausted some unexpended good Kamma from a previous state of existence will have an opportunity to take over, and in this way the life-continuum is raised to the human level again."

But the same author then goes into more dubious territory with this:

"It is now necessary to introduce a qualification to the statement that the higher rebirth of animals must depend upon unexpended good Kamma. Within the limitation we have noted it is certainly possible for animals to originate good Kamma, notwithstanding their lack of moral sense. As Prof. Thomson suggests, contact with human beings can encourage and develop those qualities which we recognise as virtue in the higher animals, and even bring about in them a dawning consciousness of moral values. When the compulsions of the law of are removed, as in the case of animals which show examples of those endearing, and even noble qualities in animals which have some times put human beings to shame, and have even caused non-Buddhists to ask them selves uneasily whether man really is a special creation of God, and the only being worthy of salvation."

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/fstory4.htm

[fabianfred]

When the karma which caused a being to take rebirth as a Tiger is exhausted it will take rebirth according to remaining karma which will have an opportunity to bear fruit. It is certainly causing suffering to other beings whilst it is a tiger and thereby creating karma for itself. It may later take rebirth as one of the prey species.

Not having the full faculties of a human, the tiger wouldn't accrue as much bad karma from killing as would a human in the same position.

This is why once a being enters the animal realm it is so very difficult to leave it....... ignorance.

Some say rebirth in a hel_l realm...although more intense suffering.... is preferable to rebirth in the animal realm. Escape from the hel_l realm is comparatively easier.

Remember the comparative example.......... if all beings in the human realm were stood upon the head of a pin....the surface of the earth would be covered in beings from the higher realms..... and if the beings from the higher realms were stood on the head of a pin....the surface of the earth would be covered by beings in the lower realms.

[rockyysdt]

Remember the comparative example.......... if all beings in the human realm were stood upon the head of a pin....the surface of the earth would be covered in beings from the higher realms..... and if the beings from the higher realms were stood on the head of a pin....the surface of the earth would be covered by beings in the lower realms.

With enlightenment in mind, is it preferable to be in a higher realm or lower realm?

Do those in a higher realm have advantages?

Did the Buddha teach the existence of realms or are these not real, but a phenomenon of dream state?

Edited May 21, 2009 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

"Then what of the animal? Since animals are devoid of moral sense, argues the rationalist, how can they be agents of Kamma? How can they raise themselves from their low status and regain human birth?

The answer is that Buddhism views life against the background of infinity. Samsara is without beginning, and there has never been a time when the round of rebirths did not exist. Consequently, the Kammic history of every living being extends into the infinite past, and each has an unexpected potential of Kamma, good and bad. When a human being dies, the nature of the succeeding life-continuum is determined by the morally wholesome or unwholesome mental impulse that arises in his last conscious moment, that which follows it being his Patisandhi-vinnana, or rebirth-linking consciousness. But where no such good or bad thought-moment arises the rebirth-linking consciousness is determined by some unexpended Kamma from a previous existence. Animals, being without moral discrimination, are more of less passive sufferers of the results of past bad Kamma, as are morally irresponsible human beings, such as congenital idiots and imbeciles. But the fact that the animal has been unable to originate any fresh good Kamma does not exclude it from rebirth on a higher level. When the results of the Kamma which caused the animal birth are exhausted some unexpended good Kamma from a previous state of existence will have an opportunity to take over, and in this way the life-continuum is raised to the human level again."

Is this plausible & recognized as Buddhist teaching?

It talks about an infinite past lineage.

Is this due to the difficulty of escape from animal the form?

Is the climb to enlightenment far less than infinite once we reach human form?

If you must endure virtually an infinite number of re births before attaining enlightenment isn't this as good as never attaining this goal?

The effort and time required must be enormous.

Edited May 21, 2009 by rockyysdt

[phetaroi]

Since other beliefs have no knowledge of Nirvana nor the path to get there they can hardly aim for something they know nothing about....

Those beliefs with heaven as their goal can get there.... its not going to be the forever they expect however...

Good post, I love you discussions.

Here's the problem I have with your comment. Forget, for a moment, religions. Think individual. An individual may be fully aware of nirvanna (etc.). What if he decides that he doesn't want to achieve nirvanna in this lifetime? Isn't that possible?

Your comments about heaven. You don't KNOW that. You THINK that. You have FAITH in your view.

I look at it as searching for the truth, and we won't know the truth until it is too late to do anything about it (in this life, at least).

I look forward to your comments.

[fabianfred]

Remember the comparative example.......... if all beings in the human realm were stood upon the head of a pin....the surface of the earth would be covered in beings from the higher realms..... and if the beings from the higher realms were stood on the head of a pin....the surface of the earth would be covered by beings in the lower realms.

With enlightenment in mind, is it preferable to be in a higher realm or lower realm?

Do those in a higher realm have advantages?

Did the Buddha teach the existence of realms or are these not real, but a phenomenon of dream state?

the human realm is the best for opportunities for hearing the dhamma and practising it....and we have the Sangha too....... "an incomparable field of merit for the world"

The buddha talked about other realms as if they are real...not just mind states or illusory

[fabianfred]

It talks about an infinite past lineage.

Is this due to the difficulty of escape from animal the form?

Is the climb to enlightenment far less than infinite once we reach human form?

If you must endure virtually an infinite number of re births before attaining enlightenment isn't this as good as never attaining this goal?

The effort and time required must be enormous.

since the past and future are infinite, a gradual improvement until eventually reaching enlightenment, is impossible....otherwise all beings would have got there already

no being reaches nirvana by accident...only by effort (once the correct path is known)

there is no gradual passing through the animal realm until reaching the human realm.....

when we do not know the dhamma we are like the passenger sitting in the raer seat of a car.....with no driver....going here and there.....up and down....from rebirths in the higher realms to human to lower realms and back again...at the mercy of our karma

Once we have the true dhamma and start to practise it will a real aim to get to nirvana....it is as if we have reached out and grabbed hold of the steering wheel and are able to influence the direction we are going .

[fabianfred]

Since other beliefs have no knowledge of Nirvana nor the path to get there they can hardly aim for something they know nothing about....

Those beliefs with heaven as their goal can get there.... its not going to be the forever they expect however...

Good post, I love you discussions.

Here's the problem I have with your comment. Forget, for a moment, religions. Think individual. An individual may be fully aware of nirvanna (etc.). What if he decides that he doesn't want to achieve nirvanna in this lifetime? Isn't that possible?

Your comments about heaven. You don't KNOW that. You THINK that. You have FAITH in your view.

I look at it as searching for the truth, and we won't know the truth until it is too late to do anything about it (in this life, at least).

I look forward to your comments.

Many ordinary Thais have a vague or shallow understanding of nirvana and how to reach it....most think it is only for monks or that we must do much merit and some time in the future we will get there......incorrect.

One who knows of the existence of nirvana and chooses not to go there probably has an incorrect understanding of what nirvana is and why we should try to reach it.

It isn't simply a question of not choosing to go there......even for those who want to reach it....it is a difficult task....requiring constant effort.

All personal experience from meditation....or life....cannot easily be shown to others....nor provided as proof to them.

If i saw a UFO last night I couldn't prove it to anyone....maybe some would believe me...maybe not.

If I saw my past lives whilst meditating....I couldn't show this experience to others.... but for me I would have positive proof of the rebirth process. I wouldn't be able to prove it to others....they have to find their own proof.

The lazy would just sit back and say "I don't believe you...you prove it to me"

impossible...... until they get off their lazy backsides and start to practice for themselves they will never know anything....and they will be stuck in samsara for a very long time.

The buddha could only help a few beings....many were not interested in listening to him.

Reaching nirvana within a single lifetime is extremely difficult....better to set ourselves a more reachable task.....stream-entry.....as this can certainly be attained within this lifetime.......(as long as you're not lazy)

[agent69]

hmm, too difficult? The problem is that, in our next lives, we might just say to ourselves the same thing again and again, "It's too difficult in this life time". It's like having gold fish memory.

I used to think that it is difficult to be a monk ... a good monk that is. It seemed to me that eight or ten precepts were just too difficult to maintain, let alone 227. But once I put my mind into it, it was not that difficult at all.

I would say getting to Nirvana would not be difficult if someone put their mind into it. The instructions are there for them to follow. Knowing that they would get there would need some practicing. Come to think of it, what have we got to lose by following the Buddha's footsteps?

[camerata]

Is this plausible & recognized as Buddhist teaching?

It talks about an infinite past lineage.

Is this due to the difficulty of escape from animal the form?

Is the climb to enlightenment far less than infinite once we reach human form?

If you must endure virtually an infinite number of re births before attaining enlightenment isn't this as good as never attaining this goal?

The effort and time required must be enormous.

As with so many things in the Pali Canon, it isn't made clear. You have to wonder why, in 45 years of teaching, no one ever asked the Buddha if animals create kamma. Or did they ask and the answer was lost? It all seems to come down to the meaning of intent. Clearly a tiger intends to kill its prey, but does that represent kamma or is it just an automaton doing what it's programmed to do. It doesn't seem to have any choice in the matter. If there's no choice, can there really be intent? Anyway, it seems to have little relevance to humans trying to attain nibbana.

"Infinite past lineage" just means the Buddha couldn't see any beginning to samsara and the round of rebirths. He did see an end to it, of course.

You don't have to endure an infinite number of rebirths to attain nibbana. But you obviously need some human rebirths, and in one of those you have to start practising the Dhamma.

I've always wondered if the Buddha was surprised when he discovered nibbana. He was looking for a way out of suffering for all beings, but he didn't exactly know what it would be like. When he found it, it was pretty radical: you have to "kill off" your own identity and give up all thoughts of immortality. Not only that, but it's extremely difficult to do and not that many people are interested. In his own time, most of his known disciples were brahmins and townspeople - the well-off, educated elite - rather than rural villagers.

In Karen Armstrong's book Buddha she claims that at that time Indians were horrified at the idea of experiencing death multiple times (as opposed to living in suffering multiple times) and this was the reason the Buddha wanted to find an exit from samsara. But her intention was to show the Buddha as "a man of his times" (specifically the Axial Age) and the claim doesn't fit with the Four Noble Truths and the idea that all existence involves suffering.

[rockyysdt]

As with so many things in the Pali Canon, it isn't made clear. It doesn't seem to have any choice in the matter. If there's no choice, can there really be intent? Anyway, it seems to have little relevance to humans trying to attain nibbana.

It would have been nice to have an answer as it would help explain the increased number of individual cittas given the exponential growth in world population.

[rockyysdt]

It isn't simply a question of not choosing to go there......even for those who want to reach it....it is a difficult task....requiring constant effort.

The lazy would just sit back and say "I don't believe you...you prove it to me"

impossible...... until they get off their lazy backsides and start to practice for themselves they will never know anything....and they will be stuck in samsara for a very long time.

Reaching nirvana within a single lifetime is extremely difficult....better to set ourselves a more reachable task.....stream-entry.....as this can certainly be attained within this lifetime.......(as long as you're not lazy)

Judging by your description of effort required, I suspect it's not so much laziness but lack of "belief".

You must have a certain amount of belief before dedicating your life, especially if you must wait for first hand experience before you can establish its validity.

I'd say most who practice the dhamma have this belief.

[fabianfred]

As with so many things in the Pali Canon, it isn't made clear. It doesn't seem to have any choice in the matter. If there's no choice, can there really be intent? Anyway, it seems to have little relevance to humans trying to attain nibbana.

It would have been nice to have an answer as it would help explain the increased number of individual cittas given the exponential growth in world population.

the number of cittas is probably constant....just that more are taking rebirth in the human realm right now..... a natural cycle perhaps reaching its high point...... whereas the low point will be reached after the 'seven days of killing madness' period.... when the human life-span reaches its low point of ten years.

[phetaroi]

Many ordinary Thais have a vague or shallow understanding of nirvana and how to reach it....most think it is only for monks or that we must do much merit and some time in the future we will get there......incorrect.

Very good observation, and one that is probably true for most religions. I remember how my grandparents followed Catholicism and all its rites, yet had a very limited understanding of the Church and its deeper beliefs.

One who knows of the existence of nirvana and chooses not to go there probably has an incorrect understanding of what nirvana is and why we should try to reach it. It isn't simply a question of not choosing to go there......even for those who want to reach it....it is a difficult task....requiring constant effort.

Perhaps true. But, if you are living a wonderfully happy and fulfilling life, why would you want to "escape" life?

All personal experience from meditation....or life....cannot easily be shown to others....nor provided as proof to them. If i saw a UFO last night I couldn't prove it to anyone....maybe some would believe me...maybe not. If I saw my past lives whilst meditating....I couldn't show this experience to others.... but for me I would have positive proof of the rebirth process. I wouldn't be able to prove it to others....they have to find their own proof. The lazy would just sit back and say "I don't believe you...you prove it to me"

impossible...... until they get off their lazy backsides and start to practice for themselves they will never know anything....and they will be stuck in samsara for a very long time. The buddha could only help a few beings....many were not interested in listening to him.

I agree with much of what you wrote here...until you attribute seeking proof as being "lazy". Perhaps it's not the most pro-active approach, but I wouldn't say that seeking the truth is being lazy. And, what complicates this even more is that people with other belief systems have no reason to belief Buddhist beliefs.